Retirement Renewal - How Dumb Am I?

[buadhai]

I read rogerdee123's excellent report of his Retirement Visa Renewal At Suan Plu, Another Smooth and Painless Experience.

Since my own visa expires at the beginning of February I decided to follow his lead and hope for such a positive experience. (Stupid me....)

So, I gathered up all the stuff I needed: photocopies, photo, medical certificate, etc., and headed off to Bangkok with Ms. B.

Yesterday morning we made our way to the US Consulate to get my "proof of income" letter. This was our first visit to that little piece of our homeland and we were, of course, shocked to see what a madhouse it is. Fortunately, at the time we arrived (about 7:50 AM), the US Citizens Service section wasn't so bad. By 8:00 AM I had paid the fee, completed the form and handed it in.

By 9:00 AM the once empty room had become standing room only with some spill over to the outside. Lots of papers were being handed in; none were being passed out. So, people waited and waited and waited. Finally, at 9:30 AM a consular official called my name, asked me if I understood the form, had me sign and then he signed and handed it over. So, it took them an hour and a half to stamp and date the form that I had filled out. Now, I was a good Federal bureaucrat for 32 years and I don't think I've ever before seen a 20 second job turned into an hour and a half chore. Well done US Consulate!

Then it was off to Suan Plu. It was kind of busy, but not intolerably so. We went up to the information counter to get our numbered chit. The officer asked about my purpose. I told her and then she asked for my passport. She started explaining something in English, but then gave up and started out speaking in rapid fire Thai to Ms. B; all the while gesturing at the stamps in my passport. That's when the day started to fall apart.

I don't speak much Thai, but I soon got the gist of the conversation. Visas cannot be extended by Immigration. My visa expires February 8th and if I want another one I have to leave the country and get one at a consulate abroad. Immigration can extend an entry permit, but only shortly before the entry permit is about to expire. My latest entry stamp doesn't expire until the end of September, 2006.

It didn't take me long to realize how stupid I'd been. Of course I should have known that I can't extend a visa while in Thailand. Of course I should have known that I can't extend my stay until the stay is about to expire. So, all the preparation done, all the travel expense, all the fees, everything turned out to be a colossal waste of time and money. Money that this fixed income retired geezer simply can't afford to waste.

So, we backed out of Immigration. I was still dazed at both my stupidity and the horrible waste of time and money my cretinism had caused.

Eventually we ended up at Asia Books in Thaniya Plaza. While gazing at the Thai language learning books (most of which I've owned at one time or another and none of which has ever done me any good) Ms. B came to me with a book suggestion. The title: "Anger Management Techniques". Thank-you so much.

After being blasted by the US Consulate, humiliated by Thai Immigration and embarrassed by Ms. B I decided that some comfort food was in order. We walked across to O'Reilley's. While putting a couple of tomato slices on my fat cheeseburger a cockroach scurried out of my salad and across the table. I managed to capture it with an upturned ash tray and showed it to our waitress. She whisked the plate away. By the time my substitute burger arrived (20 minutes later), I'm sure Ms. B (who insisted on waiting) had to consume hers stone cold.

From there we headed up to Banglampoo for a quick walk down Khao San Road, a place so alien I was almost sure I'd need my still-valid visa to re-enter the Kingdom. At the end of the walk we decided we needed a cold drink. We dropped in to The Sidewalk Cafe and ordered a couple. Nearly a half hour later they still hadn't arrived when a young trainee said something to our waitress who, I presume, had forgotten to submit our order. She shouted it out loud to to the bartender and, eventually, we got our 70 baht nam manao pan. (70 baht? We get 'em here in Korat for ten baht; twice the size....)

By the time we got back to our hotel room I decided I ought to stop feeling sorry for myself and instead thank God for His most wonderful gift to mankind: alcohol!

So, after two cold Chang's in the hotel room, three gin and tonics for happy hour and a huge jug of Singha with dinner I felt pretty good. I guess I staggered across the street and passed out in bed. Of course, this meant no good-night hug for Ms. B. But, at that point I'm sure she was grateful that the self-induced coma had finally put an end to my whingeing; at least for the day.

So, rogerdee123, my experience wasn't quite as smooth and painless as yours....

And, I still can't get over my being such a stupid fool.

[LoveDaBlues]

Eventually we ended up at Asia Books in Thaniya Plaza. While gazing at the Thai language learning books (most of which I've owned at one time or another and none of which has ever done me any good) Ms. B came to me with a book suggestion. The title: "Anger Management Techniques". Thank-you so much.

Hey Mike.....just the support you needed.......

It could have been worse.....what if the cockroach stayed hidden?

[TAWP]

Only worse thing then finding a cockroach in your sallad is finding half a cockroach...

[lopburi3]

Just remember to obtain a re-entry permit if you plan to leave the country to keep your permitted to stay stamp alive. Don't want to see a chapter II.

[buadhai]

Just remember to obtain a re-entry permit if you plan to leave the country to keep your permitted to stay stamp alive. Don't want to see a chapter II.

I did forget to mention that I got a multiple re-entry permit while there. I am headed to the States later on this year and Ms. B and I will probably hit Laos and Singapore before my current stamp expires.

I wonder if the fact that my current stamp extends beyond my visa expiration date is a mistake? A friend of mine who has worked here for a decade or more told me that his entry stamps always expire the same date as his current visa. He also mentioned that one time a mistake was made which ended up causing him no end of trouble.

OK, now it's time for a little more of God's gift....

[lopburi3]

Visa expiration dates never have anything to do with permitted to stay expiration dates.

A visa is a permitted to enter Thailand (use) time - nothing at all to do with staying here.

A permitted to stay stamp allows you to remain in Thailand 90 day in the case of a non immigrant visa and that permitted to stay stamp is what gets extended to one year. So your visa is long gone before your stay is over.

What he is probably thinking is your re entry permit will have the same expiration date as your permitted to stay stamp. You should have the same end of September date as your permitted to stay stamp for the one you just got. If a mistake was made on that and you returned after your permitted to stay stamp you indeed would have to start the extension process over.

[george]

Visa expiration date has nothing to do with entry expiration date, no problems there! You can enter the day before visa expiration day, and still get your full amount of days.

[JimGant]

And of course you asked the nice lady at Immigration as to whether or not your "proof of income" letter would still be good when you return in September?

[Ken]

OMG Mike. What a horror story. You've only re-affirmed my dread of heading down to the US embassy in March. My wife wants to make a trip to the US and "see snow and my relatives". Well, she can forget the snow part. I will be doing my "Thai wife extension" at Thai immigration at that time and that will be a "piece of cake" compared to the issues you presented at the American embassy. Not at all looking forward to it. And yes, thank you God for that most wonderful gift...Chang.

[Artisan]

And of course you asked the nice lady at Immigration as to whether or not your "proof of income" letter would still be good when you return in September?

My current "proof of income" letter was obtained from the British Embassy in Bangkok in September 2004. When I applied for another retirement extension in October 2004 I was told that I could use the same original letter again the following year (2005). Last October, when I applied for my current retirement extension, I asked about how long could I use the letter. The officer who handles these particular extensions said that the letter would be valid as long as my present passport was valid. This will save me a lot of inconvenience and cash by not having to go to the British Embassy every year.....BUT, if he moves on and another officer takes over this duty OR if things change on a whim and without notice, which they do, it will be back to the yearly trek to BKK.

Every year, I am sent two 6-monthy pension statements from the company that I worked with (company very well known in Thailand too) and a tax/income statement from the Inland Revenue but these are inacceptable.

[jayenram]

So, after two cold Chang's in the hotel room, three gin and tonics for happy hour and a huge jug of Singha with dinner I felt pretty good. I guess I staggered across the street and passed out in bed.

Excellent Mike. You made it across a whole street!

I wonder if the fact that my current stamp extends beyond my visa expiration date is a mistake? A friend of mine who has worked here for a decade or more told me that his entry stamps always expire the same date as his current visa. He also mentioned that one time a mistake was made which ended up causing him no end of trouble.

OK, now it's time for a little more of God's gift....

I think we may be talking of two different things here. As has been said, if you enter with a valid multi entry 12 month visa, you will be stamped for 90 days. If you enter with a retirement or married extension, your entry stamp expiry should be dated the same as the expiry date of said extension.

[lopburi3]

OMG Mike. What a horror story. You've only re-affirmed my dread of heading down to the US embassy in March. My wife wants to make a trip to the US and "see snow and my relatives". Well, she can forget the snow part. I will be doing my "Thai wife extension" at Thai immigration at that time and that will be a "piece of cake" compared to the issues you presented at the American embassy. Not at all looking forward to it. And yes, thank you God for that most wonderful gift...Chang.

As I read his post he did not have any problem at the American Embassy - he just had to wait awhile. If it was like my last visit in July most of this was due to all the marriages that seem to be taking place (getting the paperwork for that) so at least you can sit back and know that is behind you. You are probably best to visit a little later, when the crush of the visa application lines has ceased rather than early in the morning. Believe that as long as you get to window before 11:00 you should get out before noon. An hour a year I believe is not too bad (if not have a bad day).

[buadhai]

Here's what irritates me the most about this situation:

rogerdee12 entitled his post, in pertinent part: "Retirement Visa Renewal..."

But, rogerdee12 didn't renew his retirement visa, did he? No, he obtained an extension of his permission to say. Visas can't be renewed. They expire and that's it.

But, his erroneous assertion was allowed to stand; not one of our visa experts bothered to step in and correct his misleading post.

Dr. P, Lopburi3, George? Where were you when I needed you? You're all quick to jump in when I make a mistake, what happened this time?

I foolishly took rogerdee12's post at face value, figuring he knew what he was talking about. As a result I wasted three days and several hundred dollars. I guess you all are rich enough that a couple hundred dollars doesn't mean anything. For me it's financial pain that I'll feel for months to come....

And, no, I didn't ask whether or not my proof of income letter would still be good in September. I just assume, based on posts cited above, that I'll need a new one.

We did ask whether or not I still need a bank account if I have sufficient income. As usual, we got an answer different from any other answer we've received to this exact question. This immigration official said that I need both an account with 800K baht and sufficient income. Of course, when we discussed this at length with an immigration official here in Korat he said it was either/or. If you have sufficient income you don't need to show that you have a Thai bank account at all.

Just sign me "a bitter old fool".

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Can't be here 24/7 Mike

[Tywais]

Dr. P, Lopburi3, George? Where were you when I needed you? You're all quick to jump in when I make a mistake, what happened this time?

Sorry to hear about your problem buadhai. My guess is that because they are so familiar with the 'rules' that they just automatically read between the lines (same as I did) and probably never thought about a correction.

I'm still a little unclear about the situation. Your visa is still valid couldn't you just get the one-year extension to stay based on retirement using your currently valid visa?

[Boon Mee]

All of the above makes me more certain that arriving in LOS with a multiple entry O-A w/supporting wife is the 'better' way to go?

Sure, you have to do the police/medical in the states before arriving Don Muang but they (Immigration) will chop your passport good for a year and no 90 day reporting?

[lopburi3]

Dr. P, Lopburi3, George? Where were you when I needed you? You're all quick to jump in when I make a mistake, what happened this time?

Sorry to hear about your problem buadhai. My guess is that because they are so familiar with the 'rules' that they just automatically read between the lines (same as I did) and probably never thought about a correction.

I'm still a little unclear about the situation. Your visa is still valid couldn't you just get the one-year extension to stay based on retirement using your currently valid visa?

I suspect he has a single entry visa so it would not have been valid once used.

We preach until we are blue in the face that a visa is for entry only - a permitted to stay/extension of stay is what you have inside the country and you extend that time with the annual renewals. But it is called a "visa extension" by immigration so it is kind of hard to remove the visa word from peoples minds.

[Noel]

Here's what irritates me the most about this situation:

rogerdee12 entitled his post, in pertinent part: "Retirement Visa Renewal..."

But, rogerdee12 didn't renew his retirement visa, did he? No, he obtained an extension of his permission to say. Visas can't be renewed. They expire and that's it.

But, his erroneous assertion was allowed to stand; not one of our visa experts bothered to step in and correct his misleading post.

Sorry about your tale of woe buadhai, but I think the basic problem stems from the generally accepted terminology used.

The phrase 'Retirement Visa' is in general use, yet of course there is no such thing.

People are actually referring to an extension of permission to stay under their original Non-Immigrant 'O' or 'O-A' visa issued on the grounds of retirement.

Similarly, people often refer to 'Visa on Arrival' when they are actually referring to the 30 day Tourist Visa Exemption.

Posters often refer to 'extending' or 'renewing' their 'Retirement Visa' and, however factually erroneous the statements are, most know what they really mean as it has been discussed at length time and time again.

I know that will give you little comfort, but until such time as the term 'Retirement Visa' is disallowed on the Forum, I suspect others will make the same unfortunate mistake as yourself.

An alternative could be that every time someone uses the above terminology, their error is pointed out.

However, it would not take long for those pointing it out ad nauseam to be deemed pedantic.

[jayenram]

All of the above makes me more certain that arriving in LOS with a multiple entry O-A w/supporting wife is the 'better' way to go?

Sure, you have to do the police/medical in the states before arriving Don Muang but they (Immigration) will chop your passport good for a year and no 90 day reporting?

I do not think you are correct. Your passport will be 'chopped' for 90 days and at the end of those 90 days, you will be required to leave the country. Upon returning you will receive a further 90 day 'chop' and so on until your visa validity expires.

[lopburi3]

All of the above makes me more certain that arriving in LOS with a multiple entry O-A w/supporting wife is the 'better' way to go?

Sure, you have to do the police/medical in the states before arriving Don Muang but they (Immigration) will chop your passport good for a year and no 90 day reporting?

I do not think you are correct. Your passport will be 'chopped' for 90 days and at the end of those 90 days, you will be required to leave the country. Upon returning you will receive a further 90 day 'chop' and so on until your visa validity expires.

With an O-A visa he will receive a one year stamp on entry, be it single or multi entry type.

But there is no such thing as "w/supporting wife". That kind of visa is to spend the remained of your life in Thailand (retirement) and has nothing to do with supporting a Thai wife.

As for 90 day reporting I would do that as soon as you are here 90 days in any case. I know that this quote may be what he is thinking about "The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days." but in effect the "A" of that "O" visa was your first extension of stay (you did prior to arrival). I could be wrong but why take a chance.

[jayenram]

With an O-A visa he will receive a one year stamp on entry, be it single or multi entry type.

But there is no such thing as "w/supporting wife". That kind of visa is to spend the remained of your life in Thailand (retirement) and has nothing to do with supporting a Thai wife.

As for 90 day reporting I would do that as soon as you are here 90 days in any case. I know that this quote may be what he is thinking about "The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days." but in effect the "A" of that "O" visa was your first extension of stay (you did prior to arrival). I could be wrong but why take a chance.

Surely to receive a 'one year' stamp, the 'visa' will need to be an extension of stay (approved). Extensions cannot be multi-entry as far as I know. He will therefore also need a multi re-entry permit. The requirement to report every 90 days is mandatory for all extension holders.

[lopburi3]

With an O-A visa he will receive a one year stamp on entry, be it single or multi entry type.

But there is no such thing as "w/supporting wife". That kind of visa is to spend the remained of your life in Thailand (retirement) and has nothing to do with supporting a Thai wife.

As for 90 day reporting I would do that as soon as you are here 90 days in any case. I know that this quote may be what he is thinking about "The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days." but in effect the "A" of that "O" visa was your first extension of stay (you did prior to arrival). I could be wrong but why take a chance.

Surely to receive a 'one year' stamp, the 'visa' will need to be an extension of stay (approved). Extensions cannot be multi-entry as far as I know. He will therefore also need a multi re-entry permit. The requirement to report every 90 days is mandatory for all extension holders.

Believe that is what I said ""A" or that "O" visa was your first extension of stay"

Yes they can be multi entry and that was the only kind issued in the US for about a year or so.

If he has a multi entry O-A visa he does not require a re entry permit until the visa expires (one year).

The requirement to report address is mandatory for personal staying longer than 90 days. Any entry to Thailand is considered a report so no additional reporting would be required if you never stayed longer than 90 days at a time.

[Boon Mee]

All of the above makes me more certain that arriving in LOS with a multiple entry O-A w/supporting wife is the 'better' way to go?

Sure, you have to do the police/medical in the states before arriving Don Muang but they (Immigration) will chop your passport good for a year and no 90 day reporting?

I do not think you are correct. Your passport will be 'chopped' for 90 days and at the end of those 90 days, you will be required to leave the country. Upon returning you will receive a further 90 day 'chop' and so on until your visa validity expires.

With an O-A visa he will receive a one year stamp on entry, be it single or multi entry type.

But there is no such thing as "w/supporting wife". That kind of visa is to spend the remained of your life in Thailand (retirement) and has nothing to do with supporting a Thai wife.

As for 90 day reporting I would do that as soon as you are here 90 days in any case. I know that this quote may be what he is thinking about "The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days." but in effect the "A" of that "O" visa was your first extension of stay (you did prior to arrival). I could be wrong but why take a chance.

I seem to recall that there does exist a distinction between a 'Retirement' and a so-called 'supporting Thai wife' Visa?

You guys are the experts but this does get confusing...

[jayenram]

Yes they can be multi entry and that was the only kind issued in the US for about a year or so.

I stand corrected. Can a multi-entry extension be issued in Thailand?

[lopburi3]

Yes they can be multi entry and that was the only kind issued in the US for about a year or so.

I stand corrected. Can a multi-entry extension be issued in Thailand?

No. In Thailand you just get the extension of stay. Outside you get the visa which is the multi entry part and the pre approved extension of stay. All in all it has been a very confusing system for everyone involved as those with this visa have been able to obtain a new one year permitted to stay stamp on each entry into Thailand.

[Boon Mee]

Well, I'm still confused (aren't we all) w/respect to the so-called 'distinction' between a "Retirement" and a "Supporting Thai Wife" type Visa whether either are ME or single.

Help, Doc!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Both are Non-Immigrant O visa's. Retirement and / or support can be reasons for extension eligibility at Immigration.

All of the above makes me more certain that arriving in LOS with a multiple entry O-A w/supporting wife is the 'better' way to go?

Sure, you have to do the police/medical in the states before arriving Don Muang but they (Immigration) will chop your passport good for a year and no 90 day reporting?

You still have that 90 day reporting each and every time you stay for 90 days

[Boon Mee]

Both are Non-Immigrant O visa's. Retirement and / or support can be reasons for extension eligibility at Immigration.

All of the above makes me more certain that arriving in LOS with a multiple entry O-A w/supporting wife is the 'better' way to go?

Sure, you have to do the police/medical in the states before arriving Don Muang but they (Immigration) will chop your passport good for a year and no 90 day reporting?

You still have that 90 day reporting each and every time you stay for 90 days

OK - That's clear. No sweat. I can report to the Amphur in my Changwat, right?

Not to beat this sorry horse to death though...I'm still better off going for the 'support' vs the 'retirement' clause for extension eligibility?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Report at Immigration. It can be done by mail ( I'd register the mail ) Support has less financial obligation to Immigration for the extension. No medical required for support either.

[lopburi3]

You apply at an immigration office - the same as you would for any extension of stay.

The requirements are different so it is up to what you want. If you want to do the deed in one trip the retirement is the type to have. If you do not meed the money requirements for retirement or do not want to meet them, or want to work, perhaps the support Thai wife is better.