Ferrari That Killed Bangkok Cop Was Doing 200Kph; Red Bull Heir

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

In Sweden 6 young healthy people died from mixing Red Bull with Alcohol and one case from Irleland has also been reported.

LINKS to that proven facts, as you describe it here, please.

But - also when its used as a Alcohol Mixed drink in Bars and Discos, that Red Bull Energy drink and others.

The printing on Red Bull reads, -Do not use it, drink it with alcohol!-

So what, when people use it against that advise?

In Sweden 6 young healthy people died from mixing Red Bull with Alcohol and one case from Irleland has also been reported.

LINKS to that proven facts, as you describe it here, please.

But - also when its used as a Alcohol Mixed drink in Bars and Discos, that Red Bull Energy drink and others.

The printing on Red Bull reads, -Do not use it, drink it with alcohol!-

So what, when people use it against that advise?

here comes the links in Swedish language (you can translate it with google translate) :

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10220070.ab

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10314478.ab on this page it says that the warning text regarding mixing with alcohol was removed in Sweden !!!

http://www.freeride.se/forum/thread.php?t=47758

[MaxYakov]

[ snipped - nested auto computer discussion ]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

Not too hard to do a Google search to identify the ECU term: http://en.wikipedia....ne_control_unit

They're discussing clearing/resetting (reflashing) the memory for a car's computer(s). They got into this discussion, I believe in discussion of the crash Ferrari's EDR (Event Data Recorder - http://en.wikipedia....t_data_recorder ) which would, if it exists, could have recorded the Ferrari's speed and other parameters at the time of the crash. Someone said that the EDR was associated with the ACU (Airbag Control Unit - controls airbag deployment/activation when triggered). I haven't the foggiest idea where or even if the EDR function is performed on this model Ferrari although I would bet that it is.

It can be deduced from this collision case: https://www.accident...r/apr03/edr.asp that one model of Ferrari had EDR functionality as early as 2002. Discussion of the EDR functionality relates directly to this thread because it could be used in court as evidence.

Hope This Helps

Edited September 6, 2012 by MaxYakov

[NomadJoe]

IMHO and from first hand experience, it is practically impossible to drive at 200km/h along that particular stretch of Sukhumvit Road (on both sides around Soi 49). I regularly drive past that area around 5:30am and there are just too many cars, buses and motorcycles to allow any acceleration to 200km/h. I agree that the damage to the motorcycle and car would have to be much more than what is shown in the photos. Again, I'm not defending the guy, I'm just stating my opinion.

Agreed. I'm not defending him either, but I am not buying that speed estimation. I have some training in accident investigation and I have been to a lot of accidents before. At 200kph that bike would have virtually disintegrated and the officer eviscerated, unless the officer was also going very fast. The report I read said he wasn't. There would also be extensive damage to a composite body exotic like a Ferrari which the pictures did not reflect.

[jbrain]

IMHO and from first hand experience, it is practically impossible to drive at 200km/h along that particular stretch of Sukhumvit Road (on both sides around Soi 49). I regularly drive past that area around 5:30am and there are just too many cars, buses and motorcycles to allow any acceleration to 200km/h. I agree that the damage to the motorcycle and car would have to be much more than what is shown in the photos. Again, I'm not defending the guy, I'm just stating my opinion.

Agreed. I'm not defending him either, but I am not buying that speed estimation. I have some training in accident investigation and I have been to a lot of accidents before. At 200kph that bike would have virtually disintegrated and the officer eviscerated, unless the officer was also going very fast. The report I read said he wasn't. There would also be extensive damage to a composite body exotic like a Ferrari which the pictures did not reflect.

I don't know if I can agree with everything in your post.First of all,those exotic cars are made of a composition much lighter than steel,yet more flexible,resilient and strong which could explain the lesser damage.

It is also known that those cars, who are known to reach very high speeds,are build to resist a greater impact than a car that can reach only one third of that speed.

Finally I recall an incident almost 40 years ago,when I was riding to school on my bicycle and was hit from behind by a car at probably 60 - 80 km/h, and the result was that I was simply catapulled( without losing control by the way) and had very minor damage to my bicycle.

[ttelise]

[ snipped - nested auto computer discussion ]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

They're discussing clearing/resetting (reflashing) the memory for a car's computer(s). They got into this discussion, I believe in discussion of the crash Ferrari's EDR (Event Data Recorder - http://en.wikipedia....t_data_recorder ) which would, if it exists, could have recorded the Ferrari's speed and other parameters at the time of the crash.

Yep. Would potentially settle quesitons of speed, breaking before G increase caused by impact and perhaps Gs or amount of impact. Cannot remember about G. I know there are data loggers you can plug into the Ferrari ECU that provides G data. Just not sure if G data coming from data logger of ecu.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

IMHO and from first hand experience, it is practically impossible to drive at 200km/h along that particular stretch of Sukhumvit Road (on both sides around Soi 49). I regularly drive past that area around 5:30am and there are just too many cars, buses and motorcycles to allow any acceleration to 200km/h. I agree that the damage to the motorcycle and car would have to be much more than what is shown in the photos. Again, I'm not defending the guy, I'm just stating my opinion.

Agreed. I'm not defending him either, but I am not buying that speed estimation. I have some training in accident investigation and I have been to a lot of accidents before. At 200kph that bike would have virtually disintegrated and the officer eviscerated, unless the officer was also going very fast. The report I read said he wasn't. There would also be extensive damage to a composite body exotic like a Ferrari which the pictures did not reflect.

I don't know if I can agree with everything in your post.First of all,those exotic cars are made of a composition much lighter than steel,yet more flexible,resilient and strong which could explain the lesser damage.

It is also known that those cars, who are known to reach very high speeds,are build to resist a greater impact than a car that can reach only one third of that speed.

Finally I recall an incident almost 40 years ago,when I was riding to school on my bicycle and was hit from behind by a car at probably 60 - 80 km/h, and the result was that I was simply catapulled( without losing control by the way) and had very minor damage to my bicycle.

your definitely dreaming. Exotic sports cars are designed to be light and fast. When they are damage it's spectacular and expensive . Check out http://www.wreckedexotics.com and get back to us.

Edited September 6, 2012 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[mmushr00m]

I lived in that area, the streets in the inner sois are narrow but are pretty well maintained. Some of the more affluent parts even have speed bumps.

I have seen people fly down the sois but usually in burst. With a Ferrari you can probably hit 200km/h but impossible to sustain that speed for more then afew seconds.

But all it takes is afew seconds to kill someone.

[tinfoilhat]

If I were the family of the dead policeman, I wouldn't even let these "people" in to "pay respect" to my beloved family member. Where was the "respect" when he was being dragged for miles under the speeding vehicle? This is just more hi-so poser B.S.

It doesn't work like that here. The Thai guy must go to the funeral, it's expected.

Even so, if I were a family member, I would probably vomit in disgust. The total lack of remorse is obvious in their faces. The dark glasses are probably being worn to hide their shame.

i think you remark is both foolish and contradictory

so what does remorse look like? How does it differ from shame?

I personally am certain that the family is filled with remorse at this point (but perhaps not for the reasons we might expect), one would hope they also feel shame

[gk10002000]

I've seen the photos of the car and the motorcycle, and seriously doubt that the car was doing 200kph. The motorcycle looks in fairly decent condition and would have been completely destroyed if the car had really been doing that speed. I'm not defending the idiot car driver, but I can't believe you can drive that fast on Sukumvit no matter the hour. And I suspect he was fairly drunk. The international press coverage of this tragic event will hopefully bring some much needed reforms to law enforcement in Thailand. Yes, I'm a dreamer...

Well, the car may have been going 200 kph but the motorcycle definitely was not standing still. No way the two hit at over 120 Miles Per Hour relative velocity! Methinks there are lots of bad numbers around and disagreement if the bike was stationary or not.

The part I found interesting was the article says the seat belt unlocked and then the air bag inflated. As an ex Air Force person I NEVER want my harness coming undone. I hope cars don't have break-away seat belt G force functionality.

[ALFREDO]

here comes the links in Swedish language (you can translate it with google translate) :

http://www.aftonblad...icle10220070.ab

http://www.aftonblad...icle10314478.ab on this page it says that the warning text regarding mixing with alcohol was removed in Sweden !!!

http://www.freeride....ead.php?t=47758

I could read in your LINKS

"the doctors now suspect a connection between the deaths and Red Bull"

and

"Dan Anderson is chief of the medical clinic and begins in the fall, a study of deaths along with three colleagues.

He told the newspaper:

- One of my colleagues have had a case, I and another had one each. At the moment I would say that we do not have much information."

and

"Red Bull may have killed four

Researchers will test the drink on 10 young people"

and

"Mats Ostrom at the forensic department at Umeå University lead the new study.

- Either you can put an end to the debate and suspicion or have restrictions based on a scientific basis, he says."

and

"In Sweden, it can be purchased in any store. Only after Red Bull printed dangerousness warnings on the cans."

"The result will probably be reported before Christmas."

and

One Doctor and some researchers in Australia said

"=CAN= be dangerous with high bloodpressure and stress" =CAN= be ......"

"The researchers discovered the unpleasant consequences:

- Their blood was sticky. An abnormal condition that occurs in patients with heart disease, says Scott Willoughby.

Because normal people have blood to heart disease after only a can warn researchers from Adelaide now for the drink.

Those who are stressed and have high blood pressure =CAN= die of drink, according to the researchers.

- Those who are predisposed to heart disease should think twice before they drink Red Bull, says Scott Willoughby."

-HiSoLowSoNoSo-

Nothing is profen and your posting sounded different.

[Arkady]

If that excuse for a man had come to my father/brother/sons funeral ,I would not be able to refrain myself from ripping his head off!

Nauseating scenes of fake condolences like that are only possible because the deceased's family has just received the first installment of blood money and the killer has snorted up a good line of Dutch courage.

[Arkady]

"Senator Samak Chaowaphanun, lawyer for the Yoovidhya family, insisted Worrayuth was not drunk at the time of the accident early on Monday. Samak said Worrayuth did not try to flee the scene but went home to consult his father.

He was not drunk (and/ or high) or trying to flee the scene and was just innocently going to consult his father with a police bike and a dying policeman on his bonnet and an air bag in his face.

[bino]

First of all,those exotic cars are made of a composition much lighter than steel,yet more flexible,resilient and strong which could explain the lesser damage.

your definitely dreaming. Exotic sports cars are designed to be light and fast. When they are damage it's spectacular and expensive . Check out http://www.wreckedexotics.com and get back to us.

What JB says here is correct. The current generation of exotic cars are made almost entirely out of Carbon Fiber - the unitbody frame, and body panels. Carbon Fiber is substantially lighter and substantially stronger than steel. Hence, they get the weight savings for performance, and a safer / more substantial car than those of even a few years ago like the ones on the wrecked exotics website.

[kimamey]

So they were able to find the accident scene from blood drops and oil leaks... But no skid marks at all?

So did he ever even hit the breaks before or after hitting the officer?

If going that fast and hitting the brakes should have caused some serious skid marks?

Probably not if he only slowed down enough from 200 to get the body off his bonnet. I I am no expert but isn't the point of ABS that u can't lock the wheels anyway?

Good point. You'd only get skid marks (no pun intended) from swerving. Like others I have doubts about the speed. I would have thought the damage would be different with an impact of 80 - 90mph although I could be wrong.

[barefoot1988]

there will be some marks when doing ebrake. maybe at least with my peasant car. from my car abs experience, it doesnt feel like it stop wheel from locking but rather releasing brake pressure when it get locked up, it feels like a intermittent wheel locking experience, vibrating.seriously i think higher end abs work differently so i might be wrong and heck . . . you must be real fast to react at 200kph. this dude is lucky not losing control after hitting the bike, had he slam into a lamp post or other object it would be a goner

[webfact]

related topic:

FATAL HIT-AND-RUN

Drunken-driving charge to be added in Ferrari crash

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Krating Daeng managing director Worrayuth Yoovidhya will soon be charged with drunken driving over the fatal hit-and-run in which a policeman was killed, police said yesterday.

Full story:

[maidu]

A fine, no problem for the family for driver's family, particularly when Thai fines are so paltry (10,000 baht for manslaughter). Payments to members of deceased family, no problem for driver's family. However, If the deceased' relatives are going to take a pay-off, they should ask for a hefty amount, like a billion baht. Of course, better would be to let the wheels of justice turn, as rusty as they are in Thailand.

[softgeorge]

[ snipped - nested auto computer discussion ]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

Not too hard to do a Google search to identify the ECU term: http://en.wikipedia....ne_control_unit

They're discussing clearing/resetting (reflashing) the memory for a car's computer(s). They got into this discussion, I believe in discussion of the crash Ferrari's EDR (Event Data Recorder - http://en.wikipedia....t_data_recorder ) which would, if it exists, could have recorded the Ferrari's speed and other parameters at the time of the crash. Someone said that the EDR was associated with the ACU (Airbag Control Unit - controls airbag deployment/activation when triggered). I haven't the foggiest idea where or even if the EDR function is performed on this model Ferrari although I would bet that it is.

It can be deduced from this collision case: https://www.accident...r/apr03/edr.asp that one model of Ferrari had EDR functionality as early as 2002. Discussion of the EDR functionality relates directly to this thread because it could be used in court as evidence.

Hope This Helps

It may not be to hard to google but why should people have to google and translate the riddles on an open forum? Speaking in riddles and text abbreviations turns the topic into a private conversation between a select few. In plain english lay person can read a few lines in seconds, when he is required to google it can take 10 minutes to translate all the riddles.

[MaxYakov]

[ snipped - nested auto computer discussion ]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

Not too hard to do a Google search to identify the ECU term: http://en.wikipedia....ne_control_unit

They're discussing clearing/resetting (reflashing) the memory for a car's computer(s). They got into this discussion, I believe in discussion of the crash Ferrari's EDR (Event Data Recorder - http://en.wikipedia....t_data_recorder ) which would, if it exists, could have recorded the Ferrari's speed and other parameters at the time of the crash. Someone said that the EDR was associated with the ACU (Airbag Control Unit - controls airbag deployment/activation when triggered). I haven't the foggiest idea where or even if the EDR function is performed on this model Ferrari although I would bet that it is.

It can be deduced from this collision case: https://www.accident...r/apr03/edr.asp that one model of Ferrari had EDR functionality as early as 2002. Discussion of the EDR functionality relates directly to this thread because it could be used in court as evidence.

Hope This Helps

It may not be to hard to google but why should people have to google and translate the riddles on an open forum? Speaking in riddles and text abbreviations turns the topic into a private conversation between a select few. In plain english lay person can read a few lines in seconds, when he is required to google it can take 10 minutes to translate all the riddles.

You should write the moderators to have abbreviations/acronyms/initialisms and riddles banned from the forum. ECU and EDR are actually initialisms like NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization).

Frankly, I thought the discussion was slightly off-topic, but I was still bemused and challenged by the race car-related stories and technical snippets submitted by ttelise.

Edited September 7, 2012 by MaxYakov

[Artisi]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

Leave him alone, it gives him a hard-on dreaming about it.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

First of all,those exotic cars are made of a composition much lighter than steel,yet more flexible,resilient and strong which could explain the lesser damage.

your definitely dreaming. Exotic sports cars are designed to be light and fast. When they are damage it's spectacular and expensive . Check out http://www.wreckedexotics.com and get back to us.

What JB says here is correct. The current generation of exotic cars are made almost entirely out of Carbon Fiber - the unitbody frame, and body panels. Carbon Fiber is substantially lighter and substantially stronger than steel. Hence, they get the weight savings for performance, and a safer / more substantial car than those of even a few years ago like the ones on the wrecked exotics website.

It's ALUMINUM body and chassis car. Ferrari FF. Very little structural carbon in this car. Some carbon bits in the interior and that's about it.

http://autos.aol.com...1=USC20FRC161A0

http://www.roadandtr...aluminum-dreams

http://www.autoweek....RNEWS/111039990

Edited September 7, 2012 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[SiamRose]

No forensic engineer required.

The SRS ECU will give details of what time, speed of vehicle at impact, ABS activation and a raft of other information at the exact time the Airbags and seat belt tensioners were deployed. Other ECU's onboard will have data regarding all other mechanical parameters at that time.

It's not rocket science, only a matter of whether the powers that be wish to know the truth. We probably all know the answer to that.

Do you need special Ferrari software and computers to read that information? The sort of thing that would only be owned in Thailand by, say, the Ferrari import company?

[siampreggers]

11 pages from experts of collision physics, supercar manufacturing and body work, and vehicle data recovery and investigation.

Plus a few people showing how they cannot adapt to living in Thailand without infuriating themselves.

Who'd have thought it.

Edited September 7, 2012 by siampreggers

[tinfoilhat]

[ snipped - nested auto computer discussion ]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

Not too hard to do a Google search to identify the ECU term: http://en.wikipedia....ne_control_unit

They're discussing clearing/resetting (reflashing) the memory for a car's computer(s). They got into this discussion, I believe in discussion of the crash Ferrari's EDR (Event Data Recorder - http://en.wikipedia....t_data_recorder ) which would, if it exists, could have recorded the Ferrari's speed and other parameters at the time of the crash. Someone said that the EDR was associated with the ACU (Airbag Control Unit - controls airbag deployment/activation when triggered). I haven't the foggiest idea where or even if the EDR function is performed on this model Ferrari although I would bet that it is.

It can be deduced from this collision case: https://www.accident...r/apr03/edr.asp that one model of Ferrari had EDR functionality as early as 2002. Discussion of the EDR functionality relates directly to this thread because it could be used in court as evidence.

Hope This Helps

It may not be to hard to google but why should people have to google and translate the riddles on an open forum? Speaking in riddles and text abbreviations turns the topic into a private conversation between a select few. In plain english lay person can read a few lines in seconds, when he is required to google it can take 10 minutes to translate all the riddles.

really i think the issue here is your shortcoming, it is a common term, like ABS, used in discussing automobiles, which in this case we are.

Do you generally limit your reading to children's books with pictures to save time by avoiding words you don't know?

And if you cant see that the ecu could give an accurate indication of the cars speed at impact, then well i suspect acronyms are not the problem here.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+ECU+car

was that so hard?

[Thai at Heart]

"Senator Samak Chaowaphanun, lawyer for the Yoovidhya family, insisted Worrayuth was not drunk at the time of the accident early on Monday. Samak said Worrayuth did not try to flee the scene but went home to consult his father.

He was not drunk (and/ or high) or trying to flee the scene and was just innocently going to consult his father with a police bike and a dying policeman on his bonnet and an air bag in his face.

Integrity is cheap in this country.

[Thaddeus]

"Senator Samak Chaowaphanun, lawyer for the Yoovidhya family, insisted Worrayuth was not drunk at the time of the accident early on Monday. Samak said Worrayuth did not try to flee the scene but went home to consult his father.

He was not drunk (and/ or high) or trying to flee the scene and was just innocently going to consult his father with a police bike and a dying policeman on his bonnet and an air bag in his face.

Integrity is cheap in this country.

So is a beer and a life.

[stefb1964]

No forensic engineer required.

The SRS ECU will give details of what time, speed of vehicle at impact, ABS activation and a raft of other information at the exact time the Airbags and seat belt tensioners were deployed. Other ECU's onboard will have data regarding all other mechanical parameters at that time.

It's not rocket science, only a matter of whether the powers that be wish to know the truth. We probably all know the answer to that.

Do you need special Ferrari software and computers to read that information? The sort of thing that would only be owned in Thailand by, say, the Ferrari import company?

Good guessing.

[Stokakrishna]

another murderer will walk free

[Thai at Heart]

"Senator Samak Chaowaphanun, lawyer for the Yoovidhya family, insisted Worrayuth was not drunk at the time of the accident early on Monday. Samak said Worrayuth did not try to flee the scene but went home to consult his father.

He was not drunk (and/ or high) or trying to flee the scene and was just innocently going to consult his father with a police bike and a dying policeman on his bonnet and an air bag in his face.

Integrity is cheap in this country.

So is a beer and a life.

Well we're about to find out aren't we.

[softgeorge]

[ snipped - nested auto computer discussion ]

What on earth has ECU (what ever that is) and tuning motor vehicles got to do with this topic. Isn't there another forum dedicated to cars and petrol heads. ECU and reflashing please speak english so us non grease monkeys know what you are talking about or take it over to the car forum.

Not too hard to do a Google search to identify the ECU term: http://en.wikipedia....ne_control_unit

They're discussing clearing/resetting (reflashing) the memory for a car's computer(s). They got into this discussion, I believe in discussion of the crash Ferrari's EDR (Event Data Recorder - http://en.wikipedia....t_data_recorder ) which would, if it exists, could have recorded the Ferrari's speed and other parameters at the time of the crash. Someone said that the EDR was associated with the ACU (Airbag Control Unit - controls airbag deployment/activation when triggered). I haven't the foggiest idea where or even if the EDR function is performed on this model Ferrari although I would bet that it is.

It can be deduced from this collision case: https://www.accident...r/apr03/edr.asp that one model of Ferrari had EDR functionality as early as 2002. Discussion of the EDR functionality relates directly to this thread because it could be used in court as evidence.

Hope This Helps

It may not be to hard to google but why should people have to google and translate the riddles on an open forum? Speaking in riddles and text abbreviations turns the topic into a private conversation between a select few. In plain english lay person can read a few lines in seconds, when he is required to google it can take 10 minutes to translate all the riddles.

really i think the issue here is your shortcoming, it is a common term, like ABS, used in discussing automobiles, which in this case we are.

Do you generally limit your reading to children's books with pictures to save time by avoiding words you don't know?

And if you cant see that the ecu could give an accurate indication of the cars speed at impact, then well i suspect acronyms are not the problem here.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+ECU+car

was that so hard?

I think you are missing my point. Not everyone here is a car enthusiast just like not everyone collects barbie dolls, spoons or is a Star Wars Nut. Some would not even know what a jack was never mind knowing how to change a tyre. If that as you say is a shortcoming is a person then the shortcoming in yourself would be the lack of understanding that all people are different, they have different pursuits, dreams and hobbies. So using acronyms that only you and a few like minded people may understand is isolating and excluding others from what is suppose to be a public forum. To personally insult someone on thier intelligence simply because they have different interests yourself could also indicate a shortcoming in yourself.

I think if you read my post again, the one that you are responding to, you will see that I was merely responding to others. Some stated thier lack of understanding of the jargon and acronyms used by car enthusiasts and others told them to simply google it. My response was if they put thier post in a language that all understand and not just a select few then there would be no need to google.

Your statement, "And if you cant see that the ecu could give an accurate indication of the cars speed at impact, then well i suspect acronyms are not the problem here." Could you please point out where in my 3 line post I said that a ecu could not give an indication of speed.

I personally do have an understanding of the jargon and acronyms and with 20+ yrs policing I have attended and investigated my fair share of collisions (We use the term collisions not Accidents) ranging from bumps to fatal hit and runs. You will notice that I never speculated on what the driver may or may not have been doing prior to impact, what speed the vehicle may or may not of been travelling or the the mechanical condition. My experience in investigating has taught me that it is very unwise to speculate on something that you are not involved in. My other comments have have been directed at the drivers actions after the impact, ie he fled the scene.

P.S my respone is not meant to offend and if it does I appologise.

Edited September 8, 2012 by softgeorge