Is There A Rational Basis To The Idea Of Karma?

[Several]

@ Leolibby, you weren't reading those elfin love poems to your dog too were you?

[rockyysdt]

Its is cause and effect and it is the intention that counts. Associated emotion gives 'colour' to the resulting Kamma. Buddha suffered headaches because in a previous life he liked to watch his father, a fisherman, kill fish by smashing their heads against the deck of the boat. This vicarious enjoyment produced a kammic debt. Being enlightened he didn't concern himself with the suffering and did nothing to prevent it as he had to pay. So yes I'm saying intent is the important factor.

Kama [Pali, Sanskrit]: meaning = Sexual desire, sensuality.

Karma [Pali, Sanskrit]: meaning = Action or doing.

Karma in Buddhism normally associated with Vipaka.

Karma - Vipaka

Action - Consequence or Fruits of Action.

Edited August 2, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

In my opinion Karma is a very important part of Buddhism.

The Buddha teaches us how to escape the prison of life (Samsara) by reaching Nibbana.

It is therefore very useful; for us to understand about the prison, why it is necessary to escape it, and why we are reborn there in various realms and forms.

It is karma which causes us to be reborn in any of the 31 realms.

Although karma and reincarnation were known about in the Brahmin religion, they were misunderstood, as they still are in modern Hinduism.

The Buddha corrected these by teaching the truth about karma and rebirth.

Also one of the most important aspects of karma which is often unknown or not taught, is death-proximate karma. This is the mind-state at the moment of death, and this can override the weight of habitual karma created during this lifetime. So even if you lead a good moral life and make much merit, you can still be reborn in unfortunate circumstances (the four lower realms) by dying whilst in a state of anger, hatred, greed, craving, ignorance or just a mind saddened by reflecting upon past bad deeds. Another reason suicide leads to bad rebirth....and another reason to practice meditation to be mindful and alert at the final moment...meditating if possible.

[fabianfred]

"Thesis: Karma is a meaningless superstition not supported by empiracle evidence.

.

There was a comment on this board claiming that If a man happened to be born in a hunter-gatherer society, it would be due to his "bad karma"? That explanation is a sorry attempt to explain why the man might have to hunt.... Who hoestly believes that?"

The very reason we have got this very foirtunate rebirth in the human realm is because of good karma from our past... so those who are born human and yet do not get the chance to meet Buddhism such as those born into other religions or areas which do not get the dhamma are also in that position becase they did not have sufficient good karma to do so. Those who do get to meet Buddhism and practice it are benefitting from their past good karma.

[fabianfred]

Events occur in life that lie outside Kamma too. A good person drowns in a flood, a bad one wins the lottery.

Have you ever thought that karma can be from a previous birth?

Of topic a bit but I've been asking several monks recently if bad karma can be erased by positive actions or 'tamboon'. Some say it can and some say that once you do something which is bad, it will always return, either in this life or a later one.

Most suffering we get in this life is a result of actions in past lives.

karma, good or bad, cannot be wiped out. It will surely bear fruit one day or one lifetime. The only way to get rid of it is either to use it up by suffering its debt in this lifetime, perhaps by practicing vipassana meditation.......or by escaping rebirth by reaching nibbana.

[Johnniey]

The very reason we have got this very foirtunate rebirth in the human realm is because of good karma from our past... so those who are born human and yet do not get the chance to meet Buddhism such as those born into other religions or areas which do not get the dhamma are also in that position becase they did not have sufficient good karma to do so. Those who do get to meet Buddhism and practice it are benefitting from their past good karma.

I believe that we can only be reborn in the human realm. Are beggars/cripples/kids with HIV etc fortunate?

I find it hard to think that Buddhists are the people with the best karma from a previous life. Are you saying all the other religions are wrong?

Those with great kamic credit can't be born Hindu, for example?

This is what all the other religions think.

Edited August 2, 2012 by camerata
Inflammatory personal remark deleted.

[Several]

Its is cause and effect and it is the intention that counts. Associated emotion gives 'colour' to the resulting Kamma. Buddha suffered headaches because in a previous life he liked to watch his father, a fisherman, kill fish by smashing their heads against the deck of the boat. This vicarious enjoyment produced a kammic debt. Being enlightened he didn't concern himself with the suffering and did nothing to prevent it as he had to pay. So yes I'm saying intent is the important factor.

Kama [Pali, Sanskrit]: meaning = Sexual desire, sensuality.

Karma [Pali, Sanskrit]: meaning = Action or doing.

Karma in Buddhism normally associated with Vipaka.

Karma - Vipaka

Action - Consequence or Fruits of Action.

Kamma is Pali, Karma is Sanskrit according to Pali English Dictionary.

[leolibby]

The very reason we have got this very foirtunate rebirth in the human realm is because of good karma from our past... so those who are born human and yet do not get the chance to meet Buddhism such as

There is simply no evidence that this is true; it is just metaphysical speculation. If wont even help anyone follow a Buddhist past to believe this. Am I to believe that Hitler, Stalin and Freddy Kruger were born human because of good karma from their past?

Buddhism was founded a long time ago, so why don't we see a decreasing population (more people escaping rebirth?)

Edited August 2, 2012 by leolibby

[camerata]

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

This has been debated to death by every Buddhist web board out there, but I've never seen or heard of any support for the idea of collective kamma in the Pali Canon. From what the Buddha said (another turtle story), it is incredibly difficult to be born in the human realm at all.

I recall Sharon Stone got lambasted when she insinuated that the Chinese earthquake victims suffered because of what their brethren have done to the Tibetans. But that made little sense given that many of the perpetrators are still alive or only died recently.

Having said that, the idea of "karmic bonds" is prevalent in literature and in "popular Buddhism."

[hookedondhamma]

edit* Happy Asalha Puja everyone! May this be an eventful Vassa for us all!!

Edited August 2, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[camerata]

There is simply no evidence that this is true; it is just metaphysical speculation

There doesn't have to be evidence. From the Buddhist perspective - and this is the Buddhist forum so that's the viewpoint we are interested in - kamma is an incredibly complex subject that the Buddha discovered upon his enlightenment and which only he can fully understand.

If you are interested in Buddhist kamma, start by reading Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching by Ven Payutto. It covers most of what we know about kamma from the Pali Canon.

[camerata]

Happy Asanha Bucha, HookedonDhamma. I did three circumambulations of the chedi, as usual.

[leolibby]

There doesn't have to be evidence.

I apologise. There isn't evidence for anything religious or supernatural. By the way, there have been lots of good people who weren't Buddhist...like Mother Teresa. It's so clear now: Buddhism is the best, only correct religion and anything in the Pali canon is Gospel.

Edited August 2, 2012 by leolibby

[fabianfred]

The very reason we have got this very foirtunate rebirth in the human realm is because of good karma from our past... so those who are born human and yet do not get the chance to meet Buddhism such as

There is simply no evidence that this is true; it is just metaphysical speculation. If wont even help anyone follow a Buddhist past to believe this. Am I to believe that Hitler, Stalin and Freddy Kruger were born human because of good karma from their past?

Buddhism was founded a long time ago, so why don't we see a decreasing population (more people escaping rebirth?)

The reason we do not see a decrease in population is due to two things...

1. The extreme rarity that a being escapes samsara to Nibbana (comparatively considering the number of beings there are.)

2. Beings are taking human rebirth from other realms....according to their karma.

There is never any evidence in spiritual matters which will satisfy those who only want to talk and look for an easier way to reach the goal. The goal, nibbana, is only available to those who make the effort to do the practice. All spiritual progress and wisdom which one attains by practice is personal and cannot be proved to anyone else...they have to do the work themselves.

Doubt is a great obstacle to practice.

[fabianfred]

The very reason we have got this very foirtunate rebirth in the human realm is because of good karma from our past... so those who are born human and yet do not get the chance to meet Buddhism such as those born into other religions or areas which do not get the dhamma are also in that position becase they did not have sufficient good karma to do so. Those who do get to meet Buddhism and practice it are benefitting from their past good karma.

I believe that we can only be reborn in the human realm. Are beggars/cripples/kids with HIV etc fortunate?

I find it hard to think that Buddhists are the people with the best karma from a previous life. Are you saying all the other religions are wrong?

Those with great kamic credit can't be born Hindu, for example?

This is what all the other religions think.

Beggars and cripples are fortunate to be born human....but are also paying off past karma. A cripple in Thailand has a chance to hear and practice the dhamma...so he is better off than a healthy person who doesn't. Even a blind person could make great spiritual progress with the right teacher.

Other religions are not wrong....but they do not know therfore do not teach the truth about nibbana, rebirth, karma, and how to escape samsara. They are incomplete.

[fabianfred]

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

This has been debated to death by every Buddhist web board out there, but I've never seen or heard of any support for the idea of collective kamma in the Pali Canon. From what the Buddha said (another turtle story), it is incredibly difficult to be born in the human realm at all.

I recall Sharon Stone got lambasted when she insinuated that the Chinese earthquake victims suffered because of what their brethren have done to the Tibetans. But that made little sense given that many of the perpetrators are still alive or only died recently.

Having said that, the idea of "karmic bonds" is prevalent in literature and in "popular Buddhism."

Karmic bonds is very real. Those who enter a relationship, whether marrying or not, have usually created karma together in a past existence. If good karma, then a good relationship ensues, but if bad then much suffering is a result...until the karma is used up.

My teacher Luang Por Jaran tells many stories from his own past experiences about the workings of the law of karma.

Once he was travelling on an airpane and told the layperson he was with that all the staff on the plane would die in a few days time when the plane crashed. The lay person said they should warn them about it but he said they wouldn't listen. Sure enough she tried to tell one of the stewardesses that the plane would crash in a few days but was treated like an idiot. L.P. said that there was nothing which could be done. A few days later it crashed and he said that all those people who died had created karma together and had to die together as a result.

It is easy to imagine groups of people who create karma together...such as the platoon of US troops at MaiLai massacre in Vietnam.... groups of soldiers commiting atrocities together etc.

So group karma is real....and even Nations can create karma which can bring an effect later. The US has caused much suffering around the world since WW2 by their domineering attitude and especially by their private army...the CIA. Their time will come, just as the japanese nation will suffer for their part in WW2...

[leolibby]

just as the japanese nation will suffer for their part in WW2...

Wow, you really have a talent for seeing negative things.

[leolibby]

The goal, nibbana,

What makes nibbana desirable?

[leolibby]

Other religions are not wrong....but they do not know therfore do not teach the truth about nibbana, rebirth, karma, and how to escape samsara. They are incomplete.

Incomplete from a Buddhist perspective. People of other religions plus athiests don't care about nibbana.. it is not desirable. I can't speak for every religion though. Let me ask: Is Buddhism to you an objective, almost scientific fact? or is there faith at some level?

Edited August 3, 2012 by leolibby

[IMA_FARANG]

Two good posts there rockyysdt.

As you mentioned at the time Buddha taught the influence from Brahmism was high.

"Reincarnation" ....actual rebirth of the human as another being...whether animal or another person....was taken as a fact by many.

That idea of actual reincarnation was tied up in the popular religious philosophy with kamma (aka karma) for many people.

So if the (current) You did "bad things" then the (next rebirth) You would suffer for those "bad things".

That mistaken idea of actual physical reincarnation of a You is still taken by many to be "part of Budhisim".

My personal opinion is that it isn't...and it never was.

But it was taken as that by some people who misunderstood what the Buddha meant....and therefore assumed he was talking about actual physical reincarnation of that You entity.

Reincarnation was as close as they could get to understanding the concept of rebirth....so rebirth = reincarnation is what they heard him say,

But I don't want to reopen the rather pointless great rebirth/reincarnation debate.

Anyway....trying to "prove" the truth of kamma by logic is impossible....because even if it could be proved...only those who were willing to listen to that proof could be convinced anyhow. Sadly, to many people don't want to listen...their mind is already made up.

It's like the story of the intelligent fish that lived in the sea.

This fish heard wonderful stories about the Great Ocean that was the source of life for all fishes.

So he went to look for that Great Ocean.

He swam around and around...searching everywhere in his sea....but he never found that Great Ocean.

[leolibby]

Reincarnation was as close as they could get to understanding the concept of rebirth....so rebirth = reincarnation is what they heard him say,

That seems likely. if reincarnation is literal, then why can't we all remember our past lives? (and learn from our mistakes).. yet Buddha remembered all his past lives when he became enlightened.... why? Is it like if you complete all the levels in a video game, you get magic powers?

It's like the story of the intelligent fish that lived in the sea.

This fish heard wonderful stories about the Great Ocean that was the source of life for all fishes.

So he went to look for that Great Ocean.

He swam around and around...searching everywhere in his sea....but he never found that Great Ocean.

We have established that a belief in karma does not help anyone on a spiritual path... it is just a way to explain (usually) misfortune. Plane crashes, WWII atrocities, Buddha's headaches... that's all negative. Karma probably started out as a way to frighten children into behaving... like "if you keep self-gratifying yourself, you'll go blind."

Edited August 3, 2012 by leolibby

[sabaijai]

leolibby, yes, Buddhism is very much about faith. Objective reality is only the teaser.

Just so we don't waste your time unnecessarily, I suggest you re-read the posting guidelines.

http://www.thaivisa....ing-guidelines/

[leolibby]

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

Interesting idea... one problem is ambiguity. Our dualistic brains try to categorize things as either black or white, good or bad. Dying in a flood might be good.... what if it causes your brother to become a great singer? any event might be a mixture of good and bad karma... were the september 11 victims part of some group karma? I heard on Art Bell that they were--- but it was good karma. what about that vietnamese monk who set himself on fire? was he trying to be a martyr, or was it karma? it was suicide.... but i think in vietnam he's considered to be awakened.

[sabaijai]

Origins Of Karma

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/546188-origins-of-karma/page__hl__%20karma

Nibbana Dilemma – Is It Worth It?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/451310-nibbana-dilemma-is-it-worth-it/page__hl__karma#entry4292348

[leolibby]

leolibby, yes, Buddhism is very much about faith. Objective reality is only the teaser.

ahhh. I dont think I "know" more or am wiser. Part of it is an aggressive communication style... it's a debate for me: who can produce the most coherent argument. Even if I appear hostile, I'm not.

However, if people can't accept their precious ideas being attacked or questioned, perhaps I shouldn't post.

Edited August 3, 2012 by leolibby

[hookedondhamma]

leolibby, yes, Buddhism is very much about faith. Objective reality is only the teaser.

ahhh. I dont think I "know" more or am wiser. Part of it is an aggressive communication style... it's a debate for me: who can produce the most coherent argument. Even if I appear hostile, I'm not.

However, if people can't accept their precious ideas being attacked or questioned, perhaps I shouldn't post.

I just don't get you, LeoLibby. What are you in this forum for? I understand the questions asked. But normally it's a good idea to get an answer, or dismiss the question all-together if one unsatisfactory is obtained, then go ahead and make a new one. But to open question after question after question, which somehow seem to lead in endless circles - where is the benefit in that?

Many of your replies come across not as aggressive, but sarcastic, making much of what you write decrease in value.

The neat thing about this forum is the compassion shown towards many of the content that is posted here.

If you like heated debate why not take a look into the General forum. Buddhists aren't missionaries who force their beliefs down others' throats. As another member on here said, much of what we practice is practiced edit* do --> due to experience. Is it evident already that you more than likely are not going to find the answer you're looking for? Isn't your mind already made up to a degree? Buddhism requires one to get outside of their box and taking something head on to realize it for himself. You gain nothing by trying to learn off of the direct experience of others.

I don't know what base you are posting from, but I sure do hope everything is ok with you, and if it isn't, I hope things get better.

And on another note, Happy Kao Pansaa everyone!

Edited August 3, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[leolibby]

Ahh, well to stay on-topic, i'll try to relate this to Buddhism. first of all, Ive been intrigued by Buddhism, perhaps my whole life. I used to consider myself spiritual.. I used to have out-of-body experiences.. (well, almost). I also have had clarivoyant experiences. It is only recently that I find myself rejecting all notions oF the supernatural or spiritual. Maybe it's because of my disability.. a genetically induced neurological degenerative disorder (like parkinsons or huntingtons) except one with no treatment. I'm angry that a long, productive life is being taken away from me.

Anyway, I am extremely not aggressive in real-life.. I have a very soft voice, and I'm a small guy, just 110 pounds. When I get on an internet forum, I can be as big and agressive as I want. I came t here to ask about Sak- yant tatoos... I also asked in the Phuket forum, where in phuket I could get one. I was eaten alive.

Edited August 3, 2012 by leolibby

[ddpffft]

for me karma are the challenges we experience in life...

you will find, that some people consider a certain event as completely devastating, while others just shrug it off...

so, what a "challenge" is, is much up of the "person"...

buddhism has lost me, when they "declare" that being handicapped (e.g.) stems from a "bad karma", suggesting that a handicapped person must have done bad in a previous life...

or the parents of handicapped children are considered to be "punished" - this is also prevalent in monotheism...

therefore - one would conclude - that a rich, wealthy, beautiful person must have done very very well, and so is "rewarded" with "good karma"...

this logic doesnt add up in the slightest and tiniest bit of it...

some religions, i think it was in some "secret books" of judaism, say, that WE choose our karma - the challenges we will have to experience and to master... i think the religions explain it with "the family we are born into" or so...

i believe, a person who suffers from a life threatening disease, gets very ill, is bound to a wheelchair (etc) is facing high challenges, and that - because they are able to...

they are able to, because their soul/karma has developed very far already...

you are given the sort of challenges you can master - and you will need all your strength for it...

though, some people might have taken on too much, and they commit suicide...

therefore, people with an easy-peasy life are not capable of mastering much, thats why they get only such douche-bag-challenges for life...

this theory has also supporters within astrology i think...

look at the buddhist countries and their derivates (india...)...

there, they consider wealthy pretty people as having good karma, as good people...

in thailand, the school book said, the farang who "was poor and ugly"...

thats the way buddhist countries categorize people - after material standards... good karma, eh?

Edited August 3, 2012 by ddpffft

[leolibby]

buddhism has lost me, when they "declare" that being handicapped (e.g.) stems from a "bad karma", suggesting that a handicapped person must have done bad in a previous life...

I am also lost on that point.. and one reason I started this thread was to address it.

therefore, people with an easy-peasy life are not capable of mastering much, thats why they get only such douche-bag-challenges for life...

That's why it is said we can only acieve nibbana in the human realm.. not the deva realm.

[Several]

Kamma is very complex, like the butterfly effect in chaos theory. Some talented individuals can perceive the kammic 'equation' that lead up to where the individual is now and even predict future events to a degree, as in the post about the plane crash. To use a game of cards as an analogy, Kamma is the cards you are dealt. Some people can count cards and appear to have a miraculous power. Your hand may seem good or bad depending on a dualistic view (debilitating disease, uber rich family, good looks etc), but are in fact neither. The way you play is up to you (confident, bluffing, throwing in your hand) and when the cards are returned to the deck this determines the next round of Kamma. Or so it seems.