Question About Consulate Income Cert Letter

[mesquite]

I went in at 6AM to win position number 30 on today's list.

Got to the desk of the above-mentioned lady at 11AM. I hadn't dealt with her before.

I had the papers in order, and she began shuffling them around. Finally, she took my passport to the office copier and came back telling me next time I should try to have all the copies. She pointed out there was an office out back that specialized in such. I suggested she speak to them about it, as I'd had all the copies done there only three hours earlier.

She did a lot of stamping and shuffling. Then she looked at my address one last time. She asked if I owned or rented my condo. I said I rented. She then requested some proof, which is understandable, but not something I've been asked before. Fortunately, I did have copies of everything even remotely related to my life in Thailand, and I gave her a copy of my lease. She wasn't unfriendly or obstructive, but she wasn't at all like the people I've dealt with before. My sense of her is that the less one says, the better.

My income statement from the consulate was three weeks old. Nothing was said about that. It's always been my understanding that the document is considered legitimate for 30 days, and I've used it each time. No one has ever asked me any questions about my income or its source.

So you had all the copies and she told you "next time" bring all the copies. Par for the course.

[Mrjustice]

I was told by Thai immigration the letter had to be withing two weeks of my visit to extend . Didnt matter I had bank statements pension letters they want the affidavit as well as the other documents . Personally its a waste of $50.00 but oh well I ll get it again and pay just to be done with it .

In Chiang Mai have never shown anything except the letter from US consulate, I do come prepared with credit union statements just in case they are asked for. I never ask at immigration what they want as who are you asking some trainee into his first week who just doesn't know.

On my last visit to renew my extention although I had the affidavit , I was asked to provide proof of pension from my pension office . The officer was not a trainee, she reached over to a stack of applications and pulled another pension letter and showed me what she wanted so I was not being singled out . The pevious year I did not need the proof just the affidavit and it was also a different immigration officer . It may it depends on which immigration officer you end up with .

The same thing happened to me.

And, to Me!

UPDATED: CHIANG MAI IMMIGRATION -- INCOME AFFIDAVIT ALONE NO LONGER SATISFACTORY!

Just went yesterday to Chiang Mai Immigration to convert Visa Exempt to Non-Imm. O Retirement.

They would NOT accept the US Consulate Income Affidavit Form, without backup documentation

corroborating the monthly income -- i.e. They wanted Letter from Govt. certifying Pension money (or presumably similarly from

private Company Pension). Note: I even had brought with me ATM Slips showing cash withdrawals from just the past few days of

75,000 THB (more than the monthly required min. income), along with our apartment Lease Agreement, copies of Citigold ATM Cards, etc.

In response, they showed me 'examples' of Letter certified by Canada Consulate (in lieu of Affidavit form) -- note US Consulate

will NOT verify your income per their published policy (I explained this to the Thai Imm. Officers that US Consulate will not do this, and they

would not budge). Further, they expressly wanted it to be "PENSION" income only -- not investment/interest/savings income.

In my case, as a (retired) self-employed Attorney, impossible to provide such documentation. Meaning, only Money-in-Thai-Bank

method will not be satisfactory for persons in similar circumstances.

Interestingly (or, more accurately, contrarily), they also handed me a half-page printed Instruction form, with the usual financial requirements stating the alternatives for showing the 65000 THB monthly income and/or the 800K in the Thai Bank. But, with respect to the Income method their own instruction sheet expressly states: "The applicant must be able to comply with any of hte 3 requirements: 1. Proof of INCOME OR Pension from the country of Origin in the amount of not less than Baht 65,000 per month certified by his/her Embassy or Consulte in Thailand." Note: It says nothing about corroborating documentation, nor does it limit the monthly income to only "Pension" money. So, it would seem that the form Affidavit supplied by and certified by your US Consulate fully complies with their own instructions!

Second, Chiang Mai Immigration will definately not allow you to get Extension of Stay at time you convert to Non-Imm. "O"; and must come

back in 60 days (during final month of "O"), as some past posts have said is possible. If it ever was, no longer!

Finally, for those 'flamers', who will immediately reply we must have done something wrong -- forget about it.

My wife and I were dressed in nice slacks and button down shirts, good shoes, spoke softly and nicely to the Imm. Officers

including the "Sawadee" greeting etc. No arguments or any problems from us (with initial Imm. Officer), until after the Sgt. Major called

us up later, to tell us they would not issue the Visa, for the reasons noted above.

[Mapguy]

MrJustice's post is interesting.

I can't comment on the instruction sheet he refers to --- I have never seen it nor recently looked at other sources regarding requirements, but the insistence on pension verification is something that I have heard higher (not just CM Officers) immigration officials speak about consistently, and I know that my original application for long-stay visa was based on that, too, back when I applied many moons ago out of country. (And they are enthusiastic about government pensions!) So, my question would be is there a difference in your case because you were converting from visa exempt to NI-O Long Stay( Retirement) in country.

Otherwise, when it comes to the bank deposit in Thailand, I have also been told consistently that fixed deposits are required.

The bottom line is that, the requirements are there to ensure that you have some reserves. I real can't imagine that expatriate investments of this sort in Thailand add up to very much in the overall national economic picture.

People differ as to whether or not these are reasonable requirements.

[anselpixel]

I think it is useful to remember that these "retirement extensions" are invitations to stay.

There are many considerations brought to bear in every Thai bureaucratic decision.

One's ability to pay the freight is important, of course, but that's not all that's being considered when we appear at the Immigration office. Neither I, nor any of my acquaintances, experienced any difficulties in presenting the US consulate income statements.

If there is a problem, I would suggest moving the proper amount of funds into a Thai bank, and spending 90 days' holiday in Malaysia.

[mcgriffith]

Just went yesterday to Chiang Mai Immigration to convert Visa Exempt to Non-Imm. O Retirement.

They would NOT accept the US Consulate Income Affidavit Form, without backup documentation

corroborating the monthly income -- i.e. They wanted Letter from Govt. certifying Pension money (or presumably similarly from

private Company Pension). Note: I even had brought with me ATM Slips showing cash withdrawals from just the past few days of

75,000 THB (more than the monthly required min. income), along with our apartment Lease Agreement, copies of Citigold ATM Cards, etc.

In response, they showed me 'examples' of Letter certified by Canada Consulate (in lieu of Affidavit form) -- note US Consulate

will NOT verify your income per their published policy (I explained this to the Thai Imm. Officers that US Consulate will not do this, and they

would not budge). Further, they expressly wanted it to be "PENSION" income only -- not investment/interest/savings income.

In my case, as a (retired) self-employed Attorney, impossible to provide such documentation. Meaning, only Money-in-Thai-Bank

method will not be satisfactory for persons in similar circumstances.

Interestingly (or, more accurately, contrarily), they also handed me a half-page printed Instruction form, with the usual financial requirements stating the alternatives for showing the 65000 THB monthly income and/or the 800K in the Thai Bank. But, with respect to the Income method their own instruction sheet expressly states: "The applicant must be able to comply with any of hte 3 requirements: 1. Proof of INCOME OR Pension from the country of Origin in the amount of not less than Baht 65,000 per month certified by his/her Embassy or Consulte in Thailand." Note: It says nothing about corroborating documentation, nor does it limit the monthly income to only "Pension" money. So, it would seem that the form Affidavit supplied by and certified by your US Consulate fully complies with their own instructions!

Second, Chiang Mai Immigration will definately not allow you to get Extension of Stay at time you convert to Non-Imm. "O"; and must come

back in 60 days (during final month of "O"), as some past posts have said is possible. If it ever was, no longer!

I believe the issue here is that you can't arrive on a visa exempt, and immediately jump to an extension to stay, based on retirement.

You need to have some kind of visa, a real visa (tourist, business, non-Imm category O/ 3 month, etc.) issued by an embassy or consulate of Thailand (obviously outside of Thailand).

A visa exempt is just that- a temporary stay issued to certain nationalities who can arrive with no prior permission.

It is not a visa, and thus can not be upgraded to an extension to stay, based on retirement.

You will need to either hire a very good Thai atty who (possibly) can sort this out, or more likely leave Thailand and go to Penang or Laos, etc., obtain a real visa (a simple 60 day tourist visa will suffice) and start all over.

Good Luck, and let us know how it turns out.

[Dante99]

And, to Me!

UPDATED: CHIANG MAI IMMIGRATION -- INCOME AFFIDAVIT ALONE NO LONGER SATISFACTORY!

Just went yesterday to Chiang Mai Immigration to convert Visa Exempt to Non-Imm. O Retirement.

They would NOT accept the US Consulate Income Affidavit Form, without backup documentation

corroborating the monthly income -- i.e. They wanted Letter from Govt. certifying Pension money (or presumably similarly from

private Company Pension). Note: I even had brought with me ATM Slips showing cash withdrawals from just the past few days of

75,000 THB (more than the monthly required min. income), along with our apartment Lease Agreement, copies of Citigold ATM Cards, etc.

In response, they showed me 'examples' of Letter certified by Canada Consulate (in lieu of Affidavit form) -- note US Consulate

will NOT verify your income per their published policy (I explained this to the Thai Imm. Officers that US Consulate will not do this, and they

would not budge). Further, they expressly wanted it to be "PENSION" income only -- not investment/interest/savings income.

In my case, as a (retired) self-employed Attorney, impossible to provide such documentation. Meaning, only Money-in-Thai-Bank

method will not be satisfactory for persons in similar circumstances.

Interestingly (or, more accurately, contrarily), they also handed me a half-page printed Instruction form, with the usual financial requirements stating the alternatives for showing the 65000 THB monthly income and/or the 800K in the Thai Bank. But, with respect to the Income method their own instruction sheet expressly states: "The applicant must be able to comply with any of hte 3 requirements: 1. Proof of INCOME OR Pension from the country of Origin in the amount of not less than Baht 65,000 per month certified by his/her Embassy or Consulte in Thailand." Note: It says nothing about corroborating documentation, nor does it limit the monthly income to only "Pension" money. So, it would seem that the form Affidavit supplied by and certified by your US Consulate fully complies with their own instructions!

Second, Chiang Mai Immigration will definately not allow you to get Extension of Stay at time you convert to Non-Imm. "O"; and must come

back in 60 days (during final month of "O"), as some past posts have said is possible. If it ever was, no longer!

Finally, for those 'flamers', who will immediately reply we must have done something wrong -- forget about it.

My wife and I were dressed in nice slacks and button down shirts, good shoes, spoke softly and nicely to the Imm. Officers

including the "Sawadee" greeting etc. No arguments or any problems from us (with initial Imm. Officer), until after the Sgt. Major called

us up later, to tell us they would not issue the Visa, for the reasons noted above.

Good luck, I hope next time you consider how your behavior will influence future relations with the Thai Immigration Police.

[NancyL]

Mr. Justice's situation is currently being discussed on the excellent Visa forum of TV -- and at the risk of repeating what I posted on that forum, he's basically trying to justify his financial requirements by using out-of-country bank and investment accounts rather than being able to demonstrate a fixed income stream that can not change, as with a pension. If he wants to use the bank account method to justify his visa, then he needs to move 800,000 baht into a Thai bank.

[mcgriffith]

Mr. Justice's situation is currently being discussed on the excellent Visa forum of TV -- and at the risk of repeating what I posted on that forum, he's basically trying to justify his financial requirements by using out-of-country bank and investment accounts rather than being able to demonstrate a fixed income stream that can not change, as with a pension. If he wants to use the bank account method to justify his visa, then he needs to move 800,000 baht into a Thai bank.

Yup.

He's applying the parameters for an application for a Non-Immigrant O-A, without the law enforcement check, etc. that is issued overseas, to an extension of stay based on retirement, which has different financial requirements.

Not having a Thai visa of some kind on his application date is only part of the reason he was refused.

[hml367]

I have found that more often than not, Immigration is correct and foreignors either do not understand or do not want to understand. Immigration in Thailand is a piece of cake compared to US Immigration in my experience.

MSPain

[Genericnic]

I have found that more often than not, Immigration is correct and foreignors either do not understand or do not want to understand. Immigration in Thailand is a piece of cake compared to US Immigration in my experience.

MSPain

+1

U.S. Immigration can make a donkey look smart.

David

[hellodolly]

I have found that more often than not, Immigration is correct and foreignors either do not understand or do not want to understand. Immigration in Thailand is a piece of cake compared to US Immigration in my experience.

MSPain

+1

U.S. Immigration can make a donkey look smart.

David

Well that is actually a understatement if I ever heard one.

Thai immigration is easy. They can ask every time for proof of income but as a rule do not. It is how ever wise to have it with you as they do spot checks. Unless you are willing to go through the whole system again why not play it safe. I offered it once and they said not needed the letter from the consulate was good enough. But as any one who has read this thread or other sources knows its better to be prepared as they may even ask for unrelated documents.

I for the life of me can not understand why people would go there with out proof of income if they have it. The chances of being asked for it are small but not worth the effort to avoid them.

Seems like less than a year ago they said they were going to start asking for them it is their rite but it would seem it is only a spot check

As for the lady in the front desk behind the 90 day I got her last time and she was friendly and we had no problems with her even though she did ask for copies of my previous renewals which my wife had. I do not believe they are required but it really was no problem for the wife to photo copy them.

I think to many people try to get by on the minimum even though they have the necessary papers. They would be the first to scream unfair if the officer they see was to stick to the rules and they would have to go home get them and come back and sit through the whole operation again.

On a side note a few years ago I got a fellow sitting by the door to the back room. After he completed his round of questioning I had to go into the back room. I watched him as he opened a file drawer and just threw my paper work on top of a pile of paper work that was almost to high to shut the drawer. If they all did that there would have to be a night shift to file the paper work.

[Mrjustice]

And, to Me!

UPDATED: CHIANG MAI IMMIGRATION -- INCOME AFFIDAVIT ALONE NO LONGER SATISFACTORY!

Just went yesterday to Chiang Mai Immigration to convert Visa Exempt to Non-Imm. O Retirement.

They would NOT accept the US Consulate Income Affidavit Form, without backup documentation

corroborating the monthly income -- i.e. They wanted Letter from Govt. certifying Pension money (or presumably similarly from

private Company Pension). Note: I even had brought with me ATM Slips showing cash withdrawals from just the past few days of

75,000 THB (more than the monthly required min. income), along with our apartment Lease Agreement, copies of Citigold ATM Cards, etc.

In response, they showed me 'examples' of Letter certified by Canada Consulate (in lieu of Affidavit form) -- note US Consulate

will NOT verify your income per their published policy (I explained this to the Thai Imm. Officers that US Consulate will not do this, and they

would not budge). Further, they expressly wanted it to be "PENSION" income only -- not investment/interest/savings income.

In my case, as a (retired) self-employed Attorney, impossible to provide such documentation. Meaning, only Money-in-Thai-Bank

method will not be satisfactory for persons in similar circumstances.

Interestingly (or, more accurately, contrarily), they also handed me a half-page printed Instruction form, with the usual financial requirements stating the alternatives for showing the 65000 THB monthly income and/or the 800K in the Thai Bank. But, with respect to the Income method their own instruction sheet expressly states: "The applicant must be able to comply with any of hte 3 requirements: 1. Proof of INCOME OR Pension from the country of Origin in the amount of not less than Baht 65,000 per month certified by his/her Embassy or Consulte in Thailand." Note: It says nothing about corroborating documentation, nor does it limit the monthly income to only "Pension" money. So, it would seem that the form Affidavit supplied by and certified by your US Consulate fully complies with their own instructions!

Second, Chiang Mai Immigration will definately not allow you to get Extension of Stay at time you convert to Non-Imm. "O"; and must come

back in 60 days (during final month of "O"), as some past posts have said is possible. If it ever was, no longer!

Finally, for those 'flamers', who will immediately reply we must have done something wrong -- forget about it.

My wife and I were dressed in nice slacks and button down shirts, good shoes, spoke softly and nicely to the Imm. Officers

including the "Sawadee" greeting etc. No arguments or any problems from us (with initial Imm. Officer), until after the Sgt. Major called

us up later, to tell us they would not issue the Visa, for the reasons noted above.

Good luck, I hope next time you consider how your behavior will influence future relations with the Thai Immigration Police.

Ah, my first anticipated "flamer", blaming "my behavior" -- when, I already ntoed it was exemplary. Well aware, not worth making waves --

i.e. complaining to HQ, because the Chiang Mai Immigration folks are in my opinion not complying with the letter of the law (law is "Income" --

not just "Pension" income as they insisted).

[Mrjustice]

Mr. Justice's situation is currently being discussed on the excellent Visa forum of TV -- and at the risk of repeating what I posted on that forum, he's basically trying to justify his financial requirements by using out-of-country bank and investment accounts rather than being able to demonstrate a fixed income stream that can not change, as with a pension. If he wants to use the bank account method to justify his visa, then he needs to move 800,000 baht into a Thai bank.

Not exactly -- my understanding from all the prior Research I did, especially the posts on this Forum, was that the Income Affdiavit from US Consulate, would be satisfactory without further explanation or documentation -- so, I shouldn't have had to discuss source of income. But, if they are now requiring further corroboration/documentation as to source/amount of Income, it changes the whole ballgame. And, yes, we now have no choice but to move the 800000THB/per person, into Thai Bank Accounts, which we are doing.

[hml367]

Mr. Justice's situation is currently being discussed on the excellent Visa forum of TV -- and at the risk of repeating what I posted on that forum, he's basically trying to justify his financial requirements by using out-of-country bank and investment accounts rather than being able to demonstrate a fixed income stream that can not change, as with a pension. If he wants to use the bank account method to justify his visa, then he needs to move 800,000 baht into a Thai bank.

Not exactly -- my understanding from all the prior Research I did, especially the posts on this Forum, was that the Income Affdiavit from US Consulate, would be satisfactory without further explanation or documentation -- so, I shouldn't have had to discuss source of income. But, if they are now requiring further corroboration/documentation as to source/amount of Income, it changes the whole ballgame. And, yes, we now have no choice but to move the 800000THB/per person, into Thai Bank Accounts, which we are doing.

You need to understand the difference between applying for a visa and extending your permission to stay.

MSPain

[Mario2008]

Not exactly -- my understanding from all the prior Research I did, especially the posts on this Forum, was that the Income Affdiavit from US Consulate, would be satisfactory without further explanation or documentation -- so, I shouldn't have had to discuss source of income. But, if they are now requiring further corroboration/documentation as to source/amount of Income, it changes the whole ballgame. And, yes, we now have no choice but to move the 800000THB/per person, into Thai Bank Accounts, which we are doing.

Sorry to say, but than you didn't do your homework well enough. Immigration is well aware that the US embassy doesn't require proof for the income letter. (Just as some other embassies also don't require any proof). Immirgation is well aware of this and ocassionally ask for extra proof about your income. The advise is to always take this extra proof with you, incase they ask for it.

Your case is nothing special.

[Mrjustice]

Just went yesterday to Chiang Mai Immigration to convert Visa Exempt to Non-Imm. O Retirement.

They would NOT accept the US Consulate Income Affidavit Form, without backup documentation

corroborating the monthly income -- i.e. They wanted Letter from Govt. certifying Pension money (or presumably similarly from

private Company Pension). Note: I even had brought with me ATM Slips showing cash withdrawals from just the past few days of

75,000 THB (more than the monthly required min. income), along with our apartment Lease Agreement, copies of Citigold ATM Cards, etc.

In response, they showed me 'examples' of Letter certified by Canada Consulate (in lieu of Affidavit form) -- note US Consulate

will NOT verify your income per their published policy (I explained this to the Thai Imm. Officers that US Consulate will not do this, and they

would not budge). Further, they expressly wanted it to be "PENSION" income only -- not investment/interest/savings income.

In my case, as a (retired) self-employed Attorney, impossible to provide such documentation. Meaning, only Money-in-Thai-Bank

method will not be satisfactory for persons in similar circumstances.

Interestingly (or, more accurately, contrarily), they also handed me a half-page printed Instruction form, with the usual financial requirements stating the alternatives for showing the 65000 THB monthly income and/or the 800K in the Thai Bank. But, with respect to the Income method their own instruction sheet expressly states: "The applicant must be able to comply with any of hte 3 requirements: 1. Proof of INCOME OR Pension from the country of Origin in the amount of not less than Baht 65,000 per month certified by his/her Embassy or Consulte in Thailand." Note: It says nothing about corroborating documentation, nor does it limit the monthly income to only "Pension" money. So, it would seem that the form Affidavit supplied by and certified by your US Consulate fully complies with their own instructions!

Second, Chiang Mai Immigration will definately not allow you to get Extension of Stay at time you convert to Non-Imm. "O"; and must come

back in 60 days (during final month of "O"), as some past posts have said is possible. If it ever was, no longer!

I believe the issue here is that you can't arrive on a visa exempt, and immediately jump to an extension to stay, based on retirement.

You need to have some kind of visa, a real visa (tourist, business, non-Imm category O/ 3 month, etc.) issued by an embassy or consulate of Thailand (obviously outside of Thailand).

A visa exempt is just that- a temporary stay issued to certain nationalities who can arrive with no prior permission.

It is not a visa, and thus can not be upgraded to an extension to stay, based on retirement.

You will need to either hire a very good Thai atty who (possibly) can sort this out, or more likely leave Thailand and go to Penang or Laos, etc., obtain a real visa (a simple 60 day tourist visa will suffice) and start all over.

Good Luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Reply to both Global Moderators:

Sorry, but neither of you are correct. I was properly/correctly applying to permissibly convert Visa Exempt to Non-Immig. "O" Visa, using the proper/correct Form TM 87 (versus TM 86 for converting from Tourist Visa to Non "O"). And, the requirements for obtaining are EXACTLY the same as for the subsequent 1-year Extension of Stay. The fact that I had also brought with me the Application to Extend Stay and hoped to do same day -- was based on this Forum's many past posters who have said sometimes this is possible. It was NOT the problem; and the initial Immig. Officer just said one-step at a time, and said to come back in 60 days to do that; and initially accepted our TM87 papers. It was only when the Sgt.Maj. called us up (and, she didn't even have or know about my intention of presenting the Ext. of Stay at same time, since those papers were given back to me by original lady), that we were told the Income Affdiavit alone would not be acceptable.

UPDATE: But, to further clarify what actually occurred, in fact I did 'appeal' thru the chain of command, all the way to the head Inspector, who actually DID finally approve our 90-day Non-Immig. "O" Visa. But, we were told in no uncertain terms that 'next time', when we come back in 60 days for the 1-year Extension of Stay, we will be required to show either the corroborating docs. OR the money-in-Bank (just as they were insisting we should have showed to get conversion from Visa Exempt to Non-"O". I note this now, to dispel the incorrect interpretations of what occurred; as a cautionary Warning to all future Retirees applying for either Non-O OR their 1-year Extensions! The problem was NOT because we applied (TM87) to convert from Visa-Exempt to Non "O" which is perfectly proper/permissble; NOR was the problem due to any 'confusion' between requirements for getting initial Non "O" and the Extension of Stay -- which again I emphasize is EXACTLY the same; nor due to any 'attitude' problem. The PROBLEM -- which is why I made the post to alert all future applicants for EITHER original Non-O OR for the 1-year Extension (or renewal of Extension) of Stay, is that apparently Chiang Mai Immigration policy has now changed, and no longer will the US Income Affidavit alone be accepted at face value, and anyone using the Income Method WILL be required to provide supporting documentation of PENSION Income -- and this will apply to both getting Non "O" conversion here or getting the 1-year Extension of Stay.

[hml367]

You can get a Non-Immigrant O for many purposes.

MSPain

[Mario2008]

The PROBLEM -- which is why I made the post to alert all future applicants for EITHER original Non-O OR for the 1-year Extension (or renewal of Extension) of Stay, is that apparently Chiang Mai Immigration policy has now changed, and no longer will the US Income Affidavit alone be accepted at face value, and anyone using the Income Method WILL be required to provide supporting documentation of PENSION Income -- and this will apply to both getting Non "O" conversion here or getting the 1-year Extension of Stay.

Again: Immigration is well aware that the US embassy doesn't require proof and ocassionally ask for extra proof about your income. The advise is to always take this extra proof with you, incase they ask for it. There is nothing new or special about your case.

[Mrjustice]

Not exactly -- my understanding from all the prior Research I did, especially the posts on this Forum, was that the Income Affdiavit from US Consulate, would be satisfactory without further explanation or documentation -- so, I shouldn't have had to discuss source of income. But, if they are now requiring further corroboration/documentation as to source/amount of Income, it changes the whole ballgame. And, yes, we now have no choice but to move the 800000THB/per person, into Thai Bank Accounts, which we are doing.

Sorry to say, but than you didn't do your homework well enough. Immigration is well aware that the US embassy doesn't require proof for the income letter. (Just as some other embassies also don't require any proof). Immirgation is well aware of this and ocassionally ask for extra proof about your income. The advise is to always take this extra proof with you, incase they ask for it.

Your case is nothing special.

Yes, Mario, I did do my "homework". I was well aware that Immig. has the 'authority' to ask for further proof.

However, from prior nearly unanimous posters, until just the past few weeks; all had said Chiang Mai Immig.

never asked and were always satisfied with US Consulate Affidavit. What is "New" -- is that from what I was

told, it is now going to be standard practice that they WILL ask and require supporting documentation to be attached

to the Affidavit if you are using the Income Method, for EITHER initial Non-O Conversation, OR for any Extension of Stay (or renewal).

That, to my understanding, is NEW -- and, the purpose of my post -- to helpfully advise all Forum users of this new policy so they

are not 'caught with their pants' down. And, that ONLY "Pension" Income will be acceptable, despite the rule saying "Income or Pension".

So, those in situations similar to ours, will now ONLY be able to use the Money-in-Bank method; which we will do; and

be ready for when we apply for Extension. (Yes, I know it needs to be seasoned 60 days, and we will just have enough time,

if money deposited in next week or so).

[hml367]

It would be interesting for someone that makes their extension of stay from now on and used the income method to post their experience.

MSPain

T.M. 87 Application for visa (requires proof of income, not an affidavit, for type O for purposes of spending the rest of life in the Kingdom)

T.M. 86 Application for change of visa (visa already approved, changing visa type, income affidavit acceptable for U.S. citizens and possibly others)

Applying for a visa, applying for change of visa, and extension of permission to stay are all different things.

Edited October 21, 2012 by hml367

[Mario2008]

I have seen several post from Chiag Mai in which extra proof was asked. They don't do it all the time, but it does happen.

[mcgriffith]

Mr. Justice,

Well, now you have explained your unique situation a bit more clearly.

You didn't state in your original post that you were applying to change the visa exempt to a 90 day non-imm category O, and was then trying to immediately upgrade the non-imm category "O" to an extension of stay.

AFAIK, it has never been possible to do this simultaneously. Perhaps in some other Imm office elsewhere in Thailand, but not here in Chiang Mai.

You get the non-Imm cat O, and come back 60 days (minimum) up until the expiry date, and apply for an extension of stay based on retirement.

As to the change in requirement to show proof of income (other than the consular income statement)- nothing there has changed.

I think you might have missed a few comments by some who have said that Immigration has always had the right to ask for corroborating documentation. We have heard this before, for years on this forum, from people who were unexpectedly asked to show documentation of income.

They have then posted here, announcing that the rules have changed, that the consular letter is not enough, etc.

And then- nothing. Consular letter accepted by CM Imm, no problem.

Part of this is related to your new (first time) application. They tend to scutinize first time applicants more than others.

Someone who has been here for years, and has had multiple issuances of retirement extensions by the same office, are almost never asked for what you are stating is now required.

For the record, I was in CM Imm about 3 weeks ago for my annual extension based on retirement, and my consular income statement was accepted, with no further documentation. Of course, I had the documentation, had it been requested.

I'm glad you got your situation worked out.

Now take a deep breath, exhale slowly...and enjoy your now legal status.

[zippydedodah]

well, i posted almost one year ago that i was asked for my pension documentation and informed at that time that in the future, it would be required of me... no global statement was made by the officer, but the tone WAS that it would be a permanent future necessity... and so i said in my post at that time. Since then, many folks went and reported no proof of income required and then recently, as noted, many folks are saying it is...

Moral of the story (for me) is...TIT... things change, crap happens and you should always be prepared as best you can. When i did NOT have my documentation with me at the time of my spousal renewal, the officer said to just pop in and drop it off on her desk the next day, anytime...which i did, which she accepted and which resulted in my visa being extended/renewed.

On another note: i also saw the same officer ask a friend of ours (thai woman) to tell her husband he needed to provide the lease statements for the properties they owned and rented out in UK... as well as the monthly deposits into their UK acct and the monthly transfers into thai bank accts...

when the thai woman asked where she was "getting these requirements and the authority for these requirements from"... the immigration lady ran her finger over her nameplate on her uniform....end of story

[Mrjustice]

It would be interesting for someone that makes their extension of stay from now on and used the income method to post their experience.

MSPain

T.M. 87 Application for visa (requires proof of income, not an affidavit, for type O for purposes of spending the rest of life in the Kingdom)

T.M. 86 Application for change of visa (visa already approved, changing visa type, income affidavit acceptable for U.S. citizens and possibly others)

Applying for a visa, applying for change of visa, and extension of permission to stay are all different things.

INCORRECT. They may be 'different things', but requirements are all the SAME:

1. Over age 50.

2. Proof of Income "certified by your Embassy" of 65000 THB; OR 800000THB in Bank (properly seasoned for extension, but not initial Non "O"

That's all!

Again, all I am trying to emphasize, is what has 'changed' now at least for Chiang Mai Immig. Office, is that if you are using the Income Method, the Affidavit from Consulate alone will not be satisfactory; you will be required to have corrobating documentation, and it must be "Pension" income.

[Mrjustice]

Mr. Justice,

Well, now you have explained your unique situation a bit more clearly.

You didn't state in your original post that you were applying to change the visa exempt to a 90 day non-imm category O, and then was trying to immediately upgrade the non-imm category "O" to an extension of stay.

AFAIK, it has never been possible to do this simultaneously. Perhaps in some other Imm office elsewhere in Thailand, but not here in Chiang Mai.

You get the non-Imm cat O, and come back 60 days (minimum) up until the expiry date, and apply for an extension of stay based on retirement.

As to the change in requirement to show proof of income (other than the consular income statement)- nothing there has changed.

I think you might have missed a few comments by some who have said that Immigration has always had the right to ask for corroborating documentation.

For the record, I was in CM Imm about 3 weeks ago for my annual extension based on retirement, and my consular income statement was accepted, with no further documentation. Of course, I had the documentation, had it been requested.

I'm glad you got your situation worked out.

Now take a deep breath, exhale slowly...and enjoy your now legal status.

Again, I think you are misunderstanding the point.

The fact that I was going to try to Extend at same time had nothing to do with anything -- and was not a 'unique situation'.

It occupied 10secs. of time, for the original Immig. Office to hand it back to me, and say later. And, then it was totally

out of the picture. (And, yes I had read that Chiang Mai was probably not one of the offices that would allow a simultaneous

extension, but that things always depend on individ. officers and mood).

As far as your experience 3 weeks ago, I think you just 'made it in under the wire' and that was just prior to when they began implementing

the 'new policy'. This is based not only on the 2 prior posters, to which I originally responded that said they had same

experience as I did at beginning of this month; but also based on what I was told at Immig., that they had supposedly

"telephoned" US Consulate in past couple of weeks about this issue, etc.

Finally, I am very happy with my 'new status' and no need to exhale -- did that after our long day yesterday.

Again, I'm just trying to help here by giving a Heads Up to folks for the future. And, just don't want there to

be misunderstandings as to what happened, and what's required. If someone else goes in for either Non-O

or for Extension/Renewal of Stay, they need to know that corrobabting documentation of Pension Income is

going to be required. (If someone finds they don't need to after this, good for them; but, that's not what I was told

very expressly and clearly yesterday). That's all.

[mamborobert]

It would be interesting for someone that makes their extension of stay from now on and used the income method to post their experience.

MSPain

T.M. 87 Application for visa (requires proof of income, not an affidavit, for type O for purposes of spending the rest of life in the Kingdom)

T.M. 86 Application for change of visa (visa already approved, changing visa type, income affidavit acceptable for U.S. citizens and possibly others)

Applying for a visa, applying for change of visa, and extension of permission to stay are all different things.

INCORRECT. They may be 'different things', but requirements are all the SAME:

1. Over age 50.

2. Proof of Income "certified by your Embassy" of 65000 THB; OR 800000THB in Bank (properly seasoned for extension, but not initial Non "O"

That's all!

Again, all I am trying to emphasize, is what has 'changed' now at least for Chiang Mai Immig. Office, is that if you are using the Income Method, the Affidavit from Consulate alone will not be satisfactory; you will be required to have corrobating documentation, and it must be "Pension" income.

Just because one meets the requirements does not mean that one gets a visa. There is no "right" to a visa. Its not tick all the boxes and out spits the visa.

A visa grant is a delegated authority and each immigration officer has to be satisfied that their grant is appropriate, lawful, and within their delegated authority. An experienced officer may require less supporting documentation. Likewise may have to require more documentation for an initial visa grant.

When Zippydedodah indicated that the officer pointed to her name tag...its right. Its her name and her delegated authority. She has to be satisfied. Someone else may require lesser or greater supporting documentation. You can get a differing outcome everyday....thats normal.

The law provides a basic framework but there are also policies, guidelines, regulations, case law, and protocols that establush how the law is to be interpreted and applied.

An immigration officer always has the right to ask for supporting documetation. They make a risk assessment (new visa, physical presentation, history as presented etc).

If you fail the "attitude test" then of course they ask for more......that's not just Thailand either.

Nothing has changed......they can ask always.

[Mrjustice]

It would be interesting for someone that makes their extension of stay from now on and used the income method to post their experience.

MSPain

T.M. 87 Application for visa (requires proof of income, not an affidavit, for type O for purposes of spending the rest of life in the Kingdom)

T.M. 86 Application for change of visa (visa already approved, changing visa type, income affidavit acceptable for U.S. citizens and possibly others)

Applying for a visa, applying for change of visa, and extension of permission to stay are all different things.

INCORRECT. They may be 'different things', but requirements are all the SAME:

1. Over age 50.

2. Proof of Income "certified by your Embassy" of 65000 THB; OR 800000THB in Bank (properly seasoned for extension, but not initial Non "O"

That's all!

Again, all I am trying to emphasize, is what has 'changed' now at least for Chiang Mai Immig. Office, is that if you are using the Income Method, the Affidavit from Consulate alone will not be satisfactory; you will be required to have corrobating documentation, and it must be "Pension" income.

Just because one meets the requirements does not mean that one gets a visa. There is no "right" to a visa. Its not tick all the boxes and out spits the visa.

A visa grant is a delegated authority and each immigration officer has to be satisfied that their grant is appropriate, lawful, and within their delegated authority. An experienced officer may require less supporting documentation. Likewise may have to require more documentation for an initial visa grant.

When Zippydedodah indicated that the officer pointed to her name tag...its right. Its her name and her delegated authority. She has to be satisfied. Someone else may require lesser or greater supporting documentation. You can get a differing outcome everyday....thats normal.

The law provides a basic framework but there are also policies, guidelines, regulations, case law, and protocols that establush how the law is to be interpreted and applied.

An immigration officer always has the right to ask for supporting documetation. They make a risk assessment (new visa, physical presentation, history as presented etc).

If you fail the "attitude test" then of course they ask for more......that's not just Thailand either.

Nothing has changed......they can ask always.

Ah yes, "my Attitude" must have been the problem -- here we go again.

Please read my original post again. No appearance problem; no attitude problem; original

Immig. Officer very nice, and appeared to say all was okay and passed along our docs.

Only later called up by Sgt. Major to advise we were denied.

And, as I also acknowledged, I am/was fully aware of the discretionary authority of Immigration Officers,

to grant or deny Visa for any reason; and to require additional documentation. Not my point.

Getting discouraged, that my helpful advice/heads up, turns into the 'blame' game.

For those who want to believe we did something wrong, fine believe what you like.

And, with any luck, you enjoy same experience we had.

For those who wish to accept my well-intentioned advisement and heads up, your welcome.

I'm finished with this topic.

[mamborobert]

It would be interesting for someone that makes their extension of stay from now on and used the income method to post their experience.

MSPain

T.M. 87 Application for visa (requires proof of income, not an affidavit, for type O for purposes of spending the rest of life in the Kingdom)

T.M. 86 Application for change of visa (visa already approved, changing visa type, income affidavit acceptable for U.S. citizens and possibly others)

Applying for a visa, applying for change of visa, and extension of permission to stay are all different things.

INCORRECT. They may be 'different things', but requirements are all the SAME:

1. Over age 50.

2. Proof of Income "certified by your Embassy" of 65000 THB; OR 800000THB in Bank (properly seasoned for extension, but not initial Non "O"

That's all!

Again, all I am trying to emphasize, is what has 'changed' now at least for Chiang Mai Immig. Office, is that if you are using the Income Method, the Affidavit from Consulate alone will not be satisfactory; you will be required to have corrobating documentation, and it must be "Pension" income.

Just because one meets the requirements does not mean that one gets a visa. There is no "right" to a visa. Its not tick all the boxes and out spits the visa.

A visa grant is a delegated authority and each immigration officer has to be satisfied that their grant is appropriate, lawful, and within their delegated authority. An experienced officer may require less supporting documentation. Likewise may have to require more documentation for an initial visa grant.

When Zippydedodah indicated that the officer pointed to her name tag...its right. Its her name and her delegated authority. She has to be satisfied. Someone else may require lesser or greater supporting documentation. You can get a differing outcome everyday....thats normal.

The law provides a basic framework but there are also policies, guidelines, regulations, case law, and protocols that establush how the law is to be interpreted and applied.

An immigration officer always has the right to ask for supporting documetation. They make a risk assessment (new visa, physical presentation, history as presented etc).

If you fail the "attitude test" then of course they ask for more......that's not just Thailand either.

Nothing has changed......they can ask always.

Ah yes, "my Attitude" must have been the problem -- here we go again.

Please read my original post again. No appearance problem; no attitude problem; original

Immig. Officer very nice, and appeared to say all was okay and passed along our docs.

Only later called up by Sgt. Major to advise we were denied.

And, as I also acknowledged, I am/was fully aware of the discretionary authority of Immigration Officers,

to grant or deny Visa for any reason; and to require additional documentation. Not my point.

Getting discouraged, that my helpful advice/heads up, turns into the 'blame' game.

For those who want to believe we did something wrong, fine believe what you like.

And, with any luck, you enjoy same experience we had.

For those who wish to accept my well-intentioned advisement and heads up, your welcome.

I'm finished with this topic.

Ease up....not talking about your attitude I was talking (as others have) about attitude in general. I qualified this as not being a Thai only issue (and further not even an Immigration only issue).

Neither did I say you did anything wrong.......

If you are getting this cut up about posts on a forum I will say (now) that perhaps you are not the best judge of your PERCEIVED behaviour at immigration.

All I am trying to point out is that everyones exeperience will be unique depending on what they are applying for, their history, who they see, what evidence they provide (or will be asked to provide) etc.

You had an "experience". For the most part it will be unique to you and your set of circumstances.

Its ok to give people a heads up of your experience...its valid to you.

If the next person who applies for a retirement visa gets a different experience (ie not asked for supporting documentation) it does not invalidate your experience.

Your experince COULD happen again to anyone....but it equally might not based upon the previous (and no doubt future) experiences of others.

Perhaps a future renewal (US or otherwise) could update.

[hml367]

The requirements listed in English on the Immigration web site (not the CM Imm web site) are not the same.

The requirements for getting a Non Imm O for purposes of spending life un the Kingdom within Thailand and in your home country are not the same.

It is good that you posted your experience and that xan give someone an idea of what could happen.

I think someone elses post may give a more clear picture of what is or is not required.

I have never produced anything more than the affidavit within Thailand. I did have to produce proof of income to get the visa.

MSPain

Edited October 21, 2012 by hml367

[hellodolly]

It would be interesting for someone that makes their extension of stay from now on and used the income method to post their experience.

MSPain

T.M. 87 Application for visa (requires proof of income, not an affidavit, for type O for purposes of spending the rest of life in the Kingdom)

T.M. 86 Application for change of visa (visa already approved, changing visa type, income affidavit acceptable for U.S. citizens and possibly others)

Applying for a visa, applying for change of visa, and extension of permission to stay are all different things.

INCORRECT. They may be 'different things', but requirements are all the SAME:

1. Over age 50.

2. Proof of Income "certified by your Embassy" of 65000 THB; OR 800000THB in Bank (properly seasoned for extension, but not initial Non "O"

That's all!

Again, all I am trying to emphasize, is what has 'changed' now at least for Chiang Mai Immig. Office, is that if you are using the Income Method, the Affidavit from Consulate alone will not be satisfactory; you will be required to have corrobating documentation, and it must be "Pension" income.

Just because one meets the requirements does not mean that one gets a visa. There is no "right" to a visa. Its not tick all the boxes and out spits the visa.

A visa grant is a delegated authority and each immigration officer has to be satisfied that their grant is appropriate, lawful, and within their delegated authority. An experienced officer may require less supporting documentation. Likewise may have to require more documentation for an initial visa grant.

When Zippydedodah indicated that the officer pointed to her name tag...its right. Its her name and her delegated authority. She has to be satisfied. Someone else may require lesser or greater supporting documentation. You can get a differing outcome everyday....thats normal.

The law provides a basic framework but there are also policies, guidelines, regulations, case law, and protocols that establush how the law is to be interpreted and applied.

An immigration officer always has the right to ask for supporting documetation. They make a risk assessment (new visa, physical presentation, history as presented etc).

If you fail the "attitude test" then of course they ask for more......that's not just Thailand either.

Nothing has changed......they can ask always.

Ah yes, "my Attitude" must have been the problem -- here we go again.

Please read my original post again. No appearance problem; no attitude problem; original

Immig. Officer very nice, and appeared to say all was okay and passed along our docs.

Only later called up by Sgt. Major to advise we were denied.

And, as I also acknowledged, I am/was fully aware of the discretionary authority of Immigration Officers,

to grant or deny Visa for any reason; and to require additional documentation. Not my point.

Getting discouraged, that my helpful advice/heads up, turns into the 'blame' game.

For those who want to believe we did something wrong, fine believe what you like.

And, with any luck, you enjoy same experience we had.

For those who wish to accept my well-intentioned advisement and heads up, your welcome.

I'm finished with this topic.

It seems that we get this heads up information from time to time. Generally it is in cases where One person was asked for additional documents. It is then backed up by people who have also been asked. What these people fail to say is it was years ago . There to the best of my knowledge has not been one thread yet on the topic where people were asked more than once and if it has happened it was not two years in a row. That should tell you something.

Another point is you seem to be the only one who has had this problem. I see no posts other than your post claiming it happened recently. You seem to be new and susceptible Thai ways of different methods Thai' will use from time to time. Relax and enjoy yourself. You are no longer home you are now in a land that does things differently.

Always remember it is wrong only to you to them it is the way they do it so it is right. To impose your values on them in your dealings will just make you a unhappy expat. Relax and enjoy the life.

It just occurred to me that if it was true we are in for a lively series of posts next week.

Edited October 21, 2012 by hellodolly