Like It Or Not, Corruption Is The Name Of The Game In Thailand

[waza]

No comment.

[simple1]

@ttilise - foreigners living in Thailand & complaining about corruption is a complete waste of breath & will not make any difference whatsoever. Foreign corporations refusing to uplift their bid prices for contracts is a good statement and in compliance with the law in their home countries. However, this stance is avoided by the using a Thai partner. AMLO compliance is used as a threat, but all this will do is increase the cost of money and by extension the increase in the cost of corruption. In addition 90%+ of companies listed on the SET are Thai Chinese owned and also the majority of the power players in Thailand are Thai Chinese, you don't think they are watching out for each other.

He who cannot be named has gone public with the damaging effect of corruption in Thailand, but is ignored. All in all, for the moment very little light at the end of the tunnel.

Edited September 10, 2012 by simple1

[softgeorge]

As much as I've experienced and unhappy with the corruption problem in Thailand, it becomes a normal way of life when more than 2/3 of people don't take it as a problem. Pathetic, though.

I would say 9/10 don't take it as problem.

Is it a problem? just kidding. I think it is a incurable desease in Thailand and the only humane thing to do is to shoot the poor animal and put it out of it's suffering then S/E Asia can move on.

Edited September 10, 2012 by softgeorge

[Chads]

No comment.

No comment? Come on, I'm sure we can work something out

[HowardV]

Just another form of tipping

Tips acronym - To Insure Prompt Service

Love that acronym, but just to note: the ensure you're looking for starts with an 'e.' 'Induce' might work.

[Nisa]

Just another form of tipping

Tips acronym - To Insure Prompt Service

Love that acronym, but just to note: the ensure you're looking for starts with an 'e.' 'Induce' might work.

Well it could be viewed as a form of insurance because it really doesn't guarantee you anything but it kind of like insurance that it provides benefits if prompt service isn't delivered ... in this case you get to bitch a little louder while being ignored.

[cyborgx]

"Lying? White lies only, or more? More than two-thirds, 68.3 per cent, approved lying for survival while slightly under one-third, 31.7 per cent, said they would not lie regardless."

"Survival"? I think something lost in Translation here..... A bit too vague in English to mean anything. Does that mean life or death? Survive Finacially? or something else...... I think 99% of us would lie to save our skins with a gun to our heads....

I do however agree that lies and deceipt in business as well as personal life is more prevalent than in the west. Not to say the west is better, just different values placed on truth and morality, when involved in finacial decisions.

[Nisa]

"Lying? White lies only, or more? More than two-thirds, 68.3 per cent, approved lying for survival while slightly under one-third, 31.7 per cent, said they would not lie regardless."

"Survival"? I think something lost in Translation here..... A bit too vague in English to mean anything. Does that mean life or death? Survive Finacially? or something else...... I think 99% of us would lie to save our skins with a gun to our heads....

I do however agree that lies and deceipt in business as well as personal life is more prevalent than in the west. Not to say the west is better, just different values placed on truth and morality, when involved in finacial decisions.

Much of the west is just as corrupt if not more but because it is legal people accept it, here people accept it because it is a reality. Be it a traffic fine in the west costing a working poor person 20% of their monthly salary or costing a richer person 0.00001% or government officials receiving free lifetime benefits and income their entire life after 1-day on the job and being able to get paid millions after by working for a powerful company to pass other corrupt laws in the companies interest, at the expense of citizens ... billion dollar no bid contracts to rebuild Iraq, million dollar lavish government parties, suppliers paid near a $1,000 for hammers at tax payers .... yes, corruption is not legalized here but just because it is in the west doesn't make it any better.

[ttelise]

"Lying? White lies only, or more? More than two-thirds, 68.3 per cent, approved lying for survival while slightly under one-third, 31.7 per cent, said they would not lie regardless."

"Survival"? I think something lost in Translation here..... A bit too vague in English to mean anything. Does that mean life or death? Survive Finacially? or something else...... I think 99% of us would lie to save our skins with a gun to our heads....

I do however agree that lies and deceipt in business as well as personal life is more prevalent than in the west. Not to say the west is better, just different values placed on truth and morality, when involved in finacial decisions.

Much of the west is just as corrupt if not more but because it is legal people accept it, here people accept it because it is a reality. Be it a traffic fine in the west costing a working poor person 20% of their monthly salary or costing a richer person 0.00001% or government officials receiving free lifetime benefits and income their entire life after 1-day on the job and being able to get paid millions after by working for a powerful company to pass other corrupt laws in the companies interest, at the expense of citizens ... billion dollar no bid contracts to rebuild Iraq, million dollar lavish government parties, suppliers paid near a $1,000 for hammers at tax payers .... yes, corruption is not legalized here but just because it is in the west doesn't make it any better.

Delusion or dishonest. Citing extreme and sometimes very old and odd occurrences. 20 % of what? Daily, weekly, monthly yearly income? Fines are supposed to be deterrent which Thailand could use more if when it comes to road safety.

I worked for government and clerked for State Supreme Court Justice. I got zero retirement unless there 5 years and no real benefits unless there 20. State Judges make a palsy 130,000 or so a year, while the few Federal Judges fair a little better at $175,000. Both number are way below what associates at my firm made 2 to years out. My judicial clerkship out of lawschool paid about 1/5 of what I made my first full year in private practice.

State and public workers get great benefits, but not great pay. Judges by far have the best retirement set up, but I think they needs 10 full years of service to vest at a good percentage and after 20 years of state service get a very strong percentage, but you have to realize they are passing up perhaps several hundred thousand a year to be a judge.

Government contracts are much more transparent these days and a lot of those expensive hammers and toilet seats were budgeted to classified stuff. Contractors get prosecuted for stuff like you mention.

Corruption pervades almost every aspect of Thai daily life. I don't really feel the sting of or see corruption at all in my daily life. If I did, I would do something about.

Edited September 10, 2012 by ttelise

[Nisa]

"Lying? White lies only, or more? More than two-thirds, 68.3 per cent, approved lying for survival while slightly under one-third, 31.7 per cent, said they would not lie regardless."

"Survival"? I think something lost in Translation here..... A bit too vague in English to mean anything. Does that mean life or death? Survive Finacially? or something else...... I think 99% of us would lie to save our skins with a gun to our heads....

I do however agree that lies and deceipt in business as well as personal life is more prevalent than in the west. Not to say the west is better, just different values placed on truth and morality, when involved in finacial decisions.

Much of the west is just as corrupt if not more but because it is legal people accept it, here people accept it because it is a reality. Be it a traffic fine in the west costing a working poor person 20% of their monthly salary or costing a richer person 0.00001% or government officials receiving free lifetime benefits and income their entire life after 1-day on the job and being able to get paid millions after by working for a powerful company to pass other corrupt laws in the companies interest, at the expense of citizens ... billion dollar no bid contracts to rebuild Iraq, million dollar lavish government parties, suppliers paid near a $1,000 for hammers at tax payers .... yes, corruption is not legalized here but just because it is in the west doesn't make it any better.

Delusion or dishonest. Citing extreme and sometimes very old and odd occurrences. 20 % of what? Daily, weekly, monthly yearly income? Fines are supposed to be deterrent which Thailand could use more if when it comes to road safety.

I worked for government and clerked for State Supreme Court Justice. I got zero retirement unless there 5 years and no real benefits unless there 20. State Judges make a palsy 130,000 or so a year, while the few Federal Judges fair a little better at $175,000. Both number are way below what associates at my firm made 2 to years out. My judicial clerkship out of lawschool paid about 1/5 of what I made my first full year in private practice.

State and public workers get great benefits, but not great pay. Judges by far have the best retirement set up, but I think they needs 10 full years of service to vest at a good percentage and after 20 years of state service get a very strong percentage, but you have to realize they are passing up perhaps several hundred thousand a year to be a judge.

Government contracts are much more transparent these days and a lot of those expensive hammers and toilet seats were budgeted to classified stuff. Contractors get prosecuted for stuff like you mention.

Corruption pervades almost every aspect of Thai daily life. I don't really feel the sting of or see corruption at all in my daily life. If I did, I would do something about.

Maybe you should stop obsessing about Thailand so much then if you can't see the corruption in your own country and the one you live as it rates 24th according to Worldwide Corruption Perceptions ranking of countries ... relatively speaking that is not too good for most advances, powerful and richest country in the world. On the other hand Thailand is in the middle for corruption and basically in the middle for the other factors I mentioned.

[ttelise]

"Lying? White lies only, or more? More than two-thirds, 68.3 per cent, approved lying for survival while slightly under one-third, 31.7 per cent, said they would not lie regardless."

"Survival"? I think something lost in Translation here..... A bit too vague in English to mean anything. Does that mean life or death? Survive Finacially? or something else...... I think 99% of us would lie to save our skins with a gun to our heads....

I do however agree that lies and deceipt in business as well as personal life is more prevalent than in the west. Not to say the west is better, just different values placed on truth and morality, when involved in finacial decisions.

Much of the west is just as corrupt if not more but because it is legal people accept it, here people accept it because it is a reality. Be it a traffic fine in the west costing a working poor person 20% of their monthly salary or costing a richer person 0.00001% or government officials receiving free lifetime benefits and income their entire life after 1-day on the job and being able to get paid millions after by working for a powerful company to pass other corrupt laws in the companies interest, at the expense of citizens ... billion dollar no bid contracts to rebuild Iraq, million dollar lavish government parties, suppliers paid near a $1,000 for hammers at tax payers .... yes, corruption is not legalized here but just because it is in the west doesn't make it any better.

Delusion or dishonest. Citing extreme and sometimes very old and odd occurrences. 20 % of what? Daily, weekly, monthly yearly income? Fines are supposed to be deterrent which Thailand could use more if when it comes to road safety.

I worked for government and clerked for State Supreme Court Justice. I got zero retirement unless there 5 years and no real benefits unless there 20. State Judges make a palsy 130,000 or so a year, while the few Federal Judges fair a little better at $175,000. Both number are way below what associates at my firm made 2 to years out. My judicial clerkship out of lawschool paid about 1/5 of what I made my first full year in private practice.

State and public workers get great benefits, but not great pay. Judges by far have the best retirement set up, but I think they needs 10 full years of service to vest at a good percentage and after 20 years of state service get a very strong percentage, but you have to realize they are passing up perhaps several hundred thousand a year to be a judge.

Government contracts are much more transparent these days and a lot of those expensive hammers and toilet seats were budgeted to classified stuff. Contractors get prosecuted for stuff like you mention.

Corruption pervades almost every aspect of Thai daily life. I don't really feel the sting of or see corruption at all in my daily life. If I did, I would do something about.

Maybe you should stop obsessing about Thailand so much then if you can't see the corruption in your own country and the one you live as it rates 24th according to Worldwide Corruption Perceptions ranking of countries ... relatively speaking that is not too good for most advances, powerful and richest country in the world. On the other hand Thailand is in the middle for corruption and basically in the middle for the other factors I mentioned.

Once again, you misinterpret data or just attempt to distort facts to make a point. US is 24th from the top in terms of least corrupt out of the 180 countries mentioned so there are 156 countries more corrupt than the US. I agree there is room for improvement. Thailand, however, falls below some pretty shaddy countries so 80 not too good when you consider all of the poorly advanced and economically deprived countries below Thailand. You stated West (using US examples) is more corrupt than Thailand.

Not obsessing about Thailand. Just annoyed by people condonning corruption, dishonesty, bribery, and theft as acceptable behaviours.

BTW, nice use of midsdirection or change of subject when confronted with your own "white lies." Being a slipperly guy is not very honorable status in my book.

Edited September 10, 2012 by ttelise

[catweazle]

As usual, a lot of ignorance, bigotry, hypocrisy, and off-topic sarcasm trying to deal with this topic

If there is any perfect country, where residents, government, officials, rules and regulations, laws, environment, infra structure, health and social care, etc. are total bliss, please tell me - I'll buy the ticket tomorrow!

As the title says - vitamin C is the name of the game in LoS - deal with it!

[spidermike007]

Why should I worry about corruption?

I shop at Tesco, so don't deal with dual pricing issues

I have all of my car and motorbike tax and insurance completed by a trustyworthy agent so as to avoid the transport office all together

I rent so as to safe guard my capital and to avoid the land office

I have a long term partner (who is devine) but she understands I will never marry

I never go to bars and have absolutely no intention of my girl owning one

I abide by Thai law

I do not work in Thailand and live off the income generated by my offshore investments

I am here to enjoy my quiet little life with my beautiful girl, eat great food, and waste my life away in, and on, the Andaman sea

I didn't give a moments thought to the corrupt self interested grubs in politics and policing back in Australia. Why would I give any thought to their brethren here in Thailand?

Endeavouring to reconcile epistemology, with the nebulous metaphysics that comprise morality, is a fool's quest.

Tell me again why I should concern myself with corruption in Thailand?

Good attitude. Yes, the corruption affects some of us more than others. But, you are very smart not to own property here. And as long as you know what you are doing, you can avoid the nonsense, to some extent. Sounds like you have a good woman, and are living the good life. Kudos to you, and continued good fortune.

[wooly]

As much as I've experienced and unhappy with the corruption problem in Thailand, it becomes a normal way of life when more than 2/3 of people don't take it as a problem. Pathetic, though.

And the scary part, is that on so many levels, it feels as if Thailand is going backwards. I wish I could say the future looked bright for this lovely country, but I simply cannot see it. Here are just a few of the reasons I feel this way:

1. Declining educational standards, especially when compared to other countries in the region, who take education seriously.

2. Lack of a fight against corruption. Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, and even to a smaller extent India, and the Philippines are at least waging a battle. Here, the anti corruption chief was just relieved of his job, as he was too effective, and was getting to close to the centers of power!

3. The competence of the government. Since the system here is entirely based on cronyism, and not meritocracy, there is little chance of getting people to do jobs they are good at. It is that simple. Incompetence is the order of the day. Always has been. Always will be, if the system does not change.

4. Flooding issues. They are only going to get worse with global warming, and the rising of the sea, and is Thailand prepared for it? They have refused help from the Dutch govt. (very talented and skilled engineers, with decades of experience), the US Corp. of Engineers, and others. Is the govt. really serious about tackling this issue? Do they have what it takes? Are they willing to reach out, or will they use only homegrown talent, which is substandard?

5. Shrinking economy. Thailand was #21 in the world just 5 years ago. They are now #25. This trend will continue. There is little being done to reverse it.

6. Traffic issues. Thailand has some of the most lax driving laws in the world. No helmets required in Samui, and 10 year old kids are permitted to drive motorbikes. Speed limits are rarely enforced, and anyone with some cash can buy their way out of any traffic related problem or accident, even if it caused death. Samui averages 60 traffic related deaths per month! Highest in the world, per capita. Not something you see in the media much. Nobody wants to discuss it.

7. That brings us to issue #7. Law enforcement. The police in Thailand are basically a revenue collection agency. Very, very little law enforcement. The quality of the detective work, and the forensic work is on par with Sub Saharan Africa, from what I have been told by well informed sources in law enforcement, outside of Thailand. For the #25 economy in the world, this is shameful, and the result of tremendous sloth, indifference, corruption, and ineptitude. Regardless, it remains one of the truly great blights, in this otherwise delightful country.

8. Local mores, ethics, and attitudes. Though the Thai people have many wonderful qualities, that many of us appreciate, their attitudes toward business, and tourism are hard to fathom. They nearly always, will choose to do the wrong thing, when it comes to customer service, or maintaining a relationship, if it means a few extra baht today. No ability to see the forest beyond the trees. Very, very little of the vision thing. It is a tremendous detriment to doing business here, and in the long run damages the tourism industry to a fabulous extent.

9. Tourism. For the above stated reasons, there is a real PR problem, when it comes to Thai tourism. The governments, both central, and local seem to be either unwilling, or unable to tackle the issues with taxis, tuk-tuks, jet skis, and other scams here, and it is resulting in huge damage to the industry. They are making up for it to some extent by attracting the Russian, Chinese, and Korean markets, but these are not the high rollers that Thailand need to thrive in the long run.

10. Saving face. Perhaps Thailand's single most destructive quality. It forces people to bury problems under the carpet. How can you resolve an issue, if it causes you embarrassment? Who cares. Suck it up, man up, and deal with it. Not here. Not now. Rarely ever. Avoid the issue, whatever you do, do not discuss it, and pretend it will go away. It is a society of 13 year old boys, in men's bodies, who behave like 13 year old boys, and have the emotional development of 13 year old boys. I am sure there are some exceptions. Maybe 11% of the society? LOL.

This has to be one the best posts I have ever read on Thai Visa - absolutely spot-on. But sadly I don't see much hope of Thailand changing anytime soon.

[TechnikaIII]

and meanwhile so called civilised places like the US, UK, UAE, U&ME carry on corruption free

If I were to make such a comment, with which I agree by the way, someone would immediately say I was off-topic or "America bashing" .. or some such nonsense.

[seajae]

have not been here for a real long time(4 to 5 months) but my wife manages a local office and she is the one responsible for making the local payments so the company can operate. I know how much she delivers monthly or anytime an expansion is needed, I also know how high up it goes to the elected thai govt officials and their family members. It is a joke, money is expected by everyone for anything you need to be done, a friend of hers had to pay to have her daughters name changed to her own after the father run out on her while she was preganant and she divorced him, seems he already had several wives he didnt tell her about but he still demanded a couple of hundred thousand baht to agree to the name change even though he has never taken any responsibility for his daughter or ever seen her. I love it here but the corruption is just way over the top.

Dennis

[lizardtongue]

The sad thing is that if these figures are a true representation of the Thai population, it must follow that they see honesty, kindness and empathy as weaknesses?

To echo a previous post, they deserve all they get!