Farang Men Who Have Healthy Relationships With Thai Men

[ProThaiExpat]

Dukkha: We all gain impressions from others posts that leave us with lingering conclusions, that are not always accurate, and I was just curious what "slip" I had made in my many posts that would have led to a conclusion as to my age.

In fact, upon reflection, I have indicated my partners age and in other posts spoke of our age gap, so would not be surprised if someone had figured it out. I care not about that.

Some in this forum pay a great deal more attention to who is posting and not about what they are posting. Similar modes of behaviour occur in the workplace where true professionals leave their personal life at home while others bring it to the office.

Just an aside. No point being made. I restrict my interest in this forum to the substance of the posts and not to whom has written them, unless I am personally attacked, which is rare, as my posts are about concepts, ideas and observations of people in general, not individual posters.

This "approach" to posting is difficult, when I know the poster personally and his partner as well. Just my way of doing things. I highly respect those in this forum who "take on" offensive posters and "put them right". While I am increasingly militant in defense of gay civil rights, it has been slow coming and the many "in your face gays" should be creditied for the marked gains in this area in my lifetime.

[Guest endure]

Endure at times I really don't understand where you are coming from. You appear very reluctant to open up and express anything about yourself or your relationship and then label others who ask a simple question about it. This is not the first time you have said something about me, I think the first time was called a troll and now I’m being judgmental.

I've never called you a troll because I don't think you are and never have done. I made a little joke in your 'Am I a troll' thread but I've never called you a troll. I do think you are judgmental in that you seem to compare other people's situations to some ideal that you hold in your head and if it doesn't measure up you can be quite dismissive.

The reason that I appear reluctant to 'open up' as you say is that I believe that it serves no purpose and can often be counterproductive. When I first met the bf I was a typical westerner, excessively analytical of any and all situations that came along. He used to admonish me with that little phrase that you've probably heard too - 'You think too much'. Four simple words that are far more profound that they at first appear. I thought a great deal about 'You think too much' and discovered that he was right. It took a lot of hard work but nowadays I no longer 'think too much' and I'm much happier for it. I recommend it to you as a means to reach the most aspired to of Thai places - the land of jai yen yen

[DUMPSTER]

I still cannot see how I can be judgmental when all I am doing is asking for another’s take on life. If after hearing another’s view I then judge that person then you can say I am being judgmental. I would call it more like comparing ones experiences with another’s and seeing how we can learn and improve our lives, hopefully for the better. I cannot say my way is right and yours is wrong or vice versa. It's all about understanding, learning and moving on to the next issue we face in our daily lives.

You are entititled, of course, not to participate in that where as others like PTE and duhkka have shown you can express your experiences and help others to see a different perspective without being judged. I, and I’m sure others, have appreciated that.

As for thinking too much, yes I have had this said to me on many occasions and I agree at times I do think too much. That said on other occasions I wish Thais would think a bit more.

[Ijustwannateach]

Buki: Excellent Question!

TPXP: Excellent and accurate post.

"Steven"

[dukkha]

PTE, hope there is no further confusion regarding age....appreciate your reply and of course its contents. Dukkha

Dumpster thank you for your kind words...as an old gay activist from the late 70's have been involved with lotza of stuff community wise and finally got burn out..however with a new lease of life here in LOS am happy to share any reflections that are constructive to all of us who are participating in this forum....that you express your appreciation of some of my posts is truly affirmative and encouraging, it took many years to finally make the step to post on this forum and since doing so it has been, mostly, a rewarding and interesting experience...I am always commented upon for 'thinking too much' but now ignore it...the cultural difference is there but for me intellectual stimulation is as important as erotic stimulation, the latter somewhat waning with the years...he he he he ...am so glad that people are getting something out of this thread as was not too sure what to expect with the title I chose but think it now speaks for itself...many thanks to all for continued support, participation and enthusiasm....jai yen yen folks Dukka

[DUMPSTER]

I think it's been an excellent thread and I've enjoyed reading the posts.

(I'm waiting for your next one)

In the beginning I thought LDR were unhealthy, mainly through my own negative experience of one, but it really depends on those who are participating in such relationships to determine if it is healthy for them or not. I personally wouldn't enter such a relationship again but that doesn't mean to say I think they are unhealthy. Obviously it works for some and they are happy and at the end of the day that's all that matters.

[sjaak327]

I think it's been an excellent thread and I've enjoyed reading the posts.

(I'm waiting for your next one)

In the beginning I thought LDR were unhealthy, mainly through my own negative experience of one, but it really depends on those who are participating in such relationships to determine if it is healthy for them or not. I personally wouldn't enter such a relationship again but that doesn't mean to say I think they are unhealthy. Obviously it works for some and they are happy and at the end of the day that's all that matters.

Exactly. At first I didn’t think my LDR would work out. I gave it a chance anyway and I really have to say that I don’t have any regrets whatsoever. I’m very happy and so is my BF. Of course to make it perfect would mean to be together all the time, not just two months a year. My BF is very keen on going to that phase, I’m still a little reluctant. I guess that my BF is more mature in this field then I am (even though I’m 34 and he is 26). But my doubts are fuelled by the fact that to be together one of us will have to move. Now I would love to live in Bangkok (love the city), but that would mean giving up a great job and finding a new one (which I guess won’t be easy). Also the other way around will not be easy. First you have to take the hurdle of immigration, then after that my BF would be allowed to stay with me for 3 months (in which employment for him is out of the question). That worries me a little. Also after the final hurdle (staying permanently) he still has to learn the language and only after that he would be able to find work. Now my BF is a cook and really loves to work in the kitchen. Of course that won’t be happening for quite a while, if he comes to live with me.

So even though I would love to live with him permanently, I see some real hurdles.

Well time will tell I guess. For the time being I just come to Bangkok at least twice a year, to enjoy his company.

[dukkha]

Dumpster, you are indeed a refreshing support to me...the tyranny of distance is never an easy course to follow and guess that is why I have chosen to make LOS my home...Sam has no interest in relocating to Awstrayia and is certainly not on my agenda...We are making the best of what we are able to do here and thus far things are unfolding without too much angst or drama..we have a wonderful place where we live here on the beach at Hua Hin and Sam is studying hairdressing( please no guffaws about gay men and that trade )...it is what he wanted to do and I have been able to make that possible for him, a refreshing change from his 14 years of factory grind in Bangkok for a woeful monthly wage as you would imagine...what I am trying to say is that it was a difficult time in adjusting to thai culture and all that entails in committing to a relationship with a much younger thai man whose background has been one of poverty and deprivation, at the risk of introducing my own background of 5 years studying for the catholic priesthood and all that you can imagine that entailed and the scars it left, in addition to being the only child of a loveless marriage for 10 years before the birth of a brother....enuff I must stop as I am not using this forum as a therapuetic means but rather to share with others the ups and downs that we encounter as foreigners living here...the small contribution that I am able to make is given with generosity of heart and humility...not here to blow any trumpets but to enable all of us to make some sense of the existential dilemma that is our lot as mere mortals...continued thanks to all who are making an effort to share their own stories without judgement or taking any moral high ground...my only wish is that this thread I have begun allows us all to speak freely and with compassion about those whom we meet in the journney and at not time is it my intention to make any quotations of a scriptural nature rather would be more comfortable coming from a humanist angle...so glad that this thread is providing people with some stimulation/reflection/freedom to speak...

Dukkha

[dukkha]

Apologies if this seems off the topic, but I do remember a discussion on 'dating' in one of the threads. and maybe not this one however here is something interesting I read this morning on a site www.aldaily.com which I find a truly amzing site for its intellectual presentation and alternative points of view...quote is this:

'Dating presents itself as an education in human relationships. In fact its an anti-education. You could invent no more worse preparation for love, for committment, than the tireless pursuit of the perfect partner. Keep looking says dating. Your'e not done yet. What about that one? And that one? Dating, like the tyrant, seeks perfection ( within a certain price range ). Whereas the heart, like the eye, can only cling to imperfection....I really liked this assessment and of course it seems to be a core concept in our lives as gay men as we search for a mate, just wanted to see what you think...you can check more out on this article at www.aldaily.com in the far right hand side column a few paragraphs down...sorry my computa skills do not warrant cut and paste from a site...yet..

Dukkha

[Buki]

Exactly. At first I didn’t think my LDR would work out. I gave it a chance anyway and I really have to say that I don’t have any regrets whatsoever. I’m very happy and so is my BF. Of course to make it perfect would mean to be together all the time, not just two months a year. My BF is very keen on going to that phase, I’m still a little reluctant. I guess that my BF is more mature in this field then I am (even though I’m 34 and he is 26). But my doubts are fuelled by the fact that to be together one of us will have to move. Now I would love to live in Bangkok (love the city), but that would mean giving up a great job and finding a new one (which I guess won’t be easy). Also the other way around will not be easy. First you have to take the hurdle of immigration, then after that my BF would be allowed to stay with me for 3 months (in which employment for him is out of the question). That worries me a little. Also after the final hurdle (staying permanently) he still has to learn the language and only after that he would be able to find work. Now my BF is a cook and really loves to work in the kitchen. Of course that won’t be happening for quite a while, if he comes to live with me.

So even though I would love to live with him permanently, I see some real hurdles.

Well time will tell I guess. For the time being I just come to Bangkok at least twice a year, to enjoy his company.

LDR are definitely hard. It is depressing as well. I find if difficult to be away from my partner even for a couple of months. But when circumstances requires us to be away, we dont have a choice. But the good side of the distance is the aknowledgement and the reflection that both parties love each other and that both need each other to make each one complete. really cheesy right? but there is truth to it.

I like your post, because is quite similar to my situation now. I am here and he is back home. I had to endure two months being away but he will be arriving on Monday, next week to be with me. He is an aspiring chef as well and loves to cook.

Since we are talking about LDR, I had an entry about it in my online journal. I would like to share my thoughts with you, if you guys are ok with it. thanks

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mood:

I was in the same predicament three years ago. But this time, I was the one who had to be far away. It is the same number of months of separation but this time, we are countries apart. It was easier then, when I was in another island in the Philippines, where I can make one conscious decision of calling him through his mobile that on a daily basis or just with impulsive decision of going home either by boat or plane, would have been done with a click of a finger. But not this time, it is rather impossible and implausible.

Correct me if I am wrong, I see that the proportionality of the length of time away and the longevity of the relationships does in fact have significance. If you have been together for the longest time (together in a daily basis) brings greater pain of loneliness even for a VERY short span of being away. People would say, “What’s the fuzz with just two months?” I tell you, the two months apart is a dagger in the heart for a person such as me. I, who have dedicated my whole six good years of existence to someone who I want to be with in every morning and afternoon of everyday of my life.

Each day is such a torment. I have begun counting days, as if I was a prisoner doing time and to be set freed on a date, which I feel is sooo far to arrive. It could have been a lot better when I have friends to physically attach to and talk when loneliness strikes but even with good friends, emptiness is still deep and hollow; not even a good laugh and bottle of beer can fill that all up.

But the better part about the distance is knowing that I really DO love him. Knowing that I am incomplete and he is the other part of me. Knowing that HE is also thinking of me and feels the same way… the same torment and the same longing. Knowing that we are really meant for each other.

And knowing that, like three years ago, by the time we would be together… the embraces and kisses brings greater meaning and joyful expectations. Soon my loneliness and emptiness will just fade and will sip into the gutters, and by that time I shall be wearing a smile from ear to ear, holding hands as we walk down the busy streets.

I await that.

But now, all I can be is misery at its best.

-----------------------------------------------

These were my thoughts 4 weeks ago being alone here in BKK and missing the one person that you really love. The very reason I am not into LDRs.

[dukkha]

Good that you can spill it out on the page...think journals are an important part of therapy..I have kept them for 30 years, but who's counting....only the OLD....

[boybrat]

my previous relationship was a long distance one that lasted from feb 2002 and ended in october 2004. we met in sydney during the mardi gras and clicked immediately. then came the terrible process of travelling back and forth. it definitely burnt a huge hole in my pocket cos tickets to london are not cheap, and i was a teacher then so my earnings were not spectacular. of course, my ex volunteered to pay for the tix tho i refused outright.

it was doomed from the start. despite the fact we both like partying, we were two very different people. he lives in london and held a very senior management position in an mnc despite his young age. lives in a very swanky chelsea townhouse and leads a coke-snorting, champagne guzzling kind of life. he earned more in a month than what i did in a year. i was well, just me. and on my first visit, i was dazzled by it all.

personality wise, he's a dreamer and im the pragmatic sort. he's a romantic, im a realist. he came from the school of hard knocks, i was more booksmart. however, both of us were go-getters with very strong personalities. lesson learnt: sparks will fly when 2 strong people are in a relationship together. the quarrels we had were spectacular.

we were in contact with each other every day. it was great. then reality set in when he wanted me to move to london, that was the start of the crumble.i told him that i did not want to commit to that idea until i manage to get myself a good job in london. the reason behind my refusal was cos i didnt want to be a liability if i were to more to london. if i were to quit my job, quit my university course, and leave my friends and family behind, i would be making a huge gamble. the stakes were extremely high.

there were a lot of "what ifs". the main one being : if i were to move to london, and could not find a job AND we were to break up and he wanted me out of his home, what would i do next? i would have to return home with my tail between my legs and start from scratch. re-enrol into the same course, re-apply for another job, etc. of course my ex was livid that i even suggested that there was a possibility that we could break up. but hey, nothing lasts forever (and you should know by now that we did indeed break up)

of course, he told me that he earned enough to support us both but the idea of someone supporting me financially is just ICKY. i wanted to live by my rules and not depend on the charity of others.

push came to shove. we started to quarrel more and more over the fone. the final straw came during my final visit in june 2004. i knew that it was the end. there were a few rather ugly scenes (will not go into details there) and i made up my mind that i did not want him to join me in new york over xmas that year.

october came that year, and ten minutes before making my presentation, he phoned to call it quits and that was that.

my attempt at a long distance relationship crashed and burnt. we tried. and we failed. rather sad, that.

[Scott123]

I guess everyone has his own definition of "healthy relationship".

If you think yours is healthy, then it is.

[toptuan]

I guess everyone has his own definition of "healthy relationship".

If you think yours is healthy, then it is.

Hate to be a dissenter here, but how could you make such a blanket generalization?

IMO, it's a "feel-good" statement, but doesn't hold water. What about an abused spousal relationship? Manipulative relationships? Co-dependencies?

Call me narrow-minded, but people have lost their lives following that kind of logic.

I had to endure two months being away but he will be arriving on Monday, next week to be with me.

Didn't expect any more postings from Buki for at least a couple weeks! But a search of his postings shows he's keeping life balanced. Hope the reunion was everything you hoped for and more!

[Guest endure]

It would be nice to know what was meant by 'healthy relationship' when this thread was first started. I suspect that it meant 'a relationship with someone who is well educated and not an (ex)barboy'.

[PeaceBlondie]

Dukkha can speak for himself, but I never imagined that education was a factor in having a healthy relationship. Nor that socio-economic class was a factor. I carried on a one year LTR with somebody who finished sixth grade (P6), but he could read and write Thai, was a real hotel manager, and fairly fluent in English, but had never been a barboy, and came from very modest economic background.

Education is a plus, almost always, almost everywhere. But it is surely not a necessity, in my opinion.

[Guest endure]

I have to admit that, to me, the phrase 'healthy relationship with Thai men' reeks of middle class snobbery. It states that there's such a thing as a 'healthy relationship' thus implying that any relationship which is not 'healthy' is second rate. Who judges these relationships? Who decides whether they're 'healthy'?

[PeaceBlondie]

I doubt we'd all agree what a 'healthy relationship' is, any more than you can really define 'dysfunctional family.' Perhaps Scott123 was saying that if both partners were happy and well adjusted in the relationship, it's healthy (assuming one of them isn't beating the other to a pulp).

One needn't feel second class or a failure to be in a failing relationship. You do your best, try to make it work, and finally you get the h.ell out of Dodge and go find a healthier relationship.

[jdinasia]

Guess I am suffering from "middle class snobbery" because you can read quite clearly through many threads in this sub-forum that there are some EXTREMELY unhealthy relationships out there.

However, there are some rapid litmus tests one can do to look at one's own relationship objectively (or subjectively .. it is a personal thing afterall).

Does being with this guy engender good feelings or not? ie: trust, love, genuine concern for the other person's welfare, or the converse distrust, suspicion,angst,concern for your own welfare etc.

I fully concur with PB though ... dating is about eliminating poor matches ... ortherwise it would be called marraige (and even those end)

[Buki]

I had to endure two months being away but he will be arriving on Monday, next week to be with me.

Didn't expect any more postings from Buki for at least a couple weeks! But a search of his postings shows he's keeping life balanced. Hope the reunion was everything you hoped for and more!

The reunion seemed to the best thing that happened for me here in Bangkok. My better half is now here and I am happier that he is staying. I am now touring him around the city and he is enjoying BKK very much and so am I.

[Ijustwannateach]

Congrats, Buki! glad to hear your other half has arrived- you certainly seemed to be missing him.

"Steven"

[Guest endure]

Does being with this guy engender good feelings or not? ie: trust, love, genuine concern for the other person's welfare, or the converse distrust, suspicion,angst,concern for your own welfare etc.

Now that I can wholeheartedly agree with.

[dukkha]

Middle class snobbery,my my... Dukkha

Healthy in my establishing this thread what to mean, two peopel who show mutual respect and compassion for one another and who are lovers, in the case I intended...if that aint clear I did my best..

PB...please quote me where I said..."Intellectual equality was a ..sine qua non in any relationship, I daily live a relationship where intellecual equality does not exist but there is more love there ...than any novel of I have read of late .......Dukkah

[Guest endure]

Middle class snobbery,my my... Dukkha

Healthy in my establishing this thread what to mean, two peopel who show mutual respect and compassion for one another and who are lovers, in the case I intended...if that aint clear I did my best..

My apologies. I missed that particular post of yours and I agree with it fully.

[PeaceBlondie]

On this forum, on this thread, and generally everywhere else, Dukkha and I agree about almost everything. Except Thai food.

When Endure posted recently saying that from the beginning of this thread (by Dukka), Endure assumed that 'healthy relationship' included near parity in educational achievement, I seriously disagreed. It was not personal, but I thought Endure was bringing up a new angle. I knew that Dukkha did not consider education important in a relationship. But he's very well educated, so I let Dukkha answer for himself.

If you start a thread, debate or discussion thinking that terms must be formally agreed upon before the discussion begins, you'll take a year. I'm glad that this thread, and many others, start without defining all the terms. Gives us more to discuss without disagreeing!

Shall we continue discussing the topic?

[jdinasia]

I actually think that education is a great thing to look for in a guy worth dating.

The likelihood of having more in common increases with education and family status etc.

I wouldn't rule out dating a guy with little or no formal education but I think the success levels of relationships do increase as you increase things in common.

[Guest endure]

When Endure posted recently saying that from the beginning of this thread (by Dukka), Endure assumed that 'healthy relationship' included near parity in educational achievement, I seriously disagreed. It was not personal, but I thought Endure was bringing up a new angle.

Not quite. It's not what I assumed but what I assumed that everyone else was assuming if you see what I mean. I was looking for a definition of what others thought to be a healthy relationship. I missed dukkha's post which I have since read and with which I agree.

[dukkha]

Endure thanks for your continued support on this thread which I think is providing the sort of forum that I initially began..PB....our misunderstanding is resolved if not to be too glib...great to read of such inersting discourse and thank all of you who continue to be activivatly invoved. Ilike what I read and hope that otherws will be willing and free to say what may be on their minds and hearts....sabii sabaii na krup

Dukkha

[jdinasia]

I thought for my 200Th post since joining ThaiVisain 2003 should be on my usual vein of Think about the other side of things before you post!

My friends that date Farangs (yes mostly I am tighter with the Thai guys than I am with their western partners) have an amazing take on dating westerners.

They hope to meet nice guys that say what they mean and do what they say. However, they say that by experience that temptation is often just too much for the weaknesses that westerners have. They seem to understand that chubby older guys moving here from the USA or wherever may not have really had any kind of physical or emotional intimacy at home for several years ... <or many years>

Two of my friends (one's a DDS and the other is a Lawyer and a professor) will not date farang guys until they have been here at least 2 years. They think it is too risky. I get it! I really do. With all the options available to us as westerners just walking down the street .. or at Silom ... (not to mention Suriwong or Pattaya or ....) And these are the EDUCATED guys ... can't imagine what your average Thai guy thinks ... well actually I can ... but it is way too inflammatory ... and yet they keep trying!

Remember guys ... if you want a healthy relationship ... you gotta kinda be healthy to start! I am not advocating being niave or stupid. Quite the opposite in fact!

It is my sincere hope that people here learn to be respectful of the people in their lives and use that respect as a basis to form meaningful friendships and relationships!

[Guest endure]

Two of my friends (one's a DDS and the other is a Lawyer and a professor) will not date farang guys until they have been here at least 2 years. They think it is too risky. I get it! I really do. With all the options available to us as westerners just walking down the street .. or at Silom ... (not to mention Suriwong or Pattaya or ....) And these are the EDUCATED guys ... can't imagine what your average Thai guy thinks ... well actually I can ... but it is way too inflammatory ... and yet they keep trying!

I do too. For a lot of Farang Thailand is like all their birthdays rolled into one. Some get over it and go looking for 'the one', some don't. If I were Thai I'd be very wary indeed.