Thai Face

[dog412]

reading this forum helps convince me how little is understood of ASIAN thought. maybe we from the so -called west, are much better off than we want to know.

[LaoPo]

reading this forum helps convince me how little is understood of ASIAN thought. maybe we from the so -called west, are much better off than we want to know.

True; losing face is a bad thing in Asia; all Asian people try to avoid losing face at all times.

LaoPo

[dog412]

yes, i understand face in asia. however, i believe it's out of date, and is being used as an excuse to justify anything and everything by those that can.

[sierra01]

I don't think it's out of date, it's part of the Asian way of life, part of their culture. Sometimes I find it very difficult to understand

Our great leader told the world that the new airport would open on a certain date last year (I forget when that date was), and subsequently, amid great fanfare and even greater expense, he was on the first flight into the new airport on the date he had promised. The world and his dog knew the airport was far from finished, and even farther from actually being open for business. In his mind he saved face, how? To me he just made himself look an even bigger idiot than he has already proved himself to be.

One day a Thai friend and I were out looking for a certain address, we had a simple but straight forward map to help us. I knew we were in the wrong road, we should have been in the next road up. I tried to tell my friend this but she wasn't having any of it, up and down this road we went, 3 times. Finally she accepted my suggestion to ask someone.....the address was in the next road.

My very first g/f in LOS absolutely refused to listen to me, it caused many problems, and was one of the main reasons why we parted. She just wouldn't, or couldn't, accept that just one in a while I might have been right about something. If I told her the sun was shining she would have gone outside to check. I've come across this many times in Thailand, admit you're wrong and you lose face, the fact that by accepting you were wrong you gain face goes way over their heads

[LaoPo]

yes, i understand face in asia. however, i believe it's out of date, and is being used as an excuse to justify anything and everything by those that can.

Sorry, but it shows that you don't completely understand the deeper meaning of 'losing face'. For Asian people it's a most important issue. Careers and family relations can be destroyed overnight...

It's not such a simple issue which can be explained in a few words.

I'm sure that there are a LOT of fellow-TV members who have quite a bit of experience with 'losing face' issues and examples...!

LaoPo

[PeaceBlondie]

As the only foreign teacher on a big staff in the foreign language department, I'd get a Thai teacher of English to come up and ask me a grammar question, or two of them would ask me to settle a mild disagreement about some fine point of grammar. Actually, they were testing me, not so much for my knowledge of the language, but to test my social skills. It soon dawned on me that face-saving was far more important than some fine point of grammar (an issue on which Thai teachers can be very pedantic). I learned to reply, "Oh, those are both good answers and it's a good question" when the opposite was true.

Thais who have dealt with enough frank, candid foreigners finally start to shy away from asking our opinion, or taking it. We're brutally honest, as if truth were more important than personal reputation. That's why they hate to solve problems, or admit there is a problem.

I think the Thais are correct, to a large extent, that there's no sense even discussing a problem that can't be solved, or if the problem-discussing would cause a Thai to lose face. We imagine 'problems' that don't exist, and waste time discussing problems that are unsolvable.

[sbk]

Excellent post Peaceblondie. It is true, my husband has often said, "why get upset over something you cannot solve?" and he's right.

AA has something similar: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference".

It seems to me that Thais and Westerners both often seem to lack the wisdom to know the difference. Westerners trying to change things that cannot be changed and Thais not changing things that can be changed.

Whats that got to do with face? Well, failure is a loss of face.

[gurkle]

reading this forum helps convince me how little is understood of ASIAN thought. maybe we from the so -called west, are much better off than we want to know.

I always think it's funny how farang love to sensationalize Asian cultural differences as being exotic, especially as Asians represent the majority of the world population.

"Losing face" simply means "being embarrassed" in English. Yes, it is that simple.

The difference is that Asians aren't afraid to admit that they hate to be embarrassed, while farang take pride about how thick-skinned they try to be.

This leads to the outcome that Asians end up being embarrassed less often, which sounds pretty good to me.

Farang, on the other hang, often end up holding in their pent-up anger until they explode. This can lead to dramatic consequences, such as the mass murders you always hear about in America. It’s so commonplace in America that they even have a term for it – “going postal” - when the victims go to their workplace or schools and kill everyone randomly.

I also think it's funny how Westerners love to complain about Thailand and discuss the farang's cultural superiority, but will do practically anything possible to stay here. But I can understand that, I love complaining too - it's a lot more fun than saying how great everything is

[chuchok]

reading this forum helps convince me how little is understood of ASIAN thought. maybe we from the so -called west, are much better off than we want to know.

I always think it's funny how farang love to sensationalize Asian cultural differences as being exotic, especially as Asians represent the majority of the world population.

"Losing face" simply means "being embarrassed" in English. Yes, it is that simple.

The difference is that Asians aren't afraid to admit that they hate to be embarrassed, while farang take pride about how thick-skinned they try to be.

This leads to the outcome that Asians end up being embarrassed less often, which sounds pretty good to me.

Farang, on the other hang, often end up holding in their pent-up anger until they explode. This can lead to dramatic consequences, such as the mass murders you always hear about in America. It’s so commonplace in America that they even have a term for it – “going postal” - when the victims go to their workplace or schools and kill everyone randomly.

I also think it's funny how Westerners love to complain about Thailand and discuss the farang's cultural superiority, but will do practically anything possible to stay here. But I can understand that, I love complaining too - it's a lot more fun than saying how great everything is

Face in Asia is not just about embarrasment.Status is huge in say "giving somebody face" in a business meeting.Em

As for pent up anger, I would say that it's a lot more prevalent in Thailand than any other western society...

[BKK90210]

Thai people are very very sensitive in nature due to their culture. They always think way too much and too deep into everything! They also embarassed easily and are very shy in general. Thai culture is very sheltered because the house is usually run by the elders with old traditional values who silently had taught them since young that whatever you do...please do not embarass us also...otherwise people will think that we (the elders) did not raised you right? This is why they(the younger generation) second guess themself a lots. They always worry about losing face therefore also family face.

Remember in Thailand the elders viewed themself as the wisest of all...and have the answer to everything! You're told since young to be obdient and do not try to bring shame to the familily name....losing face. As well as you all know the thais do not move around often, they normally stay put in one neighbourhood for many generations, therefore everybody knew everybody else and in Thailand the gossips spread faster than the internet!

[ZZZ]

From many years in Asia I have found that you don’t loose face by doing something bad, stupid, embarrassing or illegal. You loose face when someone points out that what you have done is wrong.

It doesn’t matter that everyone already knows it’s wrong it’s when it’s out in the open face is lost. Also, to make someone loose face is worse than loosing face and can have serious consequences.

This is why some people can get away with anything as no one dares or want’s to make them loose face.

This face thing is one of the biggest problem for Asia as progress can not be made unless mistakes and bad decisions are pointed out and corrected.

[Patex]

In my experience,

this Face- thing in Thailand is on the decrease.

I can observe Thais joking about themselfes/others "Naa Daeg" ("broken face"= loosing face) more often than they will complain about it or even start acting stupid.

Uneducated or educated but stupid people still have their problems... but then I can't see the difference to the west.

...As the only foreign teacher on a big staff in the foreign language department, I'd get a Thai teacher of English to come up and ask me a grammar question, or two of them would ask me to settle a mild disagreement about some fine point of grammar. Actually, they were testing me, not so much for my knowledge of the language, but to test my social skills. It soon dawned on me that face-saving was far more important than some fine point of grammar (an issue on which Thai teachers can be very pedantic). I learned to reply, "Oh, those are both good answers and it's a good question" when the opposite was true...

I don't think they were testing you, it is more that they expected a truthful answer from the honest-known Farang.

Your Thaistyle behaviour would be right in front of an audience, not in a one to one/two situation.

They really wanted/accepted you as a teacher/arbitrator . Please, take a little better care of your face, this will also affect the farangface in general .

Patex

[dog412]

i appreciate all the replies on this subject,they all have their merit's. i just hope the scientific and medical professionals worldwide do not adopt that particular aspect of "culture".

[Godders]

As the only foreign teacher on a big staff in the foreign language department, I'd get a Thai teacher of English to come up and ask me a grammar question, or two of them would ask me to settle a mild disagreement about some fine point of grammar. Actually, they were testing me, not so much for my knowledge of the language, but to test my social skills. It soon dawned on me that face-saving was far more important than some fine point of grammar (an issue on which Thai teachers can be very pedantic). I learned to reply, "Oh, those are both good answers and it's a good question" when the opposite was true.

Thais who have dealt with enough frank, candid foreigners finally start to shy away from asking our opinion, or taking it. We're brutally honest, as if truth were more important than personal reputation. That's why they hate to solve problems, or admit there is a problem.

I think the Thais are correct, to a large extent, that there's no sense even discussing a problem that can't be solved, or if the problem-discussing would cause a Thai to lose face. We imagine 'problems' that don't exist, and waste time discussing problems that are unsolvable.

Stop excusing Thais for refusing to lose face. Of course, you wouldn't dream of telling the wife what you truly think of her hideous new hat or letting the Jehova Witness on your doorstep know where you would like him to stick his Watchtower. But this face saving epidemic needs to be tackled with the same urgency as Asian bird flu if Thailand is to compete successfully with the rest of the world (something I am sure the current CEO would like).

Its potentially inhibiting effects on the education of the nation's children you have already hinted at with the illuminating vignette about the two Thai teachers. Shift the focus to politics and commerce and you have a recipe for nepotism, corruption and inefficiency.

Recently, a Thai trashed his pickup outside the showroom of a car sales company which refused to acknowledge they had sold him a pup. Maybe the penny is dropping at last.

[chuchok]

As the only foreign teacher on a big staff in the foreign language department, I'd get a Thai teacher of English to come up and ask me a grammar question, or two of them would ask me to settle a mild disagreement about some fine point of grammar. Actually, they were testing me, not so much for my knowledge of the language, but to test my social skills. It soon dawned on me that face-saving was far more important than some fine point of grammar (an issue on which Thai teachers can be very pedantic). I learned to reply, "Oh, those are both good answers and it's a good question" when the opposite was true.

Thais who have dealt with enough frank, candid foreigners finally start to shy away from asking our opinion, or taking it. We're brutally honest, as if truth were more important than personal reputation. That's why they hate to solve problems, or admit there is a problem.

I think the Thais are correct, to a large extent, that there's no sense even discussing a problem that can't be solved, or if the problem-discussing would cause a Thai to lose face. We imagine 'problems' that don't exist, and waste time discussing problems that are unsolvable.

Stop excusing Thais for refusing to lose face. Of course, you wouldn't dream of telling the wife what you truly think of her hideous new hat or letting the Jehova Witness on your doorstep know where you would like him to stick his Watchtower. But this face saving epidemic needs to be tackled with the same urgency as Asian bird flu if Thailand is to compete successfully with the rest of the world (something I am sure the current CEO would like).

Its potentially inhibiting effects on the education of the nation's children you have already hinted at with the illuminating vignette about the two Thai teachers. Shift the focus to politics and commerce and you have a recipe for nepotism, corruption and inefficiency.

Recently, a Thai trashed his pickup outside the showroom of a car sales company which refused to acknowledge they had sold him a pup. Maybe the penny is dropping at last.

Have you much experience in Asia?

[LaoPo]

Stop excusing Thais for refusing to lose face. ......... But this face saving epidemic needs to be tackled with the same urgency as Asian bird flu if Thailand is to compete successfully with the rest of the world (something I am sure the current CEO would like).

Anothern Westerner judging the Far East and its culture....the Far East where more than half of the world population lives. You are talking about Thailand here, but the 'losing face'-isue is all over Asia, like for instance China, with 1.3 Billion people with a culture which has a few thousand years of their own culture and 'losing face' experience.

Who are we to judge?

Instead we, at least, should try to understand more of the culture in other countries.

Saying the things you said shows YOU have no idea!

LaoPo

[leftcross]

the 'face' thing is great most of the time, if you can play by the rules.

it means you wont be put in an awkward position and people generally act in a more polite manner.

it can be frustrating when you ask somebody in a shop about something and they just reply 'yes' but then that usually means you should find a better way to try and find out the information.

[dog412]

apology for double post of laopo. however, who are we to judge? well, if we don't who will? we make judgements continually,at every step of the way,hopefully. my initial thought's on this thread was, as master's of stategic thinking,particularly the chinese,who would benefit from this particular"cultural trait" the most. it is becoming obvious to me. must be nice at the top.

[opothai]

face is very admiral in the right circumstances, but i have seen some thai people blatently lie to save face, and when questioned they will not change thier stance and then it all gets terribly embarrasing for all concerned.

a mistake or missunderstanding should be taken with grace, and people learn from thier mistakes

this is the only thing about face i will never understand.

[LaoPo]

like for instance China, with 1.3 Billion people with a culture which has a few thousand years of their own culture and 'losing face' experience.

Yes, yes. We're all aware of how 'superior' Chinese culture is.

The same culture that gave the world foot-binding, female infanticide, forced abortions and the Great Leap Forward.

Thai-Chinese girls are very cute though, I'll give you that.

Yes, indeed, and some other countries gave other cultures Wars, like Japan, Germany.....but that's off-topic I think, same as your comments....'Losing (Thai) Face' is the topic.

LaoPo

Edited January 30, 2006 by LaoPo

[wamberal]

Talking about "Asian Values" as though the place and the people think and feel uniformly is just intellectual laziness.

To start with, which countries make up "Asia"? India? Is "face" an issue there? Indonesia? Is "face" an issue there?

I suggest that it is far more worthwhile to talk about our own personal experiences in the countries in which we have lived and, preferably, worked for lengthy periods of time. Surely we can learn from each others' experiences, not from each others' prejudices.

From my personal observation, there are significant differences in behaviour between people in, say, Thailand and Hong Kong.

The most difficult obstacle to achievement in Thailand (in a management sense) is that the more senior person is always right, and cannot be challenged in any way, shape or form by somebody younger.

[Neeranam]

AA has something similar: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference".

It doesn't actually belong to AA. it existed way before.

If you want it in Thai -

"kor sing suk sid hai kwam sangop gae ka".

"hai yom rap sing tee bplian mai dai"

"hai gla bplian sing tee bplian dai"

"lae panya tee ja yaek yae"

ขอสิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ์ ให้ความสงบแก่ข้า

ให้ยอมรับสิ่งที่เปลี่ยนไม่ได้

ให้กล้าเปลี่ยนสิ่งที่เปลี่ยนได้

และปัญญาที่จะแยกแยะ

[rcalsop]

I commenting on loosing face generally in Asia a subtlety I have noticed particularly in China and Korea is that if you were found doing something wrong you lost more face not for what you did wrong ,but for being stupid or incompetant enough to get caught ,ie you were not able to save your face . The actual deed or thing you did wrong would be the primary judgement in the west followed by being caught .

Any body else a similar observation

[Oye at Home]

I commenting on loosing face generally in Asia a subtlety I have noticed particularly in China and Korea is that if you were found doing something wrong you lost more face not for what you did wrong ,but for being stupid or incompetant enough to get caught ,ie you were not able to save your face . The actual deed or thing you did wrong would be the primary judgement in the west followed by being caught .

Any body else a similar observation

Yes, I have to say the case of Korean biomedical scientist Hwang Woo-Suk would seem to be an example of what you've noted.

From what I've witnessed, desiring respect from others is a basic human motivator. Asians call this motivator "face." What constitutes a loss of respect (or face), may differ, depending on the person's culture or upbringing. But definitely, all humans--yes, westerners included--desire respect.

[bkkmei]

I find people in China to be amazingly confrontational - they argue at a drop of a hat and fist fights in the middle of the road are very common e.g. taxi may accidentally veer too close to a cyclist - result: fistfight.

And I believe that this is very much related to 'loss of face' - i.e. neither side wants to be seen as losing out to the other.

Funny how different the forms of loss of face can be?

[steveromagnino]

From my personal observation, there are significant differences in behaviour between people in, say, Thailand and Hong Kong.

The most difficult obstacle to achievement in Thailand (in a management sense) is that the more senior person is always right, and cannot be challenged in any way, shape or form by somebody younger.

Indeed there are massive differences (thankfully) between the people in Hong Kong and here; I would no more expect the French and Germans and Americans to think the same as I would Thai, Vietnamese and Koreans, yet the idea that 'all Asians look, think, behave alike' is pretty common with many non-Asians. Ironically, on the flip side, my mother swears that 'white people are look alike and behave this way and blah blah blah' - the exact reverse!

Stereotypes are alive and well ;-)

Senior people can be swayed; this issue of face is one that if you understand how Thai face works; then face can be given to persuade someone to change their mind. There are so many ways of handling conflict and negotiation; yet the common way that expats have to handle here is a 'let's lay it on the table, all the facts, blah blah blah'. It often forces the issue that someone will end up losing face by having to defend their actions, and inevitabibly they do. If you understand what face is, you understand how to deal with a problem so people don't loose face, and in doing so, you often win the respect of the parties whose face has been preserved. Not everything needs to be said for everyone to know what is going on.

Negotiation is just a game and you are either a good negotiator or at the mercy of a good negotiator. In handling matters of face, often how the situation is handled speaks volumes about the respect you have for the other party; the desire to lay 'all the cards on the table' is often a pointless shortterm win for no long term gain.

In research like Hofstede, Thais came up very highly on the collectivism point; they consider the group and harmony in the group to be very important. Thus conflict avoidance is very important; same as in Japan. Too much avoidance is not a good thing when if issues never get resolved, but promoting conflict as something 'good' and important is not the only solution either.

[Uma~~]

A friend of mines dog barked at two Thai guys walking down the road and made one of them jump which in his mind made him lose face.

About thirty minutes later a pickup rolled to a halt outside the house, the window came down and the dog was shot in the neck, in front of my friend and her two daughters Bom (7) and Nong (5).

A commotion ensued and the police showed up, but this didn't stop the man shouting and swearing and promising he would return later to kill the other dog which had also barked.

The first dog died the next day and she had to give her other dog to a new home.

That's an example of Thai face for you.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

A friend of mines dog barked at two Thai guys walking down the road and made one of them jump which in his mind made him lose face.

About thirty minutes later a pickup rolled to a halt outside the house, the window came down and the dog was shot in the neck, in front of my friend and her two daughters Bom (7) and Nong (5).

A commotion ensued and the police showed up, but this didn't stop the man shouting and swearing and promising he would return later to kill the other dog which had also barked.

The first dog died the next day and she had to give her other dog to a new home.

That's an example of Thai face for you.

That sound's more like an example of psychopathic tendancies than Thai face. I mean, if every Thai that jumped when they a dog barked at them then there wouldn't be any dogs in LOS.

[thedude]

being asian, and having lived and worked with white people for much of my life, i have concluded that white people are generally well meaning, but they are egotists and they let their opinions define themselves rather more than their actions. furthermore, they are pre-occupied with how their own opinions and lifestyles should be enforced on others. while asians understand that their position and obligations in life is defined in complex ways relative to the larger construct of their society and family, and behave accordingly in ways to fit in (including face-giving), white people are usually very one-dimensional and inflexible. the individualistic nature of white societies usually mean that kids are expected to be cast into the world when they are in the late teens, with parents not taking any responsibility thereafter. the culture of individual ego and the primacy of opinion in free white societies encourage superficial relationships in a me-first environment, so much so that often white people get estranged from their familial ties as they mature, and old white folks are forgotten and left to rot in institutions, looked after by the state, paid for by high welfare taxes that, in an ironical twist, force citizens to run away or otherwise get increasingly demoralised and left questioning the meaning of life.

so there, how's that for brushing you white people with a large brush of generalisation and half-truths?

Edited January 31, 2006 by thedude

[FlyingDutchman]

A friend of mines dog barked at two Thai guys walking down the road and made one of them jump which in his mind made him lose face.

About thirty minutes later a pickup rolled to a halt outside the house, the window came down and the dog was shot in the neck, in front of my friend and her two daughters Bom (7) and Nong (5).

A commotion ensued and the police showed up, but this didn't stop the man shouting and swearing and promising he would return later to kill the other dog which had also barked.

The first dog died the next day and she had to give her other dog to a new home.

That's an example of Thai face for you.

... these actions (killing someones dog) can cost you your life, here in Holland ! What a stupid reaction of this Thai ! Bl**din' *ssh*le, I'd say. I guess he is mentally ill ... I think the explanation of 'elders and youngsters' is quite correct; but does that mean, théy are correct ? Living in a [retard] remote village, it might be useful, but not when you live in 'the West' (Tourist and Business oriëntated area's). This face has to change some ... and it will happen, just wait a while .

being asian, and having lived and worked with white people for much of my life, i have concluded that white people are generally well meaning, but they are egotists and they let their opinions define themselves rather more than their actions. furthermore, they are pre-occupied with how their own opinions and lifestyles should be enforced on others. while asians understand that their position and obligations in life is defined in complex ways relative to the larger construct of their society and family, and behave accordingly in ways to fit in (including face-giving), white people are usually very one-dimensional and inflexible. the individualistic nature of white societies usually mean that kids are expected to be cast into the world when they are in the late teens, with parents not taking any responsibility thereafter. the culture of individual ego and the primacy of opinion in free white societies encourage superficial relationships in a me-first environment, so much so that often white people get estranged from their familial ties as they mature, and old white folks are forgotten and left to rot in institutions, looked after by the state, paid for by high welfare taxes that, in an ironical twist, force citizens to run away or otherwise get increasingly demoralised and left questioning the meaning of life.

so there, how's that for brushing you white people with a large brush of generalisation and half-truths?

Looks like the average American to me ...

Doesn't count for the Benelux = Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemborg .

Edited January 31, 2006 by FlyingDutchman