Thaksin Kicks Off U.S. Trip With Cheers And Jeers

[Buchholz]

When is the big man coming to (Thaitown) LA? Maybe it would be fun for some people there to organize some kind of satiric FLASH MOB to perform some kind of silly mass performance near the place he's going to be? Any good ideas for what the theme should be? Not talking a protest per se, more like performance art in the spirit of flash mobs. Sing a song, wear some funny clothes, do some weird thing en masse. It might add something to the circus environment of his visit to America. Make him feel noticed, you know?

The little guy in the Red Shirt is scheduled for a one-night-only performance this Sunday at the worn-out and drab Thailand Plaza restaurant/karaoke shop/entertainment center that sits atop a grim supermarket on crime-ridden Hollywood Boulevard.

His karaoke sing-a-song play list has yet to be determined.

The gig is just a notch or two down from the last time in the USA as a scheduled speaker in front of the U.N. General Assembly.

.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Buchholz

[unclueng]

With the Thai government?

Yes - the US always supports a democratically elected government.

The US always supports a government whose policies are in the best interest of the US.

[rijb]

It's interesting how some people are "always" sure about what the U.S. does or doesn't do.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't disagree, it is all very possible. Just very odd that the rules can be so easily bent for someone, when the question "Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence?", are not really open to interpretation...... and yet, there he is.........Sets a rather interesting precedent.

I'm not sure it is a precedent though. Might have trouble finding examples of an exact equivalent in this precise situation (to be honest, i haven't researched it), but a list as long as your arm of examples where visa rules are applied differently and at the discretion of authorities.

Well, that is exactly the issue. When you publicly allow someone who with absolutely NO DOUBT has been convicted, you either open yourself up to accusations of hypocrisy, or you are making a decision about how you see the conviction. Either they simply said, he's a convict, but we want to be mates (not very likely in the day and age of political finger pointing) or you decided to let him in coz you can justify it by saying his conviction wasnt' warrented in your eyes.

Can't sit on and be both sides of the fence, eventually you fall off.

[DiamondKing]

It just confirms the USA just like any normal thinking person realizes that the COO and all the trumped up charges was a clear witch hunt and all charges are exactly that worthless and trumped up.

That is why he was never arrested abroad and never will be and I have always posted that when you yellow shirt guys said oh now Interpol will pick him up and I always said NEVER and I have been proven right.

The previous Thai Government just has no credibility with the rest of the world and the charges and subsequent verdict have no weight anywhere in the world and even in thailand

Thats the truth of the matter no matter how much you dislike it

DK

Edited August 9, 2012 by DiamondKing

[gudtymchuk]

South Korean bodyguards.

So he don´t trust Thais?

Would you?

[Jingthing]

When is the big man coming to (Thaitown) LA? Maybe it would be fun for some people there to organize some kind of satiric FLASH MOB to perform some kind of silly mass performance near the place he's going to be? Any good ideas for what the theme should be? Not talking a protest per se, more like performance art in the spirit of flash mobs. Sing a song, wear some funny clothes, do some weird thing en masse. It might add something to the circus environment of his visit to America. Make him feel noticed, you know?

The little guy in the Red Shirt is scheduled for a one-night-only performance this Sunday at the worn-out and drab Thailand Plaza restaurant/karaoke shop/entertainment center that sits atop a grim supermarket on crime-ridden Hollywood Boulevard.

His karaoke sing-a-song play list has yet to be determined.

The gig is just a notch or two down from the last time in the USA as a scheduled speaker in front of the U.N. General Assembly.

.

Yeah I know the area. Perfect for a fun time flash mob.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_mob

[Thai at Heart]

A high ranking (former) political figure such as Thaksin would generally be granted a visa. He, and his lawyers, may have had to jump through a few hoops, but given the political muddle in Thailand, it would be granted. He no doubt got a waiver for his conviction.

Why didn't he go before? My guess is that he would have had interference from the previous government and it would have been advised against by the US Embassy in Bangkok. It would have made the smooth operation between the two countries a little bumpy. Also, if he did get a visa and travel to the US and the Thai gov't did ask for his detention and return, he would have been arrested. The US legal system can be pretty blind at times. He would likely not have gotten bail and would have been held in detention.

It would be neigh unto impossible to get the US government to agree not arrest or extradite him. What if the arrest warrant comes from another country? It won't be ignored even if Thailand doesn't want him arrested.

My view exactly.

[rixalex]

Well, that is exactly the issue. When you publicly allow someone who with absolutely NO DOUBT has been convicted, you either open yourself up to accusations of hypocrisy, or you are making a decision about how you see the conviction. Either they simply said, he's a convict, but we want to be mates (not very likely in the day and age of political finger pointing) or you decided to let him in coz you can justify it by saying his conviction wasnt' warrented in your eyes.

Can't sit on and be both sides of the fence, eventually you fall off.

So if the US is in the habit of ignoring court verdicts, as you suggest, one might imagine Thaksin's visa applications after his assets concealment trial, may have gone something like this: "now it says here Mr Thaksin that you were recently in court and found not guilty of hiding your assets, but we also read that you deposited massive sums of money into the bank accounts of your maid, your driver, your gardener, the paper boy, the lady that sells som tam from the cart at the end of the street... now come come Mr Thaksin, you might fool others, but you don't fool us. We are the US, we make our own judgements, and we are judging that that was all a crock, and you are a crook. Not welcome thanks".

But of course none of that happened. I wonder why.... perhaps because the US does not make decisions on how much validity there is in other courts decisions, but rather makes decisions based on what is best for international relations.

[saltandpepper]

With the Thai government?

Yes - the US always supports a democratically elected government.

joke of the day!

[Thai at Heart]

Well, that is exactly the issue. When you publicly allow someone who with absolutely NO DOUBT has been convicted, you either open yourself up to accusations of hypocrisy, or you are making a decision about how you see the conviction. Either they simply said, he's a convict, but we want to be mates (not very likely in the day and age of political finger pointing) or you decided to let him in coz you can justify it by saying his conviction wasnt' warrented in your eyes.

Can't sit on and be both sides of the fence, eventually you fall off.

So if the US is in the habit of ignoring court verdicts, as you suggest, one might imagine Thaksin's visa applications after his assets concealment trial, may have gone something like this: "now it says here Mr Thaksin that you were recently in court and found not guilty of hiding your assets, but we also read that you deposited massive sums of money into the bank accounts of your maid, your driver, your gardener, the paper boy, the lady that sells som tam from the cart at the end of the street... now come come Mr Thaksin, you might fool others, but you don't fool us. We are the US, we make our own judgements, and we are judging that that was all a crock, and you are a crook. Not welcome thanks".

But of course none of that happened. I wonder why.... perhaps because the US does not make decisions on how much validity there is in other courts decisions, but rather makes decisions based on what is best for international relations.

Concealing his assets would have been to break the parliamentary disclosure rules, which doesn't lead to a criminal conviction in Thailand, I think (please correct me if I am wrong). However, being convicted of the almight "c" word "CORRUPTION" whilst in office would I think be enough to disqualify most people from being granted a visa, unless of course, you reckon that the conviction doesn't count for anything.

Everyone is perfectly entitled to ignore "not guilty" verdicts given by courts, but "guilty" verdicts are simply that. They choose you one way or another to make a decision.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[Soutpeel]

It just confirms the USA just like any normal thinking person realizes that the COO and all the trumped up charges was a clear witch hunt and all charges are exactly that worthless and trumped up.

That is why he was never arrested abroad and never will be and I have always posted that when you yellow shirt guys said oh now Interpol will pick him up and I always said NEVER and I have been proven right.

The previous Thai Government just has no credibility with the rest of the world and the charges and subsequent verdict have no weight anywhere in the world and even in thailand

Thats the truth of the matter no matter how much you dislike it

DK

Thailand has promised the US something in exchange for giving him a visa, nothing to do with:

"It just confirms the USA just like any normal thinking person realizes that the COO and all the trumped up charges was a clear witch hunt and all charges are exactly that worthless and trumped up."

The fact remains Our man in Dubai was convicted/sentanced by a Thai court and absconded, has the conviction been reversed by a Thai court ?....no...If the US motivation is because what you suggesting, then they are not respecting the decision/jurisdiction of a Thai court, if it was truely politically motivated, surely with the fugitives sister in power in Thailand and the man concerned is running the country by proxy, surely getting this over turned would be easy...?...so why is he still a fugitive then ?

Interpol never arrested him simply because Thailand never asked for it, maybe a smart move on their part, keep him out the country as if he ended up in jail in Thailand, pretty sure the friendly neibourhood red shirts would be burning and pillaging until they got him released via their "democratic methods"

Edited August 9, 2012 by Soutpeel

[h90]

Anyway, one can only conclude, that someone somewhere, has decided that they can explain away that Thaksin's conviction is politically motivated.

I don't think so although i appreciate that will be the conclusion of some, eager for some sort of vindication for Thaksin. (not accusing you)

When Thaksin was being denied visas, as i think it is safe to assume he was, even if it wasn't always made public, unlike when visas are granted, that was little more reflection on his court case than what we have now. Then it was all about Thaksin's opposition parties being in power and other countries not wanting to upset the apple cart too much and put the big shots' noses in Thailand out of joint, and now what is going on is precisely that same. The US has waived usual visa issuing protocol and standards (as they have been known to do on occasion), in granting what was no doubt requested not only from Thaksin himself, but from high government authorities in Thailand, and given him the shortest visa possible, along perhaps with some informal requests that he keep his trip low profile and not use the US as a political platform (something that ties in with the statement from Amsterdam the other day about not lobbying for him in the US).

If we buy into this whole business (i don't) of US authorities having looked into Thaksin's court case and decided that they know better than the Thai justice system and declared him effectively still an innocent man in their eyes, perhaps someone should point them in the direction of his assets concealment case, and see what their verdict is on that one.

At the end of the day, all it is is international diplomacy. Yes, if you have been through visa applications yourself, and seen first hand how deeply they can scrutinize and question, you may find it reeks of double standards; of one rule for the elite, another rule for everyone else, but i don't think anyone is naive enough to find any of this a great surprise.

If the foreign minister or the PM of Thailand asks the USA for a Visa for Thaksin, USA can't do much other than give a Visa.

Yes they can.

yes theoretically they can. But in real life they can't. Because what would be the advantage of doing so?

[BuckarooBanzai]

For those that might not be aware:

Which countries have extradition treaties with Thailand?

Currently, the following countries have extradition treaties with Thailand: the US, the UK, Canada, China, Belgium, Philippines, Indonesia, Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia, South Korea, Bangladesh, Fiji, and Australia.

What makes offences extraditable?

Generally, offences which are considered by the country requesting extradition:

A crime punishable by death, or

A crime punishable by imprisonment of one year or more

My point being when are we going to start bashing England for letting T in the door or isn't this as much fun as bashing the US?

[glennb6]

Plain and simple: there's the law for you, me, and 99% of everyone else, then there's the very wealthy, the politicians, and THE decision makers. With the crap that the ussa pulls, breaking their own visa laws in plain sight means nothing.

my 2 baht

[h90]

This is why I reckon this visa approval had to be at the Hillary Clinton level and yes it DOES send a message about where the US stands on this internal Thai conflict.

read the wikileaks about Thailand....I tell no more....else I would risk to get banned.

[rixalex]

Well, that is exactly the issue. When you publicly allow someone who with absolutely NO DOUBT has been convicted, you either open yourself up to accusations of hypocrisy, or you are making a decision about how you see the conviction. Either they simply said, he's a convict, but we want to be mates (not very likely in the day and age of political finger pointing) or you decided to let him in coz you can justify it by saying his conviction wasnt' warrented in your eyes.

Can't sit on and be both sides of the fence, eventually you fall off.

So if the US is in the habit of ignoring court verdicts, as you suggest, one might imagine Thaksin's visa applications after his assets concealment trial, may have gone something like this: "now it says here Mr Thaksin that you were recently in court and found not guilty of hiding your assets, but we also read that you deposited massive sums of money into the bank accounts of your maid, your driver, your gardener, the paper boy, the lady that sells som tam from the cart at the end of the street... now come come Mr Thaksin, you might fool others, but you don't fool us. We are the US, we make our own judgements, and we are judging that that was all a crock, and you are a crook. Not welcome thanks".

But of course none of that happened. I wonder why.... perhaps because the US does not make decisions on how much validity there is in other courts decisions, but rather makes decisions based on what is best for international relations.

Concealing his assets would have been to break the parliamentary disclosure rules, which doesn't lead to a criminal conviction in Thailand, I think (please correct me if I am wrong). However, being convicted of the almight "c" word "CORRUPTION" whilst in office would I think be enough to disqualify most people from being granted a visa.

Everyone is perfectly entitled to ignore "not guilty" verdicts given by courts, but "guilty" verdicts are simply that. They choose you one way or another to make a decision.

I don't know about the answer to your first question.

I agree that a not guilty verdict is easier to ignore, but that doesn't mean it has to be, and if the US is effectively over-ruling a court's verdict in one direction, as you suggest it is doing, i see no reason why it couldn't over-rule a decision in the other direction.

I don't think it does either way. I appreciate though that is how it looks, and that is precisely the reason why Thaksin has orchestrated the whole trip: for his supporters to stand up and say there you go, there's proof that our man is innocent, the US thinks he is. And when at some future time he is refused a visa, which i'm sure he will be, should the public ever know about it, (they probably won't) the reds will revert back to their this means nothing, you can't read anything into this, this is just a conspiracy against him.

[ratcatcher]

Is that 1 of his Sth Korean bodyguards in the pic? looks a lil old to me

This old guy knows how to squeeze balls.

Will that be all Mr.Thaksin,sir?

[Thai at Heart]

It just confirms the USA just like any normal thinking person realizes that the COO and all the trumped up charges was a clear witch hunt and all charges are exactly that worthless and trumped up.

That is why he was never arrested abroad and never will be and I have always posted that when you yellow shirt guys said oh now Interpol will pick him up and I always said NEVER and I have been proven right.

The previous Thai Government just has no credibility with the rest of the world and the charges and subsequent verdict have no weight anywhere in the world and even in thailand

Thats the truth of the matter no matter how much you dislike it

DK

Thailand has promised the US something in exchange for giving him a visa, nothing to do with:

"It just confirms the USA just like any normal thinking person realizes that the COO and all the trumped up charges was a clear witch hunt and all charges are exactly that worthless and trumped up."

The fact remains Our man in Dubai was convicted/sentanced by a Thai court and absconded, has the conviction been reversed by a Thai court ?....no...If the US motivation is because what you suggesting, then they are not respecting the decision/jurisdiction of a Thai court, if it was truely politically motivated, surely with the fugitives sister in power in Thailand and the man concerned is running the country by proxy, surely getting this over turned would be easy...?...so why is he still a fugitive then ?

Interpol never arrested him simply because Thailand never asked for it, maybe a smart move on their part, keep him out the country as if he ended up in jail in Thailand, pretty sure the friendly neibourhood red shirts would be burning and pillaging until they got him released via their "democratic methods"

Well, the reasons for Interpol not having a notice for Thaksin maybe because

INTERPOL will issue notices only "if it is satisfied that all the conditions for processing the information have been fulfilled. For example, a notice will not be published if it violates Article 3 of the Constitution, which forbids the Organization from undertaking any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character."^[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol_notice

And despite Kasit's apparently sterling efforts to obtain one, there never was one.....But why, oh why. I mean, the courts were acting after a coup, and an election on a constitution, and of course, the rest of the world does things this way. Who on earth could possibly intimate or believe that even possibly, there could be a political element to any decision made by a court in Thailand. Such things never happen, Thailand possesses such a root and branch safe, reliable and predictable legal system.

But surely not..... from our very own friendly neighbourhood Nation

As of now, Interpol has not yet put Thaksin's name on its wanted list, reportedly because it believed the rulings on Thaksin's corruption and abuse of power charges are politically motivated.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/08/30/politics/Montenegro-to-act-if-Thaksin-on-Interpol-list-30136897.html

Shock horror, international organisation says that rulings are politically motivated? Surely not, impossible, the unimpeachable and thoroughly ethical Thai legal system would never do such a thing.

[AiteCM]

Should the United States fail to take Thaksin into custody, it could be translated as the US government having no regard for the Thai judicial system, he said.- was there ever any doubt...

[Moruya]

I guess if you have enough money,anything is possible,even a U.S. Visa

I heard that Obama granted the visa because he wanted to meet the tycoon.

[phiphidon]

So, now we know!

It was all arranged by the Thai Government for DL to be allowed to step foot on US soil, and not be arrested.

How can we be surprised? MP's pay regular visits, Chief of Police goes and great,.. Not one has done his duty, which was to try to catch and bring Thaksin back to face the music. So, him being in the US now is just the logic thing to see. Wait a bit, and soon Yingluck will be doing a photo op with Pee T.

DL?

Dalai Lama

[Moruya]

For your information, the following questions are a part of the DS-160 Visa Application:

Security and Background Information

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any

offense or crime, even though subject of a pardon,

amnesty, or other similar action?

Have you ever been involved in, or do you seek to

engage in, money laundering?

Have you committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or

otherwise participated in extrajudicial killings, political

killings, or other acts of violence?

I wonder what answers were given?

Any "Yes" answer requires a detailed explanation.

Is there an "Honest Mistake" box too?

[rixalex]

Shock horror, international organisation says that rulings are politically motivated? Surely not, impossible, the unimpeachable and thoroughly ethical Thai legal system would never do such a thing.

Although as stated, i don't think this US visit does particularly say much about how the US views his conviction, but rather about which way the political wind is blowing, i do fully appreciate that from an outsiders point of view, perhaps not being fully aware of certain details such as his assets concealment case, such as the fact that his party was in power when he was convicted, such as the fact that he tried to bribe the courts, such as the fact that he has never claimed innocence nor provided evidence to this effect... and perhaps hearing a lot more about such well advertised by his team matters as the fact that he was kicked out thanks to a coup, and that he remains popular, might easily lead one to believe that the court case against him was "politically motivated". I get that outsiders might reach that conclusion. What i don't get is insiders reaching that conclusion too. Are you such a person? If so you genuinely baffle me.

[Soutpeel]

My point being when are we going to start bashing England for letting T in the door or isn't this as much fun as bashing the US?

why only bash England, its the UK, Britian or the United Kingdom and they pulled his visa when this all kicked off

[Soutpeel]

Should the United States fail to take Thaksin into custody, it could be translated as the US government having no regard for the Thai judicial system, he said.- was there ever any doubt...

They can only take him into custody if Thailand asks them to, he actually hasnt committed a crime in the US

[Thai at Heart]

Shock horror, international organisation says that rulings are politically motivated? Surely not, impossible, the unimpeachable and thoroughly ethical Thai legal system would never do such a thing.

Although as stated, i don't think this US visit does particularly say much about how the US views his conviction, but rather about which way the political wind is blowing, i do fully appreciate that from an outsiders point of view, perhaps not being fully aware of certain details such as his assets concealment case, such as the fact that his party was in power when he was convicted, such as the fact that he tried to bribe the courts, such as the fact that he has never claimed innocence nor provided evidence to this effect... and perhaps hearing a lot more about such well advertised by his team matters as the fact that he was kicked out thanks to a coup, and that he remains popular, might easily lead one to believe that the court case against him was "politically motivated". I get that outsiders might reach that conclusion. What i don't get is insiders reaching that conclusion too. Are you such a person? If so you genuinely baffle me.

Well, the system in the US has chosen to ignore the fact that he has a conviction. That much we can see as clear as night and day.

No, it is just that it is so blatantly simple to look at the machinations of the last 10 years and realise that the courts have been making political decisions one way or another for ever depending on who has been in a position to lean on them the most. Some Thaksin won, some he lost, but it doesn't remove the idea or belief that the legal system swings one way and that depending on pressure being applied.

I have always maintained that the issue isn't the politicians it is the courts. For virtually every crappy self serving move that Thaksin and TRT/PTP made, the other political parties made one, and then throw in a coup, and it is virtually impossible for anyone on the outside to look at any legal decision made in the last 10 years and believe that there hasn't been a political element to the verdict. So, in a way, I wouldn't blame any country for saying, I really don't care about any legal judgement against any politician in Thailand in the last 10 years, all the decisions were shonky and I haven't got time to get into the minutiae of every judgement. I mean, whom wouldn't a Western court convict from the Thai parliament for corruption, conflict of interest, dodgy deals, backhanders? 95% of them?

They all stink to high heaven, and I completely expect in the next year or so, there will actually be some verdicts passed for corruption against some pretty senior Democrats for god knows what. They may stay and take their punishment, but don't be surprised if they skip out of town too. And then what are we to do, sit around and say "See he is s a convicted criminal, he gets what he deserves", when we know only full well, that if the Dems were in power, the cases would never come to see the light of day.

It isn't that Thaksin is the devil incarnate, and all the others are sweetness and light. They are all, and I mean all schisters, gangster and conmen of the highest quality, who are busy feathering their nests at the expense of the country. Abhisit and Korn may be the closest thing to approaching clean politicians, but even Abhisit has the most horrendous conflicts of interest through his family.

So I choose not to condemn Thaksin too much, he got caught and chose to run, even though irony or ironies, the dam_n system let him out, but condemn the system that continues to not deliver unbiased, non-political judgements to suit the flavour of the day.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[mca]

Good job he didn't kick off his trip in Texas as the headline wouldn't read " cheers and jeers "

[Buchholz]

When is the big man coming to (Thaitown) LA? Maybe it would be fun for some people there to organize some kind of satiric FLASH MOB to perform some kind of silly mass performance near the place he's going to be? Any good ideas for what the theme should be? Not talking a protest per se, more like performance art in the spirit of flash mobs. Sing a song, wear some funny clothes, do some weird thing en masse. It might add something to the circus environment of his visit to America. Make him feel noticed, you know?

The little guy in the Red Shirt is scheduled for a one-night-only performance this Sunday at the worn-out and drab Thailand Plaza restaurant/karaoke shop/entertainment center that sits atop a grim supermarket on crime-ridden Hollywood Boulevard.

His karaoke sing-a-song play list has yet to be determined.

The gig is just a notch or two down from the last time in the USA as a scheduled speaker in front of the U.N. General Assembly.

Yeah I know the area. Perfect for a fun time flash mob.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_mob

Perhaps something related to the fall of his position akin to going from starring in Broadway theater all the way down now to an aging burlesque dancer in a seedy carnival show.

[Ricardo]

It just confirms the USA just like any normal thinking person realizes that the COO and all the trumped up charges was a clear witch hunt and all charges are exactly that worthless and trumped up.

That is why he was never arrested abroad and never will be and I have always posted that when you yellow shirt guys said oh now Interpol will pick him up and I always said NEVER and I have been proven right.

The previous Thai Government just has no credibility with the rest of the world and the charges and subsequent verdict have no weight anywhere in the world and even in thailand

Thats the truth of the matter no matter how much you dislike it

DK

"The previous Thai government"

But wasn't Thaksin found guilty and sentenced under the PPP-led coalition-government prior to that, the one led by his then brother-in-law PM-Somchai Wongsawat ?

So if one is concerned that a "Thai government has no credibility with the rest of the world", then "the truth of the matter no matter how much you dislike it" is that it was Thaksin's proxy-government at which the mud should be thrown, not the subsequent Democrat-led coalition-government of PM-Abhisit ?