Plea For An Isaan Village

[JurgenG]

Thread () moved here following George advise :

To understand what follows, people should know that there is a conflict going on between the forest department and the inhabitants of Wang Nam Khieo because of a disagreement on the boundaries of the National Park. Under the 1981 announcement, part of Wan Nam Khieo district is in the National Park, while the 2000 boundary survey considers all of Wang Nam Khieo is outside of the National Park.

Last week I called a friend in Wang Nam Khieo to enquire about the situation. He told me they try to stay optimistic but the situation is not getting any better. His caretaker has two daughters with young kids, the two daughters have been jobless for quite a while now and they have recently left with their husband to find a job in Bangkok, leaving the caretaker with two young kids, 1 and 3 years old, so the situation has been a bit chaotic lately.

This month a local association invited a couple of members of parliament to explain them the situation and to tell them their side of the story. The press came as well. The locals worst frustration is that so far the press has been very much one sided in favor of the forest department and never made the effort to air their views.. People even tell of trying to send SMS during TV shows about the area but they never appear on the screen. They really have the feeling to be the victims of some form of censure from some higher authority in Bangkok. Unfortunately it seems it’s not only a feeling, but we will come back on that later

My friend told me the local associations will now intensify their action with the parliament and the press in order to inform them about the reality of the situation in the area, which is very much different from what the PR office of the forest department wants us to believe.

So we decided to play our part as well.

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[JurgenG]

First with a little demonstration.

We decided to start from one of the resort that the forest department claims to be in the national park. You can see one of the local representative giving an interview to the press with the big brown sign in the back ground being the claim from the forest department that the resort is on forest ground.

From there, we will take the road to what we believe is the real border of the National Park.

It seems it’s not going to be a short trip, there is a long road in front of us.

The sign on the side of the road is telling us we are in the right direction but obviously we are not yet there.

There we go. On the way we pass the obotor house

Then the old flower market

A village ....

Then we have to drive a couple of kilometers along cultivated fields

Then after 9 km, we finally arrive at the official gate of the National Park

9 Km ! 9 km between the resort that is supposed to encroached on forest land and the official gate of the national park. And in between, we haven’t seen much forest, have we ?

[JurgenG]

Now on the way back, we are going to ride our bicycle on dirt roads parallel to the road we have just followed.

All these pictures have been taken in an area that the forest department claims to be forest ground and belongs to the national park.

There isn’t much of a forest, isn’t it ? Difficult to imagine tigers and wild bears roaming the area at night, right ?

Is it what you imagined when you were reading the press ?

Someone is clearly misleading the public. Why isn’t the press doing its job and shows us the reality on the ground ?

_

[JurgenG]

Because there are consequences. Huge human consequences.

Here is the flower market today.

And how it was less than one year ago

It’s easy to find, it’s just next to the obotor house. Or was just next to the obotor house …

Within 50 km of where we took thes pictures, the area is quickly becoming an economic desert with people leaving “en masse” to find a job in the city. The local school has lost between 50 to 100 kids compared to last year. And then we have the people who left their kids with their grand parents …

We are not talking about a few rich resort owners who have to close door, we are talking about hundreds of people and maybe more who suddenly become jobless and have no other choice than to join the ranks of the unemployed in the big cities. Losses are estimated at more than 300 millions for the low season alone. Is it really what the government has been elected for ?

But the biggest frustration comes from what local resident perceived as a big bias from news organization. And unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be paranoia. With well connected friends we have contacted a number of newspapers and TV stations and it seems there is a will to silence any opposite view of the official version of the forest department.

Why ?

[hansnl]

Look around on the internet and maybe TV about other National Parks and the land that is claimed as theirs.

Then you might get an idea of what is going on......

[jamescollister]

First with a little demonstration.

We decided to start from one of the resort that the forest department claims to be in the national park. You can see one of the local representative giving an interview to the press with the big brown sign in the back ground being the claim from the forest department that the resort is on forest ground.

From there, we will take the road to what we believe is the real border of the National Park.

It seems it’s not going to be a short trip, there is a long road in front of us.

The sign on the side of the road is telling us we are in the right direction but obviously we are not yet there.

There we go. On the way we pass the obotor house

Then the old flower market

A village ....

Then we have to drive a couple of kilometers along cultivated fields

Then after 9 km, we finally arrive at the official gate of the National Park

9 Km ! 9 km between the resort that is supposed to encroached on forest land and the official gate of the national park. And in between, we haven’t seen much forest, have we ?

Afraid you lost my sympathy when you talk about a friend whos caretakers daughters can't find work and here's one of the resorts in the park. This is not about some poor 10 rai farmer who has for genterations farmed the area, but about greedy businessmen who exploited weak corrupt local Government to build illegally.

Did any of these resorts etc get planning permission in the first place. Who did they buy the land from, or did they just take it, while dropping a envelope for the locals to look the other way.

If the land did not have charnote or the charnote was obtained through bribery, they knew full well what was being done was illegal. Jim

[David Peters]

Even though I have lived in Isaan for nearly 30 years, I had no idea where Wang Nam Khieo was. Now I know. Down from Korat on the northeast edge of Khao Yai national park.

As Jim states above, if there isn't a charnote (legal title) or some other form of title deed, the locals haven't got a leg to stand on. It appears that the gates to the National Park were put in that place originally to avoid conflict even though they were, as you say, 9 km from that wooden peg. I would say that the Forestry Dept is probably correct and trees will now be planted to make a National Park.. The Forestry Dept could say,"Well, you locals have now been here for ex number of years and have right of occupation". But they won't say this, as it would set up a precedent for all the other encroachments such as down in Phuket and Ko Samui. In your photos I didn't see any villages as we know of in Issan. I mean villages with 30 or more houses grouped together.. These people must be recent arrivals to get income from the holiday makers and illegally built resorts.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[JurgenG]

Afraid you lost my sympathy when you talk about a friend whos caretakers daughters can't find work and here's one of the resorts in the park. This is not about some poor 10 rai farmer who has for genterations farmed the area, but about greedy businessmen who exploited weak corrupt local Government to build illegally.

Did any of these resorts etc get planning permission in the first place. Who did they buy the land from, or did they just take it, while dropping a envelope for the locals to look the other way.

If the land did not have charnote or the charnote was obtained through bribery, they knew full well what was being done was illegal. Jim

No, it's not about some poor 10 rai farmers, it's about hundreds of them. The local school has lost between 50 to 100 kids since the last terms. It's not greedy business men who put their kids in the local school, trust me.

You ask question and give answers at the same time. But the wrong ones. The reason the people there want the government and the press to listen to them is they can show them the papers you're inquiring about. Which means they have them.

[JurgenG]

Even though I have lived in Isaan for nearly 30 years, I had no idea where Wang Nam Khieo was. Now I know. Down from Korat on the northeast edge of Khao Yai national park.

As Jim states above, if there isn't a charnote (legal title) or some other form of title deed, the locals haven't got a leg to stand on. It appears that the gates to the National Park were put in that place originally to avoid conflict even though they were, as you say, 9 km from that wooden peg. I would say that the Forestry Dept is probably correct and trees will now be planted to make a National Park.. The Forestry Dept could say,"Well, you locals have now been here for ex number of years and have right of occupation". But they won't say this, as it would set up a precedent for all the other encroachments such as down in Phuket and Ko Samui. In your photos I didn't see any villages as we know of in Issan. I mean villages with 30 or more houses grouped together.. These people must be recent arrivals to get income from the holiday makers and illegally built resorts.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong

The land has been clear by government orders 40 years ago because it was a communist hideout a bit too close to Bangkok for comfort. The land was then shared between people who were previously leaving there and landless farmers. The national park was only created in 1981. The locals have right of occupation because they were there first, before the national park was created.

Therefore there is no encroachment on the forest, because there is no more forest for the past 40 years, even before the National Park was created.

When the National Park was created, for reasons that I don't know, it included part of these farmlands. But the local was given titles and assurance they could continue to exploit their land as before. In the year 2000 there was a survey and a new policy was formulated to remove these farmland from the National park. That's based on this survey and policy that all the development have been taking place and that building permits have been issued. Unfortunately, and the reason for all this mess, the policy was never passed into law because, as it was usual at that time, the government was too short lived for that.

Also in the pictures that I posted, there is the obotor house and there is a good reason why I posted this picture. Maybe a number of poster are not very familiar with the administration in Thailand but If there is an obotor house there, it means there are villages (and not only one) that are recognized at national level. I don't think an obotor house makes very much sense in the middle of forest.

A lot of people are victims of the brainwashing from the forest departments but the facts on the ground tell a very different story.

Edited August 22, 2012 by JurgenG

[xen]

Two days ago i travelled along Highway 304 from Pak thong Chai to Kabinburi as i have done on irregular occaison for close to twenty years or so and every time i pass thru the once beautiful rainforested areas i now just see uglyness taking over the area. Sure the road has been improved but a lot of the small markets we used to stop off are now replaced by Bangkok priced coffee shops and imitation natural resorts as if the natural rainforest envirionment needs to be beautified with hidious Thai style landscaping. If it has been 40 years since the government gave the orders to clear the land then i can't remeber it ever looking so mutilatered as it is now. I once had thoughts about living in this area because of it's beauty . I am certianly glad now i did not invest there.

I understand your argument is coming from both an community and economic perspective but the history of the world is written in terms of displacememnt and movement of communities and perhaps for once something for the good of Thailand rather than a few self interested parties on either side needs to prevail.

[bunnydrops]

"Under the 1981 announcement, part of Wan Nam Khieo district is in the National Park, while the 2000 boundary survey considers all of Wang Nam Khieo is outside of the National Park." This part confuses me. It seems that a modern survey would set the boundaries. How did they set the boundaries in the first place? Draw a line in the sand?

[JurgenG]

"Under the 1981 announcement, part of Wan Nam Khieo district is in the National Park, while the 2000 boundary survey considers all of Wang Nam Khieo is outside of the National Park." This part confuses me. It seems that a modern survey would set the boundaries. How did they set the boundaries in the first place? Draw a line in the sand?

In 1981 when they first draw the border of the National park, they included part of Wang Nam Khieo. In 2000, the government conducted a land survey and realized that the borders of 1981 included agricultural lands that have no place in a national park. So they decided to remove these lands from the national park but the government was ousted before it had time to pass the law.Government at that time never survived very long ...

Again I insist that it was not a case of encroaching on forest land. The people who were there were given the right to be there (land titles) after the forest was cleared in the 70's , 10 years before before the creation of the National Park. Why these lands were included in the National Park at the first place, I haven't find out so far.

That's the arguments of the inhabitant of Wang Nam Khieo : since 2000 the government has recognized that a mistake was made when drawing the original borders, and further more they have paper to prove they are entitled to be there.

[JurgenG]

Two days ago i travelled along Highway 304 from Pak thong Chai to Kabinburi as i have done on irregular occaison for close to twenty years or so and every time i pass thru the once beautiful rainforested areas i now just see uglyness taking over the area. Sure the road has been improved but a lot of the small markets we used to stop off are now replaced by Bangkok priced coffee shops and imitation natural resorts as if the natural rainforest envirionment needs to be beautified with hidious Thai style landscaping. If it has been 40 years since the government gave the orders to clear the land then i can't remeber it ever looking so mutilatered as it is now. I once had thoughts about living in this area because of it's beauty . I am certianly glad now i did not invest there.

I understand your argument is coming from both an community and economic perspective but the history of the world is written in terms of displacememnt and movement of communities and perhaps for once something for the good of Thailand rather than a few self interested parties on either side needs to prevail.

I understand your feelings but all the ugly places you're talking about are on the main roads. When you get inland it's a very different story

I have to say that the "outsiders"who bought the farmlands for their personal use generally did a good job to reforest the area.

[Khonwan]

“Unfortunately, and the reason for all this mess, the policy was never passed into law because, as it was usual at that time, the government was too short lived for that.”

“In 2000, the government conducted a land survey and realized that the borders of 1981 included agricultural lands that have no place in a national park. So they decided to remove these lands from the national park but the government was ousted before it had time to pass the law.Government at that time never survived very long”

Let us not forget that the government that considered redrawing the boundary to exclude the agricultural land from the national park was the Democrats under Chuan Leekpai, PM from Nov 1997 to Feb 2001. The government that then did nothing in regards to this issue was Thaksin’s Thai Rak Thai (Feb 2001 to Oct 2006) despite being in power for 5 years 8 months. And it is only when Thaksin’s Pheu Thai government (August 2011 to present) is in power do we see these resorts being demolished.

Ironic.

Despite my remark, I agree that 40 years is a bit late to start reforestation on an area that has been allowed all that time by various governments to persist. That is anything but natural justice.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Khonwan

[JurgenG]

Just a couple of remarks in response to Khonwan post.

It's usually the Chavalit's government who is named in relation to the 2000 survey.

Regarding why the MPs are doing nothing, the main reason we got, the same we received from the press for refusing to cover the villagers defense, is that the cause of the villagers is not popular. Damrong is doing an excellent PR job to paint the villagers as evil encroachers. When the press started reporting about the trouble in Wang Nam Khieo, people who read this forum were already convinced, without having any real information about the subject, that the villagers were guilty.

That's why the villagers are now starting a counter offensive with the media to show the situation is not as simple as some wants us to believe.

I can understand the MPs of all sides. Whatever they say, they will be accused to side with the rich and the powerful. In this debate, greedy businessmen and corrupt official are probably the words that come back the more often. But what about the press ? Nobody asks them to take side, just to report the arguments on both side, to show the documents that the villagers have, to make a little bit of research about the history of the area, to take a couple of pictures about the reality on the ground. Nothing more.

[JurgenG]

I want to apologize to the press, or at least to some journalists who, when given the chance, do an honest job.

The source that cannot be named has published a fairly balanced article last Sunday, Aug 26. I can't provide links as per forum rules but here again google's your best friend, search "Wang Nam Khieo, within the last week"

Now lets hope that open minded negotiation can start between all parties involved.

[JurgenG]

3 month later ...

Just a quick update about the situation in Wang Nam Khieo. A lot of things have changed since I posted this thread, and for the better I have to say.

First early October the government announced that legal action will still go ahead for people who were already prosecuted by the forest department but no new action will be started against people who were not yet on the forest department list. Then earlier this month the government asked the forest department to suspend all legal action until the boundaries of the National Park have been clarified and redrawn according to the 2000 survey (for more details about this subject, please read the posts above). That's a huge relief for all the inhabitants of Wang Nam Khieo who are very happy that common sense has finally prevailed.

According to our local sources, life is back in Wang Nam Khieo and tourism is booming again.

We don't have good news so often that's why I wanted to post the happy ending of this story

[bina]

where is that in relation to soeng sang? im trying to remember if i was there with hubby... some resort type place...with small cabins, lots of high ranking police with their mia nois were there at the same time...

[JurgenG]

where is that in relation to soeng sang? im trying to remember if i was there with hubby... some resort type place...with small cabins, lots of high ranking police with their mia nois were there at the same time...

It's about 50 km west of Soeng Sang. The place is very popular with Thais so it's possible it was there.

The big thing there is the weather, very mild, almost European. It's because we are on top of a small mountain chain that you can see on google map for example. It makes a big difference compared to let say Pak Tong Chai which is only at 40 km but at the bottom of the plain. It takes half an hour to drive from one place to the other but there is easily a difference of 5 - 10 C between the two places. That makes the place really enjoyable for morning walk or bicycle rides. To be honest my favorite activity there is taking the dogs for an hour walk every morning right before breakfast

[weary]

Interesting story Jurgen. Thank you for sharing.

[JurgenG]

Interesting story Jurgen. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you

You can agree with one side or the other. You can have the opinion you want. But at least it should be an informed opinion.