I Updated My Wheels To 17'' From 15'', I'M Feeling That My Brakes Are Not As Efficient As Before

[arthurwait]

Sorry, not convinced this minor difference in circumference/radius will cause a major braking problem IF the correct air pressure for the new tyres is adhered too for the ride.

Interesting disclaimer from the website that I do my tyre size calculations on, in this instance selecting a 205/65/15 vs a 215/55/17.

http://www.1010tires...eCalculator.asp

Brake failure ? How ?

[thailoht]

Hi Guys...just reading this and thought that the "Tire Size Calculator" could be a good thing...but in practice,it may not actually be correct...I've upgraded my wheels on my Audi A4 some time ego and did not have this calculator handy,but the shop didn't see any problems(of course),so since I've liked them,they went on....but I've checked the calculator now and the difference in diameter should be only 24.87" to 25.08"(not going in to details 205/55/15 to 225/40/18)...now,see the photos and tell me if the calculator is right ?...the new wheels/tires look much bigger than that(sorry,but I don't have this car anymore,so can't take the measurements)...

...but interestingly,I haven't noticed a big difference in braking...actually the big tires would make a car to stop on the dime...and turning corners was a snitch...but Audi has Front and Rear disk/ABS brakes...

Your circumstance seems to be just the opposite of ours. If you were starting with O.E., then I would argue that upscale Audi could have been using performance-type brake components whose upper tolerance limits happened to accommodate your upgrade, while our Isuzu models use cheaper lower-limit tolerance components..

[arthurwait]

Sorry, not convinced this minor difference in circumference/radius will cause a major braking problem IF the correct air pressure for the new tyres is adhered too for the ride.

With the OP c/o his brakes not feeling as efficient after his tire size upgrade coupled with the fact that said upgrade surpasses a brake expert's brake malfunction criteria, it seems crystal. On top of the theoretical red line criteria, I am also speaking from experience (and testimony from 2 other owners who had similar upgrades) in that I briefly drove my vehicle after a wheel / tire size upgrade that resulted in an increase of > 3.05% in the tires diameter. It's that lack of brake control experience that drove me (pun intended) to follow the recommendations of this motor forum's expert posters to 'upgrade' my brakes. They were right!

The quality of my braking now, is unsurpassed, in my estimation!

Who are these brake experts ?

Ah yes from their website

the absolute authority on tires and wheels we pride ourselves on having some of the world's leading mechanics as well as wheel and tire experts in-house.

Wow !

[thailoht]

JohanBKK, I hope you post your decision and let us know your results.

[JohanBKK]

I will ask Honda about this situation, maybe they will have something to say.

[arthurwait]

I will ask Honda about this situation, maybe they will have something to say.

If you mean at a dealership they won't have a clue.

It's a 20mm increase in diameter and a 10 mm increase in radius. It really isn't much. The manufacturer will have built a much higher safety factor into the brakes than that and manufacturers fit different size wheels across a range with the same brakes.

Have you checked the state of your brakes, bled them recently ? Even cleaned them. Maybe whoever did your wheels got some grease on the brakes.

Go out tonight and find an empty bit of road and try some emergency stops. See if you really feel there is a difference, but maybe you should allow a few weeks for the new tyres before deciding.

If going for a slightly bigger wheel did lead to brake failure half the cars in Thailand would experience it.

Upgrading your brakes will obviously improve them unless you upgrade to materials/pads that are only good when running at high temperatures only acheived on the race track which when running at cool road temperatures are actually worse than the originals or you get shafted with some copies.

Run the car for a few weeks, give the tyres some time to wear in and see if you still feel the same unless you just want an excuse to spend some money on some new toys.

[WarpSpeed]

Sorry, just couldn't let the nonsense go any longer as BKKJohan asked has an important and potentially costly concern to address..

Johan T/A is partly correct the diameter is not enough to seriously effect braking performance in and of itself, what is not being taken into account here in ANY post so far is better tire grip due to a wider tire when braking and it seems that you may not have expected that either and have in essence glazed your brake rotors by over heating them at some point and now the rotor grip is gone. I can't highlight it but the top number is the real problem (section width), 8.07 versus 8.46 X 4 is a serious change in grip characteristics..

Grease doesn't cause that as a greasy pad actually grips harder but it could have contributed to it over heating, your solution is less expensive, you need to upgrade your brake pads as someone else suggested though to a softer compound likely and now either shave (not recommended) or replace your rotors (recommended) and it's also possible that you boiled the fluid also at the same time contributing to the fade you're likely feeling, so a good bleed and upgrade to DOT 4 fluid is in order if it's not already DOT 4 which is a higher temp fluid..

The OEM brakes are more then sufficient to handle this minimal upgrade in diameter and if you do a costly brake system change, off course you'll get better performance that's not debatable but what is debatable is the necessity for it. Also take note of the red highlighted portion as you are speeding when you think you're going the speed limit as the speedometer is now no longer accurate..

That's it, not open for debate take it or leave it, for what it's worth.. Back to occasional lurking for the comedy value..

Edited August 26, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Hi Guys...just reading this and thought that the "Tire Size Calculator" could be a good thing...but in practice,it may not actually be correct...I've upgraded my wheels on my Audi A4 some time ego and did not have this calculator handy,but the shop didn't see any problems(of course),so since I've liked them,they went on....but I've checked the calculator now and the difference in diameter should be only 24.87" to 25.08"(not going in to details 205/55/15 to 225/40/18)...now,see the photos and tell me if the calculator is right ?...the new wheels/tires look much bigger than that(sorry,but I don't have this car anymore,so can't take the measurements)...

...but interestingly,I haven't noticed a big difference in braking...actually the big tires would make a car to stop on the dime...and turning corners was a snitch...but Audi has Front and Rear disk/ABS brakes...

It's an optical illusion, the tires are not much larger but the rims make it look as if they are as they stand out more and catch your eye..

[funcat]

Hi Guys...just reading this and thought that the "Tire Size Calculator" could be a good thing...but in practice,it may not actually be correct...I've upgraded my wheels on my Audi A4 some time ego and did not have this calculator handy,but the shop didn't see any problems(of course),so since I've liked them,they went on....but I've checked the calculator now and the difference in diameter should be only 24.87" to 25.08"(not going in to details 205/55/15 to 225/40/18)...now,see the photos and tell me if the calculator is right ?...the new wheels/tires look much bigger than that(sorry,but I don't have this car anymore,so can't take the measurements)...

...but interestingly,I haven't noticed a big difference in braking...actually the big tires would make a car to stop on the dime...and turning corners was a snitch...but Audi has Front and Rear disk/ABS brakes...

It's an optical illusion, the tires are not much larger but the rims make it look as if they are as they stand out more and catch your eye..

BS 'Warp Speed"...they were much bigger,just look at the photos..no optical illusion so to speak ...and I was there

[Lickey]

So Funcat, with these huge wide wheels and tyres, did the OP have to remove his front wings to allow the car to steer under heavy braking??or did he have his suspension jacked up which alters brake perfomance by way of the sensors?

I do find it a bit sad that all the so-called experts on this forum havent posted the correct info about so called bigger wheels, IE, steering stops, [regulates how far the wheels can turn without fouling bodywork ect]

Warpy, good to see you posting again !!!!

[BSJ]

Transam was right. The difference in rolling diameter isn't big enough to cause a problem. How about the obviously different tyres? I think the problem is there. Check your pressures....and see if the little arrows are pointing in the right direction.

[JohanBKK]

I drive my car sportively and i'm always braking, i changed my brakes pads 12 000 km ago at Honda.

I will ask them to check the brakes again and change the pads for better ones.

Also, at 120km/h my brakes are really unsufficient, i tried yesterday and it took me a lot of time to stop.

Thanks.

[thailoht]

Run the car for a few weeks, give the tyres some time to wear in and see if you still feel the same unless you just want an excuse to spend some money on some new toys.

Following this advice, the OP could very well 'no longer be among us'! He is having serious braking problems now!!

Sorry, just couldn't let the nonsense go any longer as BKKJohan asked has an important and potentially costly concern to address..

Johan T/A is partly correct the diameter is not enough to seriously effect braking performance in and of itself, what is not being taken into account here in ANY post so far is better tire grip due to a wider tire when braking and it seems that you may not have expected that either and have in essence glazed your brake rotors by over heating them at some point and now the rotor grip is gone. I can't highlight it but the top number is the real problem (section width), 8.07 versus 8.46 X 4 is a serious change in grip characteristics.

As previously stated, just like the OP, I (as well as at least three others with similar vehicles and upgrades) have experienced similar loss of braking power immediately following a > 3.05% increase in tire diameter ..... that is the real! This sudden loss of braking power was not due to tire pressure, at least in the four separate instances that I have followed. In each of these instances, as soon as we at least upgraded our rotors (discs) to a larger size, the problem was solved, though some of the four upgraded their calipers and even went so far as to convert the rear drum brakes to discs (which in itself solved the 'loss of braking power' situation).

Based on these four real-life actual instances, a brake upgrade, probably rotors (discs) and calipers, is called for.

I drive my car sportively and i'm always braking, i changed my brakes pads 12 000 km ago at Honda.

I will ask them to check the brakes again and change the pads for better ones.

Also, at 120km/h my brakes are really unsufficient, i tried yesterday and it took me a lot of time to stop.

Thanks.

I would hurry up and get the problem resolved before something serious happens .... the Honda dealer is not the answer (as you will learn), you will have to visit a reputable brake shop(s).

[Jitar]

Johan

Who ever checks your brakes can do a simple test on an empty bit of road with reasonable grip to help work out where the problem is. Braking hard from medium speed should either lock the front wheels (if no ABS) or initiate the ABS. If either of these occur and the car stays straight and smooth, the brakes should be OK.

If the front wheels will not lock up (without ABS) or the ABS does not act when braking very hard, the braking torque is insufficient. If the tyre overall diameter increased when the 17" wheels were added, it may have contributed but there maybe something else wrong as well, (brake booster, glazed/worn linings, brake fluid etc).

If your car has ABS the brake pedal will shudder or vibrate when the ABS works. If the ABS works but braking is poor then something else is wrong (crap tyres, slippery road etc).

[culicine]

When I went from 15 to 17" I kept the overall diameter about the same and found no difference in braking ability (honda civic, similar to the OP's accord). If there is a real difference in braking it sounds like it's due to the increased diameter. I would suggest getting the right diameter or getting an expansion kit with larger rotors. Runstop have them = 320/330 mm, I think about 7000 baht. Use the same calipers with better performing brake pads. I think that might fix the problem, unless there is some other underlying cause of the braking issue.

[WarpSpeed]

So Funcat, with these huge wide wheels and tyres, did the OP have to remove his front wings to allow the car to steer under heavy braking??or did he have his suspension jacked up which alters brake perfomance by way of the sensors?

I do find it a bit sad that all the so-called experts on this forum havent posted the correct info about so called bigger wheels, IE, steering stops, [regulates how far the wheels can turn without fouling bodywork ect]

Warpy, good to see you posting again !!!!

Cheers and unexpected, it isn't going to be anything regular though this place stresses me out and I've got to many important things going on right now, but again thanks for the mention.. BTW it's not even so much the motor forum that stresses me as much as the unmentionables and other forums they oversee and related posters.. In this case though I had to set something straight for the benefit of another member with a genuine concern he can take it or leave it for what it's worth I'm not going to get into slinging contest, that serves no one, I know what I know and I'll leave it at that..

[WarpSpeed]

I drive my car sportively and i'm always braking, i changed my brakes pads 12 000 km ago at Honda.

I will ask them to check the brakes again and change the pads for better ones.

Also, at 120km/h my brakes are really unsufficient, i tried yesterday and it took me a lot of time to stop.

Thanks.

Johann do you know what the characteristics of glazed rotors are and what one looks like? Don't just ask them to look at the pads or the rotors it'll go right over their heads ask for softer pads and make sure the rotors aren't glazed visually but what you're describing sounds exactly like glazed rotors and you can do that 5 minutes after new shoes or rotors are put on (in fact that's usually when it happens as they haven't been bedded in yet) and anytime thereafter especially if you drive like you say as that's my style as well, it only takes one time for you to brake really hard and overheat them and then from that point on they never grip as well, especially at speed..

If they're glazed they'll be shiny and smooth instead of a rough, dull looking surface get a pad that is 50-50 metallic and organic.. likely you have metallic OEM, your pads will wear out quicker but it won't overheat your rotors as much nor chew them up..

[WarpSpeed]

Sorry, just couldn't let the nonsense go any longer as BKKJohan asked has an important and potentially costly concern to address..

Johan T/A is partly correct the diameter is not enough to seriously effect braking performance in and of itself, what is not being taken into account here in ANY post so far is better tire grip due to a wider tire when braking and it seems that you may not have expected that either and have in essence glazed your brake rotors by over heating them at some point and now the rotor grip is gone. I can't highlight it but the top number is the real problem (section width), 8.07 versus 8.46 X 4 is a serious change in grip characteristics.

As previously stated, just like the OP, I (as well as at least three others with similar vehicles and upgrades) have experienced similar loss of braking power immediately following a > 3.05% increase in tire diameter ..... that is the real! This sudden loss of braking power was not due to tire pressure, at least in the four separate instances that I have followed. In each of these instances, as soon as we at least upgraded our rotors (discs) to a larger size, the problem was solved, though some of the four upgraded their calipers and even went so far as to convert the rear drum brakes to discs (which in itself solved the 'loss of braking power' situation).

Based on these four real-life actual instances, a brake upgrade, probably rotors (discs) and calipers, is called for.

Like I said I'm not going to debate it but I addressed your posts already in detail in my OP so re-reading and comprehension would serve you well..Beginning with the fact that I never mentioned the contentious topic of pressures, not even once, I did mention diameter less then width however and did mention the obvious topic of brake upgrading solving ANY issue but not being necessarily necessary..

You haven't 'solved' the problem you only went around it and spent considerably more money then was probably necessary based on what others told you you needed and of course it goes without saying that an entire brake upgrade will pretty much 'solve' any braking problem, BUT at a considerable cost..

Edited August 27, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[arthurwait]

So Funcat, with these huge wide wheels and tyres, did the OP have to remove his front wings to allow the car to steer under heavy braking??or did he have his suspension jacked up which alters brake perfomance by way of the sensors?

I do find it a bit sad that all the so-called experts on this forum havent posted the correct info about so called bigger wheels, IE, steering stops, [regulates how far the wheels can turn without fouling bodywork ect]

Warpy, good to see you posting again !!!!

Perhaps because he is quite capable of noticing that himself.

[VocalNeal]

Johan,

Did you do any relative testing before the wheel change? Are you driving quicker now than you did before? How much worse do you think it is? Does car have ABS? Did you witness the work? Stranger things have happened than someone taking your 12,000 kms equipment off and replaced it with their 25,000kms equipment on their hopped up Jazz,out back.

As TransAm says (I worked it out the hard way) a 10mm increase in the radius will not effect overall performance in a like-for-like situation.

Many manufacturers have different optional wheel/tire packages ie 15 to 17 and judging by the price it does not include a brake upgrade.

Take it to a reputable brake place or back to Honda and ask them to check your brakes. Do not mention upgrade or the like and see what they say.

With car cold stick you hand behind the front wheel and run a finger nail across the disk if it is smooth then likely OK if rough at minimum they need to be skimmed. Pads can only be checked by removing.

[thailoht]

Sorry, just couldn't let the nonsense go any longer as BKKJohan asked has an important and potentially costly concern to address..

Johan T/A is partly correct the diameter is not enough to seriously effect braking performance in and of itself, what is not being taken into account here in ANY post so far is better tire grip due to a wider tire when braking and it seems that you may not have expected that either and have in essence glazed your brake rotors by over heating them at some point and now the rotor grip is gone. I can't highlight it but the top number is the real problem (section width), 8.07 versus 8.46 X 4 is a serious change in grip characteristics.

As previously stated, just like the OP, I (as well as at least three others with similar vehicles and upgrades) have experienced similar loss of braking power immediately following a > 3.05% increase in tire diameter ..... that is the real! This sudden loss of braking power was not due to tire pressure, at least in the four separate instances that I have followed. In each of these instances, as soon as we at least upgraded our rotors (discs) to a larger size, the problem was solved, though some of the four upgraded their calipers and even went so far as to convert the rear drum brakes to discs (which in itself solved the 'loss of braking power' situation).

Based on these four real-life actual instances, a brake upgrade, probably rotors (discs) and calipers, is called for.

Like I said I'm not going to debate it but I addressed your posts already in detail in my OP so re-reading and comprehension would serve you well..Beginning with the fact that I never mentioned the contentious topic of pressures, not even once, I did mention diameter less then width however and did mention the obvious topic of brake upgrading solving ANY issue but not being necessarily necessary..

You haven't 'solved' the problem you only went around it and spent considerably more money then was probably necessary based on what others told you you needed and of course it goes without saying that an entire brake upgrade will pretty much 'solve' any braking problem, BUT at a considerable cost..

Hey Warpspeed, I too am glad to see you are back here posting!

And, no-no-no, I was not indicating that you mentioned pressures or larger diameters, (which you clearly didn't), but rather earlier posters. I was only trying to emphasize your point that 'JohanBKK raised an important concern', and direct the focus on posting resolutions to his issue.

With the abrupt loss of about half of this thread's knowledgeable and experienced regular posters - MRO & Katabeachbum - poor 'ole Transam and others have been trying to hold up this ship.

That's why the (at least) 2 instant 'Welcome backs!': The 'Good Guys' and good advice are always appreciated, if not always outwardly acknowledged. I, for one, surely have learned and am indebted for the knowledge I have gained on this forum.

BTW, don't you have a pickup truck, Toyota or was it a Dmax?

[arthurwait]

Run the car for a few weeks, give the tyres some time to wear in and see if you still feel the same unless you just want an excuse to spend some money on some new toys.

Following this advice, the OP could very well 'no longer be among us'! He is having serious braking problems now!!

Sorry, just couldn't let the nonsense go any longer as BKKJohan asked has an important and potentially costly concern to address..

Johan T/A is partly correct the diameter is not enough to seriously effect braking performance in and of itself, what is not being taken into account here in ANY post so far is better tire grip due to a wider tire when braking and it seems that you may not have expected that either and have in essence glazed your brake rotors by over heating them at some point and now the rotor grip is gone. I can't highlight it but the top number is the real problem (section width), 8.07 versus 8.46 X 4 is a serious change in grip characteristics.

As previously stated, just like the OP, I (as well as at least three others with similar vehicles and upgrades) have experienced similar loss of braking power immediately following a > 3.05% increase in tire diameter ..... that is the real! This sudden loss of braking power was not due to tire pressure, at least in the four separate instances that I have followed. In each of these instances, as soon as we at least upgraded our rotors (discs) to a larger size, the problem was solved, though some of the four upgraded their calipers and even went so far as to convert the rear drum brakes to discs (which in itself solved the 'loss of braking power' situation).

Based on these four real-life actual instances, a brake upgrade, probably rotors (discs) and calipers, is called for.

I drive my car sportively and i'm always braking, i changed my brakes pads 12 000 km ago at Honda.

I will ask them to check the brakes again and change the pads for better ones.

Also, at 120km/h my brakes are really unsufficient, i tried yesterday and it took me a lot of time to stop.

Thanks.

I would hurry up and get the problem resolved before something serious happens .... the Honda dealer is not the answer (as you will learn), you will have to visit a reputable brake shop(s).

Looks like he made it.

[WarpSpeed]

Sorry, just couldn't let the nonsense go any longer as BKKJohan asked has an important and potentially costly concern to address..

Johan T/A is partly correct the diameter is not enough to seriously effect braking performance in and of itself, what is not being taken into account here in ANY post so far is better tire grip due to a wider tire when braking and it seems that you may not have expected that either and have in essence glazed your brake rotors by over heating them at some point and now the rotor grip is gone. I can't highlight it but the top number is the real problem (section width), 8.07 versus 8.46 X 4 is a serious change in grip characteristics.

As previously stated, just like the OP, I (as well as at least three others with similar vehicles and upgrades) have experienced similar loss of braking power immediately following a > 3.05% increase in tire diameter ..... that is the real! This sudden loss of braking power was not due to tire pressure, at least in the four separate instances that I have followed. In each of these instances, as soon as we at least upgraded our rotors (discs) to a larger size, the problem was solved, though some of the four upgraded their calipers and even went so far as to convert the rear drum brakes to discs (which in itself solved the 'loss of braking power' situation).

Based on these four real-life actual instances, a brake upgrade, probably rotors (discs) and calipers, is called for.

Like I said I'm not going to debate it but I addressed your posts already in detail in my OP so re-reading and comprehension would serve you well..Beginning with the fact that I never mentioned the contentious topic of pressures, not even once, I did mention diameter less then width however and did mention the obvious topic of brake upgrading solving ANY issue but not being necessarily necessary..

You haven't 'solved' the problem you only went around it and spent considerably more money then was probably necessary based on what others told you you needed and of course it goes without saying that an entire brake upgrade will pretty much 'solve' any braking problem, BUT at a considerable cost..

Hey Warpspeed, I too am glad to see you are back here posting!

And, no-no-no, I was not indicating that you mentioned pressures or larger diameters, (which you clearly didn't), but rather earlier posters. I was only trying to emphasize your point that 'JohanBKK raised an important concern', and direct the focus on posting resolutions to his issue.

With the abrupt loss of about half of this thread's knowledgeable and experienced regular posters - MRO & Katabeachbum - poor 'ole Transam and others have been trying to hold up this ship.

That's why the (at least) 2 instant 'Welcome backs!': The 'Good Guys' and good advice are always appreciated, if not always outwardly acknowledged. I, for one, surely have learned and am indebted for the knowledge I have gained on this forum.

BTW, don't you have a pickup truck, Toyota or was it a Dmax?

Cheers Thai I hadn't really read it that way.. Anyway no trucks in this house, The only truck I'll ever own is to tow my race cars, I've a car and uprated my wheels from 14" to 16" with no issues to speak of not discounting a dramatic increase in diameter as some have mentioned but in Johans case it's not that dramatic.. Once you start getting into sizes well above the OEM diameter it's certain brakes are going to be an issue due to rolling resistance and momentum when braking, especially threshold braking.. JFYI Uprating tire sizes can also throw out the ABS settings in some cases if one HAS ABS...

OP another thing I failed to mention is that a lower profile tire is going to behave differently when braking hard being a stiffer sidewall it breaks loose easier when the brakes are stomped on so a gentler, lighter foot is necessary if all else is working properly, by that I mean smoother, more gradual, consistent pressure applied instead of sudden jabs whenever possible so the driver has to adjust accordingly as well, anticipate sooner.. The car was built simple stupid and now you've thrown more driver into the mix by uprating performance which requires more driver input and understanding.

Edited August 27, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Hi Guys...just reading this and thought that the "Tire Size Calculator" could be a good thing...but in practice,it may not actually be correct...I've upgraded my wheels on my Audi A4 some time ego and did not have this calculator handy,but the shop didn't see any problems(of course),so since I've liked them,they went on....but I've checked the calculator now and the difference in diameter should be only 24.87" to 25.08"(not going in to details 205/55/15 to 225/40/18)...now,see the photos and tell me if the calculator is right ?...the new wheels/tires look much bigger than that(sorry,but I don't have this car anymore,so can't take the measurements)...

...but interestingly,I haven't noticed a big difference in braking...actually the big tires would make a car to stop on the dime...and turning corners was a snitch...but Audi has Front and Rear disk/ABS brakes...

It's an optical illusion, the tires are not much larger but the rims make it look as if they are as they stand out more and catch your eye..

BS 'Warp Speed"...they were much bigger,just look at the photos..no optical illusion so to speak ...and I was there

I stand with my post they're wider as predicted but not much in diameter, you needed to put them on top of each other and take a picture from the top to see the real difference and you're also comparing new tires with obviously worn ones so times that tread loss by 4 to account for all sides and your diameter has not increased much at all.. There's at least 3 to 4 mm difference in tread depth between those tires if not more and what is the pressure in both? Accounts for more diameter, no doubt it's not identical or equivalent of what should be in them..

[transam]

The old tyres and the new''stated'' tyre sizes are only around 20 cms more in diameter, don't care about photos, the ''stated'' tyre size is what is being discussed here.

[arthurwait]

@ funcat.

A hand calculation of your tyres;

Originals: 606.5mm or 23.87 inch

New : 637.2 mm or 25.09 inch.

[arthurwait]

TA likes a WS post.

Group hug everyone.

[JohanBKK]

Thanks all.

[bino]

You will have most likely raised the unsprung weight

This is the correct answer. Even a small change in unsprung weight - a kilo - makes a big difference. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably heavier, it will affect braking and steering. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably lighter, it makes a huge difference (improvement) in performance and handling.

I'd suggest that the OP put an old and a new wheel on his bathroom scale.

[WarpSpeed]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................