We Are All Buddhist.

[nidieunimaitre]

It's a shame that many have a negative mental picture of Buddhism and miss out on a practice which has the potential at the very least to unlock ones negative conditioning, and lead to improvement at many levels.

Insufficient paramis to get the message....... like casting pearls before swine..... to be pitied.

So i am a swine?

[rockyysdt]

It's a shame that many have a negative mental picture of Buddhism and miss out on a practice which has the potential at the very least to unlock ones negative conditioning, and lead to improvement at many levels.

Insufficient paramis to get the message....... like casting pearls before swine..... to be pitied.

So i am a swine?

I have a different view to Fred.

I'd describe the situation as follows:

We all (myself included) memorise past experiences.

Perhaps a Darwinian evolutionary (natural selection) development, which assisted our survival.

We learn that a wild animal is dangerous.

When we next see one, our memory associates what we see with danger and we then automatically take appropriate action to escape.

We don't think through or investigate the situation, but act on our memory.

This is fine for some situations, but we fall into the trap of no longer thinking through future events based on their individual merit, but rather automatically respond based on our original conditioned belief.

If one observes negative behavior performed by Buddhists, then one can dismiss Buddhism through association (automatic conditioned response).

Rather than thinking through the merits of Buddhism through investigation (not on a forum) one can easily end up responding in an automatic way through conditioned belief even though it may be inappropriate for a given situation. We all do this.

Practice (concentration, awareness, and ethical conduct) can restore ones ability to observe what is actually happening and allow one to fully think through individual incoming stimuli.

Rather than forming a common conditioned response to all things Buddhist, one is more likely to able to anaylse and determine what is appropriate for each new experience/event.

The deeper the awareness/concentration is developed, the better is ones ability to discern what is actually happening and how to respond to it, rather than anchoring ones response on accumulated belief/conditioning.

Edited August 31, 2012 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

Some people close their eyes for reality, and become 'theoretical thinkers'.

Next thing you know, they defend communism / free market theory / apartheid / some religion / etc.

I guess it is a survival strategy?

[nidieunimaitre]

Of course i have no problem with buddhists that TRY to live up to buddhist standards, but fail.

That is only human.

But i do have a problem with buddhists (and communists, christians, free market defenders, etc) that behave exactly oppositely to their proclamed ideals.

Extreme materialism.

Ever more and bigger and more luxurious wats.

Buddhas footprints, viewable against payment.

Monks blessing cars.

Etc.

And yes, all that happens in christian countries too.

It proves that buddhism is just another religion, nothing more, nothing less.

And to come back to the OP: westerners becoming buddhist because of living in thailand?

1/ i do not believe it happens much

2/ if it happens, it does not mean anything, except: they are desperate to fill in the void in their lives

[rockyysdt]

Some people close their eyes for reality, and become 'theoretical thinkers'.

Next thing you know, they defend communism / free market theory / apartheid / some religion / etc.

I guess it is a survival strategy?

Yes, they lack awareness and respond to life based on their conditioning.

I remember a number of years ago I arrived at my friends place to watch the football.

He was reading his kids some bed time stories before putting them to bed.

I was shocked to hear him denegrate Asians to his six month old son in the context of one of the stories.

By reinforcing his beliefs/prejudices into his sons subconscious the damage will come out many years down the track.

The son will have a negative attitude towards Asians, but will have no recollection how he came to acquire such a prejudice.

Faced with future situations involving Asians, rather than evaluate the situation on its merits (stimuli - awareness - evalutation - considered response) his son will refer to his subconsciously implanted belief, and respond automatically (inappropriately).

[rockyysdt]

Of course i have no problem with buddhists that TRY to live up to buddhist standards, but fail.

That is only human.

But i do have a problem with buddhists (and communists, christians, free market defenders, etc) that behave exactly oppositely to their proclamed ideals.

Extreme materialism.

Ever more and bigger and more luxurious wats.

Buddhas footprints, viewable against payment.

Monks blessing cars.

Etc.

And yes, all that happens in christian countries too.

It proves that buddhism is just another religion, nothing more, nothing less.

And to come back to the OP: westerners becoming buddhist because of living in thailand?

1/ i do not believe it happens much

2/ if it happens, it does not mean anything, except: they are desperate to fill in the void in their lives

What you're highlighting is that the vast majority of peoples lives are governed by greed, aversion, a delusion.

Simply by placing a label on themselves doesn't change anything.

If one behaves in a deluded manner then one is only fooling oneself.

So I guess you don't have a problem with Buddhism, but rather those who proclaim to be Buddhist, but behave in an un Buddhist manner.

More importantly, if you measure Buddhism by the action of others, and from this decide Buddhism is worthless, then you might be short changing yourself.

Edited August 31, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

I do recognise however that many have changed their attitudes towards life and other people since coming to live here. I know that I certainly have.

Maybe we should have a poll on the question.

I don't have an answer, but I suspect Bagwan's observation is spot on, and probably many expats who've been here a while have found that their attitudes have moved a bit towards a Buddhist view of life.

[Jawnie]

_{Living in Thailand has cured me of all the sympathies I used to have for buddhism.}

I could see how one could be convinced in just the opposite manner as the OP question regarding farang converting to Buddhism in Thailand. Thai Buddhism is very narrow spectrum of the entire range fo Buddhist teachings. Add to that the fact the monks are legally constrained from civil and political discourse or activism, they have little to show for their efforts. While Thais supposedly place a high value on their monks and Buddhism, the fact is that the clergy are relegated to side-lines role because the Army and other uniquely Thai institutions rank higher and hold the power in Thai society. All in all, Thai Buddhism isn't very inspiring or inviting and made worse by the fact that it's mostly conducted in Thai language.

[nidieunimaitre]

I do recognise however that many have changed their attitudes towards life and other people since coming to live here. I know that I certainly have.

Maybe we should have a poll on the question.

I don't have an answer, but I suspect Bagwan's observation is spot on, and probably many expats who've been here a while have found that their attitudes have moved a bit towards a Buddhist view of life.

Of course i can only speak from MY experience.

I have tried - and completely failed - to change the attitudes of my thai family away from materialism.

And yes, i do realise that to abstain from cars, TV, expensive clothes, smart phones, etc is difficult when you have never had them, but being born in a buddhist country should help?!

[rockyysdt]

I have tried - and completely failed - to change the attitudes of my thai family away from materialism.

What many do is attempt to change anothers conditioning with their own conditioning.

The best thing we can do is concentrate on changing our own attitudes (conditioning).

More importantly, through awareness and concentration, we can learn what our own attitudes are and then travel without being attached to them.

Edited August 31, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

I do recognise however that many have changed their attitudes towards life and other people since coming to live here. I know that I certainly have.

Maybe we should have a poll on the question.

I don't have an answer, but I suspect Bagwan's observation is spot on, and probably many expats who've been here a while have found that their attitudes have moved a bit towards a Buddhist view of life.

Of course i can only speak from MY experience.

I have tried - and completely failed - to change the attitudes of my thai family away from materialism.

And yes, i do realise that to abstain from cars, TV, expensive clothes, smart phones, etc is difficult when you have never had them, but being born in a buddhist country should help?!

Just an open question - not a leading one. Are we sweeping with too broad a brush when we refer to "Thais" in relation to materialism? Regardless of identification with Buddhism in some form, are urban Thais different in this respect from rural Thais? And are Sino-Thais, who in my experience are often avowedly materialistic, different from other Thais?

Another one. Is the accumulation of wealth and the desire to do so at odds with lay Buddhism? Did the Buddha ever advise householders to live lives of austerity and put away material goods? Is the issue not the desire for property, cars, smart phones and the like, but the priority such things have in one's values system and the degree of suffering that would occur should such things be taken away? The Dhammakaya movement, which epitomizes and is emblematic of conventional views on Buddhist practice in Thailand, gives high status to the accumulation of wealth (and, especially, the redirection of some of that wealth to the movement). It argues that the Buddha approved of householders seeking a better material life and recommended the Dhamma as an aid in doing so. It also points to the traditional practice in Thailand of making merit by donating material goods, including money.

[rics21]

We are getting deeper.

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[IMA_FARANG]

You need to understand that your PERCEPTION of Buddhisim most often has a lot to do with the culture you grew up in and/or the culture where you were introduced to "Buddhisim".

If your introduction to Buddhisim is in Thailand or you grew up in Thailand your perception of what Buddhisim is will be very different from a western educated and English speaking person who was introduced to Buddhisim in university in the U.S.

Tibetian Buddhist practices, Japanese Buddhist practices, Chinese Budhist practices, Korean Buddhist practices...or whatever....are quite different from Thai Buddhist practices here in Thailand.

If you fixate your perception only on Buddhisim as actually practiced here in Thailand....if in your perception (or perhaps more properly your fixed pre-conceptions about Buddhisim).....then you can easily be convinced that that one practice is the "real" Buddhisim and all other varients of practice are not "real" Buddhisim and therefore "wrong".

That attitude is an illusion....a fixed pre-conception generated by your mind....and an error of perception.

In short..."real Buddhisim"...whatever that means...is bigger and more diverse and varied that what many Buddhists think they know.

And as for the matierialism thing...Buddha never said that matierial objects were to be rejected out of hand.He merely tried to point out that the headlong pursuit of matierial things was a detriment of understanding that should be the goal of a follower of Buddhisim.

Rather like the difference between enjoying an occasional choclolate fudge sundae.....and eating a half-gallon tub of chocolate ice cream all at once.

[nidieunimaitre]

Back to topic.

The OP claimed that when living in Thailand most farangs move towards buddhism.

I wonder what the OP bases this idea on.

I assure you that living in Thailand has made me move away from buddhism.

I claim this is the case for most farangs (my claim is based on what i read in this forum and on conversations).

[rockyysdt]

You need to understand that your PERCEPTION of Buddhisim most often has a lot to do with the culture you grew up in and/or the culture where you were introduced to "Buddhisim".

If your introduction to Buddhisim is in Thailand or you grew up in Thailand your perception of what Buddhisim is will be very different from a western educated and English speaking person who was introduced to Buddhisim in university in the U.S.

Tibetian Buddhist practices, Japanese Buddhist practices, Chinese Budhist practices, Korean Buddhist practices...or whatever....are quite different from Thai Buddhist practices here in Thailand.

If you fixate your perception only on Buddhisim as actually practiced here in Thailand....if in your perception (or perhaps more properly your fixed pre-conceptions about Buddhisim).....then you can easily be convinced that that one practice is the "real" Buddhisim and all other varients of practice are not "real" Buddhisim and therefore "wrong".

That attitude is an illusion....a fixed pre-conception generated by your mind....and an error of perception.

In short..."real Buddhisim"...whatever that means...is bigger and more diverse and varied that what many Buddhists think they know.

Extremely perceptive and worth being mindful of.

One could easily become uncomprimising in their attachment to their preconception and miss the Buddhas message and teachings completely.

Rather, it is much better to loosley observe and be guided by actual experience generated from the natural process which arises from the practice of the eightfold path.

[StreetCowboy]

Back to topic.

The OP claimed that when living in Thailand most farangs move towards buddhism.

I wonder what the OP bases this idea on.

I assure you that living in Thailand has made me move away from buddhism.

I claim this is the case for most farangs (my claim is based on what i read in this forum and on conversations).

I think he bases it on his own experience hanging roudn temples and the like.

Hanging round the girlie bars, I have not noticed the phenomenon.

SC

[rics21]

Back to topic.

The OP claimed that when living in Thailand most farangs move towards buddhism.

I wonder what the OP bases this idea on.

I assure you that living in Thailand has made me move away from buddhism.

I claim this is the case for most farangs (my claim is based on what i read in this forum and on conversations).

I think he bases it on his own experience hanging roudn temples and the like.

Hanging round the girlie bars, I have not noticed the phenomenon.

SC

Don't u find farangs with Buddhist amulets and thick gold chains in the bars?

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[fabianfred]

In my case one of the main attractions for me to thailand was the fact that it is a Buddhist country. I had already been a Buddhist for many years, but only by study.... I had never been to a temple or met a monk until i came here.

Seeing the laid-back attitudes and friendliness of the Thais I put it down to the religion.

One of the main reasons I decided to retire here...20 years ago.

I have since learned the truth about peoples knowledge and attitude to Buddhism here..... it is a pity they have the wrong end of the stick and are led astray by many monks who do not know the true teachings either.....or perhaps know but do not practice so have no wisdom.

[Gaccha]

If only he had found the ritual funerals to the Mae Nak ghost or the amulets of Somdet Dto then he would have been convinced of the virtue of Thai Buddhism. >> sarcasm ends here

[bankei]

Back to topic.

The OP claimed that when living in Thailand most farangs move towards buddhism.

I wonder what the OP bases this idea on.

I assure you that living in Thailand has made me move away from buddhism.

I claim this is the case for most farangs (my claim is based on what i read in this forum and on conversations).

I must say the same for me. I became a Buddhist over 30 years ago and have moved away from it after a few years in Thailand. I no longer call myself a Buddhist, but am still attracted to the teachings - but not the teachers.

Bankei

[nidieunimaitre]

In my opinion, religions are based on noble ideas and principles ( - and so are communism and free market.)

But the reality is always different, even opposite.

Rituals and power (hierarchy) destroy even the most noble intentions.

So i see no reason to change one religion for an other.

[rockyysdt]

So i see no reason to change one religion for an other.

If a religion is based on fiction then the only thing one should be mindful of is the possible destruction of noble intentions.

On the other hand, if you have a path/practice (not religion) by which you are able to progressively grow your awareness of what is real, then this is worthwhile.

It's just a pity that many before us turned it into a religion.

If you adopt what the Buddha taught, it's up to you whether you adopt a religion or adopt a path/practice!

Edited September 2, 2012 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

So i see no reason to change one religion for an other.

If a religion is based on fiction then the only thing one should be mindful of is the possible destruction of noble intentions.

On the other hand, if you have a path/practice (not religion) by which you are able to progressively grow your awareness of what is real, then this is worthwhile.

It's just a pity that many before us turned it into a religion.

If you adopt what the Buddha taught, it's up to you whether you adopt a religion or adopt a path/practice!

I can theoretically sympathise with that vieuw.

But is this not the vieuw of those who are fortunate enough to be able to afford it?

Does it in reality not come down to 'rich stay rich, poor stay poor'? - which to me is what hard core religions say too?

So why change from one to another.

[khaowong1]

The problem I see from the majority of the posters here is, they either forgot or didn't know that the Buddha was born approx. 600 years before Jesus. There wasn't a Christian religion around. The only people the Buddha ran into was Brahmins or Hindu's as it's called now. And the Hindu's had a religious program that the Buddha didn't subscribe to. He taught what he thought was the correct path to freedom of the suffering we go through in our daily lives. Yes, his teachings have been corrupted, as has the teachings of Jesus. But his teachings are still relevant today.

A. Love each other, forgive each other, be supportive of each other, be compassionate of each other.

B. And when everything else fails or seems to fall apart, go back and read A. again.

C. From the moment of our birth, the clock is ticking down to our death. go back and read A. again.

D. If you want to believe in a God, go ahead, the Buddha never said not to. go back and read A. again.

[nidieunimaitre]

The problem I see from the majority of the posters here is, they either forgot or didn't know that the Buddha was born approx. 600 years before Jesus. There wasn't a Christian religion around. The only people the Buddha ran into was Brahmins or Hindu's as it's called now. And the Hindu's had a religious program that the Buddha didn't subscribe to. He taught what he thought was the correct path to freedom of the suffering we go through in our daily lives. Yes, his teachings have been corrupted, as has the teachings of Jesus. But his teachings are still relevant today.

A. Love each other, forgive each other, be supportive of each other, be compassionate of each other.

B. And when everything else fails or seems to fall apart, go back and read A. again.

C. From the moment of our birth, the clock is ticking down to our death. go back and read A. again.

D. If you want to believe in a God, go ahead, the Buddha never said not to. go back and read A. again.

Point A sounds realy good, but....

If the other oppresses me and is not going to stop doing that out of his own free will.

What can i do ? Wait for my reward in next life / heaven / nirvana?

Is that not what all religions come down too, 'accept injustice?'

So why change from one religion to an other?

[rockyysdt]

But is this not the vieuw of those who are fortunate enough to be able to afford it?

Does it in reality not come down to 'rich stay rich, poor stay poor'? - which to me is what hard core religions say too?

So why change from one to another.

I don't understand.

Can you elaborate a little more?

[rockyysdt]

Point A sounds realy good, but....

If the other oppresses me and is not going to stop doing that out of his own free will.

What can i do ? Wait for my reward in next life / heaven / nirvana?

Is that not what all religions come down too, 'accept injustice?'

So why change from one religion to an other?

Who is going to oppress you?

With the practice of the eightfold path there is immediate/medium/long term benefits.

You don't have to die.

The eightfold path is a living practice.

As I said earlier, people took the Buddhas teachings and fashioned them into a religion.

If you change to a religion, then for sure, why should you change?

If you actually learn the practice which the Buddha taught, you'll find that you aren't practicing a religion.

Just as we need to practice exercise (cardio and weight bearing), and sensible diet, why also need to practice becoming aware.

Aware of our bodies, aware of our minds, aware of our feelings, aware of how we interact with others and the world.

Practicing the eightfold path is a matter of learning to become aware and deepening this skill.

What awareness reveals to you over time is for you to gauge and decide if it has value.

No one else can tell you. You have the opportunity to experience for yourself, while you live.

Don't immerse yourself in the metaphysical (religion).

If it exists, it is something we are unable to understand nor comprehend.

What is important to us lies within our world.

What is important is to gain personal experience through practice.

I don't understand.

Why do you always direct your attention to "religion"?

Edited September 3, 2012 by rockyysdt

[hookedondhamma]

This thread title has got to be one of the most mis-leading I've ever encountered. At least it brings forth discussion, though - can't be a bad thing.

[camerata]

Looking at the original post and the topic title, I think the poster's theory is that since westerners he knows tended to become more Buddhist the longer they spent in Thailand, all of us living here ultimately become Buddhists by a process of osmosis.

There is a hole in that theory, though. The average farang who moves to Thailand and lives in a family setting inevitably gets caught up in the kind of Buddhist practices that promote social cohesion and finds that joining in makes him fit in better. His wife probably gives him an amulet for protection and he feels obliged to wear it. If the family do a merit-making trip, he goes along. And so on. But this does not mean he has "converted" to Buddhism, or even that he knows the teachings.

I think it's unlikely any westerner would become a Buddhist without actually reading the teachings and testing some of them. That's been my experience. I spent my first 20 years in Thailand without having the slightest interest in Buddhism.

[nidieunimaitre]

This thread title has got to be one of the most mis-leading I've ever encountered. At least it brings forth discussion, though - can't be a bad thing.

I think the "miss-leading" originates from the confusion that exists (and is aggravated by the OP), the confusion between "buddhism" and "thai buddhism".

I just simply can not imagine any farangs being attracted to thai buddhism.

Thai buddhism is in my vieuw at the very best just another "13- in -a -dozen" religion.

Yet that is clearly what the OP is saying, "westerners are attracted by thai buddhism."

By the way, where is the OP?

As for the pros and cons of western style buddhism, now that would make an interesting discussion - but very off topic of course.