Only Rubber Bullets Used On Fatal Day: Thai Army Marksmen

[Moruya]

Well not often the red shirts are attributed with the good sense and judgement to halt the protest when a suitable offer is made

There you have it folks, red shirts intelligent negotiators respecting human life and their supporters safety

You heard it here first....

Can you please use some punctuation and syntax so I may stand a chance of translating your reply into English?

[473geo]

Well not often the red shirts are attributed with the good sense and judgement to halt the protest when a suitable offer is made

There you have it folks, red shirts intelligent negotiators respecting human life and their supporters safety

You heard it here first....

Can you please use some punctuation and syntax so I may stand a chance of translating your reply into English?

It would go over your head anyway...don't fret......

[473geo]

assinated? He was shot in the head, not the ass. Confusion understandable, hard to tell the difference.

Typo Mick, I just saw the photos of the unarmed 'black shirts' lined up between the police and the protestors, you see them Mick? didn't look like Russian mercenaries who communicate by sign language to me......I guess we all make errors, just some a little more laughable than others eh!

47, you are a strange little number. If we are referring to the same picture it is an undated picture of black-shirted red guards between police and protesters. I don't know when it was taken, and all that can be observed from it is that those persons were unarmed at that time. That those people are the same black clad persons carrying weapons in the red camp is unproven (and not even claimed by me) but that there were armed men in the red camp is proven by many witnesses, but not one who claims to be a red shirt - who are apparently blind to murder carried out in their midst.

Mick were the black shirts in the photo unarmed or not? Yes!!

What is the rest of your rambling to do with my post?

[toybits]

Anyone care to know how fast an M16 or M4 bullet travels?

M16

Muzzle Velocity- 3250 fps

Maximum Range- 2653 m (2901 yds)

Max Effective Range- 460 m (503 yds)

M16A2

Muzzle Velocity- 3100 fps

Maximum Range- 3600 m (3938 yds)

Max Effective Range Point Targets- 550 m (602 yds)

Max Effective Range Area Targets- 800 m (875 yds)

M4

Maximum Range- 3600 m (3938 yds)

Max Effective Range Point Targets- 500 m (550 yds)

Max Effective Range Area Targets- 600 m (660 yds)

Now imagine a "rubber" bullet that is .223 cal. hitting you at 3200+ feet per second. That is waaaay faster that a bb gun or airsoft gun (normally 300 fps)

[phiphidon]

During the questioning from 10.30am to 5pm, the two men took several breaks to visit the toilet and to smoke.

why is this tidbit significant enough to make it into the article?

To show how nervous they were?

Nice idea but entirely impractical.

It's not unusual to be nervous in court. Everyone goes to toilet and even if they went a lot you'd have to know if this was more frequent than normal. The same goes for smoking, plus the fact that nicotine is an addictive drug so not smoking would make them more edgy.

It was probably the only place they could burst out laughing without being seen, having thought again about what they had just told the inquest about firing rubber bullets was the truth..................................

[Moruya]

Well not often the red shirts are attributed with the good sense and judgement to halt the protest when a suitable offer is made

There you have it folks, red shirts intelligent negotiators respecting human life and their supporters safety

You heard it here first....

Can you please use some punctuation and syntax so I may stand a chance of translating your reply into English?

It would go over your head anyway...don't fret......

The only think that could possibly make me fret would be missing out on something intelligent and I have zero concern there.

[Moruya]

Anyone care to know how fast an M16 or M4 bullet travels?

M16

Muzzle Velocity- 3250 fps

Maximum Range- 2653 m (2901 yds)

Max Effective Range- 460 m (503 yds)

M16A2

Muzzle Velocity- 3100 fps

Maximum Range- 3600 m (3938 yds)

Max Effective Range Point Targets- 550 m (602 yds)

Max Effective Range Area Targets- 800 m (875 yds)

M4

Maximum Range- 3600 m (3938 yds)

Max Effective Range Point Targets- 500 m (550 yds)

Max Effective Range Area Targets- 600 m (660 yds)

Now imagine a "rubber" bullet that is .223 cal. hitting you at 3200+ feet per second. That is waaaay faster that a bb gun or airsoft gun (normally 300 fps)

Faster than a red shirt neuron

[GentlemanJim]

Anyone care to know how fast an M16 or M4 bullet travels?

M16

Muzzle Velocity- 3250 fps

Maximum Range- 2653 m (2901 yds)

Max Effective Range- 460 m (503 yds)

M16A2

Muzzle Velocity- 3100 fps

Maximum Range- 3600 m (3938 yds)

Max Effective Range Point Targets- 550 m (602 yds)

Max Effective Range Area Targets- 800 m (875 yds)

M4

Maximum Range- 3600 m (3938 yds)

Max Effective Range Point Targets- 500 m (550 yds)

Max Effective Range Area Targets- 600 m (660 yds)

Now imagine a "rubber" bullet that is .223 cal. hitting you at 3200+ feet per second. That is waaaay faster that a bb gun or airsoft gun (normally 300 fps)

How unfortunate that after doing some research, you just couldn't be bothered to go the extra mile and then research how the rubber bullet is fired and what the velocity of the round is

[473geo]

Well not often the red shirts are attributed with the good sense and judgement to halt the protest when a suitable offer is made

There you have it folks, red shirts intelligent negotiators respecting human life and their supporters safety

You heard it here first....

Can you please use some punctuation and syntax so I may stand a chance of translating your reply into English?

It would go over your head anyway...don't fret......

The only think that could possibly make me fret would be missing out on something intelligent and I have zero concern there.

Really then why ask for further clarification? (as above)

[Moruya]

Really then why ask for further clarification? (as above)

Asking for clarification and allowing for something to cause me to fret are vastly different things

[473geo]

Really then why ask for further clarification? (as above)

Asking for clarification and allowing for something to cause me to fret are vastly different things

Good discussion closed thanks

Edited September 1, 2012 by 473geo

[binjalin]

The retarded apologist argument of the man (safely) faraway, that eyewitnesses who lived through these events are somehow struck braindead, have no access to the media, and somehow lost their critical faculties by being present. Total BS. You embarrass yourself by even trying that lame old spin once again. Boring, transparent, and dishonest.

wow we really like you

[Moruya]

Really then why ask for further clarification? (as above)

Asking for clarification and allowing for something to cause me to fret are vastly different things

Good discussion closed thanks

I miss the sound of the gai baan in the morning. The dogs barking. The motor cycles firing up to take people to work or to the market, the 2 strokes putt putting their way to work. Isaan music plays from several locations. Time to wake up.

I then read TV and all the synthetics trying to portray themselves as Nouveau Socialists without ever having seen corn growing in an Isaan field.

It's the same feeling I get walking past the pig fields - worse than bullshit

[tlansford]

begin removed ...

Now we are going way of topic....with your experience of the protest perhaps in your newly occupied 'expert' position created by reasonableman you can tell me what you saw regarding the assasination of Seh Daeng.......as I was not there Rubl.....

I saw it, with my very own eyes! Somewhat later that is, on television or maybe a clip. If you really like to know read this transscript from

"New York Times correspondent Thomas Fuller was interviewing Gen. Khattiya Sawasdiphol, known as "Seh Daeng," when he was shot in the head."

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=126805541

Thanks Rubl interesting article don't you think, two days before the 'fateful day' mentined in the OP a renegade general was assinated inside the barricades, and not one mention of it being a rubber bullet!!

Most likely killed by his own 'side' to silence him, don't you think.

no. That would hardly seem like a reasonable conclusion to draw.

[tlansford]

Most likely killed by his own 'side' to silence him, don't you think.

I can see why some would come to that conclusion

It ranks alongside 'suicide' as an explanation

Good one! So tell us who shot the general in your not so humble opinion. Who gave the order and more important .. why?

He's the main strategist that could cause absolute mayhem and untold pain for the RTA when they finally move in

He is the cohesive element and director of the 'guards' protecting the civilians

He is a renegade general who can do what he wants because he cannot face charges

He is an major embarrassment to the RTA

The person who shot him was briefed to call radio when he got a clear shot, the decision to remove him was probably taken well in advance of the actual shot

Historicaly renegade generals tend to be dealt with internally

I have no idea, maybe you are correct

"who" is a sidetracking question - and IMO that person will probably never be held responsible ... whoever it was, ... if we ever learn.

"why" is not so hard to guess at - look at the timeline. General is shot and the offensive to clear out the UDD begins immediately. I would say that your first & second points apply pretty well regarding strategy. The other items make for good bonus points.

[Thaddeus]

"who" is a sidetracking question - and IMO that person will probably never be held responsible ... whoever it was, ... if we ever learn.

"why" is not so hard to guess at - look at the timeline. General is shot and the offensive to clear out the UDD begins immediately. I would say that your first & second points apply pretty well regarding strategy. The other items make for good bonus points.

Tom, you sound a little bit pissed off that there may be someone out there better at sidestepping questions than you.

[phiphidon]

Good one! So tell us who shot the general in your not so humble opinion. Who gave the order and more important .. why?

He's the main strategist that could cause absolute mayhem and untold pain for the RTA when they finally move in

He is the cohesive element and director of the 'guards' protecting the civilians

He is a renegade general who can do what he wants because he cannot face charges

He is an major embarrassment to the RTA

The person who shot him was briefed to call radio when he got a clear shot, the decision to remove him was probably taken well in advance of the actual shot

Historicaly renegade generals tend to be dealt with internally

I have no idea, maybe you are correct

"who" is a sidetracking question - and IMO that person will probably never be held responsible ... whoever it was, ... if we ever learn.

"why" is not so hard to guess at - look at the timeline. General is shot and the offensive to clear out the UDD begins immediately. I would say that your first & second points apply pretty well regarding strategy. The other items make for good bonus points.

As shown in the article:

Lessons from Operation Encirclement at Ratchaprasong during 14-19 May 2010

Wed, 06/07/2011 - 12:21 | by prachatai The article was first printed in Senathipat (Vol. 59, No. 3, September-December 2010), an academic journal published by the Centre of Doctrine and Strategic Development, Army Training Command, and written by an army officer under the pen name Chief Khuang, a Chulachomklao Royal Military Academy Cadet Class 32 (Infantry Regiment). This article is said to be part of the “Guideline Document for Military Operations: A Case Study of Conflict Resolution in an Urban Area” as an attempt to redesign the Army’s role in dealing with a new form of conflict in urban areas.

12. One strategic fallacy of the UDD which was taken advantage of by the government was the withdrawal of the UDD Chairperson, Mr. Vira Musikapong, and the death of Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol, aka “Seh Daeng”, a military expert in charge of the training and deployment of UDD guards. It signalled a strategic loss. The UDD was left without any leadership on political strategy and without any military expert well-versed in military tactics when they were about to be dispersed by the military.

[stefb1964]

a suggestion :

instead of rubber bullets why not using paintball-bullets.. ?

[Jawnie]

Any final report should complete discount this testimony even to the point of calling the these Army personnel liars. It is clear they are lying even if it can't be proven. But, the investigators don't need to believe it and don't need to accept it or consider their testimony credible.

[AleG]

As shown in the article:

Lessons from Operation Encirclement at Ratchaprasong during 14-19 May 2010

Wed, 06/07/2011 - 12:21 | by prachatai The article was first printed in Senathipat (Vol. 59, No. 3, September-December 2010), an academic journal published by the Centre of Doctrine and Strategic Development, Army Training Command, and written by an army officer under the pen name Chief Khuang, a Chulachomklao Royal Military Academy Cadet Class 32 (Infantry Regiment). This article is said to be part of the “Guideline Document for Military Operations: A Case Study of Conflict Resolution in an Urban Area” as an attempt to redesign the Army’s role in dealing with a new form of conflict in urban areas.

12. One strategic fallacy of the UDD which was taken advantage of by the government was the withdrawal of the UDD Chairperson, Mr. Vira Musikapong, and the death of Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol, aka “Seh Daeng”, a military expert in charge of the training and deployment of UDD guards. It signalled a strategic loss. The UDD was left without any leadership on political strategy and without any military expert well-versed in military tactics when they were about to be dispersed by the military.

Why do unarmed "Peaceful Protesters" need a "military expert well-versed in military tactics" to train and deploy their guards?

[Newguy70]

fire hosee, loud music, stop people from entering the area and coming and going as they did. A number of things they could have done, however they opted for a choice that most of us feel was over the top.

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

[AleG]

fire hosee, loud music, stop people from entering the area and coming and going as they did. A number of things they could have done, however they opted for a choice that most of us feel was over the top.

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

This pops up frequently, that the government didn't attempt other methods of crowd control. They did, for weeks.

To get an idea of the usual result check photo #14 to see what the "peaceful protesters" thought of water canons.

That was at ThaiCom, I remember another water canon literally torn to pieces at Lumpini, Red Shirts later used the nozzle to shoot rockets at the security forces.

Hardly the actions of a peaceful, non-violent group.

[tlansford]

- deleted -

He's the main strategist that could cause absolute mayhem and untold pain for the RTA when they finally move in

He is the cohesive element and director of the 'guards' protecting the civilians

He is a renegade general who can do what he wants because he cannot face charges

He is an major embarrassment to the RTA

The person who shot him was briefed to call radio when he got a clear shot, the decision to remove him was probably taken well in advance of the actual shot

Historicaly renegade generals tend to be dealt with internally

I have no idea, maybe you are correct

"who" is a sidetracking question - and IMO that person will probably never be held responsible ... whoever it was, ... if we ever learn.

"why" is not so hard to guess at - look at the timeline. General is shot and the offensive to clear out the UDD begins immediately. I would say that your first & second points apply pretty well regarding strategy. The other items make for good bonus points.

As shown in the article:

Lessons from Operation Encirclement at Ratchaprasong during 14-19 May 2010

Wed, 06/07/2011 - 12:21 | by prachatai The article was first printed in Senathipat (Vol. 59, No. 3, September-December 2010), an academic journal published by the Centre of Doctrine and Strategic Development, Army Training Command, and written by an army officer under the pen name Chief Khuang, a Chulachomklao Royal Military Academy Cadet Class 32 (Infantry Regiment). This article is said to be part of the “Guideline Document for Military Operations: A Case Study of Conflict Resolution in an Urban Area” as an attempt to redesign the Army’s role in dealing with a new form of conflict in urban areas.

12. One strategic fallacy of the UDD which was taken advantage of by the government was the withdrawal of the UDD Chairperson, Mr. Vira Musikapong, and the death of Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol, aka “Seh Daeng”, a military expert in charge of the training and deployment of UDD guards. It signalled a strategic loss. The UDD was left without any leadership on political strategy and without any military expert well-versed in military tactics when they were about to be dispersed by the military.

Thanks - googled it - looks like some more light reading : too bad I'm working this weekend

The timing seems just a bit obvious. Abhisit makes a lame attempt at concessions and the moment the early elections offer was refused, the general is shot and a 6 day offensive begins...

Unlike April 10th, it looked like they actually planned the operation in advance...

[KireB]

Thanks - googled it - looks like some more light reading : too bad I'm working this weekend

The timing seems just a bit obvious. Abhisit makes a lame attempt at concessions and the moment the early elections offer was refused, the general is shot and a 6 day offensive begins...

Unlike April 10th, it looked like they actually planned the operation in advance...

For a man who always refers to facts, you have downgraded yourself to guessing and dangerous assumptions. Seh Deang become a loose end for the reds, he tried to take over the leadership and was most likely shot to be silenced. Seh Deang was responsible for the red shirt guards and not necessarily for the black shirted terrorists supporting the reds.

Also, the lame excuse as you mentioned was shown live on national television and didn't seem lame to anyone but you.

C'mom you can come up with better arguments than this.

[Buchholz]

The timing seems just a bit obvious. Abhisit makes a lame attempt at concessions and the moment the early elections offer was refused, the general is shot and a 6 day offensive begins...

There were a number of events that occurred just before the general caught a bullet with his forehead that could explain why that happened.

A grab for organizational power is a frequent cause of many violent disputes.

No new team of red shirts leaders : Nuttawut

BANGKOK: -- A red shirt leader on Monday dismissed as groundless a claim by an outspoken general that ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra appointed new team of red shirts leaders.

Nuttawut Saikua said Major-Geneneral Kattiya Sawasdipol maybe misinformed or misunderstood that Thaksin was not happy with the existing red shirt leaders who Kattiya said were changing their position to a compromising one in their talks with Abhisit government.

"Seh Daeng's report is not correct. Maybe he is misinformed," Nuttawut said.

Kattiya claimed Monday that he talked to Thaksin on a phone on Sunday. "Thaksin said he would appoint of new team of the red shirts leaders."

The new team would exclude Veera Musikapong, Jatuporn Prompan, Dr Weng Tohjirakarn and Nuttawut Saikua as they appeared to agree with Abhisit's roadmap and prefer to end the rally.

The group had several secret meeting with Abhisit's team, Kattiya said.

Nuttawut told reporters that even Thaksin has no authority to change the leaders' team.

Each of the new team claimed by Seh Daeng has not yet been contacted about the matter, Nuttawut said.

Kattiya quoted Thaksin as saying that those who did not want to fight on should go home.

The new team comprises Arisamun Pongruengrong, Suporn Attawong, Kwanchai Praipana, Waipot Apornrat.

-- The Nation 2010-05-10

Edited September 3, 2012 by Buchholz

[SomTumTiger]

It was probably the only place they could burst out laughing without being seen, having thought again about what they had just told the inquest about firing rubber bullets was the truth..................................

Two years on, Phi et al are still having the same argument. Nothing has been solved, no one's opinion has been swayed. Congratulations on wasting a lot of your own time!

[Ricardo]

Any final report should complete discount this testimony even to the point of calling the these Army personnel liars. It is clear they are lying even if it can't be proven. But, the investigators don't need to believe it and don't need to accept it or consider their testimony credible.

Fair point, that anyone giving evidence may well shade it to suit their own personal agenda, which applies equally IMO to testimony by any of the Red-Leaders or Thaksin himself. Whenever that is eventually given to the investigators.

On the other hand, perhaps these marksmen are telling the truth, as they saw it, but they didn't see (and so can't give evidence on) the full picture of what happened ? Unless there is evidence which proves that "it is clear they are lying".

[phiphidon]

It was probably the only place they could burst out laughing without being seen, having thought again about what they had just told the inquest about firing rubber bullets was the truth..................................

Two years on, Phi et al are still having the same argument. Nothing has been solved, no one's opinion has been swayed. Congratulations on wasting a lot of your own time!

Sorry to dissapoint you but surely I am in the best position to determine whether my time has been wasted. I take it you must have spent some time out reading the threads and writing your post - do you regard that time as wasted?

[phiphidon]

As shown in the article:

Lessons from Operation Encirclement at Ratchaprasong during 14-19 May 2010

Wed, 06/07/2011 - 12:21 | by prachatai The article was first printed in Senathipat (Vol. 59, No. 3, September-December 2010), an academic journal published by the Centre of Doctrine and Strategic Development, Army Training Command, and written by an army officer under the pen name Chief Khuang, a Chulachomklao Royal Military Academy Cadet Class 32 (Infantry Regiment). This article is said to be part of the “Guideline Document for Military Operations: A Case Study of Conflict Resolution in an Urban Area” as an attempt to redesign the Army’s role in dealing with a new form of conflict in urban areas.

12. One strategic fallacy of the UDD which was taken advantage of by the government was the withdrawal of the UDD Chairperson, Mr. Vira Musikapong, and the death of Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol, aka “Seh Daeng”, a military expert in charge of the training and deployment of UDD guards. It signalled a strategic loss. The UDD was left without any leadership on political strategy and without any military expert well-versed in military tactics when they were about to be dispersed by the military.

Why do unarmed "Peaceful Protesters" need a "military expert well-versed in military tactics" to train and deploy their guards?

Ah, you had the answer all along - it's in the post. The military are about to crackdown on a crowd of peaceful protesters who are unarmed, using tried and trusted tactics (apart from the live fire zones and sniper aspect of it). Who you gonna call, Ghostbusters?

No, you rely on someone who was trained by that very same army who is a "military expert well-versed in military tactics" who would know what to expect. As they say, it ain't rocket science...................

[phiphidon]

The timing seems just a bit obvious. Abhisit makes a lame attempt at concessions and the moment the early elections offer was refused, the general is shot and a 6 day offensive begins...

There were a number of events that occurred just before the general caught a bullet with his forehead that could explain why that happened.

A grab for organizational power is a frequent cause of many violent disputes.

No new team of red shirts leaders : Nuttawut

BANGKOK: -- A red shirt leader on Monday dismissed as groundless a claim by an outspoken general that ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra appointed new team of red shirts leaders.

Nuttawut Saikua said Major-Geneneral Kattiya Sawasdipol maybe misinformed or misunderstood that Thaksin was not happy with the existing red shirt leaders who Kattiya said were changing their position to a compromising one in their talks with Abhisit government.

"Seh Daeng's report is not correct. Maybe he is misinformed," Nuttawut said.

Kattiya claimed Monday that he talked to Thaksin on a phone on Sunday. "Thaksin said he would appoint of new team of the red shirts leaders."

The new team would exclude Veera Musikapong, Jatuporn Prompan, Dr Weng Tohjirakarn and Nuttawut Saikua as they appeared to agree with Abhisit's roadmap and prefer to end the rally.

The group had several secret meeting with Abhisit's team, Kattiya said.

Nuttawut told reporters that even Thaksin has no authority to change the leaders' team.

Each of the new team claimed by Seh Daeng has not yet been contacted about the matter, Nuttawut said.

Kattiya quoted Thaksin as saying that those who did not want to fight on should go home.

The new team comprises Arisamun Pongruengrong, Suporn Attawong, Kwanchai Praipana, Waipot Apornrat.

-- The Nation 2010-05-10

"There were a number of events that occurred just before the general caught a bullet with his forehead that could explain why that happened"

It's a bit of a sad individual who would belittle peoples deaths with sentences like this. I don't care what you thought of him personally he was still a human being when he was shot and killed. Do you have the same mindset when referring to say a road traffic accident victim or a death occuring as a result of a drunken fight?

Anyway, back to your "quarrel" argument - it seems like Suthep had his own views on that accusing Jatuporn of being responsible for Sae Daengs death - from the safety of being in parliament of course, and we know how truthful Suthep is...............

Suthep also claimed that perhaps Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Seh Daeng was killed by a sniper under the orders of Jatuporn.

"Is it Jatuporn who is responsible for the killing" he said claiming he had heard reports that Khattiya had admitted to being in conflict with red-shirt leaders not long before he was shot.

http://www.nationmul...n-30151255.html

By the way have you been excepted from posting links these days?