Origins Of Karma

[jmdf103]

was just laying in bed philosophising, and felt the need to share my thoughts.

Very few organisms on earth today are conscious that they are alive, higher apes for example. Put lower organisms in front of a mirror and they they are not able to realise it is themself. Biological robots more or less.

At some point in the evolution of life, the realisation of being alive must have dawned on that first organism. Before this there could not have been good or evil because to do a good or bad deed requires intention, which can only be the thought of a conscious being.

So i conclude that before this there could not have been any karma? Any thoughts?

thanks

[rockyysdt]

It depends on which theory you subscribe to.

For example, some are of the view that the universe (everything) never had a beginning and will never have an end.

That the universe may go through cycles with cataclysms punctuating each of these.

This would mean that life forms in the era you refer to (life without awareness) is a phase which had a previous origin with awareness.

To be sporned through the process of re birth as a lifeform without awareness might be the result of much Kharma.

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[jmdf103]

It depends on which theory you subscribe to.

For example, some are of the view that the universe (everything) never had a beginning and will never have an end.

That the universe may go through cycles with cataclysms punctuating each of these.

This would mean that life forms in the era you refer to (life without awareness) is a phase which had a previous origin with awareness.

To be sporned through the process of re birth as a lifeform without awareness might be the result of much Kharma.

i guess you are referring to the theory that universe is in a continuous cycle of bigbang, expansion, retraction, big crunch. Surely in the singularity conditions present at big bang/crunch where time and space do not exist (such as in a black hole), then in these conditions surely it is impossible for karma to have been communicated from previous cycles of crunch/bang.

In any case, the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion.

Edited April 7, 2012 by jmdf103

[huli]

It depends on which theory you subscribe to.

For example, some are of the view that the universe (everything) never had a beginning and will never have an end.

That the universe may go through cycles with cataclysms punctuating each of these.

This would mean that life forms in the era you refer to (life without awareness) is a phase which had a previous origin with awareness.

To be sporned through the process of re birth as a lifeform without awareness might be the result of much Kharma.

i guess you are referring to the theory that universe is in a continuous cycle of bigbang, expansion, retraction, big crunch. Surely in the singularity conditions present at big bang/crunch where time and space do not exist (such as in a black hole), then in these conditions surely it is impossible for karma to have been communicated from previous cycles of crunch/bang.

In any case, the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion.

It seems reasonable to speculate that there was no karma, as we define it, operating in the universe prior to the emergence of self-aware organisms with intention. However, potential karma was probably inherent in the universe from the beginning, as was the emergence of life forms, etc.

I am surprised to see you write that "the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion." I believe the expansion of the universe has been slowing right along, and there still exists doubt about it's ultimate fate, largely because of all the dark matter. May I ask, where did you get this idea?

[rockyysdt]

It depends on which theory you subscribe to.

For example, some are of the view that the universe (everything) never had a beginning and will never have an end.

That the universe may go through cycles with cataclysms punctuating each of these.

This would mean that life forms in the era you refer to (life without awareness) is a phase which had a previous origin with awareness.

To be sporned through the process of re birth as a lifeform without awareness might be the result of much Kharma.

i guess you are referring to the theory that universe is in a continuous cycle of bigbang, expansion, retraction, big crunch. Surely in the singularity conditions present at big bang/crunch where time and space do not exist (such as in a black hole), then in these conditions surely it is impossible for karma to have been communicated from previous cycles of crunch/bang.

In any case, the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion.

It seems reasonable to speculate that there was no karma, as we define it, operating in the universe prior to the emergence of self-aware organisms with intention. However, potential karma was probably inherent in the universe from the beginning, as was the emergence of life forms, etc.

I am surprised to see you write that "the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion." I believe the expansion of the universe has been slowing right along, and there still exists doubt about it's ultimate fate, largely because of all the dark matter. May I ask, where did you get this idea?

Hi Huli.

I was of the understanding that the universe's expansion is accelerating at the moment.

What this may suggest, I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia....rating_universe

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[ericsamadhi]

Let's first get clear on the word KARMA. It means Actions. It is best described in the west by Newtons 3 laws of action. Religions have changed the meaning to make money...now you suffer because of previous bad actions. You can give us money, which is a good action, and good things will come to you in the future. For the business of Buddhism, they need Good and Bad to get money from you. But it is almost impossible now to understand the laws of action, because all the authorities in Buddhism and religions are businesses wanting money, so they universally talk non-sense, and we common people are supposed to just believe and give money.

Here is an example of real karma and the illogical religious karma. Some of you may understand. A pool player moves his arm and his power moves the pool stick. The stick hits the white ball. The action is karma, Action and movement. The arm moves the stick moving the white ball. This is the first law: for each Action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I move arm, the stick moves, then the white ball hits an object ball and it goes into a pocket. This is real karma, the law of Action. The business of religion has convinced you of a theory that this karma action has good and bad which will come and get you! and you need them to save you...just pay some money

The reality is that object ball is never going to jump out of the pocket, hit the white ball, which hits your stick and jerks your arm back. But this is their karma teachings. And most people are already trained that there is retribution for your bad actions. And giving money has good consequences. But when you win the lotto, nobody says it was your good karma. They say you were lucky.

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[fabianfred]

Your theory is expanding universe...mine is oscillating..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillating_universe

As has been said...karma means action. An unskillful action creates suffering and therefore naturally eventually bears fruit as vipaka and suffering to the creator. Skillful action is positive in nature and causes happiness which in turn leads to vipaka as a more favourable rebirth or pleasant things happening to the creator (of the karma).

Karma follows each being which creates it, like a cart follows a horse, and will inevitably bring its own fruit (vipaka). Karma is what causes rebirth, in whichever realm or situation a being is reborn into. Karma created by a being will follow it for many many aeons until it is used up and expended, but since karma is also being created all the time, fresh karma is always creating the cause for future rebirths and suffering or pleasure.

A being such as an ant or mosquito is still considered sentient by Buddhism. It is suffering in the animal realm and using up the karma which caused its rebirth there, and whilst there it has little chance to create any good karma, but can still cause suffering and create more bad karma. (good=positive=skillful..... bad=negative=unskillful.)

[rockyysdt]

The reality is that object ball is never going to jump out of the pocket, hit the white ball, which hits your stick and jerks your arm back. But this is their karma teachings. And most people are already trained that there is retribution for your bad actions. And giving money has good consequences. But when you win the lotto, nobody says it was your good karma. They say you were lucky.

If there are those who twist the teachings of a religion or practice in order to profit, does this diminish the original practice or teachings?

As Fred has indicated, the word Kharma is frequently misused as meaning destiny due to past indiscretions.

Kharma is action, as you say, but the consequences are the fruits of kharma (vipaka).

The severity of vipaka revolves around ones action and intention.

Giving money won't diminish vipaka.

Vipaka is either immediate or may take a long time to ripen.

Someone who smokes tobacco regularly may seem to get away with it, but eventually their aerobic fitness will die off, they may end up suffering from lung cancer or a number of other malignancies, but all will suffer from varying degrees if emphysema. These fruits of kharma will not only affect the owner of actions, but may also result in much suffering to that persons family.

Someone who regularly speeds and breaks traffic laws may eventually end up with a variety of kharmic fruit such as fines, disqualification, higher insurance costs, property loss through accident, injury or death.

Someone who regularly accepts bribes allowing a regular road law breaker to continue to drive may end up being indirectly responsible for a road death.

The subtleties of kharma are far to complex for the unawakened to ever fully know or understand.

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Your theory is expanding universe...mine is oscillating..

http://en.wikipedia....lating_universe

Nice answer Fred.

I thought the oscillating theory had weakened due to the rapidly expanding (accelerating) universe.

Won't matter spread so thinly that gravity will diminish to a point where the universe could never collapse back in on itself?

The oscillating theory does cater for the rhythm or recycling of life though.

[IMA_FARANG]

This gas nothing to do with the original topic but since you asked:

I am surprised to see you write that "the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion." I believe the expansion of the universe has been slowing right along, and there still exists doubt about it's ultimate fate, largely because of all the dark matter. May I ask, where did you get this idea?

-----------------------

What is being refered to is a theory known as "Dark Energy" which according to that theory is causing the expansion of the Universe to accelerate.

The latest measurements of the expansion of the Universe since the Big Bang about 13 billion years ago seem to show that somewhere about 5 or 6 billion years after the Big Bang the rate of expansion began to increase...and ithat acceleration is still continuing today.

If it is confirmed...and it's still being investigated (not all scientists agree with that theory) it means that sometime in the far future the Universe will expand until it tears itself apart in what has been called the Big Rip.

But it still needs more measurements to confirm if this is really happening ot not.

There are alternative theories.

So it's still an open question.

[ericsamadhi]

Yes. You are describing the belief's of Buddhism, that there is some cloud that follows us thru time delivering some unknown consequence to our actions. People trained with this belief are not going to drop the belief, even it makes no sense.

The western laws of Action make more sense. An action causing another action does not have a cloud following it, forcing some future retribution to the original action. There is inertia which is that what is in motion tends to stay in motion. So if you give money to a temple, there exists no history of that action and no consequences for the donor, but the donor tends to continue giving.

My Best, Eric

[canuckamuck]

A being such as an ant or mosquito is still considered sentient by Buddhism. It is suffering in the animal realm and using up the karma which caused its rebirth there, and whilst there it has little chance to create any good karma, but can still cause suffering and create more bad karma. (good=positive=skillful..... bad=negative=unskillful.)

Yes once a bug there just ain't no chance of getting back to being a human is there. Wow you would have to be a really good bug. And it is a good thing too, because we are struggling with the population we have; imagine if the bugs were all really good. Would we soon have quintillions of people? But from what I can make out, karma is really hard to shake off, and very few humans get it worked out so I imagine the population of humans will soon be down to nil. We necessarily will all be lower forms right?

[rockyysdt]

If it is confirmed...and it's still being investigated (not all scientists agree with that theory) it means that sometime in the far future the Universe will expand until it tears itself apart in what has been called the Big Rip.

I haven't heard the expression Big Rip before.

Isn't a more common outcome of accelerating expansion, a universe spread so thinly that it would peter out into nothingness flung over an ever expanding field.

The first suggestion for accelerating universe from observed data happened in 1992, by Paál et. al.^[3] In 1998, observations of type Ia supernovae also suggested that the expansion of the universe has been accelerating^[4][5] since around redshift of z~0.5.^[6] The 2006 Shaw Prize in Astronomy and the 2011 Nobel Prize in Physics were both awarded to Saul Perlmutter, Brian P. Schmidt, and Adam G. Riess for the 1998 discovery of the accelerating expansion of the Universe through observations of distant supernovae.^[7][8]

To keep things on topic, I believe a recycling universe helps support the theory of kharma.

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[jmdf103]

how far down the tree of complexity of organisms does this system go?

for example does taking antibiotics to kill bacteria that are causing me disease give me negative vipaka?

how about antiviral drugs, when you consider that a virus is considered not alive by the scientific community?

[rockyysdt]

Yes. You are describing the belief's of Buddhism, that there is some cloud that follows us thru time delivering some unknown consequence to our actions. People trained with this belief are not going to drop the belief, even it makes no sense.

The western laws of Action make more sense. An action causing another action does not have a cloud following it, forcing some future retribution to the original action. There is inertia which is that what is in motion tends to stay in motion. So if you give money to a temple, there exists no history of that action and no consequences for the donor, but the donor tends to continue giving.

My Best, Eric

I didn't think I was.

My description of kharma and vipaka may have ancient terminology but I don't think they need a cloud to follow you if re birth is moment to moment and we only speak of one (this) life.

If you subscribe to re birth into future lives then you'll need to include the cloud.

What does follow you through your life is your conditioning and mindset.

If I murder someone with hatred and malice then my deeds will haunt me through my life.

The fruits of my actions maybe great guilt, or it may take another form, such as incarceration for life, or execution.

It might also include great emotional harm to my family.

No cloud needed.

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[jmdf103]

If it is confirmed...and it's still being investigated (not all scientists agree with that theory) it means that sometime in the far future the Universe will expand until it tears itself apart in what has been called the Big Rip.

I haven't heard the expression Big Rip before.

Isn't a more common outcome of accelerating expansion, a universe spread so thinly that it would peter out into nothingness flung over an ever expanding field.

The first suggestion for accelerating universe from observed data happened in 1992, by Paál et. al.^[3] In 1998, observations of type Ia supernovae also suggested that the expansion of the universe has been accelerating^[4][5] since around redshift of z~0.5.^[6] The 2006 Shaw Prize in Astronomy and the 2011 Nobel Prize in Physics were both awarded to Saul Perlmutter, Brian P. Schmidt, and Adam G. Riess for the 1998 discovery of the accelerating expansion of the Universe through observations of distant supernovae.^[7][8]

To keep things on topic, I believe a recycling universe helps support the theory of kharma.

This doesn't explain how is karma communicated from a "crunched universe" to a new cycle of expansion. Since if the universe were to crunch to a point singularity, time and space no longer exist. i can't think of any way

[rockyysdt]

how far down the tree of complexity of organisms does this system go?

for example does taking antibiotics to kill bacteria that are causing me disease give me negative vipaka?

how about antiviral drugs, when you consider that a virus is considered not alive by the scientific community?

I understand intent has a part to play.

Also the lower the life form the less the vipaka.

No live person is free from suffering.

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

This doesn't explain how is karma communicated from a "crunched universe" to a new cycle of expansion. Since if the universe were to crunch to a point singularity, time and space no longer exist. i can't think of any way

Yes, but there are two opinions of what the Buddha was actually teaching.

• Some subscribe to re birth to countless future lives until enlightenment breaks the cycle,
  
• whilst others believe that the Buddha was actually teaching that re birth was a moment to moment thing and that awakening was to be free from greed aversion and delusion and a state at which a human could experience his maximum potential, but that it was still allover once he died.
  

The second one has no bearing on universal crunches.

Edited April 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[huli]

It depends on which theory you subscribe to.

For example, some are of the view that the universe (everything) never had a beginning and will never have an end.

That the universe may go through cycles with cataclysms punctuating each of these.

This would mean that life forms in the era you refer to (life without awareness) is a phase which had a previous origin with awareness.

To be sporned through the process of re birth as a lifeform without awareness might be the result of much Kharma.

i guess you are referring to the theory that universe is in a continuous cycle of bigbang, expansion, retraction, big crunch. Surely in the singularity conditions present at big bang/crunch where time and space do not exist (such as in a black hole), then in these conditions surely it is impossible for karma to have been communicated from previous cycles of crunch/bang.

In any case, the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion.

It seems reasonable to speculate that there was no karma, as we define it, operating in the universe prior to the emergence of self-aware organisms with intention. However, potential karma was probably inherent in the universe from the beginning, as was the emergence of life forms, etc.

I am surprised to see you write that "the universe has been observed to be in a runaway process of expansion." I believe the expansion of the universe has been slowing right along, and there still exists doubt about it's ultimate fate, largely because of all the dark matter. May I ask, where did you get this idea?

Hi Huli.

I was of the understanding that the universe's expansion is accelerating at the moment.

What this may suggest, I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia....rating_universe

Hi Rocky,

I was wrong on that one....I read up on it....what I learned is that it is now believed that the expansion of the universe has been accelerating for the last 10 billion years, supposedly due to "dark energy". It was slowing down for 5 billion, then voila, it got faster. Anyways, I stand corrected. And thanks for your comments. Back to Buddhism!

[ericsamadhi]

My understanding of karma, actions, is that an action is a discrete event. Energy is transferred and thats all. There is no return energy that haunts you thru time. The belief is that somehow when energy is tranferred to an object, that the energy remembers you, and follows you forever thru time, eventually returning to you. That belief is not reasonable, imho.

My Best, Eric

[ericsamadhi]

If you subscribe to re birth into future lives then you'll need to include the cloud.

What does follow you through your life is your conditioning and mindset....

No cloud needed.

I think you have hit on the truth. Your belief that rebirth ends your conditioning and your mindset is causing a need for a theory of a cloud of karma to follow you through rebirths. I can understand and agree a "mindset" is incarnating, so we eliminate the need for a theoretical karma cloud following you through time.

More simply, there is a belief in rebirth, and people see mindsets lasting a lifetime. Instead of postulating a karma cloud following you into a next life, it would be easier to have a mindset energy continue onto a new life, Like a soul. Most people believe in a soul. It has a mindset and it incarnates. Current religious belief in karma not needed.

My best. Eric

[rockyysdt]

Most people believe in a soul. It has a mindset and it incarnates. Current religious belief in karma not needed.

My best. Eric

The Buddha taught there is no soul.

He said there is nothing inside.

This quotation from the Buddha indicates that for each of us the end of the world comes with our death.

Many want more.

That's why they cling to religions.

Religions give them a sense of immortality and soften the reality that we are impermanent.

All impermanent things things must end.

Thus have I heard:

The end of the world can never be reached by walking.

However, without having reached the world’s end

There is no release from suffering.

I declare that it is in this fathom long carcass,

with its perceptions and thoughts,

that there is the world,

the origin of the world,

the cessation of the world,

and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

This fathom long carcase is our body.

Within it lies the world for each of us.

Without it there is no mind.

Without it there is cessation of the world.

When you cease, the world no longer exists as far as you're concerned.

[oggie911]

yes it came from the tv programme ,my name is earl.

Edited April 7, 2012 by oggie911

[canuckamuck]

My understanding of karma, actions, is that an action is a discrete event. Energy is transferred and thats all. There is no return energy that haunts you thru time. The belief is that somehow when energy is tranferred to an object, that the energy remembers you, and follows you forever thru time, eventually returning to you. That belief is not reasonable, imho.

My Best, Eric

Oh, but then where is the penalty of your misactions?

[JurgenG]

Karma is a "law", same as gravity.

If you jump from a plane without parachute, do you think the fact you're aware or not of the law of gravity will change anything of the outcome ?

Good and bad don't exist. It's the Apple from Adam and Eve. The day you "bite", you start believing in good and bad, is the day you lose the clear vision of the reality.

Edited April 8, 2012 by JurgenG

[huli]

Karma is a "law", same as gravity.

If you jump from a plane without parachute, do you think the fact you're aware or not of the law of gravity will change anything of the outcome ?

Good and bad don't exist. It's the Apple from Adam and Eve. The day you "bite", you start believing in good and bad, is the day you lose the clear vision of the reality.

Good and bad do exist. We have to do good and not bad in order to be able to purify our mind and have the essential insights that dispel ignorance and delusion. It just won't work otherwise.

[JurgenG]

^ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/confessions-of-an-ex-moralist/

[khaowong1]

Rockyysdtd, I've seen that Buddha quote many times. But it's confusing. According to the storys about the Buddha, in the first watch of the night he became enlightened, he seen many of his past lifes, many. If everything ends when we die, how could he have seen ANY past lifes, and he talked many times about, if you do this or that, you will have only 7 more earthly rebirths and in some cases only 1 more? Can you explain this please?

[camerata]

how far down the tree of complexity of organisms does this system go?

for example does taking antibiotics to kill bacteria that are causing me disease give me negative vipaka?

It applies only to sentient organisms, so there is no holocaust when you take antibacterial or antivirul drugs.

[jmdf103]

A being such as an ant or mosquito is still considered sentient by Buddhism. It is suffering in the animal realm and using up the karma which caused its rebirth there, and whilst there it has little chance to create any good karma, but can still cause suffering and create more bad karma. (good=positive=skillful..... bad=negative=unskillful.)

how far down the tree of complexity of organisms does this system go?

for example does taking antibiotics to kill bacteria that are causing me disease give me negative vipaka?

It applies only to sentient organisms, so there is no holocaust when you take antibacterial or antivirul drugs.

i guess it depends on your definition of sentient, for me a mosquito is not sentient just the same as microbes.