Urgent Help: Advise On Child Custody, Aus Man Thai Woman

[TommoPhysicist]

Every where in the world women are taking children away from their fathers.

I think that's wrong, but it seems I am in the minority to feel that way.

PS

If the ending to this story is true, then I would suggest the father report the mother and brothers for child abduction and conspiracy to abduct a child to the local Australian police. Under both Australian law and international law, Thailand would likely be required to repatriate the child to Australia and return the abductors for trial/arrest. Each of them would be facing five years in Australian jail. This is a very serious offense in Australia, they should have used the courts and due process. Both parents have to give permission for a child to leave the country (without a court order).

Edited August 25, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[tpop]

Every where in the world women are taking children away from their fathers.

I think that's wrong, but it seems I am in the minority to feel that way.

PS

If the ending to this story is true, then I would suggest the father report the mother and brothers for child abduction and conspiracy to abduct a child to the local Australian police. Under both Australian law and international law, Thailand would likely be required to repatriate the child to Australia and return the abductors for trial/arrest. Each of them would be facing five years in Australian jail. This is a very serious offense in Australia, they should have used the courts and due process. Both parents have to give permission for a child to leave the country (without a court order).

Section 317 of the Thailand Criminal Code, which states:

“Whoever, without any reasonable cause, takes away a child not yet over fifteen years of age from the parent, guardian, or person looking after such child, he or she shall be punished with imprisonment of three to fifteen years and fined of six thousand to thirty thousand baht.”

The child has been living with the mother not the father - Thai Law is likely to actually see that he conspired to take the child from the mother - which is precisely what he tried to do

i wonder when you will get it through your thick skull that he lured her here and though all the family warned her that he was not to be trusted she came anyway - because he promised to obtain an engagement visa for her

but he did not do so and played it out until her visa had expired - he then reported that to DIAC and she was granted an extension on the basis she fly out on the 28th

she was being forced to leave without her son by him so that he could use the child to get child welfare

i hardly think the Thai courts would agree with you - though they are signatories to the Hague Convention it has not been codified into Thai law yet so Thai law will take precedence and they are hardly likely to disbelieve the whole family or the fact that the child has spent most of the last 3 years in Thailand

i doubt very much he will do anything for two reasons

1. making a go of something like this takes money and he has shown he will not or can not put money in - only will he seek to get money out

2. he is guilty of his own crimes - he would not be likely to want to have that come out in the proceedings - he is very unlikely to be seen by the Family Court as a suitable parent sufficient to give him precedence over the mother

anyone who looks at the details of this case, other than just feeling sad for the human issues involved, will see a slimebag and i doubt there would be many people who would act in his favour

of course, there will always be someone - officious types who wish to make a name for themselves abound

p

Edited August 25, 2012 by tpop

[TommoPhysicist]

Thai criminal code applies to crime in Thailand.

Australian criminal law applies to crime committed in Australia.

Thailand does not have jurisdiction in this case and must abide by international law.

You say Thai education is good, but if so, how do you not understand which laws apply?

Edited August 25, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[tpop]

Thai criminal code applies to crime in Thailand.

Australian criminal law applies to crime committed in Australia.

Thailand does not have jurisdiction in this case and must abide by international law.

You say Thai education is good, but if so, how do you not understand which laws apply?

the Child and Mother are in Thailand

therefore Thai Law applies - that should seem obvious

if he takes action maybe Australian Law will become involved

i very much doubt he will take any action as i'd not be surprised if he has not himself broken the law

the child was in the care of the mother not the father - he simply tried to prevent her taking the child back - that must be a crime considering how he tried to do it

i hardly think the woman and brothers have broken the law - unless they evaded a court order and so far we have had no evidence that he went through those proceedings - they simply showed they were prepared to break such a law if they had to - and that itself is not a crime as long as no crime was committed in preparation

I do not know if the AFP request was made to see if the child was on the watch list - i do know that she had the necessary information but by the time she was likely to get the results she was already gone

when things have settled down and everyone has had time to recover we'll get on the phone and get more details

p

[Mario2008]

The child is a Thai citizen and from what I have read, the father might be the biological father but according to Thai law he is not the legal father of the child. (Unless he went to the Thai court and asked to be recognised as such, which was approved by a Thai court).

[bankei]

Lots of silly replies above. (I stopped reading on page 1).

Firstly, for a minor child to have an Australian passport both parents need to give permission (even if one parent, or both, is a non citizen). The father could revoke permission perhaps. Contact DFAT re this.

Secondly, a court order can be obtained quickly, an urgent interim order to prevent the child leaving can be made.

Thirdly, the Australian Federal Police administers the placing of pass alerts which are then implemented by Customs/Immigration officers at the airport. You will probably need a Court order to have a pass alert which prevents the departure of a child, but you should call the AFP and speak to someone in the family law team about this. Notify them about both Australia and Thai passports and different names or spellings. Once a pass alert is on it won't matter which state or airport they try to depart from.

4th. If there is a custody dispute the wife may be able to get a bridging visa to enable her to stay in the country.

Then come all the other questions regarding spousal maintenance and property settlements which can be worked out down the track.

Bankei

[bankei]

Every where in the world women are taking children away from their fathers.

I think that's wrong, but it seems I am in the minority to feel that way.

PS

If the ending to this story is true, then I would suggest the father report the mother and brothers for child abduction and conspiracy to abduct a child to the local Australian police. Under both Australian law and international law, Thailand would likely be required to repatriate the child to Australia and return the abductors for trial/arrest. Each of them would be facing five years in Australian jail. This is a very serious offense in Australia, they should have used the courts and due process. Both parents have to give permission for a child to leave the country (without a court order).

How can a parent abduct their own child?

If there were court orders in place preventing a child leaving then there would be an offense, but none if not.

The father could subsequently apply to the courts for custody, but this won't be enforceable overseas unless the Thai laws provide that it is enforceable. Even if it is legally enforceable then there is the practical side of implementing it. Probably a Thai court would have to assess the custody angle from the Thai legal system and make orders for custody. It would be unlikely that they would award custody to a foreign parent who lives overseas.

Japan is renowned for ignoring Australian custody orders even though it is a signatory to the relevant international conventions. Not sure about Thailand.

Bankei

[Will27]

Lots of silly replies above. (I stopped reading on page 1).

Firstly, for a minor child to have an Australian passport both parents need to give permission (even if one parent, or both, is a non citizen). The father could revoke permission perhaps. Contact DFAT re this.

Secondly, a court order can be obtained quickly, an urgent interim order to prevent the child leaving can be made.

Thirdly, the Australian Federal Police administers the placing of pass alerts which are then implemented by Customs/Immigration officers at the airport. You will probably need a Court order to have a pass alert which prevents the departure of a child, but you should call the AFP and speak to someone in the family law team about this. Notify them about both Australia and Thai passports and different names or spellings. Once a pass alert is on it won't matter which state or airport they try to depart from.

4th. If there is a custody dispute the wife may be able to get a bridging visa to enable her to stay in the country.

Then come all the other questions regarding spousal maintenance and property settlements which can be worked out down the track.

Bankei

Perhaps you shouldn't have stopped reading after page 1 then.

Just about all of your points have already been covered if you had bothered

to read on.

Regards

Will

[simple1]

Lots of silly replies above. (I stopped reading on page 1).

Firstly, for a minor child to have an Australian passport both parents need to give permission (even if one parent, or both, is a non citizen). The father could revoke permission perhaps. Contact DFAT re this.

Secondly, a court order can be obtained quickly, an urgent interim order to prevent the child leaving can be made.

Thirdly, the Australian Federal Police administers the placing of pass alerts which are then implemented by Customs/Immigration officers at the airport. You will probably need a Court order to have a pass alert which prevents the departure of a child, but you should call the AFP and speak to someone in the family law team about this. Notify them about both Australia and Thai passports and different names or spellings. Once a pass alert is on it won't matter which state or airport they try to depart from.

4th. If there is a custody dispute the wife may be able to get a bridging visa to enable her to stay in the country.

Then come all the other questions regarding spousal maintenance and property settlements which can be worked out down the track.

Bankei

Perhaps you shouldn't have stopped reading after page 1 then.

Just about all of your points have already been covered if you had bothered

to read on.

Regards

Will

Plus the child has already returned to Thailand

[bankei]

Lots of silly replies above. (I stopped reading on page 1).

Firstly, for a minor child to have an Australian passport both parents need to give permission (even if one parent, or both, is a non citizen). The father could revoke permission perhaps. Contact DFAT re this.

Secondly, a court order can be obtained quickly, an urgent interim order to prevent the child leaving can be made.

Thirdly, the Australian Federal Police administers the placing of pass alerts which are then implemented by Customs/Immigration officers at the airport. You will probably need a Court order to have a pass alert which prevents the departure of a child, but you should call the AFP and speak to someone in the family law team about this. Notify them about both Australia and Thai passports and different names or spellings. Once a pass alert is on it won't matter which state or airport they try to depart from.

4th. If there is a custody dispute the wife may be able to get a bridging visa to enable her to stay in the country.

Then come all the other questions regarding spousal maintenance and property settlements which can be worked out down the track.

Bankei

Perhaps you shouldn't have stopped reading after page 1 then.

Just about all of your points have already been covered if you had bothered

to read on.

Regards

Will

Many of the posts are still incorrect and misleading - which will delude others who stumble upon this thread.

[TwoDogz]

Nice result, well done.

And for those who advised NOT to try and depart with the child,

nuff said.

Regards

Will

Yes congratulations on helping a Thai girl abduct the child of an Australian man.

You should all feel very proud of yourselves ...... and when someone abducts your children .... no sympathy.

Every where in the world women are taking children away from their fathers.

I think that's wrong, but it seems I am in the minority to feel that way.

PS

If the ending to this story is true, then I would suggest the father report the mother and brothers for child abduction and conspiracy to abduct a child to the local Australian police. Under both Australian law and international law, Thailand would likely be required to repatriate the child to Australia and return the abductors for trial/arrest. Each of them would be facing five years in Australian jail. This is a very serious offense in Australia, they should have used the courts and due process. Both parents have to give permission for a child to leave the country (without a court order).

I am agreement of females using one way laws and their 'mothers' right to take kids away from fathers. I would be irrate if it happened to me. But the child had been living and raised by the mother so it seems, so where is this 'taking' and 'abduction' stuff coming from ?

Why did the mother leave the child with the father then if all this was going on and give him the opportunity to put the child into daycare without her knowledge or consent ?

Something smells rotten...even fishy

The child left Oz on a clean new Thai passport ?

How did they prove the childs entry ?

Edited August 26, 2012 by TwoDogz

[TwoDogz]

OP gone quiet on the issue.

[tpop]

OK

this is my final post on this subject

first - i confirm that mother and child have successfully departed - the boy on his Australian Passport - the one he arrived on

second - let me say thanks to all - even the negative posters helped

next

i know that lots of you are going to view this negatively and for that i do apologise - but there was a reason

at one point in the thread i introduced and perpetuated a lie

first the reason

and before that some background

i'm married to a Thai - and we are raising 2 Thai kids. My wife is gregarious and over the years we have gathered a very wide circle of Thai-farange family friends and contacts.

in short we know lots of other farang guys married to Thais

it dawned on me after seeing a few negative views on my initial posts that i had given more than enough information for them to be identified by anyone who knew them sufficiently well

(i did learn later that she knew no Thai-farang couples at all so my lie was not necessary)

and that then frightened me that in posting to this forum i was potentially undermining the whole process we were in

so i introduced a lie (that at least 2 people picked up on but did not probe)

the lie was that she had departed - and all posts subsequent to that were a continuation of that lie - with the intent to mislead anyone who might be on this forum who might possibly know him

in fact she had not

in fact she prevaricated hanging on to threads of hope until Sunday night at which point she ran

although he had actively attempted to completely isolate her from others he had not been successful

a Chinese woman had met her a few weeks ago and struck up a friendship even though the Chinese woman did not know where she lived other than which apartment complex

our Thai woman met her on the street and asked for help - and it was given - the Chinese woman let her use her phone to contact us and that night when he was asleep she took her bag and hid it in the garage

then, in the early morning, she took the boy and ran to where the Chinese woman picked her up at which point she was free for the first time in 5 years to talk openly with us

we asked her what she wanted to do

we all came to the conclusion she should fly to Sydney

the Chinese woman drove them to the airport where we had tickets ready for them

they then flew to Sydney and we picked them up that night

We took them home, showered and fed them and our kids took care of the boy while she slept as she had not slept for almost a week.

The next day we did many things including

1. booked new tickets for them both to Thailand

2. secured a quality immigration solicitor, briefed him on our plans and

3. prepared for the two options she would have if all went well

the options were based on whether or not the boy was on the watch list - we had checked and at the time we booked he was not

we suspect that the father, believing that she had nowhere to go, knew nobody in Australia and had no money, no phone, nothing did not even imagine that she might depart the country with the boy

perhaps also he was scared of the potential costs to himself - we do not know yet

in the morning we drove them to the airport with a new phone so that my wife and her could keep in contact through the exit procedures

when she was through immigration we then reiterated her options:

" you can leave now, safely, with the boy and return to Thailand or you can exit the departure lounge come back out and we will go meet with the lawyer and see how it plays out"

she chose to depart

we have given her enough money to tide her over for the next few months and she will go to her parents place where all of her family will be there to welcome them

we have instructed her not to return to Australia with the boy unless she has a visa which gives her security

she is travelling by mini-bus to Nakhon. When she is home safely we will ring the boy's father and go through the issues with him

ie that he has time to consider both what he has put her through and just how serious he is about his son

if he does the right thing and secures a proper visa for her then there might be a future for them and he will get to see his son grow up and be able to spend time with him - as much as he wishes if he does the right thing by the mother

if he does not then the boy will be raised in Thailand and when he is old enough to decide for himself he can then return to Australia

when she was with us there was a stream of Thai people who came to the house and gave her money

our kids coughed up all their Thai money for her and she burst into tears and confessed to feeling deep shame for never having given them anything

she watched us eating sharing with the friends who came to support and she was shocked to see people sharing just like in Thailand - she had never seen it here in all the 5 years she has known this man

in the time leading up to being processed by immigration all of our hearts were in our mouths for we did not know if he had in the meantime placed the child on the watch list

we did not know how it would play out

it is such a relief to know they are safe

there is much that will follow - as stated we will try and deal with him in whatever way that will lead to best outcome for all

we will investigate what the Australian system has to offer her and the boy while she is in Thailand

that's it for this thread

and again, for misleading people about them having previously departed, i apologise

pop

[Mobi]

There is nothing for you to apologise for.

Your concern has always been for the unfortunate woman and her son and you were perfectly entitled to do whatever was necessary to ensure a happy outcome.

You are to be congratulated for your magnificent and selfless help to your fellow human being, and it was certainly 'far and away beyond the call of duty'.

I doubt whether many of us could have done what you did.

It really is a heart rending story and I do hope that the lady and her son find happiness in their lives.

I for one support your decision not to post anything further and I also recommend that the thread should be closed. It has clearly run its course and no good will be derived by keeping it open to allow people who were not involved to criticise and make snide remarks.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Mobi

[Mario2008]

Unhelpful reply deleted.

Closed as this case has come to end and there is nothing to discuss anymore.