Former Thai Pm Abhisit In Court Over 'red Shirt' Protest Deaths

[phiphidon]

Convenient, truly so. The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack would agree with you, I'm sure. vanderGrift foolishly running around with the military on the 19th (but surviving) would agree.

Obviously and surely clear for all to see, those red-shirt protesters were really, really peaceful, all of them. Cross my heart and hope to live.

BTW welcome back. I hope you managed to get a nice suntan

I think you know full well where I've been rubl.

I'm not sure what your emotive reference to the "The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack" has to do with the peaceful red shirt protesters. I thought you would have understood by now that the people who were firing grenades around the place were not peaceful people, I mean it's obvious - as is your stance on who you think was responsible for those grenade attacks.

But this is where I have a problem - as far as I am aware no red shirt protester, peaceful or otherwise in your eyes, has been found responsible for the grenade attacks on Sala Daeng or the attack that Vandergrift was caught up in. But,no not you, you guarantee it was the redshirts; ergo all of the red shirts are non peaceful. So there is the problem, when you break your "argument" down to its salient points it's all based on your supposition, not a shred of evidence, just what you've heard on the TV or read in the papers. You happening to use the same station albeit at a completely different time does not comprise an eyewitness account.

Emotive reference? red-shirts peaceful? No-one knows? So all is well again, isn't it?

I don't think there are many times if at all I have accused red-shirts. Mind you with all and especially some equating Pheu Thai - UDD - red-shirts I may have slipped once or twice

I guarantee nothing, only that I did see the ugliness of the red camp with my very own eyes walking past, talking with some (Thai) people. I saw red-shirts, yellow-shirts, multicolour-shirts, police and army in full uniform (sweating a wee bit). I 'missed' the grenades on BTS Sala Daeng having passed a few hours before. I did not witness atrocities or shooting as I stayed away from violence I as farang should not get myself involved in. I'm not a hero neither a foolish photo-reporter, and never did I ever say I was.

The fact that no one is found responsible yet doesn't mean that obviously it must have been the government and 'probably' k. Abhisit himself. It wasn't k. Thaksin for sure, he was only standing way, way behind his red-shirts, shopping in Paris as you might remember. There are (non-shopped) photo's to prove so.

I do accuse, yes, mostly fools like you that is.

BTW I do not know where you've been, but I must admit the idea of you having been sent to purgatory for awhile to contemplate your sins seems proper. Nothing personal of course, just putting it in perspective

(PS: where were you at the time, of the 'unrest' that is?)

When you learn to post a reply without resorting to insults in the open,

"mostly fools like you that is",

or veiled behind your very own "insult firewall",

"I must admit the idea of you having been sent to purgatory for awhile to contemplate your sins seems proper. Nothing personal of course, just putting it in perspective"

I might consider replying to you, in a non aggressive manner of course, unlike yourself....................

[Nickymaster]

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

Typical BS

• At the Government House,Sondhi Limthongkul, however, stated demonstrations would continue: "I am warning you, the government and police, that you are putting fuel on the fire. Once you arrest me, thousands of people will tear you apart."
  
• Armed PAD forces "Srivichai Warriors" seized a government television broadcaster as well as several government ministries.
  
• the PAD formally renounced non-violence and vowed bloody revenge.
  
• the PAD blockaded Parliament prior to a crucial legislative session, used hijacked public buses to take control of the government's provisional offices
  
• The PAD was defiant. PAD leader Suriyasai Katasila announced that the PAD would fight off police.
  
• Suriyasai also threatened to use human shields if police attempted to disperse the PAD.
  
• the PAD was paying people to join them at the airport, with extra payment being given to parents bringing babies and children.
  
• At one checkpoint, police found 15 home-made guns, an axe and other weapons in a Dharma Army six-wheel truck taking 20 protesters to Suvarnabhumi airport
  
• Another checkpoint found an Uzi submachine gun, homemade guns, ammunition, sling shots, bullet-proof vests and metal rods. The vehicle had the universally recognised Red Cross signs on its exterior to give the impression it was being used for medical emergencies.
  
• another police checkpoint, about 2 kilometers from the airport, was attacked by armed PAD forces in vehicles, causing the police to withdraw.
  
• A plainclothes policewoman at the airport was identified and captured by PAD security forces and forced onto the main PAD stage inside the airport. Angry PAD protesters threw water at her and many tried to hit her.
  
• Police eventually regained control of the NBT building and arrested 80 of the raiders, seizing guns, knives, golf clubs, and drugs. The raiders were charged with causing damage to public property and illegal possession of weapons and drugs.
  
• Journalists at PAD-controlled Government House reported that they were intimidated, pelted with water bottles, and attacked with a metal pipe.
  
• A photographer from the Thai-language newspaper Thai Rath was attacked by PAD security forces after he took photos of them beating a man at Don Muang airport.
  
• A TNN television truck was repeatedly shot at by PAD security forces while lost in PAD-controlled Don Muang airport. Phanumart Jaihork, a TNN relay controller, said his truck came under heavy gunfire even though it carried the logos of the company and TV station on its sides and a microwave transmitter in its bed.
  

And the topic is: Former Thai PM Abhisit In Court Over 'red shirt' Protest death.

I think you are at the wrong please with your BS.

[phiphidon]

So the story is that the "Black Shirts" (in quotes because some, errrmm, simple minded people seem to assume that it means they always, compulsory had to wear full black) allegiance is unknown, hinting at being agent provocateurs from the government.

So let's count who would be in that conspiracy, of course Abhisit and Suthep, positively chomping at the bit to get people killed (since that would be so beneficial to them), then the army, obviously. Now here sacrifices needed be done so the Army, as part of the plan kills a number of their own, including such men of little importance as the commander of the Queens Guards, to really, really make it look like it's not them doing the killing. Also in the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirt leaders, calling this mysterious men their "guardian angels" and telling the Red Shirts how they would come to their protection to fight against the Army, let's not forget Kattiya prancing about with a grenade pin festooned hat going wink-wink-nudge-nudge about his "Ronin Warriors". Also into the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirts themselves, pretending the heavily armed men milling around them were part of the group for the time being, so later they could claim that it was the Army all along.

My head hurts, what we need here is some meddling kids I think.

A mind open to possibilities other than those peddled by the Army spokesmen and government of the time may go some way to help you with your head pains. Those possibilities could include

1) a PM in lockdown with the army in barracks gradually losing control of the military forces and it's tactics

2) not helped by a deputy placed in charge of CRES who is morally bereft,

3) an army spokesman who is paid to lie and does so outrageously,

4) the sure knowledge that all of ones actions carried out under an emergency decree (handily put in place just days before the first major crackdown and bloodletting took place) that would absolve the major players of all responsibility,

5) control of nearly all information in the public domain and

6) an army split into various factions as evidenced by the furore and levelling of LM charges on Jaturporn for pointing out which divisions of the army were called upon to carry out the crackdown and its subsequent losses whilst certain other divisions were kept in barracks and

7) again further evidenced by promotions awarded after the crackdown has taken place

8) an "investigating" committee set up to investigate the events leading up to the crackdown on the 9th May 2010 by the the very person at the centre of that crackdown, but without any sub poena powers to call witnesses.

9) The investigating division, the DSI being pressurised to slow down investigation and in at least one case change its conclusion (during the democrat parties term of office)

10) Complete non co operation of the security forces into providing evidence during the remainder of the democrat parties term of office (now "co-operating" with the inquests but in a risible manner - no live rounds etc.

and those are just a few instances. I'm sure you could think of a few anomalies yourself, even if you don't want to admit it.............

[birdpooguava]

June 1, 2012

Yes thjs is much worse than the attack on Thaicom or the Asian Summit. You are right, an expensive photo camera is a dangerous weapon!.

No, not worse, just similar.

[AleG]

So the story is that the "Black Shirts" (in quotes because some, errrmm, simple minded people seem to assume that it means they always, compulsory had to wear full black) allegiance is unknown, hinting at being agent provocateurs from the government.

So let's count who would be in that conspiracy, of course Abhisit and Suthep, positively chomping at the bit to get people killed (since that would be so beneficial to them), then the army, obviously. Now here sacrifices needed be done so the Army, as part of the plan kills a number of their own, including such men of little importance as the commander of the Queens Guards, to really, really make it look like it's not them doing the killing. Also in the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirt leaders, calling this mysterious men their "guardian angels" and telling the Red Shirts how they would come to their protection to fight against the Army, let's not forget Kattiya prancing about with a grenade pin festooned hat going wink-wink-nudge-nudge about his "Ronin Warriors". Also into the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirts themselves, pretending the heavily armed men milling around them were part of the group for the time being, so later they could claim that it was the Army all along.

My head hurts, what we need here is some meddling kids I think.

A mind open to possibilities other than those peddled by the Army spokesmen and government of the time may go some way to help you with your head pains. Those possibilities could include

1) a PM in lockdown with the army in barracks gradually losing control of the military forces and it's tactics

2) not helped by a deputy placed in charge of CRES who is morally bereft,

3) an army spokesman who is paid to lie and does so outrageously,

4) the sure knowledge that all of ones actions carried out under an emergency decree (handily put in place just days before the first major crackdown and bloodletting took place) that would absolve the major players of all responsibility,

5) control of nearly all information in the public domain and

6) an army split into various factions as evidenced by the furore and levelling of LM charges on Jaturporn for pointing out which divisions of the army were called upon to carry out the crackdown and its subsequent losses whilst certain other divisions were kept in barracks and

7) again further evidenced by promotions awarded after the crackdown has taken place

8) an "investigating" committee set up to investigate the events leading up to the crackdown on the 9th May 2010 by the the very person at the centre of that crackdown, but without any sub poena powers to call witnesses.

9) The investigating division, the DSI being pressurised to slow down investigation and in at least one case change its conclusion (during the democrat parties term of office)

10) Complete non co operation of the security forces into providing evidence during the remainder of the democrat parties term of office (now "co-operating" with the inquests but in a risible manner - no live rounds etc.

and those are just a few instances. I'm sure you could think of a few anomalies yourself, even if you don't want to admit it.............

Sure, I can think of other instances. Hmmm, the Black Shirts were shape shifting reptiloids from Alpha Centauri... it was Spike Lee's last movie shooting gone horribly wrong... etc, etc...

Now, tell us, why haven't the Red Shirts come forward to help identify the armed men mingling among them? Wouldn't you be upset about having armed men starting a fire fight in the middle of your peaceful protests?, wouldn't you want to know who they were? Why haven't they come forward with testimonies, photos and videos? They were there, for weeks, yet not a squeak to help identify this provocateurs; odd, isn't it?

[birdpooguava]

So the story is that the "Black Shirts" (in quotes because some, errrmm, simple minded people seem to assume that it means they always, compulsory had to wear full black) allegiance is unknown, hinting at being agent provocateurs from the government.

So let's count who would be in that conspiracy, of course Abhisit and Suthep, positively chomping at the bit to get people killed (since that would be so beneficial to them), then the army, obviously. Now here sacrifices needed be done so the Army, as part of the plan kills a number of their own, including such men of little importance as the commander of the Queens Guards, to really, really make it look like it's not them doing the killing. Also in the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirt leaders, calling this mysterious men their "guardian angels" and telling the Red Shirts how they would come to their protection to fight against the Army, let's not forget Kattiya prancing about with a grenade pin festooned hat going wink-wink-nudge-nudge about his "Ronin Warriors". Also into the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirts themselves, pretending the heavily armed men milling around them were part of the group for the time being, so later they could claim that it was the Army all along.

My head hurts, what we need here is some meddling kids I think.

The government certainly had a lot to gain from alleged red violence. I don't know why we continually hear the party line on TV about the reds benefiting from things turning violent.

[AleG]

The government certainly had a lot to gain from alleged red violence. I don't know why we continually hear the party line on TV about the reds benefiting from things turning violent.

Alleged violence?

Red Shirt violence, actual acts and incitement to it is anything but alleged, it's a stone hard fact.

[phiphidon]

So the story is that the "Black Shirts" (in quotes because some, errrmm, simple minded people seem to assume that it means they always, compulsory had to wear full black) allegiance is unknown, hinting at being agent provocateurs from the government.

So let's count who would be in that conspiracy, of course Abhisit and Suthep, positively chomping at the bit to get people killed (since that would be so beneficial to them), then the army, obviously. Now here sacrifices needed be done so the Army, as part of the plan kills a number of their own, including such men of little importance as the commander of the Queens Guards, to really, really make it look like it's not them doing the killing. Also in the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirt leaders, calling this mysterious men their "guardian angels" and telling the Red Shirts how they would come to their protection to fight against the Army, let's not forget Kattiya prancing about with a grenade pin festooned hat going wink-wink-nudge-nudge about his "Ronin Warriors". Also into the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirts themselves, pretending the heavily armed men milling around them were part of the group for the time being, so later they could claim that it was the Army all along.

My head hurts, what we need here is some meddling kids I think.

A mind open to possibilities other than those peddled by the Army spokesmen and government of the time may go some way to help you with your head pains. Those possibilities could include

1) a PM in lockdown with the army in barracks gradually losing control of the military forces and it's tactics

2) not helped by a deputy placed in charge of CRES who is morally bereft,

3) an army spokesman who is paid to lie and does so outrageously,

4) the sure knowledge that all of ones actions carried out under an emergency decree (handily put in place just days before the first major crackdown and bloodletting took place) that would absolve the major players of all responsibility,

5) control of nearly all information in the public domain and

6) an army split into various factions as evidenced by the furore and levelling of LM charges on Jaturporn for pointing out which divisions of the army were called upon to carry out the crackdown and its subsequent losses whilst certain other divisions were kept in barracks and

7) again further evidenced by promotions awarded after the crackdown has taken place

8) an "investigating" committee set up to investigate the events leading up to the crackdown on the 9th May 2010 by the the very person at the centre of that crackdown, but without any sub poena powers to call witnesses.

9) The investigating division, the DSI being pressurised to slow down investigation and in at least one case change its conclusion (during the democrat parties term of office)

10) Complete non co operation of the security forces into providing evidence during the remainder of the democrat parties term of office (now "co-operating" with the inquests but in a risible manner - no live rounds etc.

and those are just a few instances. I'm sure you could think of a few anomalies yourself, even if you don't want to admit it.............

Sure, I can think of other instances. Hmmm, the Black Shirts were shape shifting reptiloids from Alpha Centauri... it was Spike Lee's last movie shooting gone horribly wrong... etc, etc...

Now, tell us, why haven't the Red Shirts come forward to help identify the armed men mingling among them? Wouldn't you be upset about having armed men starting a fire fight in the middle of your peaceful protests?, wouldn't you want to know who they were? Why haven't they come forward with testimonies, photos and videos? They were there, for weeks, yet not a squeak to help identify this provocateurs; odd, isn't it?

Perhaps you may wish to read Paul Chambers thoughts on the subject - try "Factionalism and Fissures in Thailands Military Today", it may help you to understand.

[KireB]

So the story is that the "Black Shirts" (in quotes because some, errrmm, simple minded people seem to assume that it means they always, compulsory had to wear full black) allegiance is unknown, hinting at being agent provocateurs from the government.

So let's count who would be in that conspiracy, of course Abhisit and Suthep, positively chomping at the bit to get people killed (since that would be so beneficial to them), then the army, obviously. Now here sacrifices needed be done so the Army, as part of the plan kills a number of their own, including such men of little importance as the commander of the Queens Guards, to really, really make it look like it's not them doing the killing. Also in the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirt leaders, calling this mysterious men their "guardian angels" and telling the Red Shirts how they would come to their protection to fight against the Army, let's not forget Kattiya prancing about with a grenade pin festooned hat going wink-wink-nudge-nudge about his "Ronin Warriors". Also into the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirts themselves, pretending the heavily armed men milling around them were part of the group for the time being, so later they could claim that it was the Army all along.

My head hurts, what we need here is some meddling kids I think.

The government certainly had a lot to gain from alleged red violence. I don't know why we continually hear the party line on TV about the reds benefiting from things turning violent.

LOL what did the government have to gain from a violent showdown it had been avoiding all the time? Explain if you can, which I doubt.

[AleG]

Sure, I can think of other instances. Hmmm, the Black Shirts were shape shifting reptiloids from Alpha Centauri... it was Spike Lee's last movie shooting gone horribly wrong... etc, etc...

Now, tell us, why haven't the Red Shirts come forward to help identify the armed men mingling among them? Wouldn't you be upset about having armed men starting a fire fight in the middle of your peaceful protests?, wouldn't you want to know who they were? Why haven't they come forward with testimonies, photos and videos? They were there, for weeks, yet not a squeak to help identify this provocateurs; odd, isn't it?

Perhaps you may wish to read Paul Chambers thoughts on the subject - try "Factionalism and Fissures in Thailands Military Today", it may help you to understand.

Does it explain why Red Shirts don't come forward to help identify the armed Black Shirts among them?, why they considered them their protectors?

[jonclark]

Hey Birdpoo - You still haven't answered my question - Who killed the soldiers. Stop hiding.

[kutjebu]

New York-based Human Rights Watch has accused the army of using "excessive and unnecessary lethal force" in the crackdown.

That say enough.

[phiphidon]

Aren't videos of black shirts shooting at the army enough evidence?

Sent from my HTC phone.

No, Not really. The Security personnel managed to "arrest" several hundred red shirt supporters, hundreds have been jailed, but Blackshirts? Not even one? And there were 500 "heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters" according to government and military intelligence.

Don't you find that in the least bit, Strange????

Don't get me wrong I'm not disputing there were MIB about (though certainly not 500!) but I find it strange that nobody knows who they were and I don't mean from the red shirt point of view............

Edited August 31, 2012 by phiphidon

[AleG]

The government certainly had a lot to gain from alleged red violence. I don't know why we continually hear the party line on TV about the reds benefiting from things turning violent.

If the Red Shirts didn't benefit from violence, why their continuous calls for violence, and actual (not alleged, actual) violence?

I do remember two sides, one trying to keep the peace and another threatening to burn down the capital, kill the PM, soldiers and "elites"; vouching to fight to the last drop of blood, calling for outright civil war even.

[phiphidon]

Sure, I can think of other instances. Hmmm, the Black Shirts were shape shifting reptiloids from Alpha Centauri... it was Spike Lee's last movie shooting gone horribly wrong... etc, etc...

Now, tell us, why haven't the Red Shirts come forward to help identify the armed men mingling among them? Wouldn't you be upset about having armed men starting a fire fight in the middle of your peaceful protests?, wouldn't you want to know who they were? Why haven't they come forward with testimonies, photos and videos? They were there, for weeks, yet not a squeak to help identify this provocateurs; odd, isn't it?

Perhaps you may wish to read Paul Chambers thoughts on the subject - try "Factionalism and Fissures in Thailands Military Today", it may help you to understand.

Does it explain why Red Shirts don't come forward to help identify the armed Black Shirts among them?, why they considered them their protectors?

Why don't you read it and make your own mind up - I would say yes and yes.

Edit : I would just like to add that I don't agree with the term "the armed Black Shirts among them" as it could be construed as the black shirts were comprised of red shirt supporters.

Edited August 31, 2012 by phiphidon

[AleG]

New York-based Human Rights Watch has accused the army of using "excessive and unnecessary lethal force" in the crackdown.

That say enough.

I'm certain they did, however that doesn't absolve the Red Shirts and their associates from their crimes and responsibility neither indicates that the excesses were part of the ROE set by the government.

[AleG]

Perhaps you may wish to read Paul Chambers thoughts on the subject - try "Factionalism and Fissures in Thailands Military Today", it may help you to understand.

Does it explain why Red Shirts don't come forward to help identify the armed Black Shirts among them?, why they considered them their protectors?

Why don't you read it and make your own mind up - I would say yes and yes.

Edit : I would just like to add that I don't agree with the term "the armed Black Shirts among them" as it could be construed as the black shirts were comprised of red shirt supporters.

From the article, regarding April 10th:

The assault is believed to have been carried out by ―well-trained army

officers‖ acting as mercenaries who are aligned with a pro-Thaksin clique of junior/retired military officers

embittered by the current military leadership. These same ―watermelon‖ soldiers were alleged to have fired

grenades at sites identified as anti-Thaksin entities.

...

Army Special Maj. Gen. Khattiya Sawasdipol (nicknamed Sae Daeng) were furthermore seen by some as organizing UDD ―troops.‖

So the answer is they don't come forward because the Black Shirts were on their side? Well, knock me over with a feather...

[rixalex]

Even if what you said were true (it is not) they have little reason to be worried. All of of this business is just an attempt to provide Thaksin with some leverage along the lines of, we forget what happened in 2010, you forget Thaksin's "misdemeanour's"... and we'll all be on our merry way.

So show us your evidence Mr. "It is not"

I don't claim to offer my opinions here with corroborating evidence. This is not a court of law. Wikipedia is not evidence.

I have seen a lot and read a lot, much i imagine like you and most others here. My opinions are based on that. And unlike i imagine a lot of people here, i was living and working in Bangkok throughout the protests, and whilst i was never stupid enough to get close to the action, i was close enough at times to be able to say i have first hand experience of this. Some people seem to think that counts for nothing, but if we were discussing another event in history, such as the fall of the Soviet Union, and someone entered the discussion who had lived through it, i think i might be inclined to value their opinion just a little more than someone who had read a lot about it on the internet.

And unlike some people here i suspect, my first hand experience was from the perspective of observer trying to get on with my life, not as some form of participator or supporter, caught up in the tribal propaganda fuelled atmosphere. I did witness a number of farangs who clearly were, and who looked as if they were tagging along with in-laws. I imagine had i spoken to them, their views would have been similar to the ones you offer here.

Anyway, the main point of my post that you completely ignored, was that no matter who is guilty of what in all this mess, the current investigations are simply playing lip-service to the seek for justice. The current government, that was supposed to be so different from the last in terms of not being in cahoots with the military, is gradually slipping into bed with them, reassuring the military that they will not be the focus of these investigations, but that rather the Dems will be. Why? Because it is the Dems who are the main obstacle between them and this Thaksin whitewashing bill, otherwise erroneously known as the reconciliation bill. None of this will bring justice, whatever that is, and none of this will bring truth.... just more political games.

And no, i don't have evidence for any of this. This is my opinion. Feel free to comment on it.

[Noistar]

Isn't part of the problem due to the nature of these confrontations. The 'combatants' don't wear convenient 'I am a red-shirt' t-shirt, so their presence can't be determined with any accuracy.

But if someone is wearing what is, or appears to be, an army uniform, it is taken for granted that is what they are.

Equally, the fact someone is wearing something which may identify them as a 'yellow shirt' doesn't prove anything.

Is there any dispute re who damaged CentralWorld? I heard it was the yellow shirts who did it to make the red-shirts look bad! (naughty yellow shirts).

Add the fact that any perpetrators of violence tend to act cowardly by mingling amongst innocent civilians and it's plain to see that what happened was inevitable.

I don't think the army had the option of asking "hands up who just shot at me, so I can make sure I fire at you and not the innocent people you are hiding amongst".

If this trial, or anything similar, can get a 100% result I'd be very much surprised.

Presence or lack of video footage seems to be a red-herring. This apparently psychic soldier who was meant to video everything, is hardly serious comment.

As was mentioned, until Mr T has the guts to face the music, like Abhisit is, the full picture is unlikely to ever be known.

[OzMick]

Sure, I can think of other instances. Hmmm, the Black Shirts were shape shifting reptiloids from Alpha Centauri... it was Spike Lee's last movie shooting gone horribly wrong... etc, etc...

Now, tell us, why haven't the Red Shirts come forward to help identify the armed men mingling among them? Wouldn't you be upset about having armed men starting a fire fight in the middle of your peaceful protests?, wouldn't you want to know who they were? Why haven't they come forward with testimonies, photos and videos? They were there, for weeks, yet not a squeak to help identify this provocateurs; odd, isn't it?

Perhaps you may wish to read Paul Chambers thoughts on the subject - try "Factionalism and Fissures in Thailands Military Today", it may help you to understand.

Does it explain why Red Shirts don't come forward to help identify the armed Black Shirts among them?, why they considered them their protectors?

Why don't you read it and make your own mind up - I would say yes and yes.

Edit : I would just like to add that I don't agree with the term "the armed Black Shirts among them" as it could be construed as the black shirts were comprised of red shirt supporters.

Black shirts were red shirt supporters? Not necessarily, I agree. They were quite likely apolitical mercenaries, local or foreign, who cared as little for the red shirts as the they did the RTA, and had as little hesitation in shooting them (as the BP has referred over the last few days.)

[Ricardo]

Black shirts were red shirt supporters? Not necessarily, I agree. They were quite likely apolitical mercenaries, local or foreign, who cared as little for the red shirts as the they did the RTA, and had as little hesitation in shooting them (as the BP has referred over the last few days.)

Happily DPM-Chalerm says he knows who the leader of the black-shirts was, a retired senior policeman, so it will be easy to question him about who they were or who gave them their orders, and find out a little more of the truth.

Or perhaps not.

[birdpooguava]

Hey Birdpoo - You still haven't answered my question - Who killed the soldiers. Stop hiding.

Unlike yourself, I don't claim to know the answer. I only point out to those opinionated enough to lay blame, that they may be wrong.

PS The name is Mr. Guava to you.

Edited August 31, 2012 by birdpooguava

[SICHONSTEVE]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

I guess then it would have been impossible for the govt to have had a plain clothed soldier there recording what you saw on a concealed camera.

I was at Ratchaprasong on numerous occasions and never saw 1 armed black or red shirt mingling with the protesters as was claimed by AV, ST & the army spokesman

As I have said before, it was obvious that a very limited number of the reds had some rudimentary weapons, but as for '500 heavily armed terrorists' that was just one of the many lies used by the government to incriminate the reds, justify their existence and their heavy handed tactics.

just because you never saw armed groups at ratchaprasong doesn't mean they didn't exist. The men who I saw were all in civilian clothes and looked exactly like your average Thai. The only thing that set them apart was how they moved physically, and how they carried their weapons calmly confidently and with a purpose. These weren't some technical college students with grandads revolver and a Ping pong bomb over excited and full of bravado. They were quiet, confident and deliberate and around 35-45m years old. Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred.

There is a myth of groups of MIB, there were no MIB, those MIB wore the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection

I see some footage on a Thai TV station showing men dressed all in black getting out of a pick-up and then firing several shots into the crowd (as it seemed) so the 'men in black' DID exist as I watched them in action!!!!

Whether there were others in civilian gear it is difficult to say but I wouldn't be surprised if there were, knowing the types of people the hard-line red shirts are.

[Buchholz]

PS The name is Mr. Guava to you.

.

[whybother]

What was "PAD's recent 'attack' on parliament"? Are you talking about their protest outside parliament where there was no fighting with police and no injuries?

The red shirts attacked and broke through riot squads, injuring army personnel and taking control of army equipment.

June 1, 2012

Now compare them to some of the pictures here: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/unrest_in_thailand.html (from picture 11, particularly picture 23)

[JurgenG]

What was "PAD's recent 'attack' on parliament"? Are you talking about their protest outside parliament where there was no fighting with police and no injuries?

The red shirts attacked and broke through riot squads, injuring army personnel and taking control of army equipment.

June 1, 2012

Now compare them to some of the pictures here: http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html (from picture 11, particularly picture 23)

From the same article

Here under red shirts taking care of a wounded policeman

And the last one, my favorite.

Do you feel any animosity between red shirts and policemen ? Seriously ?

[Buchholz]

It's a real shame that the Red Shirts that wipe the brow of a sweaty soldier don't completely disassociate themselves from the Red Shirts that throw firebombs and hurl rocks at these same soldiers.

It's a real shame that the Red Shirts that tend to wounded soldiers don't openly condemn and remove those Red Shirts from their organization that wounded the soldier in the first place.

It's a shame that these Red Shirts don't fully cooperate with police to see to it that these other Red Shirts are fully prosecuted and punished.

Until such time (I've been waiting 6 years) as those sorts of actions begin to occur.... the Red Shirts are, justifiably, considered as a violent mob.

Their violent reputation is clearly depicted in all the other photos

( I won't post any myself as they are internationally copyrighted and not allowed to be posted on the forum ).

To equate it equally to the discussed yellow shirt protest of last June is baloney.

.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Buchholz

[Thaddeus]

PS The name is Mr. Guava to you.

.

And he likes his Bollinger '73 served off the bone.

[SICHONSTEVE]

What was "PAD's recent 'attack' on parliament"? Are you talking about their protest outside parliament where there was no fighting with police and no injuries?

The red shirts attacked and broke through riot squads, injuring army personnel and taking control of army equipment.

June 1, 2012

Now compare them to some of the pictures here: http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html (from picture 11, particularly picture 23)

From the same article

Here under red shirts taking care of a wounded policeman

And the last one, my favorite.

Do you feel any animosity between red shirts and policemen ? Seriously ?

That's funny!!! I always thought that the red-shirts were sympathetic to the police and vice versa and don't fortget, Thaksin has a degree in 'criminology and some of his best mates are from the police academy that he went to!!!

[weka]

Who's the clown that posted that there is no evidence of Black shirts?