2013 Ninja 300 (For U.S. Market)

[dave_boo]

Hmmm...there's quite a few changes. Longer throw crank, shorter connecting rods, pistons with smaller skirts and flatter heads, a redesigned head, new sleeveless aluminium cylinders, new crankcase, new engine mounts, dual throttle valves, bigger headers/redesigned exhaust, a form of a slipper clutch (back torque limiter), apparently a new frame, revised rates on both ends, overall slightly less length, slightly more wheelbase, and more rake and trail.

Any hopes of easily (and cheaply) upgrading the 250 seems to be dashed.

[karlos]

Nice to see some competition at last, let's see what Honda comes back with next year or the year after. Seems than entry - mid weight bikes are really starting to take off here now

[dave_boo]

Nice to see some competition at last, let's see what Honda comes back with next year or the year after. Seems than entry - mid weight bikes are really starting to take off here now

I can't see the Honda getting update for at least two years. This update to the Ninja is 5 years on, and after some 2 years of Honda making major inroads into Kawasaki's bread and butter. If this bike regains the lost marketshare than Honda will redo the CBR much quicker; otherwise, irrespective of anyone's thoughts on the better bike, Honda will keep raking in the money on what they are currently selling.

I'd be more interested in a 500cc bike, sold in LOS, than worrying about a 20% upgrade to a currently available bike. If power was at ~45 RWHP and price was kept sane, like slotted exactly between the 250 and 650 classes (225K) I could see it as a really good stepping stone for us not so good riders.

[skybluestu]

Hasn't there been reports of a CBR 400?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

[karlos]

Rumors of a CBR400, yes.

But nothing official or half way convincing as of yet...

[BigBikeBKK]

Hasn't there been reports of a CBR 400?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

No, no reports, only vague rumors and of course the classic "my dealer told me" nonsense

IF Honda produces a CB'r' 400 in Thailand no doubt it'll be another overweight underpowered thumper, or maybe, just maybe a twin.

If you want a real CBR400 you'll have to try and find one of these bad boys-

[JonnyF]

Nice to see some competition at last, let's see what Honda comes back with next year or the year after. Seems than entry - mid weight bikes are really starting to take off here now

I can't see the Honda getting update for at least two years. This update to the Ninja is 5 years on, and after some 2 years of Honda making major inroads into Kawasaki's bread and butter. If this bike regains the lost marketshare than Honda will redo the CBR much quicker; otherwise, irrespective of anyone's thoughts on the better bike, Honda will keep raking in the money on what they are currently selling.

I'd be more interested in a 500cc bike, sold in LOS, than worrying about a 20% upgrade to a currently available bike. If power was at ~45 RWHP and price was kept sane, like slotted exactly between the 250 and 650 classes (225K) I could see it as a really good stepping stone for us not so good riders.

I agree. It's not a big enough increase. I'd rather see an increase in the number of cylinders than cc anyway. I'd take a 250cc 4 pot over a 400cc 2 pot (or even worse a single), same as I'd prefer a 400cc 4 pot over the er6 variants or even the Monster 795. Don't really see a Thai built bike with 4 cylinders though so it's going to be another import for me I'm afraid.

[dave_boo]

Nice to see some competition at last, let's see what Honda comes back with next year or the year after. Seems than entry - mid weight bikes are really starting to take off here now

I can't see the Honda getting update for at least two years. This update to the Ninja is 5 years on, and after some 2 years of Honda making major inroads into Kawasaki's bread and butter. If this bike regains the lost marketshare than Honda will redo the CBR much quicker; otherwise, irrespective of anyone's thoughts on the better bike, Honda will keep raking in the money on what they are currently selling.

I'd be more interested in a 500cc bike, sold in LOS, than worrying about a 20% upgrade to a currently available bike. If power was at ~45 RWHP and price was kept sane, like slotted exactly between the 250 and 650 classes (225K) I could see it as a really good stepping stone for us not so good riders.

I agree. It's not a big enough increase. I'd rather see an increase in the number of cylinders than cc anyway. I'd take a 250cc 4 pot over a 400cc 2 pot (or even worse a single), same as I'd prefer a 400cc 4 pot over the er6 variants or even the Monster 795. Don't really see a Thai built bike with 4 cylinders though so it's going to be another import for me I'm afraid.

Unfortunately our tastes diverge quite a lot here; I remain a torque fan. A sporty V-twin (or maybe even better V-4) would get me much more excited than a high revving inline 4.

The biggest problem is that this 300 is creeping up into the ER-6* weight range and has only ~¹/₂ the power. A 500 at 45 RWHP would neatly split the difference that Kawasaki has between their 250 and 650 Ninjas powerwise and probably be even more bulletproof due to having fewer HP/cc than its siblings...

[KRS1]

I wonder how thick the cylinder walls are, I bet the new Ninja 300 could be easily bored out to 350cc.

The compression went down from 11.6 to 10.6 also.

[dave_boo]

I wonder how thick the cylinder walls are, I bet the new Ninja 300 could be easily bored out to 350cc.

The compression went down from 11.6 to 10.6 also.

Good catch about the compression ratio. I don't know how easily the 300 could be bored out; but I'd be leery of it due to lack of sleeves. Good chance there's a propeitary coating in there that you'll never get back and finding sleeves may be an issue.

[KRS1]

Id like to know whether the valve sizes have changed and whether the intake ports have been reworked, enlarged airbox??? Velocity stacks inside etc...

Going from 41.2mm to 49mm stroke is crazy, thats a huge jump. Even going up a full 4mm in throttle body diameter is pretty sick. I think there's going to be a really significant increase in performance.

[BirdsandBooze]

I hope Kawasaki don't disappoint us by making the 300 unavailable and leaving us with the 250. They need to be sensible with the pricing and keep a good differential with the 650 ER family if it goes on sale here.

Edited September 6, 2012 by BirdsandBooze

[siampreggers]

Hopefully their over pricing of the Ninja 250 won't be crossed over to the N300 should it be released here.

The word from Indonesia is that the 2013 N250 is poorly made and much worse build quality than the 08-12 N250. And that is how they can keep the pricing in line with the previous model there.

Thai and Japan Kawa sites are still showing the 08-12 N250. Perhaps it might change after 9th Sept. when the N300 is announced in the states.

[KRS1]

The Indo guy that made the youtube comparison was saying the plastic materials were thinner than the previous model, actually he was going by sound and tapping it. He didnt measure anything.

It wouldn't sway me away from buying one.

[siampreggers]

that's a different report than I was on about.

One guy with an 08-12 said he went to the dealership to buy the 2013 having seen the pictures. He left without buying after the checking the bike over...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/574558-2013-kawasaki-ninjette-250-breaks-cover/page__st__100#entry5635372

Edited September 6, 2012 by siampreggers

[siampreggers]

Price from Australian dealer - A$7,500... 240k thb...

I think the the N250 was the same price originally, but then they had to take A$1500 off it's price in order to compete with the Honda CBR250R.

So the 2012 N250 was selling for about A$6000... or 190k thb.

Edited September 6, 2012 by siampreggers

[mania]

I could see it as a really good stepping stone for us not so good riders.

Yes but also you may be surprised at how many "good" riders

like a smaller displacement hyper bike. It is a different kind of riding

that can be very exciting.

[dave_boo]

Crikey, the Ninja 250 is insanely priced there...a full 22% more than the Thai one. Looking over the rest of the prices, it seems that all of them are some 20+% more than the Thai price. Assuming an Australian pricing of a 300cc version being +25% greater than a mythical N300 Thai version, you're looking at supposed in Thailand price of ~192K THB.

Guessing the bike has +20% more HP (actually Kawi states that it has a BHP of 39 which is 18% more...but even the carb'd N250s were putting down only 26 of the 33 rated HP) you're looking at a 30 RWHP bike that weighs nearly the same as the bigger bike but puts out less than 1/2 the horsepower and costs 78% as much. Or put another way, it weighs more, puts out ~1/5 more horsepower and costs 22% more than the bike it replaces. While the increase of ~20% HP for ~20% more THB seems good, you're still looking at without rider so the power to weight ratio won't change that much (a 100 kg rider will have a 10.4 kg/hp on the N250 and a 9.1 kg/hp on the N300).

As such I can't see both bikes residing concurrently in a market, or even the 300 to be a logical 'next' bike. I do think it's a great replacement for the N250 however as it addresses several issues that Kawasaki conceded to the competitor; lower RPM performance, perception of design (the carb'd versions and the slab of a dashboard), and even fuel economy as the aforementioned pdf file makes specific reference to economy gauge that the 650 bikes have had.

Edited September 6, 2012 by dave_boo

[JonnyF]

Crikey, the Ninja 250 is insanely priced there...a full 22% more than the Thai one. Looking over the rest of the prices, it seems that all of them are some 20+% more than the Thai price. Assuming an Australian pricing of a 300cc version being +25% greater than a mythical N300 Thai version, you're looking at supposed in Thailand price of ~192K THB.

Guessing the bike has +20% more HP (actually Kawi states that it has a BHP of 39 which is 18% more...but even the carb'd N250s were putting down only 26 of the 33 rated HP) you're looking at a 30 RWHP bike that weighs nearly the same as the bigger bike but puts out less than 1/2 the horsepower and costs 78% as much. Or put another way, it weighs more, puts out ~1/5 more horsepower and costs 22% more than the bike it replaces. While the increase of ~20% HP for ~20% more THB seems good, you're still looking at without rider so the power to weight ratio won't change that much (a 100 kg rider will have a 10.4 kg/hp on the N250 and a 9.1 kg/hp on the N300).

As such I can't see both bikes residing concurrently in a market, or even the 300 to be a logical 'next' bike. I do think it's a great replacement for the N250 however as it addresses several issues that Kawasaki conceded to the competitor; lower RPM performance, perception of design (the carb'd versions and the slab of a dashboard), and even fuel economy as the aforementioned pdf file makes specific reference to economy gauge that the 650 bikes have had.

You're right about the pricing Dave, as I've said before the price of the Ninja 250 in Thailand isn't really high compared to pricing elsewhere in the world (cheaper than the UK and Australia, a bit more than the US where bikes are incredibly cheap), but Honda probably underpriced the CBR250 here which makes the Ninja relatively more expensive in Thailand. They seem to have corrected this pricing slightly with the CRF250L, still a bit cheaper than the competitor (KLX) but not massively so. It certainly makes the CBR good value, if you like small bore singles.

I'd also agree that a Ninja 300 at the 190k mark wouldn't make a lot of sense with a er6n available at 260ish, or quite a bit less than 190k second hand (for the older model). At 170k it would be interesting though.

[KRS1]

The 2012 Ninja 250 in the US /California goes for $5250 out the door, the CBR 250 is usually $200 less.

After dealing with dealers here in the US, buying a bike in Thailand is a much less stressful experience. The dealers in the US try to rape you anyway possible.

The bike starts out at $4299 and ends up at $5250...go figure. In Thailand the CBR 250 is substantially cheaper, usually ends up at around $5000 (150,000 baht) in the US.

Edited September 7, 2012 by KRS1

[JonnyF]

The 2012 Ninja 250 in the US /California goes for $5250 out the door, the CBR 250 is usually $200 less.

After dealing with dealers here in the US, buying a bike in Thailand is a much less stressful experience. The dealers in the US try to rape you anyway possible.

The bike starts out at $4299 and ends up at $5250...go figure. In Thailand the CBR 250 is substantially cheaper, usually ends up at around $5000 (150,000 baht) in the US.

Yep, so 5250 is 157000 baht. In the UK it's 4200 pounds which is about 205,000 baht and according to Dave it's 22% more expensive in Australia than here in Thailand as well. So like I said, the Ninja isn't really expensive here, it's just the CBR250 is extremely cheap here. Then again, you're dealing with AP Honda's dealer price gouging and after sales 'support' (e.g. forgetting to put the oil back in after an oil change and then refusing to accept responsibility) so maybe the price reflects this.

[siampreggers]

(e.g. forgetting to put the oil back in after an oil change and then refusing to accept responsibility)

You're not making up little porkies, are you?

just reading back now there seems to have one guy who had his bike bought back off him due to such an instance. I hope you're not publicly libeling a company with untruths to further your own agenda.

Great service from Honda, just because one employee forgot to do something in some out of the way dealer.

Kinda unlike the guy who went to Kawa last week to get them to adjust something, and they couldn't even be bothered.

But then you're dealing with a company that forbid their dealers from offering favourable pricing to aid competition and result in cheaper prices for the customers.

Edited September 7, 2012 by siampreggers

[JonnyF]

(e.g. forgetting to put the oil back in after an oil change and then refusing to accept responsibility)

You're not making up little porkies, are you?

just reading back now there seems to have one guy who had his bike bought back off him due to such an instance. I hope you're not publicly libeling a company with untruths to further your own agenda.

Great service from Honda, just because one employee forgot to do something in some out of the way dealer.

Kinda unlike the guy who went to Kawa last week to get them to adjust something, and they couldn't even be bothered.

But then you're dealing with a company that forbid their dealers from offering favourable pricing to aid competition and result in cheaper prices for the customers.

Porkies? Unfortunately not. I'm just giving an example of a forum member who went for an oil change and they drained the oil and forgot to put the new oil in. He drove the bike away and it seized. You think he's lieing? Countless other examples on here of dealers asking way over rrp as well. Sorry if that upsets you, but it happens to be the truth.

[BigBikeBKK]

I think it's great that Honda's weak offering in the 250cc "sport bike" class has pushed Kawasaki to improve on their already class-leading Ninja 250R.

Honda put themselves at a real disadvantage by choosing to go with a thumper platform to lower cost. It's not like they can just add a cylinder to try and keep up Kawasaki...

Piece of cake for Kawasaki to tweak their venerable old bullet proof twin to remain the undisputed 250cc class leader.

It's clear that in the 250cc road bike class Honda wants to compete on the basis of price, not performance.

Nothing wrong with that. If you want a cheap, uninspired (imo), fuel efficient 250 buy the Honda.

If you want a bike with more power, better handling and cutting edge looks buy the new Ninjette 250.

And if you have to settle for the CB'r' because you can't afford the Ninjette, well, you have my sympathy

Edited September 7, 2012 by BigBikeBKK

[siampreggers]

(e.g. forgetting to put the oil back in after an oil change and then refusing to accept responsibility)

You're not making up little porkies, are you?

just reading back now there seems to have one guy who had his bike bought back off him due to such an instance. I hope you're not publicly libeling a company with untruths to further your own agenda.

Great service from Honda, just because one employee forgot to do something in some out of the way dealer.

Kinda unlike the guy who went to Kawa last week to get them to adjust something, and they couldn't even be bothered.

But then you're dealing with a company that forbid their dealers from offering favourable pricing to aid competition and result in cheaper prices for the customers.

Porkies? Unfortunately not. I'm just giving an example of a forum member who went for an oil change and they drained the oil and forgot to put the new oil in. He drove the bike away and it seized. You think he's lieing?

I thought you said:

forgetting to put the oil back in after an oil change and then refusing to accept responsibility

Just reading back they bought the bike back from him.

Edited September 7, 2012 by siampreggers

[JonnyF]

Not sure if it was this one from Hili...

"<deleted> had a proper look at the oil window and oil is even less than the lower bar. done around 700 km so far hope no damage done. What kind of mechanics argh but i should blame myself for not checking before. What u ppl think it can be serious? Also when i started the bike up today some smoke and typical smell came out the exhaust and when i opened the oil cap of the motor there was smoke coming out too....... i am worried..."

or this one from drift...

"I took my 250 in for it's first oil change and the "mechanic" drained the oil by taking out the T50 torx bolt instead of using the oil drain bolt. The torx bolt on the right side of the engine a bit behind the oil filtre over top of the exhaust pipe. Any one have an idea what the real purpose of that bolt is?

Thanks"

or this one from Snowflake?

"For the clunking thing people are talking about... Make sure that the mechanics when they change oil that they put enough back inn...

My guy almost forgot that I needed 2 bottles instead of the normal 1... that could be something... "

And this is for an oil change...good luck getting something complicated done.

PS I assume they bought the bike back at the original purchase price, plus a free hire bike while it was off the road and a nice sum for the inconvenience of the whole episode. That's what I would call taking responsibility. Personally I'd prefer they just put the oil in.

Edited September 7, 2012 by JonnyF

[wantan]

Wasn't it Karlos who asked at his Kwacker dealer to adjust the chain properly and they refused to do it? And wasn't there only a few days ago a member with a Versys who wonders what to do now because his bike needs valve adjustment. He don't trust Kawasaki service doing such a job. Just to name a few

The better service of Kawasaki seems to be a fairy tale.

[siampreggers]

I think we can all agree that Thai mechanics are not at a level we're used to, expect or are really happy with. I've heard major complaints about Kawa services in dealerships around the country... Just look at the thread about Barcelona BMW in Chiang Mai on the gt rider site!

I doubt any company can take the highground about their level of service in this country.

Personally, I take my Honda to a Honda dealership that has Western management. There's no language barrier, misunderstandings, Thai attitude or cultural delicacies that need to be broached gently.

Edited September 7, 2012 by siampreggers

[karlos]

Wasn't it Karlos who asked at his Kwacker dealer to adjust the chain properly and they refused to do it? And wasn't there only a few days ago a member with a Versys who wonders what to do now because his bike needs valve adjustment. He don't trust Kawasaki service doing such a job. Just to name a few

The better service of Kawasaki seems to be a fairy tale.

There are bad eggs in most nests, Honda and Kawasaki both!

It seems (Kawasaki at least) Have a a couple of highly trained mechanics in each dealership who have studied abroad. This is all well and good but the weak link seems to be the apprentice mechanics who work unsupervised on your bike and/or make decisions based on their limited knowledge (My chain for example) I guess the lesson learnt is to seek out the head mechanic at a Kawasaki dealership (Not to sure about the competence of a Honda head mechanic, given that there's close to 1000 Franchises) or just D.I.Y

Edited September 7, 2012 by karlos

[siampreggers]

Price from Australian dealer - A$7,500... 240k thb...

I think the the N250 was the same price originally, but then they had to take A$1500 off it's price in order to compete with the Honda CBR250R.

So the 2012 N250 was selling for about A$6000... or 190k thb.

Perhaps not.

"Just got off the phone with Sydney City Motorcycles,

and the prices they quoted me are as follows:

Base model: AU$6199(incl. ORC) (Black or white here in OZ)

ABS: +AU$500

Special Edition (Green Fairings): also +AU$500

For a comparison, the Honda CBR 250R is quoted at AU$6500 (incl. ORC) by the same dealership."