I'm interested in this topic, as there seems to be wide variation among gay men. I'd like to ask our straight viewers please NOT to vote on this topic, because you will skew the results to the feminine side (for obvious reasons).

How to vote:

For the first question, go down the list from masculine to feminine. When you finally reach a type that you would simply not consider sexually appealing to you, choose the next more masculine type above that and vote.

For the second question, do the opposite: Go up the list until you find something just too over-the-top macho, then choose the next more feminine type below that and vote.

Please remember these questions are about your LIMITS, *not* your FAVOURITES!!!

I know I'm mixing up sexuality and body type a bit here, but I think both of these are involved in gender and the makeup of masculinity and femininity- or if you seriously disagree with my categories, that can be another topic of discussion here. I think that in the middle zone, gender is based more on personality; at the extremes, on body type as well.

I hoping that the results will provoke interesting discussion, though hopefully not the "ONLY my type is best" sort of discussion.

Personally speaking, I think I'm fairly flexible. With regard to femininity, I have dated pretty soft guys before; however, obvious makeup, cross-dressing, or physical alterations (boobs or sex-changes) are too far out there for me.

I've also dated pretty butch guys before, and don't object to a reasonable amount of muscle- but competition-style bodybuilding is just too much.

What about you guys?

"Steven"

I wonder what sort of value any poll on a forum can provide.

I think it might be valuable to say which country you are in when voting. Guys that I would crawl over broken glass to contact in the UK, I ignore when in Thailand as my variety and quality of choice soars.

I'm looking for your limits, here, so please don't consider availability/quality an issue. Assuming that you have equal choice of ALL of these variations, please choose the end points that you could be happy with!

"Steven"

Hey, Stephen, nice poll! I didn't know you could do a double poll.

Being sexually active in Thailand, with the almost infinite variety of body types and lifestyles among the gay and bisexual men here, has helped me realize my finer preferences.

To me, Thai men who over-emphasize their musculature by body-building are much the same as their counterparts in the West - too obsessed with muscles, with being overly macho, as if they're working hard to deny their gayness. But that's my reaction; maybe they mean something else.

You could have added height to the mix, but that would over-complicate it. In the USA classified ads, gay men like to advertise that they have "a swimmer's body." Lately I've been attracted to tall dancers: not an ounce of fat, and not overly muscular, but definitely fit and trim. And yes, there are a number of Thai men now in the range above 5 foot 9 (above 175 cm).

I like strong and silent, but I prefer soft and sweet. Again, maybe it's just the dancers, but men's makeup is far more common than I'd realized.

i dont like crab man

I wonder what sort of value any poll on a forum can provide.

Well, if this poll were intended to be scientific there would be all kinds of problems with the way I wrote it, not to mention the lack of control on the Internet. It's just for entertainment and curiousity- a straw poll, as it were.

"Steven"

hi ijwt. tres interesting poll! though i must admit that the musculature of a person has nothing to do with how butch/femme he is. why? cos i know many guys with bodies like greek gods who are more nellie than trannies! we happen to call them macho marys.*chortle*

one of my sistas in new york has an AMAZINGLY buffed body, yet, he enjoys doing drag when he goes out at night. he even has a trunkful of fabulous clothes, all chiffon, velvet and faux fur. look under his bed and u will spy another trunkful of wigs! had a swell time putting on those large stiletto heeled thigh-high boots. they were fabulous (yes. i have this thing for SHOES.*hangs head in shame*). yet, when u see him during the day, u never would have guessed that he is gay.

then there are guys who look and act butch if you dont know them. but the moment they are in private company, all hel_l breaks loose. there's this other guy i know, goes to the gym 7 times a week, has "permanent" stubbles on his face, walks around with a perpetual scowl. speaks in gruff tones. VERY butch. that is, until he meets up with his "girlfriends"...then the FLAPPING begins.

then there are guys who are definitely NOT straight-acting but they definitely are not effeminate or femme.guys who are just comfortably GAY. i cant quite put my finger on this...but i think many of my friends (including myself) fall into this category...

Edited January 27, 200620 yr by boybrat

Yeah, BB, I know what you mean- but without making a spreadsheet out of this poll, I didn't see how to include that extra dimension. That's definitely one of its problems- but I hope most people will get the "gist" of it and try to vote according to their tastes anyway!

"Steven"

okay , i voted

actaully i want both Sports Player- Masculine / Boy Next Door- Straight-Acting each poll,

men's makeup is far more common than I'd realized.

Yep.. The bf before this one used to put baby powder on his face (presumably to "whiten" his skin a bit, but also to give him a smoother appearance.)

When we were in Boots one day, I suggested that he look for some regular foundation make-up that would do the same job and stay on longer.. He was so shocked at my suggestion.. "Is only for girls!!" he said vehemently.

Ok. Whatever.

ChrisP

Great thread IJWT you are an inspiration to many

I certainly hope not!

Well let's just say you serve as a warning to others steve

My first Thai b/f always wore make-up as described by chrisp. Now he isn't a sissy guy just soft. The first day I met him I saw him put it on and I was incredibly turned on by it. Actually it was one of the reasons I wanted to date him. Unfortunately this was one of the reasons that lead to our breakup. He used to take 2 hours ++ to do his face, hair and get dressed. I on the other hand was always ready in 20 mins from shower to out the door. Very frustrating to be around this type of guy. My current b/f is the shy soft type. However my 2 b/f ‘s in the UK were gym body/butch with a distinct hint of fem and a boy next door type and flamboyant when he wanted to be. Basically a mixed bunch really. I personally would date anyone in the range of gym body to slightly soft, quiet and shy. Now if you were talking sex, probably any of them!

I'm not one for polls. Actually I cannot see the point of the this one. The topic - What Is The Gender Range You Are Willing To Date? would have sufficed.

Edited January 28, 200620 yr by DUMPSTER

Ok.. here is Champ, the current bf, when I met him.. (note the make-up!)

I have to say, it does help...

ChrisP

I must say chrisp this is the sort of guy I would personally avoid at all cost, that is, the fashion victim/moneyboy look.

Now I don't know if he is or was or anything about him but, just going by his appearance, I would smell danger and avoid this type of guy.

Again what I would consider danger, another might be fine with. I guess you are attracted to whoever pushes your buttons. Each to their own!

If ChrisP didn't already have that boyfriend, and we were cruising together, I suspect we'd be competing for the same boys. I like that look, although it's the look of choice for a lot of moneyboys.

One of the dancers spent the night and day with me. His complexion was less spectacular after he showered, but still very cute. He put on the makeup again before he left for work. It must have taken 20 minutes, but then he looked super-gorgeous again. Especially with all the cosmetics, he looks femme, but in bed he's totally versatile. You can't tell by looking.

Facial makeup can cover all the blemishes, smooth out or highlight the contours, and change the color. I can't blame 'em for wearing it. That's not my style, but I wasn't raised to use makeup, and never have.

I like the double poll because it tests both our upper and lower imits, helping us realize that for me at least, I'm not stuck on a single narrow type, but can be comfortable with a range of personal styles.

XP..the pic you posted tells me more about you than it does about the subject of the pic....interessante

dukkha

Then there's that handsome-to-ugly dimension,too....sigh. IJWT, we assign you to work out that 12-dimension spreadsheet you alluded to.

Edited January 28, 200620 yr by toptuan

now i am wondering...what exactly is "makeup"?

when my complexion is less that spectacular (ie, the odd blemish or two) i will dab on a TEENSY BIT of concealer. Is concealer "make-up"? i know foundation is. and what about lip balm and bronzing powders?

JPG (Jean Paul Gaultier) launched a line of "aesthetic enhancers" (OK, OK, MAKEUP) for MEN not too long ago, The line consist of 3 shades of lipbalm (from neutral to slightly tinted. i use the neutral one. it glides on like butter, tastes like vanilla and come in a fabulous black tube with the words "tout beau" on it. FAAAULOUSSSSS!!!i swear by it.), bronzing powder in a great shade of terracotta (great for them pool parties!), a kohl liner (for drawing stubbles, eyebrows, beauty spots, etc ), lipgloss and other stuff. so i guess yes. there is actually makeup for men! and there IS a market for makeup for men! i for one do not wish to aqcuire the whole range. just the lip balm would suffice thanks! (and perhaps the bronzer). and hard candy, a line of nailpolish also has a line called CANDYMAN...

i read esquire once (or was it GQ or was it cosmo?) and found that hollywood men swear by GUERLAIN's terracotta face power for men. and these men include sean connery, bruce willis and their ilk. makes u wonder. perhaps makeup for men is not such a big deal as long as it remains SUBTLE.

i've got to add that foundation is a boy's WORST enemy. in the productions that i was in, i got my face slathered in foundation before going onstage. despite the fact i cleaned my face well, it broke out. nasty stuff that, foundation. ugh ugh ugh.

Edited January 29, 200620 yr by boybrat

Maybe we need a separate thread for makeup? I'll try it.

There was an amusing little thing on one of our sister forums the other day which I'll steal and paraphrase here:

When gay men in Thailand talk about their partners, there is an amazing way in which the noun "boyfriend" declines grammatically:

My boyfriend is a dancer.

Your boyfriend is a gogoboy.

His boyfriend is a prostitute.

However, I must say (having met him and seen him at his work even recently),

ChrisP's boyfriend IS a dancer (and a talented one, though he should expand beyond Whitney- and if anyone wants to say that he might be dodgy, being in show business, well, then, so is Chris! ).

My ex-boyfriend was never a dancer.

Most gogoboys are not boyfriends.

Ta!

"Steven"

Edited January 30, 200620 yr by PeaceBlondie

Ok.. regarding the Poll, we *obviously* have to ignore the Sex Change entries.. especially in the How masculine is your limit question.

ChrisP

I personally do not refer to my partner as a 'boyfriend', he is far from being a boy chronologically..I also find the terms 'dating' and 'cute' odious in their usage by gay men..I guess they are so evocative of an american high school culture of proms, home coming queens, cheer leaders, frat parties etc....can anyone provide me with an intelligent definition of 'cute'...I thought it was for dogs and babies...it seems that gay men who have had their 40th birthday or more talking of dating and boyfriends just grates a little, but so many men so many opinions, mai pen rai na krub..

We are getting a kind of nice bell curve in the masculine poll, and though the resolution is kind of low I'm tempted to see two peaks in the feminine poll- one most likely is from the kind of guys who only date the really macho types, and the other one from the guys with a range further out into the feminine.

Yeah, Chris, I think we have to ignore that "sex change" spike...

Dhukka, I can see your point. The vocabulary problem has been with us a long time, though... I suppose an older girlfriend could be called a "lady friend," but does it sound quite right to say "gentleman friend?" "Significant other" is so cumbersome... and in a pair, which is the "husband?" "Lover" signifies more information than you perhaps would want to impart so directly, and "my date" sounds even worse than "my boyfriend."

Some guys who date the more feminine guys just use the normal female vocabulary, but I just can't bring myself to it.

"Steven"

I've deleted or edited remarks about who is a 'cake.' As an American, I don't know what the British mean by the term, and it's not mentioned in a good, modern, British dictionary.

Funny coincidence. In a graduate seminary textbook on Biblical hermeneutics, to give an example of a non-literal passage that's an analogy, the example was, "Ephraim is a cake." Biblically, Ephraim was either a child of Jacob, or his descendants, not a birthday cake.

Okay, y'all, now go have your cakes and eat them too.

A CAKE IS A CAKE IS A CAKE...THANKS Ms STEIN........And that aint from any theological book either...!

(deleted my own remarks about 'cake')...

Back to subject. We might jokingly refer to a queenie type as 'she,' and he might call himself 'she' when he wishes....I used to have a friend named Jim Sheehy; but he was a he. Heehee.

Edited January 31, 200620 yr by PeaceBlondie

"cake" was also the dessert item du jour that should be fed to the commoners, as prescribed by the late marie antoinette. that suggestion plus the delicious l'affaire du collier cost poor marie her head in the revolution.

her ALLERGED words were "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche." cake, brioche, same difference.

however, did she really utter those words? funnily enough, nobody knows for sure.

BB: wasn't there also something about how she was really referring to the kind of white bread which was the only thing she would've eaten- so that the real exchange would have been more like:

Court Person: "The peasants do not have enough hard tack to eat!"

Marie: "Well, why don't they just get a baguette?"

But I'm no expert on French history, so I don't know.

Looking at the current poll, I definitely see the two spikes I mentioned before....

Perhaps I will try to set up some multidimensional survey, but I'd be buggered how to distribute it or receive it back- can you do attachments in PMs or in regular messages? What kinds of angle would be appropriate? The ones I can think of are:

Body type (maybe along two or three scales)

Body language and mannerism

Vocal expression and mannerism

Use of makeup (this would be hard, though- you can use makeup to look good as a masculine man, too)

Body modifications and hormone supplements

Hmmmm.... it gets complicated as I think of it. Any more ideas on a more "thorough" survey?

"Steven"