Daily Minimum Wage Increase To Bt300 Falls Behind Living Costs: Thai Study

[Orac]

Where on earth did they get their figures from:

"As of this past May, daily expenses averaged Bt462.31 - Bt113.92 more than August 2011"

This gives an annuallised inflation rate of over 40 %!

[Thaddeus]

Please read this part of the article ... again, ... very carefully. Repeat if you need to...

The survey, conducted on 2,516 workers in eight provinces including Bangkok, found that 76 per cent saw their wage increase after April, while 18 per cent got the raise with conditions; 5.1 per cent received no wage hike, despite the law.

And then tell me if you honestly feel that they did a survey of non-min-wage workers... No, never mind - I don't need to know.

That isn't really the point though is it Tom.

The point is that it was an election promise that was supposed to take effect nationwide, immediately.

It has neither taken effect immediately or nationwide.

But the effects are being felt by the whole country and not in a good way, and being felt the hardest by those who can least afford it, you know, those people who fell for the lie.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Where on earth did they get their figures from:

"As of this past May, daily expenses averaged Bt462.31 - Bt113.92 more than August 2011"

This gives an annuallised inflation rate of over 40 %!

It is more of a 'cost of living rise' - not inflation.

If the price of fuel rose by 10% it doesn't raise inflation by 10%.

[BrianCR]

That was a stupid implemented policy from the start, but as it is typical with Thai politics, nothing has web thought of about the consequences of such a critical issue...

What the government financial guru's forgot was that by increasing the basic pay to 300 baht per day in EIGHT REGIONS the price of the products produced would be increased in ALL REGIONS so, making those areas outside the eight regions having to pay more with no increase of salary. Prices in my company increase on a monthly basis and this has to be passed onto the consumer. Additionally a large % of local labour has fled to these eight regions in the hope of making more money, making it harder and harder to find workers in the other areas. My company has had to close one of our shops as we are unable to locate staff (although we pay above average + bonuses). No problem you may think but, what happens when these workers decide to return home and plenty of other companies (such as mine) have closed parts of their businesses, parts that are unlikely ever to reopen?

[Orac]

Where on earth did they get their figures from:

"As of this past May, daily expenses averaged Bt462.31 - Bt113.92 more than August 2011"

This gives an annuallised inflation rate of over 40 %!

It is more of a 'cost of living rise' - not inflation.

If the price of fuel rose by 10% it doesn't raise inflation by 10%.

If inflation isn't the cost of living rising what would it be???

[rubl]

From the urgent policies to be implemented the first year, as read out in a nice voice by PM Yingluck August, 2011

"1.8 Raising people's standard of living by enhancing domestic purchasing power and creating balance and strength with quality in the macroeconomic system.

1.8.1 Freeze the household debts of small farmers and low-income earners with debts less than 500,000 Baht for at least three years; carry out debt restructuring for those with debts of more than 500,000 Baht; and, formulate a comprehensive occupation revival plan and production restructuring plan so as to create the opportunity to raise the quality of life through stable income and the ability to pay off debts.

1.8.2 Enable a worker to earn not less than 300 Baht per day and a bachelor's degree holder to have an income of not less than 15,000 Baht per month which will be in line with his/her productivity and efficiency; implement counter-measures to reduce the burden of entrepreneurs whom have been affected by the abovementioned measures so that workers and personnel can make a living with dignity and obtain a decent quality of life.

1.8.3 Provide progressive monthly allowances for senior citizens. Senior citizens at the age between 60 and 69, between 70 and 79, between 80 and 89 and more than 90 years old will receive 600, 700, 800 and 1,000 Baht, respectively.

1.8.4 Introduce tax measures to reduce the general public's burden of purchasing such essentials as the first house and car."

[rixalex]

And it would be far too much to expect that you would consider adding why the delay came about, a concession to the business lobby to raise the rate more gently... Which by the way was also the demand from anti-minimum wage posters here. And even though the policy was generated by a 3 party wage commission, including the business lobby, the imagined failures of the result are clearly just the fault of the government?

The difference between the business lobby (and posters here) and the government, is that they were not the ones lying about what they would do, in order to win power. This is why the government gets flack for this. Not because they couldn't implement it, but because they promised to do it and are failing. And yes i know, this is what all political parties stoop to in order to win power... just that some stoop lower than others.

[OzMick]

The survey, conducted on 2,516 workers in eight provinces including Bangkok, found that 76 per cent saw their wage increase after April, while 18 per cent got the raise with conditions; 5.1 per cent received no wage hike, despite the law.

How many of these were already above minimum wage?

0, or is that too hard to figure out, Whybother?

What evidence is your smarmy answer based upon? Surely there were some workers earning above the OLD minimum wage but less than B300/day who would be included in the 76% whose wage increased, but have now lost their margin for skill.

[tlansford]

And it would be far too much to expect that you would consider adding why the delay came about, a concession to the business lobby to raise the rate more gently... Which by the way was also the demand from anti-minimum wage posters here. And even though the policy was generated by a 3 party wage commission, including the business lobby, the imagined failures of the result are clearly just the fault of the government?

The difference between the business lobby (and posters here) and the government, is that they were not the ones lying about what they would do, in order to win power. This is why the government gets flack for this. Not because they couldn't implement it, but because they promised to do it and are failing. And yes i know, this is what all political parties stoop to in order to win power... just that some stoop lower than others.

Sorry to say this Rixalex, but the government is not failing to deliver the minimum wage promise. The promise was made, and the promise is being kept. Period.

But once again, posters on TVF will find any excuse to slam the PTP - that is just par for the (boring) course here.

[SuneeTH]

300 Baht perday is 300 baht too much to pay lazy Thai sitting there all day.

Food is only 20 baht per meal and help yourself to the FREE refreshing cool drinking water.

[tlansford]

Please read this part of the article ... again, ... very carefully. Repeat if you need to...

The survey, conducted on 2,516 workers in eight provinces including Bangkok, found that 76 per cent saw their wage increase after April, while 18 per cent got the raise with conditions; 5.1 per cent received no wage hike, despite the law.

And then tell me if you honestly feel that they did a survey of non-min-wage workers... No, never mind - I don't need to know.

That isn't really the point though is it Tom.

The point is that it was an election promise that was supposed to take effect nationwide, immediately.

It has neither taken effect immediately or nationwide.

But the effects are being felt by the whole country and not in a good way, and being felt the hardest by those who can least afford it, you know, those people who fell for the lie.

which effects are being felt by the whole country which are a direct result of a promise not being kept?

Your argument is inane. But keep going - slam the government with statements that make no sense and are not supported - it seems to make you feel better. The only lie around here to fall for would be yours.

One of you aliases is now going on "ignore"

[whybother]

Sorry to say this Rixalex, but the government is not failing to deliver the minimum wage promise. The promise was made, and the promise is being kept. Period.

But once again, posters on TVF will find any excuse to slam the PTP - that is just par for the (boring) course here.

You're absolutely right. The government is not failing to deliver the minimum wage policy. It has already failed.

The promise was for an immediate nation wide 300 baht minimum wage. It was even specifically stated to be implemented in the first year.

Last I checked, its been a year since there came into government and the policy hasn't been implemented.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed as well as the replies.

[Thaddeus]

Please read this part of the article ... again, ... very carefully. Repeat if you need to...

The survey, conducted on 2,516 workers in eight provinces including Bangkok, found that 76 per cent saw their wage increase after April, while 18 per cent got the raise with conditions; 5.1 per cent received no wage hike, despite the law.

And then tell me if you honestly feel that they did a survey of non-min-wage workers... No, never mind - I don't need to know.

That isn't really the point though is it Tom.

The point is that it was an election promise that was supposed to take effect nationwide, immediately.

It has neither taken effect immediately or nationwide.

But the effects are being felt by the whole country and not in a good way, and being felt the hardest by those who can least afford it, you know, those people who fell for the lie.

which effects are being felt by the whole country which are a direct result of a promise not being kept?

Your argument is inane. But keep going - slam the government with statements that make no sense and are not supported - it seems to make you feel better. The only lie around here to fall for would be yours.

One of you aliases is now going on "ignore"

Wow..... what lie did I tell?

And, what aliases? I have only every had one TVF name, but it is easy to make wild unfounded accusations to divert attention isn't it.

[rixalex]

You're absolutely right. The government is not failing to deliver the minimum wage policy. It has already failed.

The promise was for an immediate nation wide 300 baht minimum wage. It was even specifically stated to be implemented in the first year.

Last I checked, its been a year since there came into government and the policy hasn't been implemented.

Sent from my HTC phone.

To be honest, i have had reasonable discussions and debates with Tom in the past, but of late, his position has seemed to become more deeply entrenched in a party political sense. Perhaps he has been pushed against his better judgement into this sort of viewpoint because of the sheer number of anti-government posters that now exist on this forum. Anyway, how he forms the opinions he does is obviously a matter for him...

The view he is expressing here, of the government not failing in what they promised with regards minimum wages, is only possible to argue if you are prepared to jump through ridiculous hoops and contort yourself around the twisting of facts that is normally just the reserve of slimy politicians. Acting in this manner exposes a person not as an advocate for the rights of the poor, but rather as an advocate for a political party. I don't want to believe that about Tom but i have reached the point where i feel everything that comes out of his mouth now points in that one direction.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Where on earth did they get their figures from:

"As of this past May, daily expenses averaged Bt462.31 - Bt113.92 more than August 2011"

This gives an annuallised inflation rate of over 40 %!

It is more of a 'cost of living rise' - not inflation.

If the price of fuel rose by 10% it doesn't raise inflation by 10%.

If inflation isn't the cost of living rising what would it be???

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

This is different to someone's average daily expenses. Put it this way, is the inflation rate in Thailand 40% now, as would be implied from your numbers if they were the self same thing??

[Orac]

Where on earth did they get their figures from:

"As of this past May, daily expenses averaged Bt462.31 - Bt113.92 more than August 2011"

This gives an annuallised inflation rate of over 40 %!

It is more of a 'cost of living rise' - not inflation.

If the price of fuel rose by 10% it doesn't raise inflation by 10%.

If inflation isn't the cost of living rising what would it be???

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

This is different to someone's average daily expenses. Put it this way, is the inflation rate in Thailand 40% now, as would be implied from your numbers if they were the self same thing??

How inflation effects individuals will depend of what they spend money on. The official inflation rates however you care to measure them are a very broad brush. The figures given do not say how they are arrived at or what they cover however they do imply that the inflation rate for the demographic they are looking at is 40 % per annum which is why I am questioning them.

[rubl]

First year policy 1.8.2 Enable a worker to earn not less than 300 Baht per day and a bachelor's degree holder to have an income of not less than 15,000 Baht per month which will be in line with his/her productivity and efficiency; implement counter-measures to reduce the burden of entrepreneurs whom have been affected by the abovementioned measures so that workers and personnel can make a living with dignity and obtain a decent quality of life.

"Enable ... to earn not less than 300B/d ... which will be in line with his/her productivity and efficiency"

No mention on how to enable, neither a quantification of productivity/efficiency, nor the correlation.

Of course the promise was this:

[kimamey]

The survey, conducted on 2,516 workers in eight provinces including Bangkok, found that 76 per cent saw their wage increase after April, while 18 per cent got the raise with conditions; 5.1 per cent received no wage hike, despite the law.

How many of these were already above minimum wage?

0, or is that too hard to figure out, Whybother?

Actually the way it's written there's no way to be sure as far as I can tell. Of course it will have been translated so as usual it's very difficult to be certain about the finer details. Even the question is ambiguous as it isn't totally clear if it's asking about the current 300baht minimum or the previous minimum (I think there was one). Assuming it's referring to the 300 baht then I would think having a guess that you're right that these are workers who were getting less than 300 baht a day prior to April.

[jaltsc]

"TLSC chairman Chalee Loysung suggested that the daily minimum wage should be Bt348 and that it should be imposed nationwide. He urged the government to strictly control goods prices to ensure the cost of living doesn't outstrip wages. He also called for the elimination of provincial wage sub-committees in favour of a central committee. There should also be a clear structure of salaries for skilled labourers apart from the minimum wage for unskilled workers."

Is that your solution?...Pseudo Socialism?.

Hey....It's called "Inflation"!!!...You raise expenses (Hint: Minimum Wage), then the business has to raise its prices. After all, they are businesses, not welfare agencies. So when the minimum wage is raised 50%...Yes...a 100 THB increase equals a 50% increase...not only do the large businesses raise their prices, but the little noodle stand which might not be as affected by the minimum wage increase, figures it's OK to raise its price from 10 to 15 THB. At the end, the overall inflation is considerably more than just the increase in the minimum wage. Pass whatever economic laws you want. The laws of supply and demand will beat your laws 100% of the time.

May I kindly ask you, where you got this information from?

From the article and the noodle stand on the corner near where I live.

[Buchholz]

From the urgent policies to be implemented the first year, as read out in a nice voice by PM Yingluck August, 2011

1.8.2 Enable a worker to earn not less than 300 Baht per day

Thanks for highlighting the time frame the government set for implementing 300 Baht per day to all workers.

It's now been a year, the time frame is up, and they've accomplished only 8% of their pledge according to their own guidelines.

Massive Fail.

.

[Buchholz]

Sorry to say this Rixalex, but the government is not failing to deliver the minimum wage promise.

True. They've delivered 8% of their promise and failed to deliver 92% of it.

.

[SICHONSTEVE]

It is more of a 'cost of living rise' - not inflation.

If the price of fuel rose by 10% it doesn't raise inflation by 10%.

If inflation isn't the cost of living rising what would it be???

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

This is different to someone's average daily expenses. Put it this way, is the inflation rate in Thailand 40% now, as would be implied from your numbers if they were the self same thing??

How inflation effects individuals will depend of what they spend money on. The official inflation rates however you care to measure them are a very broad brush. The figures given do not say how they are arrived at or what they cover however they do imply that the inflation rate for the demographic they are looking at is 40 % per annum which is why I am questioning them.

You are questioning them on the wrong premis.

Sure, they are related as if your living expense go up then this will have a negative effect on inflation (it will rise). But it is wrong to say that year on year inflation has risen 40% because it takes 40% more money each day to cover living expenses for someone.

They cannot be directly equated in other words.

[Orac]

If inflation isn't the cost of living rising what would it be???

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

This is different to someone's average daily expenses. Put it this way, is the inflation rate in Thailand 40% now, as would be implied from your numbers if they were the self same thing??

How inflation effects individuals will depend of what they spend money on. The official inflation rates however you care to measure them are a very broad brush. The figures given do not say how they are arrived at or what they cover however they do imply that the inflation rate for the demographic they are looking at is 40 % per annum which is why I am questioning them.

You are questioning them on the wrong premis.

Sure, they are related as if your living expense go up then this will have a negative effect on inflation (it will rise). But it is wrong to say that year on year inflation has risen 40% because it takes 40% more money each day to cover living expenses for someone.

They cannot be directly equated in other words.

I think we are just going to have to disagree on this one since I would argue that the cost of living and inflation are directly related.

[Ricardo]

you know that all the other provinces received an average 40% increase in the minimum wage in April and will have the 300 B in January, .... don't you?

Yes, Thanks, I did know that.

But right now they're still waiting for the 300B/day immediate universal minimum-wage they were promised pre-election, are they not ?

Ah, so on August 9th 2011 everyone was promised to have 300B / day min wage?

Now I see where the "untruths" begin... which clarifies your (as we now know) purposeful omission of the increase everyone already received.

And it would be far too much to expect that you would consider adding why the delay came about, a concession to the business lobby to raise the rate more gently... Which by the way was also the demand from anti-minimum wage posters here. And even though the policy was generated by a 3 party wage commission, including the business lobby, the imagined failures of the result are clearly just the fault of the government?

But you see, when something is, after all, done in a reasonable way, the whiners on TVF still need to find an excuse to complain and a reason to blame the gov't for something just because a day with slamming the PTP is like a day without sunshine...

Fine, refuse to answer my question, if you want, which is why you and your tag-team partner are on Ignore with me.

Rant away to yourself instead.

[tlansford]

You're absolutely right. The government is not failing to deliver the minimum wage policy. It has already failed.

The promise was for an immediate nation wide 300 baht minimum wage. It was even specifically stated to be implemented in the first year.

Last I checked, its been a year since there came into government and the policy hasn't been implemented.

Sent from my HTC phone.

To be honest, i have had reasonable discussions and debates with Tom in the past, but of late, his position has seemed to become more deeply entrenched in a party political sense. Perhaps he has been pushed against his better judgement into this sort of viewpoint because of the sheer number of anti-government posters that now exist on this forum. Anyway, how he forms the opinions he does is obviously a matter for him...

The view he is expressing here, of the government not failing in what they promised with regards minimum wages, is only possible to argue if you are prepared to jump through ridiculous hoops and contort yourself around the twisting of facts that is normally just the reserve of slimy politicians. Acting in this manner exposes a person not as an advocate for the rights of the poor, but rather as an advocate for a political party. I don't want to believe that about Tom but i have reached the point where i feel everything that comes out of his mouth now points in that one direction.

You might notice that ... I am still here.

Make the case - and I mean a real case - that says the government is failing in its minimum wage promise. But you can't...

I have not seen it on TVF - the ONLY argument (if I can be so generous) is that people point to the negotiated deal that came out of the three-party wage committee (as it must, since that is the law in Thailand) and say "the government broke its promise".

Well, that is a load of hooey (to avoid offending some of the more delicate souls here). The deal has been brokered. It was essentially done in September, which in political time is "immediate" and it was set for January 1st. Then the first phase of the negotiated deal was pushed to April in consideration to the business community with regard to the impact of the floods. I fully understand that I feel it was perfectly reasonable. The entire country received a significant increase in the minimum wage on April 1 and all of the country will be brought to 300B/day on Jan 1st. Again, a negotiated and reasonable deal struck between labor, employers, and the government.

Now I recognize that there are enough far right nutters on this forum to call that breaking a promise, but IMO they are just full of "hooey"...

[tlansford]

you know that all the other provinces received an average 40% increase in the minimum wage in April and will have the 300 B in January, .... don't you?

Yes, Thanks, I did know that.

But right now they're still waiting for the 300B/day immediate universal minimum-wage they were promised pre-election, are they not ?

Ah, so on August 9th 2011 everyone was promised to have 300B / day min wage?

Now I see where the "untruths" begin... which clarifies your (as we now know) purposeful omission of the increase everyone already received.

And it would be far too much to expect that you would consider adding why the delay came about, a concession to the business lobby to raise the rate more gently... Which by the way was also the demand from anti-minimum wage posters here. And even though the policy was generated by a 3 party wage commission, including the business lobby, the imagined failures of the result are clearly just the fault of the government?

But you see, when something is, after all, done in a reasonable way, the whiners on TVF still need to find an excuse to complain and a reason to blame the gov't for something just because a day with slamming the PTP is like a day without sunshine...

Fine, refuse to answer my question, if you want, which is why you and your tag-team partner are on Ignore with me.

Rant away to yourself instead.

deception and lies are the norm on this forum.

your answer is in my previous post to you and the one above this as well...

[Ricardo]

Yes, Thanks, I did know that.

But right now they're still waiting for the 300B/day immediate universal minimum-wage they were promised pre-election, are they not ?

Ah, so on August 9th 2011 everyone was promised to have 300B / day min wage?

Now I see where the "untruths" begin... which clarifies your (as we now know) purposeful omission of the increase everyone already received.

And it would be far too much to expect that you would consider adding why the delay came about, a concession to the business lobby to raise the rate more gently... Which by the way was also the demand from anti-minimum wage posters here. And even though the policy was generated by a 3 party wage commission, including the business lobby, the imagined failures of the result are clearly just the fault of the government?

But you see, when something is, after all, done in a reasonable way, the whiners on TVF still need to find an excuse to complain and a reason to blame the gov't for something just because a day with slamming the PTP is like a day without sunshine...

Fine, refuse to answer my question, if you want, which is why you and your tag-team partner are on Ignore with me.

Rant away to yourself instead.

deception and lies are the norm on this forum.

your answer is in my previous post to you and the one above this as well...

And still you continue to dodge my question ... while ranting about deception and lies instead.

[tlansford]

- deleted due to the quotation limits in the forum software -

Ah, so on August 9th 2011 everyone was promised to have 300B / day min wage?

Now I see where the "untruths" begin... which clarifies your (as we now know) purposeful omission of the increase everyone already received.

And it would be far too much to expect that you would consider adding why the delay came about, a concession to the business lobby to raise the rate more gently... Which by the way was also the demand from anti-minimum wage posters here. And even though the policy was generated by a 3 party wage commission, including the business lobby, the imagined failures of the result are clearly just the fault of the government?

But you see, when something is, after all, done in a reasonable way, the whiners on TVF still need to find an excuse to complain and a reason to blame the gov't for something just because a day with slamming the PTP is like a day without sunshine...

Fine, refuse to answer my question, if you want, which is why you and your tag-team partner are on Ignore with me.

Rant away to yourself instead.

deception and lies are the norm on this forum.

your answer is in my previous post to you and the one above this as well...

And still you continue to dodge my question ... while ranting about deception and lies instead.

I don't dodge your question, your question is just another way to argue the bogus point that the government is not delivering on the minimum wage promise.

If there were not already a program in place to bring all regions to 300 B as planned, then I would understand the argument, but the deal is done and dusted. The fact that some people don't want to accept that - or just plain ignore that fact so that they can say "look, look, the PTP lied to the Thai people" is a childish, bogus argument.

Face the reality of the situation, ... or don't, and just keep your "gov't broke it's promise" postion, but yours is the position of deception and lies.

[Rosco911]

All well and good pushing the wages up but what happens when the employers decide that they can't support the dead weight of surplus workers ? You only have to go into any of the big stores or malls to see staff playing on their phones or standing around. Guess this isn't a problem at 25 baht an hour but if wages increase and they become a larger part of the company overhead I can see plenty of Thais being made redundant. I had four guys arrive yesterday to fix a phone line/PC problem yesterday. Most anywhere else in the World it was a one man job.

They still took an hour to confirm what I had already told them. Had to show them how to use their TDR too

Unless staff become more efficient, work harder and put some effort into their work I can't see any return for the employers.. And that means trimming the fat to continue making a profit.

This is the same <deleted> the West has been thru. Increase wages, increase the cost of business and then finally price themselves out of the market and manufacturing/business etc moves somewhere cheaper and less regimented. Unless the Thai workforce can offer something that others can't raising wages is a false move.

I could not agree more.

They are now talking about skilled work force, what skilled work force ? I have been advertising in Chiang Mai for 3 months for ten skilled welders. We even pay traveling allowance on top of the salary to try and attract them and still no applicants. We even applied to use Burmese welders but refused because we are BOI registered.

The Thai idea of a skilled worker is a man or woman that can fit 1 wheel nut on a car moving down a production line every ten minutes.

We are forced to employ 4 Thai's for every foreign worker and that is the only reason we employ them at all. Like you say standing around doing F all and playing on mobile phones is the only thing most of them are good at.