Mekong River Dam Will Kill Us, Protesters Tell Yingluck

[DeepInTheForest]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here, here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internationalrivers.org/blogs/267/testing-the-waters-laos-pushes-xayaburi-dam-to-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

[dcutman]

At the moment this dam is in the preparatory stages, and proceeding full steam. VN and Cambodia have both submitted their objections to this dam, and Thailand has quietly (understatement) done as well. Thailand/ Yingluck and her administration, has the most power to stop construction, they merely need to cancel the contract to buy 95% of the electricity this dam will produce, and demand that all studies be completed before that contract be reinstated. But that will never happen as there is to much money involved, and to many palms have been greased.

By the time this gets through the courts, it will be built and in full operation. It will be to late, and the systematic building of the other dams and the destruction of the Mekong will continue.

It will take a decade or so to before the damage really becomes apparent, and the people that have depended on this river for centuries will move on, to be productive slaves in some other industries.

[lovelaos]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here,here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internati...-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringprogress.org/download/Reports/2012/April/Final-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

[zakk9]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here,here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internati...-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringp...l-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

The report you link to shreds the Poyry Report completely, particularly the "build now adapt later" policy recommended by Poyry. This is arrogant to say the least, considering the fact that Laos and Thailand are building while those who mainly have to adapt are poor fishermen and farmers in Vietnam and Cambodia.

[RubbaJohnny]

Lies,dam lies and statistics

Very good argument for an ASEAN co-operation

Of course unlike the riparian environment flows into banks can increase deposits

[dude007]

Never before a Shinawatra has ever listened to the poor people of the north and the northeast. The SHINAWATRA populist ideas are one-directed and they are meant to be heard and be followed by the people. That is the Shinawatra's policy and it was never different....

You started to vote for this family, face now the consequences. Many people knew already right from the start that the Shinawatras are a real Amata family, not the yellow shirts. You forgot already for wat big brother was sentenced as a convicted criminal. There is more for which he has to be brought before the court. Don't expect that the youngest offspring from the Shinawatras, the actual flood management expert, will be different. RED SHIRTS OPEN YOUR EYES... before it is too late! Your vote seems already to be forgotten!

Edited September 19, 2012 by dude007

[dude007]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here,here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internati...-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringp...l-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

The report you link to shreds the Poyry Report completely, particularly the "build now adapt later" policy recommended by Poyry. This is arrogant to say the least, considering the fact that Laos and Thailand are building while those who mainly have to adapt are poor fishermen and farmers in Vietnam and Cambodia.

Let me tell you that this was the idea right from the start... the people has to adapt!

[dude007]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here,here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internati...-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringp...l-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

and in the meantime they silently continue the controversial construction, pretending that these are preliminary works....

[dude007]

dcutman, on 2012-09-18 09:55:01, said:

But ministers in Laos say studies have already been done, and consultants they hired said there were no major negative impacts for the river.

Gee Really? The consultants hired by the Lao Government said everything will be hunky dory. I would imagine an independent consulting Firm might have a different opinion. Actually I believe many experts have already chimed in and believe it could possibly be a eco disaster, as most dams are that block natural migration routs. Example: California and Oregon. massive decline in salmon populations, after dams were built. Many if not all of those have these fish ladders integrated in these projects.

The consultants hired for this project were independent foreign experts.

http://www.mrcmekong...tation-process/

writing with the pen that are paying them... You are a real simple mind!!!

Edited September 19, 2012 by dude007

[lovelaos]

dcutman, on 2012-09-18 09:55:01, said:

But ministers in Laos say studies have already been done, and consultants they hired said there were no major negative impacts for the river.

Gee Really? The consultants hired by the Lao Government said everything will be hunky dory. I would imagine an independent consulting Firm might have a different opinion. Actually I believe many experts have already chimed in and believe it could possibly be a eco disaster, as most dams are that block natural migration routs. Example: California and Oregon. massive decline in salmon populations, after dams were built. Many if not all of those have these fish ladders integrated in these projects.

The consultants hired for this project were independent foreign experts.

http://www.mrcmekong...tation-process/

writing with the pen that are paying them... You are a real simple mind!!!

come again...

[lovelaos]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here,here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internati...-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringp...l-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

The report you link to shreds the Poyry Report completely, particularly the "build now adapt later" policy recommended by Poyry. This is arrogant to say the least, considering the fact that Laos and Thailand are building while those who mainly have to adapt are poor fishermen and farmers in Vietnam and Cambodia.

Let me tell you that this was the idea right from the start... the people has to adapt!

It's a cruel world

[lovelaos]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. Pöyry assured the delegates that the project would have minimal impacts, based on the findings of its August report. Yet Pöyry’s report drew widespread criticism last year throughout the region when it advised Laos that dam construction should continue, despite identifying over 40 additional studies that are still needed to understand the project’s impacts. (For examples of problems with the report, see here,here and our own analysis). The Cambodian government declared in November 2011 that “Cambodia would not agree with this report—we strongly disagree with it.” The Vietnamese government lodged similar complaints.

http://www.internati...-critical-point

If readers believe that this is a transparent process, well, good luck to them. The Mekong, we may remember, supplies 2 million tons of fish in a good year. It is the largest freshwater fishery on our planet. To dam it would almost certainly expose millions to a precarious existence, which may be a selling point to those who propose it: impoverished, displaced villagers make fine factory fodder, and can lead to increased profits for those who run this increasingly stupid globalized fiefdom.

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringp...l-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

and in the meantime they silently continue the controversial construction, pretending that these are preliminary works....

They are preliminary works, have you seen the site? Not really done silently either.

[lounger]

But ministers in Laos say studies have already been done, and consultants they hired said there were no major negative impacts for the river.

Gee Really? The consultants hired by the Lao Government said everything will be hunky dory. I would imagine an independent consulting Firm might have a different opinion. Actually I believe many experts have already chimed in and believe it could possibly be a eco disaster, as most dams are that block natural migration routs. Example: California and Oregon. massive decline in salmon populations, after dams were built. Many if not all of those have these fish ladders integrated in these projects.

The consultants hired for this project were independent foreign experts.

http://www.mrcmekong...tation-process/

Are you sure the greasy pole doesn't extend to foreign experts. Its like saying the FDA supervises the licencing of drugs and works for the benefit of the consumer. Haha.

Governments bring pressure to bear on all consultants. Say an American consulting group wants a contract in USA and the trade off is what?,yep a green light on a project in laos for which another US Company is tendering..... where does big business start and end.

Now, say introduce Green peace or another whacky independant group which enjoys being contraversial and we will have a balanced view...............

been there, I have the T-shirt.

[anotheruser]

Sainyabuli is the only Laotian province that is west of the Mekong River how convenient! The toponym; Mother of Rivers says it all...

FYI Sayaburi is not the only Lao province west of Mekong, Pakse is too. Future dams there too ????

You are quite right that there are plans for dams in Champasak province. As far as all this fuss goes, the dams are being built to supply power to Thailand. The dams are being built by Thai contractors. The moral compass is upon Thailand to decrease consumption. After all it is Thailand that builds and finances these projects and wants nuclear power in Ubon.

These dams are being built to power the AC, fans and televisions of every poster here that posts from Thailand. If you don't like oil don't drive a car and if you live in Thailand and oppose these dams please turn your lights off.

I don't like it either but it is Thailand that is supporting these projects. You could tell the Lao government why you oppose these things but it would fall on deaf ears. They need the money. Please contact the Thai government and the contractors that are responsible.

I see power lines in Laos that don't even connect local people, because it is all exported to other countries.

[DeepInTheForest]

Sainyabuli is the only Laotian province that is west of the Mekong River how convenient! The toponym; Mother of Rivers says it all...

FYI Sayaburi is not the only Lao province west of Mekong, Pakse is too. Future dams there too ????

You are quite right that there are plans for dams in Champasak province. As far as all this fuss goes, the dams are being built to supply power to Thailand. The dams are being built by Thai contractors. The moral compass is upon Thailand to decrease consumption. After all it is Thailand that builds and finances these projects and wants nuclear power in Ubon.

These dams are being built to power the AC, fans and televisions of every poster here that posts from Thailand. If you don't like oil don't drive a car and if you live in Thailand and oppose these dams please turn your lights off.

I don't like it either but it is Thailand that is supporting these projects. You could tell the Lao government why you oppose these things but it would fall on deaf ears. They need the money. Please contact the Thai government and the contractors that are responsible.

I see power lines in Laos that don't even connect local people, because it is all exported to other countries.

You are spot on in pointing out that Thailand is driving these projects. You are also correct in asking us to contact the Thai government and contractors with our input. Could we do that, readers?

But don't kid yourself for a minute that this dam is somehow necessary because posters are using their lights or computers or AC. That notion is a canard, oft-repeated in the pages of this forum. (For one thing, industry and commerce are major areas where electricity is not used efficiently.)

No matter who's using it, I'm all in favor of using less electricity, believe me, but in this case, the major driver of events is overstated demand from EGAT, the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand. Simply put, they don't need the power. So why are Thai companies continuing to invest in these projects?

The perverse state of affairs is summed up in an article by one Calvin Godfrey in the Vietnamese website Thanh Nien News:

The Xayaburi is expected to take eight years to build, once it is approved.

Once complete, it would dump about a quarter of that power into Thailand's already bloated grid [other sources put this figure at over 90%. --DitF] . Greacen has charged that the Thai Load Forecast Subcommittee, the body responsible for predicting Thailand's power needs, has consistently overestimated demand, leading to investment plans that call for too many power plants.

In 2009, Thailand's peak load (the maximum instantaneous demand for electricity that ever occurred in the year) topped out at 22,045 megawatts.

But Thailand's contracted capacity in the same year was 29,212 MW – a reserve margin of almost 28 percent. The excess capacity can be attributed to large, conventional power plants which were built prematurely. The cost of that excess is passed on to consumers in their electric bills, Greacen says.

Part of the problem, Greacen says, is Thailand's utility incentive structure.

The Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand's economic incentives are based on a "cost-plus" model in which the more the utility spends, the more profits it makes. This leads to over-investment in power plants and other infrastructure.

"It's not surprising then that utilities are not particularly interested in energy conservation even though there are is a lot of evidence that energy efficiency and conservation is cheaper than building new power plants and fuelling them for the next 30 years," he said.

You can read more here:

http://www.thanhnien...0310153316.aspx

So to summarize, not only is electrical consumption overestimated, but no effort has been put into decreasing demand by making use of more efficient engines, turbines, and lighting. This is of course the direction that most of the industrialized world is taking, and has proven to be effective, along with "peak load leveling"-- where people are encouraged to use electricity at non-peak hours, often with variable pricing.

Edited September 19, 2012 by DeepInTheForest

[cowslip]

Even on an efficient national grid about 50% of the power available is lost, the further from the source of consumption the greater the loss. this begs the question of how efficient this power source could ever be or will they simply allow large industries to develop all along the river?

[lovelaos]

Sainyabuli is the only Laotian province that is west of the Mekong River how convenient! The toponym; Mother of Rivers says it all...

FYI Sayaburi is not the only Lao province west of Mekong, Pakse is too. Future dams there too ????

You are quite right that there are plans for dams in Champasak province. As far as all this fuss goes, the dams are being built to supply power to Thailand. The dams are being built by Thai contractors. The moral compass is upon Thailand to decrease consumption. After all it is Thailand that builds and finances these projects and wants nuclear power in Ubon.

These dams are being built to power the AC, fans and televisions of every poster here that posts from Thailand. If you don't like oil don't drive a car and if you live in Thailand and oppose these dams please turn your lights off.

I don't like it either but it is Thailand that is supporting these projects. You could tell the Lao government why you oppose these things but it would fall on deaf ears. They need the money. Please contact the Thai government and the contractors that are responsible.

I see power lines in Laos that don't even connect local people, because it is all exported to other countries.

'I see power lines in Laos that don't even connect local people, because it is all exported to other countries.'

On an average Laotian project EDL (Lao Electric) use around 20%. The remaining 80% is indeed exported to other countries (mainly Thailand) Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

[zakk9]

Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

Do you have any documentation on that?

[dcutman]

Sainyabuli is the only Laotian province that is west of the Mekong River how convenient! The toponym; Mother of Rivers says it all...

FYI Sayaburi is not the only Lao province west of Mekong, Pakse is too. Future dams there too ????

You are quite right that there are plans for dams in Champasak province. As far as all this fuss goes, the dams are being built to supply power to Thailand. The dams are being built by Thai contractors. The moral compass is upon Thailand to decrease consumption. After all it is Thailand that builds and finances these projects and wants nuclear power in Ubon.

These dams are being built to power the AC, fans and televisions of every poster here that posts from Thailand. If you don't like oil don't drive a car and if you live in Thailand and oppose these dams please turn your lights off.

I don't like it either but it is Thailand that is supporting these projects. You could tell the Lao government why you oppose these things but it would fall on deaf ears. They need the money. Please contact the Thai government and the contractors that are responsible.

I see power lines in Laos that don't even connect local people, because it is all exported to other countries.

'I see power lines in Laos that don't even connect local people, because it is all exported to other countries.'

On an average Laotian project EDL (Lao Electric) use around 20%. The remaining 80% is indeed exported to other countries (mainly Thailand) Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

I dont believe that to be correct. Cambodia plans are to be generating their own power.

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Cambodia_plans_to_open_nine_hydropower_dams_by_2019_999.html

Edited September 20, 2012 by dcutman

[lovelaos]

Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

Do you have any documentation on that?

"Minister Soulivong Daravong also said that Laos will sell power generated from the dam to Cambodia in addition to Thailand"

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/laos/dam-09132012202320.html

[dcutman]

Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

Do you have any documentation on that?

"Minister Soulivong Daravong also said that Laos will sell power generated from the dam to Cambodia in addition to Thailand"

http://www.rfa.org/e...2012202320.html

Is it possible Soulivong was just talking out of his ass? The rest of the article totally contradicts his statement.

[lovelaos]

Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

Do you have any documentation on that?

"Minister Soulivong Daravong also said that Laos will sell power generated from the dam to Cambodia in addition to Thailand"

http://www.rfa.org/e...2012202320.html

Is it possible Soulivong was just talking out of his ass? The rest of the article totally contradicts his statement.

A politician talking out of his ass? I would never entertain the idea!!

[zakk9]

Interesting to note that if (when) the Xayaburi dam goes ahead, a significant percentage of the power will be exported to Cambodia.

Do you have any documentation on that?

"Minister Soulivong Daravong also said that Laos will sell power generated from the dam to Cambodia in addition to Thailand"

http://www.rfa.org/e...2012202320.html

I don't doubt for a second that Laos would like to sell electricity from the dam to Cambodia, possibly for a low price, to sugar the pill and dampen the protests, but it says nothing at all in that article about Cambodia actually wanting to buy.

[cup-O-coffee]

The people viewed in that picture do not instill confidence that they are the kind of individuals who would be able to sit down and have a practical discussion on the benefits and ramifications of a dam installation. I think they are cannon fodder, no more significant than the Muslim protestors the other day.

What will be is already concluded. No amount of suggestions to have governing bodies oversee the rights to do these things will solve anything. People can be bought, and they are; from the intelligent" looking individuals in the photo all the way up to the individuals at the top, who give the "Okay" to do or not do.

Corrupt people are realists and opportunists, and they have no time for idealists and dreamers, and only tolerate them as long as they do not interfere with the workings of corruption.

Translation: Human life is now seen by the elite as a resource, to be utilized accordingly, or to be disposed of as seen fit. The production rate and future estimates of this resource is becoming bloated; hence human issues are not a concern anymore for corrupt people, and more of a nuisance; hence life is only sacred to the possessor of life, and all else is a resource for personal sustainability.

I think the individuals in that photo are going to be sorely disappointed, and the PM already knows that.

Edited September 20, 2012 by cup-O-coffee

[cdnski12]

As far as I am aware there is a huge amount of sediment that comes down the Mekong, I wonder how the turbines would cope with large amounts of possibly coarse granules passing through in wet season, and how long till the inflow of sediment into the dam reduces it's water holding capacity?

Check with the Egyptian Hydraulic Engineers on silting b/h the Aswan Dam. Egypt also lost a $100 Million USD pa Sardine Fishery, when the Dam was built in the 1960's.

The 3 Gorges Dam in China will almost immediately loose some of it's efficiency, due to silting b/h the Dam(s). I don't think the Dam Engineers really thought this one thru, but they must have been aware of the Aswan Dam's silting problems.

I live on the Columbia River in Canada. Prior to construction of the existing 48 Dams on the total Columbia River System, the water was full of silt. Now it is near pristine clear. The silt all drops out in the Reservoirs upstream. Nice water, but not a lot of aquatic life in the river.

[DeepInTheForest]

As far as I am aware there is a huge amount of sediment that comes down the Mekong, I wonder how the turbines would cope with large amounts of possibly coarse granules passing through in wet season, and how long till the inflow of sediment into the dam reduces it's water holding capacity?

Check with the Egyptian Hydraulic Engineers on silting b/h the Aswan Dam. Egypt also lost a $100 Million USD pa Sardine Fishery, when the Dam was built in the 1960's.

The 3 Gorges Dam in China will almost immediately loose some of it's efficiency, due to silting b/h the Dam(s). I don't think the Dam Engineers really thought this one thru, but they must have been aware of the Aswan Dam's silting problems.

I live on the Columbia River in Canada. Prior to construction of the existing 48 Dams on the total Columbia River System, the water was full of silt. Now it is near pristine clear. The silt all drops out in the Reservoirs upstream. Nice water, but not a lot of aquatic life in the river.

An April 2011 article on the Xayaburi dam published in the New York Times references a Mekong River Commission report:

But perhaps most striking is the commission’s estimate that the dam’s ability to produce electricity will be severely compromised within a few decades because the dam’s reservoir will fill up with silt. (The plan calls for a generating capacity of 1,285 megawatts, enough to power a small or medium-size city; most of the electricity will be sold to Thailand under an agreement already signed between the dam’s builder and a Thai utility company.)

“It is expected that under proposed operating conditions, the reservoir would effectively lose about 60 percent of its capacity due to sedimentation after 30 years,” the commission’s report says.

Thus, critics say, the dam will have permanent consequences for life in the river, including possible extinction of larger species, but may only produce several decades of electricity.

The Laotian government has responded to questions and criticisms about the dam with a stout defense of the project. The dam, which is situated between steep hills and will span a distance of about eight football fields, will have the same impact as a “natural waterfall,” the government said in response to the report by the Mekong River Commission.

http://www.nytimes.c...ekong.html?_r=2

Edited September 20, 2012 by DeepInTheForest

[DeepInTheForest]

More on the woeful path taken by the Laotian government with regards to Xayaburi:

Laos sought “expert” advice from a blacklisted company

The delegation heard presentations from the Pöyry Group, a World Bank-blacklisted company that wrote a report for the Lao government in August 2011 on the Xayaburi Dam’s impacts and is now acting as one of the project’s lead engineers. ...

Oh come on DeepInTheForest, It was not a 'woeful path' taken by the Laotian Government. They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company. The Laotian government then ordered a peer review of the compliance report made by Poyry.

http://www.poweringp...l-report-V1.pdf

Yes, I'm aware that this report doesn't tackle fish migration issues and other environmental issues but it concentrates on the Dam design which will affect sediment flow etc.

I really don't what to reply-- I am nearly at a loss for words-- but I am apparently too stupid to give up the argument.

So here is how I perceive things:

I don't find the "independent study" trope credible.

"They commissioned an independent report from an internationally recognized company." No, they did not. As pointed out above, Poyry, the firm now blacklisted by the World Bank for corrupt practices, is now serving as one of the project's lead engineers. That doesn't sound very independent to me, does it to you?

Further, the second consultant, French firm “Compagnie Nationale du Rhône” (CNR), was also hired by the Laos government. That makes them hardly independent, either. In fact, the frontispiece of their report says "This study has been conducted at the request and under the supervision of the Ministry of Energy and Mines... and its Energy Policy and Planning Department (EPP, former DOE) of LAO PDR."

The French firm backed up the original report in several areas, then issued a disclaimer when the Lao government cited them as having affirmed the results of their supposed "environmental impact" study. As you aptly pointed out, referencing CNR's press release which the International Rivers website kindly provided us, their review said nothing about fish or biology, only hydrology, sediment, and navigation. They also said that more studies regarding sedimentation issues were needed. Those apparently have not been done.

The French report contained howlers such as the following:

2. Concept of time life of the reservoir must be forgotten, the Xayaburi reservoir can have an endless life, being a genuine sustainable development

All right then, we can forget about any siltation problems! This sort of thing-- it sounds like whitewashing-- makes me very uneasy. I think it should make readers here uneasy, too.

Lastly, lest we forget-- the environmental impact study side of things has not been done, at least not in an independent fashion.

Would you be happy if a project could have a huge impact on the food supply of your home nation was constructed without an environmental impact study? Especially if the entire history of your nation was tied to it...

Edited September 20, 2012 by DeepInTheForest

[cowslip]

In general the populations of Laos and Thailand, in fact most S.E. Asian countries have little or no education when it comes to environmental issues, this makes it all the more easy for governments to ride rough-shod over any objections and continue with these sort of projects without any real opposition.

What opposition there is tends to come from "outsiders" with little real bite.

i'm particularly disturbed to see that the Thai government seems to have thrown normal procedure to the wind with other dam projects too - notably the Mae Wong Dam which also has about 25 years of research that is disregarded or ignored by the current government.

BTW - ignorance of environmental issues is by no means the preserve of S.E. Asian populace as can be seen by many posts of similar topics by contributors to this and other forums.

Edited September 23, 2012 by cowslip

[lizardtongue]

Laos proposed building the dam on the Mekong at Thahouy district in Xayaburi province, to generate more than 1,000 MW of power to sell to Thailand. Thai construction firm Ch Karnchang is building the dam - the first on the mainstream of the river below China.

Does anyone really think that the CEO of the Thai construction firm has not already paid the necessary 'tea money'?

However it is refreshing to see Thai conservationists taking a stand albeit a futile exercise, maybe one day their voices will be heard and acknowledged by the people in power.

[DeepInTheForest]

In general the populations of Laos and Thailand, in fact most S.E. Asian countries have little or no education when it comes to environmental issues, this makes it all the more easy for governments to ride rough-shod over any objections and continue with these sort of projects without any real opposition.

What opposition there is tends to come from "outsiders" with little real bite.

i'm particularly disturbed to see that the Thai government seems to have thrown normal procedure to the wind with other dam projects too - notably the Mae Wong Dam which also has about 25 years of research that is disregarded or ignored by the current government.

BTW - ignorance of environmental issues is by no means the preserve of S.E. Asian populace as can be seen by many posts of similar topics by contributors to this and other forums.

I think you make many good points here. You are on point when you say that environmental education is needed. It is worth remembering, though, that many locals have put their lives on the line over environmental issues. This is in large part because they know how important the issue is to their lives, and the lives of their communities.

Many have paid the ultimate price. Although governments may continue to ignore the wholesale devastation of land and water by our global system, local people are often well aware of what is going on. In that sense, they are the ones who can educate us.

A gunman riding pillion on a motorcycle shot 47-year-old Thongnak nine times in front of his house in Samut Sakhon province’s Muang district at about 10 a.m. on July 28, witnesses told Human Rights Watch. Thongnak was hit with 9mm bullets in his left shoulder, abdomen, chest, and back, and died shortly after he arrived at a hospital.

“The government does little to recognize the contributions of environmentalists and human rights activists, then does even less after they are mowed down,” said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/07/30/thailand-investigate-murder-environmentalist

The director of a well-known Cambodian environmental organization seeking to highlight government negligence and corruption over illegal logging was gunned down by military police on April 26. Chut Wutty, director of the Natural Resource Protection Group, was shot and killed in a car after he refused to hand over his camera’s memory card to the policeman.

http://thailand-business-news.com/environment/37903-murder-of-cambodian-environmental-acitivist-raises-questions#.UGCW0K6-2So

According to Global Witness, more than seven hundred environmentalists have been murdered in the past ten years. These killings have occurred in 34 countries.

Most of the murder victims were indigenous people — or environmental activists working on their behalf — who were trying to protect their land from loggers, mining companies, developers and poachers. Three quarters of these murders took place in Peru, Brazil and Colombia. Another fifty killings took place in the Philippines; twenty in Thailand.

http://whohijackedourcountry.blogspot.com/2012/06/hundreds-of-environmental-activists.html