Unlikely Vietnam Considers Gay Marriage

[endure]

I wish the UK was full of gay activists. Just think - we'd have to wait till 2003 before homosexuality was decriminalised rather than it happening in 1967. We'd still be waiting for any form of same sex legal partnerships.

[Jingthing]

I wish the UK was full of gay activists. Just think - we'd have to wait till 2003 before homosexuality was decriminalised rather than it happening in 1967. We'd still be waiting for any form of same sex legal partnerships.

Your logic is flawed. The UK and the USA are entirely different countries. You should be glad of your system and open minded enough to realize gay activists ARE required to get things moving in MOST other countries. Edited August 8, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

I wish the UK was full of gay activists. Just think - we'd have to wait till 2003 before homosexuality was decriminalised rather than it happening in 1967. We'd still be waiting for any form of same sex legal partnerships.

Your logic is flawed. The UK and the USA are entirely different countries. You should be glad of your system and open minded enough to realize gay activists ARE required to get things moving in MOST other countries.

Thailand and the USA are different countries but you seem to think that Thailand needs the same kind of activism that (doesn't) work in the USA. They don't. They'll work things out in their own way without interference from a system of activism (is that a word?) that hasn't been full of roaring successes so far.

[LeCharivari]

Contrary to what was implied above, same sex marriage is not legal under the laws of Buddhist dominated Thailand.

I doubt if any intelligent person, or any child with the ability to read English, would have read any such implication into what I wrote.

[LeCharivari]

I wish the UK was full of gay activists. Just think - we'd have to wait till 2003 before homosexuality was decriminalised rather than it happening in 1967. We'd still be waiting for any form of same sex legal partnerships.

Your logic is flawed. The UK and the USA are entirely different countries. You should be glad of your system and open minded enough to realize gay activists ARE required to get things moving in MOST other countries.

Thailand and the USA are different countries but you seem to think that Thailand needs the same kind of activism that (doesn't) work in the USA. They don't. They'll work things out in their own way without interference from a system of activism (is that a word?) that hasn't been full of roaring successes so far.

Unfortunately JT does appear to be representative of those particular types of "activists" who think that whether something is "true or not ... doesn't really matter" and all that matters is what is "represented" by "popular imagination"*. Fortunately for the rest of the world those "activists" who specialize in spin and annoying people to get their message across, Fox News style, are predominantly an American phenomenon.

The Thai "gay activists" have the intelligence to realize that alienating people doesn't work and to learn from their mistakes, as evidenced by Anjana Suvarnananda's readiness to modify the wording in her draft amendment to the Constitution so that it was passed at the second reading, only to be rejected on a technicality. Maybe the American "gay activists" should be learning from their Thai counterparts, rather than the other way around.

* http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/571690-remembering-a-german-gay-civil-rights-pioneer-karl-ulrichs/page__st__25

[LeCharivari]

..... gay activists ARE required to get things moving in MOST other countries.

Maybe you could NAME those "other countries" where "gay activists" can be identified as having had any positive and direct effect on civil/gay rights legislation?

Maybe not .....

In case facts are beyond you, I'll help you out by starting you off with Stonewall UK's getting legislation passed to allow gays to serve openly in the UK military.

[LeCharivari]

... Where did you get the prediction that religious zealots will push back, rather then conservative minds? ....

From his now legendary "imagination".

[LeCharivari]

^ Not sure what you want to say. First you say that the Dalai Lama has little if any influence on Buddhism in Thailand, then you say he preaches to use the "missionary" position only. That's something he would not know anything about IMHO, but then, it has no impact on Thailand anyway.

So, what exactly was your point?

Two points: (1) "the Dalai Lama has little relevance to Buddhism in Thailand" and (2) " He (the Dalai Lama) has made it very clear, repeatedly, that there is NOTHING wrong either in his view or according to Buddhist teachings with homosexuality".

If that's beyond you there's little point in my trying to explain why, to take an extreme but simple example, you don't have to have tried serial killing to be entitled to an opinion about whether it is right or wrong.

[isanbirder]

Firstly, this thread is about Vietnam. Perhaps the news is not so surprising, as Vietnam allows British consulates to register civil partnerships while Thailand does not.

<p>Secondly, I cannot see why there is all this argument about Thai Buddhism's attitude to homosexuality. The temples are full of it. Perhaps what they do is more important than what they say, whichever that may be.

Edited August 9, 2012 by isanbirder

[LeCharivari]

Firstly, this thread is about Vietnam. ....

Quite right, IB, and I apologise for being drawn into playing JT's "gay activists in every thread" game. I've re-posted my question in the Gay Activists thread, where it should be.

[onthemoon]

^ Not sure what you want to say. First you say that the Dalai Lama has little if any influence on Buddhism in Thailand, then you say he preaches to use the "missionary" position only. That's something he would not know anything about IMHO, but then, it has no impact on Thailand anyway.

So, what exactly was your point?

Two points: (1) "the Dalai Lama has little relevance to Buddhism in Thailand" and (2) " He (the Dalai Lama) has made it very clear, repeatedly, that there is NOTHING wrong either in his view or according to Buddhist teachings with homosexuality".

If that's beyond you there's little point in my trying to explain why, to take an extreme but simple example, you don't have to have tried serial killing to be entitled to an opinion about whether it is right or wrong.

Extreme comparison, and not a valid one. If you kill someone, you actually hurt them - if you use certain sexual practices consensually, you don't hurt anybody.

The Dalai Lama is no authority over here, as you say. So what does it matter anyway what he thinks.

[LeCharivari]

The issue has remained largely off the table across Asia. In Thailand, many tourists see a vibrant gay, lesbian and transgender community, but it exists largely as part of the country’s lucrative entertainment industry, separated from politics and conservative Thai society.

(from the original article/post)

I know this keeps coming up regularly, and its not really off-topic as it was in the original article, but I am still at a loss as to why anyone with any genuine experience here says this.

Yes, LGBT are "separated from politics and conservative Thai society" as LGBT has never been a political issue in Thailand and "conservative" society anywhere is just that: conservative .... and yes, Thailand does have some way to go as far as formal legislation rather than actual integration is concerned ....

..... BUT the idea that LGBT are just "largely ... part of the country's lucrative entertainment industry" is simply nonsense. LGBT do make up an unusually large part of the "legitimate" entertainment industry (movies, TV, cabaret, comedy, etc) in comparison to other countries, as well as the rather less "legitimate" night-life, but that's still a very small proportion of the LGBT population and LGBT are a perfectly normal and accepted part of everyday life throughout Thailand.

Even in my small village LGBT are just what people are, rather like someone in the West having ginger hair, and they're certainly not ostracised because of that. One drives the local ice truck, one has a large coconut plantation, one runs a mini-mart with his parents. The local glazier's daughter's a Tom and his son's gay; none, surprisingly, have beauty/hair salons although my partner occasionally helps out in one. My local doctor/GP's clinic is packed every day and he makes the late Danny La Rue look like Hulk Hogan. When we went to our small local temple for Khao Phansa last week I noticed two brothers adding their food to the monks' trays, along with everyone else: the younger one, aged about 9 or 10, was wearing an off-the -shoulder cream blouse, while his elder brother, aged about 14 or 15, was wearing a rather more racy red number with a black bra - nobody could have cared less.

Wider afield at least four of the police staff at the Chonburi Immigration Office are gay. My first bank manager here was gay. One of my gay friends is a vet, another a Special Colonel (Brigadier) in the Police. Go to any concert in a Thai village and there'll always be a crowd of kathoeys enjoying themselves in front of the stage and the next day they'll be back planting rice or driving the Kubota just like anyone else.

Thailand may not quite be the utopia for LGBT some people think it is but generally speaking it would be hard, despite the lack of legislation, to find somewhere where there is more integration and acceptance.

[MrRealDeal]

The main reason Thailand doesn't have Gay marriage is because GAY Thai people don't care enough to make it an issue , and since gay Thai people don't seem to care very much neither does anyone else. The only people who seem to care on this website about Thai gay marriage are westerners for example.

Thai people don't care much about a lot of things and Gay marriage is just another item on the list.

What is really stopping it is that no one cares about anything around here not that it's some big burning issue everyone cares about but can't be implemented because of politics OR Religion , the reason is the same as why there is so much litter around ...... no one cares about much of anything except makling sure the culture of not careing stays in place !

[isanbirder]

The main reason Thailand doesn't have Gay marriage is because GAY Thai people don't care enough to make it an issue , and since gay Thai people don't seem to care very much neither does anyone else. The only people who seem to care on this website about Thai gay marriage are westerners for example.

Thai people don't care much about a lot of things and Gay marriage is just another item on the list.

What is really stopping it is that no one cares about anything around here not that it's some big burning issue everyone cares about but can't be implemented because of politics OR Religion , the reason is the same as why there is so much litter around ...... no one cares about much of anything except makling sure the culture of not careing stays in place !

It will happen here... but probably as a reaction to neighbouring countries having it. Vietnam on the way... then Cambodia, Singapore.... hey, like we don't want to be left out!

[Jingthing]

I agree Thailand needs more and better focused/organized gay advocates. That is, if they actually care about gay equality legal issues. If they don't, they shouldn't bother. It doesn't just magically happen. I think the Thai gay rights movement has been kind of twisted by the transgender rights movement here. The activists, public and even government can't seem to get that all straight. I'd say they need an outside consultant to get more focused, perhaps a gay activist legal expert from Latin America?

I agree when some other Asean countries make some changes, that will provide some pressure on Thailand to not be so backwards compared to their neighbors.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

I agree Thailand needs more and better focused/organized gay advocates. That is, if they actually care about gay equality legal issues. If they don't, they shouldn't bother. It doesn't just magically happen. I think the Thai gay rights movement has been kind of twisted by the transgender rights movement here. The activists, public and even government can't seem to get that all straight. I'd say they need an outside consultant to get more focused, perhaps a gay activist legal expert from Latin America?

I agree when some other Asean countries make some changes, that will provide some pressure on Thailand to not be so backwards compared to their neighbors.

Agreed, JT, but it will have to be done in a Thai way. The powers that be are very touchy about foreign interference!

[LeCharivari]

...... What is really stopping it is that no one cares about anything around here not that it's some big burning issue everyone cares about but can't be implemented because of politics OR Religion , the reason is the same as why there is so much litter around ...... no one cares about much of anything except makling sure the culture of not careing stays in place !

Maybe you blinked and missed the various red/yellow/blue shirt demos, etc, which indicate that Thais do "care" about some things very strongly. Marriage (and gay marriage) just don't happen to be important to most Thais, gay or straight.

[LeCharivari]

..... if you use certain sexual practices consensually, you don't hurt anybody. ...

Tell that to David Carradine!

[onthemoon]

..... if you use certain sexual practices consensually, you don't hurt anybody. ...

Tell that to David Carradine!

If that was supposed to be a joke, it's tasteless. If you are serious, it was an accident.

But "consensual" I understand includes at least two people.

[LeCharivari]

What demonstrated the level of acceptance /integration of gays to me in Thailand, more than anything else, was what was not said to me or my Partner recently rather than what was said. When we were told about the newly arrived doctor in our area by two or three locals, separately, he was variously described as "young" (true - in his early 30's) and "not expensive" (also true - 3,000 baht for minor surgery, against 18,000 at Samitivej in SriRacha) but never as "gay" (which is immediately obvious). Anywhere else and it would have been one of the first things mentioned, whether it was derogatory or just descriptive, but here it just wasn't worth mentioning.