Why Are Used Book Stores So Expensive In Chiang Mai?

[CMX]

VicarX,

Thanks for your take on Raintree; I'm sure it will be helpful to anybody new in town who is following this thread. Local readers will know about it of course, and AUA. As you point out, their collections are unfortunately limited. I'm not certain about the unfortunate contentiousness, however, but any negatives about our community from newcomers bring on the attack-dog, in me, at least.

But I think that your suggestion that those of us who enjoy finding the 30-50 bargain title in the bin, hereabouts, is correct. After all, compared to BKK, the population of English language book-buyers (or private sellers) is tiny. You might be unaware of another factor, but tourism has been down here lately, though we're all hoping that book-laden travelers begin arriving any minute, anxious to rid themselves of carry-on weight in books, thus adding to our contemporary collections.

[hellodolly]

I'll leave the Negative Nellies to themselves; no need to reply. But no to the last jaded poster, I'm not interested at all in opening a book store (I'm retired and did enough in my lifetime).

On the positive side, I've just visited the Raintree Resource Center. It's terrific. And it's free (if you live in Chiang Mai and provide them with an address and a telephone number). Here are some other points about them:

1) they are not connected to the Raintree Foundation (at least to my knowledge; the foundation seems to have a very similar logo, or vice versa);

2) they are sponsored by the Chiang Mai Community Church; they do have quite a few religous books in their holdings but it is a nondenomination church and they don't try to proselytize;

3) they have a large stock of books (their web site says 5,000) and having just visited, I believe that estimate. The Raintree occupies 3 very large rooms and each is amply stocked with books and magazines. In addition, there are a number of comfortable cane/wicker type chairs where you can sit and read or converse with others and a number of strategically placed fans.

4) They have a large selection of books for children and another large youth collection. I'm sure that's very helpful for families living here.

5) They have a very good selection of fiction and nonfiction books. Magazines included (from what I saw in cursory fashion) Newsweek and National Geographic (and a lot of church magazines and travel magazines). No newspapers that I saw.

6) They have a very large travel section (at least 200 books, I would estimate) with fairly up to date books.

7) I spent most of my time in the adult fiction section (which takes up most of the largest room). Overall, they have more space than any bookstore I visited in CM with the exception, maybe, of one.

8) Here are some samples of what they have in the fiction section (to give people an idea of their holdings):

12 David Baldacci books;

40 plus A. Christie mysteries;

4 books by Patrick O'Brian;

5 books by Jane Austen;

9 books by C. Dickens;

3 books by Dostoevsky;

20 or so books by Dick Francis;

12 books by James Michener;

1 book by Mary Renault;

7 books by Len Deighton;

6 books by John Steinbeck;

the Edith Grossman translation of Don Quixote;

9) I struck out on two of my favorite authors. They have zero books by Georges Simenon (who wrote hundreds) and they have zero by Roald Dahl, at least in the adult section (Dahl might well be in the children or youth sections). So it is a bit hit and miss probably because their collection seems to come mostly from donations. Yet, overall, I was favorably impressed with what they do have. Although they have a large number of books popular today, I'd say most of their collection is classics and popular authors from a while back. That suits me fine. Thus, I was pleased to find a copy of a book I had not read by Victor Canning, another favorite author.

10) they also have cd's, DVD's, audio books, and tapes that can be checked out. Quite a large collection. The cd's, however, are mostly religious music.

11) they also have a stand of free pamphlets, brochures, maps and other materials including two handy publications. One is called Helpful Hints For Getting Settled in Chiang Mai, a 97 page publication they put together. Suggested donation is B 40 and I would say this is a bargain. They have another similar publication, same suggested donation, on giving birth in Chiang Mai. The Vicar passed on this one (by the way, it is only my handle here and I am not connected to any religion and have no connection to the Raintree people; I do not benefit in any way from positively reviewing them).

12) There was a very helpful and friendly volunteer worker at the Raintree. They also have coffee, tea and hot and cold water (no price but a donation of some kind suggested) for users. Overall, the Raintree is pleasant, comfortable, and has a nice feel to it. I also met a few other patrons and they were friendly and talkative. No one talked about or pushed religion.

13) They have a small web site that gives their location and hours. http://cmcchurch.org...ss/?page_id=535

It is located just on the other side of the Narowat Bridge (turn left immediately after you go across the bridge and then turn right immediately into their very large parking lot. They have signs and two entrances, one from the parking lot and one from the street that continues from Narowat Bridge.

14) The only negative is their hours: 10 a.m. to noon and closed on Wednesday. Sunday open only 1 hour (in the afternoon). This is understandable given that they are a free lending service and they rely mostly on volunteer staffing. I was told that they had evening hours in the past and maybe will again.

But given the variety of books they have, the pleasantness of their library (yes, I know it is in an old building but they've made it comfortable), the openness of the people there, I'd say this is a terrific community resource. Of course, they might not have specific titles that a reader may want and for that purpose there are the local bookstores, mostly overpriced used bookstores and the ereaders.

But all in all, I'd say very well done Raintree!

As I said if they have 5,000 books there UG has 30,000 I only counted two rooms one of them being el shaped with vary few books in the el shaped part. The rest of the room had shelves around it with none in the center The center has a glass covered table with 4 wicker chairs around it. The other room serves as there office and does have some shelves in the middle of it. It also has a glass covered table with 6 wicker chairs around it. What the vicar dosen't know is they also have some boxes with books in the storage room.

I am by no means a expert on book stores but I have been in a few and I have found many books for 100 baht. It is not my fault the vicar only likes books with a high price on them. I wonder how many of the 40 plus A. Christie mysteries; he checked out. Also I have borrowed a book or two over the years and the quality is not always there. Many of them you would find in the 50 or 60 baht bin at other stores.

Edited October 4, 2012 by sbk
deleted quoted post removed

[TheVicar]

HelloDolly, can I ask you when you last visited Raintree? And did you actually go in all the rooms? ALL of the rooms have plenty of books in them. You must have been a long time ago! I know that they have some boxes (books for FREE no less) in one of the rooms, opposite the coffee section. You say you have checked out a "book or two" but the quality isn't there. I strongly disagree with that. The 3 books I checked out today are in mint condition. And I didn't have to pay ANYTHING FOR THEM! It also seems odd that for someone who has admitted he uses ereaders and not bookstores so much, that you're spending an inordinate amount of time here on a topic you admitted you knew and know nothing about. Your Kindle not working today?

Edited October 4, 2012 by TheVicar

[NancyL]

There will be a second-hand goods section at the November 24 JJ Market Christmas Charity Shopping fair. Many of those tables are booked by individuals to sell their personal items -- like their collection of books, clothing in good condition that they no longer wear. household items, etc.

I know it's not a replacement for the many used book shops in CM and I don't think they're particularly expensive. But the fair would be a good opportunity for people to sell books they no longer want and to stock up on new titles.

Also, several charities will be selling second-hand goods at the fair and would appreciate donations if you don't want to reserve a table and spend the day selling your personal collection. Royal British Legion is one such charity that would appreciate donated clothing, books and DVDs.

http://www.lannacare...-shopping-fair/

Nancy; can you give me a location for JJ market as I've never seen it or been there....Thanks.

type "location of JJ Market Chiang Mai" into google and you'll see a map.

It's on Atsadathon Road, which is the road that goes straight north from the northeast corner of the old city toward the Superhighway. It is just before (south of) the big Tesco Lotus.

[TheVicar]

VicarX,

Thanks for your take on Raintree; I'm sure it will be helpful to anybody new in town who is following this thread. Local readers will know about it of course, and AUA. I doubt that many locals know much about it (they don't really publicize themselves) and the local here who claims he has been there, HelloDolly, must have gone once long ago when they had a much smaller collection. Moreover, the "locals" here (and I think you mean local expats, the local Thais are fine) really are not very impressive. Lots of drunkards and alcoholics and people who have failed elsewhere. As you point out, their collections are unfortunately limited. AUA has a smaller collection than Raintree but they do get the Bangkok Post and the International Herald Tribune. They have much less space and a much smaller collection (I'd estimate one half) of what Raintree has. AUA really needs to expand. They do have a very good, and highly professional staff. I'm not certain about the unfortunate contentiousness, however, but any negatives about our community from newcomers bring on the attack-dog, in me, at least. Too bad; it's best to keep a more open mind.

But I think that your suggestion that those of us who enjoy finding the 30-50 bargain title in the bin, hereabouts, is correct. After all, compared to BKK, the population of English language book-buyers (or private sellers) is tiny. You might be unaware of another factor, but tourism has been down here lately As I've written here elsewhere (in my original post I think) I have lived in Thailand for 20 years. Tourism is off world wide. We're in a global economic crisis that looks like it will last several more years. Given that, I'm surprised that a town so tied to tourism has so many Yahoos in it. Especially a businessman who has to interact and deal with the public; maybe he should read a book from Dale Carnegie and learn something. , though we're all hoping that book-laden travelers begin arriving any minute, anxious to rid themselves of carry-on weight in books, thus adding to our contemporary collections. Not going to happen and no need for it because most of the books like that are pure rubbish; go to Raintree and check out much better books for free.

Thanks CMX.

Edited October 4, 2012 by TheVicar

[WinnieTheKhwai]

(And there I was thinking the Thaivisa hamburger wars were bad..)

Edited October 4, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[gennisis]

Well...I,ve read through all the posts and have come to the conclusion that 'The Vicar" has a bee in his bonnet for some reason.

I've been a customer of Gecko for 5 years now. I regularly, every month take back around a dozen books,choose a new selection and end up paying around 1000 baht.

So my reading is costing me about 30 baht a day......but "the Vicar" tells me that it would be cheaper in Bangkok !!

Edited October 4, 2012 by sbk
flame removed

[sbk]

Off topic posts deleted.

Flame posts deleted.

What a surprise.

[hellodolly]

HelloDolly, can I ask you when you last visited Raintree? And did you actually go in all the rooms? ALL of the rooms have plenty of books in them. You must have been a long time ago! I know that they have some boxes (books for FREE no less) in one of the rooms, opposite the coffee section. You say you have checked out a "book or two" but the quality isn't there. I strongly disagree with that. The 3 books I checked out today are in mint condition. And I didn't have to pay ANYTHING FOR THEM! It also seems odd that for someone who has admitted he uses ereaders and not bookstores so much, that you're spending an inordinate amount of time here on a topic you admitted you knew and know nothing about. Your Kindle not working today?

You asked me when was the last time I was in Rain Tree. Not going to tell you but I will give you a hint I am in there every week. They have a box of free books on the floor next to the door between the two rooms. Every once in a while being clumsy I hit it.

I did not say all the books were in bad condition but many of them are. The condition of a book is not what drives me. The contents is what I seek a book out for. Yes there are many books in there in very good condition also in just good condition. One I took out I had to hold the pages in or the book would have fallen apart. You obviously did not look in the storage room there are several boxes in there.

I would like to own an e reader but I don't as you well know by reading my posts where I buy books for 99 baht at the bookshelf and put them on my to read pile. I also mentioned that I do go to other book stores looking for books to complete a set. I have a wide interest in books and it is not always the author or the genre that draws me to them. Just some thing about them that intrigues me.

For instance I am currently reading the biography of Buffalo Bill by Zane Gray as related to him by Buffalo Bill's sister. I had just finished up on the biography of Steve Jobs and my next book will be the third book in a three book set of historical fiction about Genghis Khan by Conn Iggulden, I have read the biography of Genghis Khan. I read Louis L'amour Science fiction Steven Hawkins. In short a wide variety many mysteries such as Douglas Preston and he some times

writes book's with Lincoln Child also I read Clive Cussler. I read Science Fiction and as you all ready know westerns. In fact I am not a book snob It does not have to be from a famous author or a really popular one. As I said the condition matters not to me if I want to read it I will.

The short and the long of it is I am no stranger to book stores but I do not presume to judge them. In my opinion yes some of the prices are high some low. Makes no difference to me if I want it bad I will buy it if not that bad I will wait it will loose it's popularity and the price will then go down. Take for instance the price of your Nobel prize winner. I bet when he got the Nobel prize it cost more than ten baht.

Just to let you know a little secret that will make your heart flutter. In Canada I bought them at Garage sales and Flea markets for on the average 30 baht.

Stick to Rain Tree In my opinion you will love it there free is a big draw to you.

Edited October 4, 2012 by hellodolly

[jackr]

Though a major city today, I'd posit one reason could be that Chiang Mai was traditionally off-the-beaten-track so certain 'luxuries' would be pricier. Hubs, thru-towns and major go-to places like Bkk, HCMC, and Vientiane are always going to be cheaper, and even in Penang, which, although an island, is well and truly on the banana trail. So I think one is comparing apples & oranges a bit... and also being slightly pedantic.

Thanks for the info on Raintree.

Edited October 5, 2012 by jackr

[Mousehound]

UG will be along in a minute to explain the economics of running a bookstore...

I will give it a try.

First of all, the OP's premise is just plain wrong (and by the way, I have several copies of the title he was looking on the shelves for at less than 200 baht). In general, Chiang Mai has cheaper used books than most other cities in Thailand. I have visited many book stores in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Koh Samui and I get books from these places constantly, so it is pretty easy to keep track. Yes, there are a few stores around that sell everything very cheap, but the owner usually does not know much about books and has very few good books in stock and lots of complete junk. If you are walking by it might be worth going in just in case there is one or two good titles, but most customers want a variety of good books in one place and normally, this kind of store does not have many at all.

Of course someone can always point to better deals they got on certain books from different stores, but that is the nature of used book shops. If someone has too many copies of a certain title, they might sell it cheaply - otherwise, they may never sell it at all. I have a fair number of titles that I know that I am probably never going to get rid of - I have way too many in stock. I put them on special, but another store might be selling them for far more because they do not have many copies. It does not make them "expensive" because they are not giving it away for the price that they bought it for originally or even less like I am.

The last time that I looked, I had something like 15,000 titles that cost 100 baht or less. They are not the newest, trendiest titles, but many of them were a few years ago. Unfortunately, the newest, trendiest titles and some perennial best sellers are all that most people are interested in. I would estimate that 90% of the customers are only interested in 3% of the stock. I can never get enough of those titles and I often have to pay a lot to get them. Those are usually the books that people want to bargain for, but if they don't buy it for the marked price, someone else will shortly afterwards and I will probably have a very difficult time obtaining another one.

Someone mentioned the price of used books in English speaking countries and specifically charity shops. The charity shops get them for free and they have a constant supply, so of course they are cheaper than here. The regular book shops in English speaking countries also have a constant supply of cheap books as many people in developed countries just throw them away. I have to import most of my books from these countries and pay for transportation and customs fees which is quite expensive. That being said, I have visited Australia a number of times and find the used books (in proper book shops) to be about the same price as in Thailand. We are in a small city in the middle of South East Asia with few English readers. Of course London has better bookstores and cheaper prices.

On e-books, I am guessing they will eventually replace paper books, because, until they do, the sellers will try to keep the prices down. It reminds me of when when the big chains moved into San Francisco and put most of the independent book stores out of business by discounting most of their books. They said that they sold such a big volume that they would always sell books cheaply, but as soon as the smaller shops were driven out, they severely cut back on the discounts. My prediction is that the e-book sellers will do the same. Luckily, many people want a copy of their favorite books to keep and they usually want a physical copy rather than just some words on a screen. I do not know how long the publishers will keep making paper books, but as long as they do, there will be people who prefer them. However, they might not be around for long.

As a"Book tragic' all my life and a heavy reader, I decided to open my own used book shop in Australia. It was several years of hunting down unusual books as well as stocking paperbacks as bread and butter. I eventually closed the business - sadly. Costs were just too high. Also, a chain of used book shops opened and they were offering as much as I was selling paperbacks for. This made getting stock difficult. So they were retailing used books for 70% of the new price and getting that price as they were buying up all the stock. In the rare book area I still did OK. About a third of my clients were other book shops looking to fill client demand/requests. I averaged a 500k a week running around buying books that I really wanted. I often sold books I would have kept if I could afford to - often first edition signed copies. The thing is that with a used bookshop you can't just replace a book that you have sold. It may be that you will never see a copy again. I kept some books for years before they were grabed by buyers who were amazed that I even had a copy. Books on shipping, manuals on old lathes and tractors come to mind. It was a great pleasure to get a rare book to a greatful client. But the writing was on the wall. Young people don't read much. Television and cable, media centres, and Kindle were on the horizon. I closed down and kept some of my best collection.

I find the used book shops in CM are about the price I would expect to find. The selection is not to my personal taste but this is most likely a result of what stock you can get hold of and at the right price. Getting these two factors is not easy.

UG,s posts ring true to me. And, Hello Dolly has it right also. A lot of people have shifted to Kindle type media - thay have the power to undercut prices to cut out the retailer. I believe technical books and collectables will endure - at a high price. Sadly book shops will close - used and new. Borders and another chain of book stores has closed down in my home town of Perth, as have many of the used book shops. It is a sign of the times.

By the way, I have a hardback set in slip cover of Master & Commander (The Complete Aubrey/Maturin Novels) and no. It is not for sale. Yet!

By the way the bookshop in Siam Paragon is first class. It has done some serious damage to my credit card.

[Priceless]

A note on the Kindle discussion:

It appears that many posters believe that by buying an e-book version, they will automatically save a lot of money. This is apparently not always true.

I am not a Kindle user, nor am I much of a customer of the local second-hand (pre-read?) bookstores. The reason for the latter is that my reading interests are somewhat specialized (though I am an avid reader). Out of curiosity I looked up my three latest book purchases (on amazon.com, which incidentally is not where I usually source my books). My savings would have averaged 14.5% buying e-books, compared to hardcover versions. In fact, the savings on the two recently published ones were 9.4% and 3.7%, respectively. The only in my opinion significant saving (34.1%) was on the third one, which was originally published ~15 years ago.

I have not included the postage costs, since that would have complicated the comparison. I usually order my books from UK, since the postage from the US is outrageous and parcels from e.g. amazon.com seem to always end up with Thai customs, which further increases the costs. However, it seems that you are not allowed to order e-books from outside the UK

/ Priceless

[Greenwich Boy]

Although I have not even arrived in Chiang Mai yet I did some research about book availability and, after 40 odd years of reading hard copy decided to take the plunge and get a Kindle.

bought from the Amazon store on line for 69 pds sterling, delivered in 48 hrs for free (again I am still in the UK) and it is brilliant.

newspapers and magazines a bonus

doddle to set up even for me but one question on a theme from these threads- where are all the free books? and where do you get them from?

I have just downloaded my first paid for book which I am congratulating myself on but for free sounds even better!

[endure]

Although I have not even arrived in Chiang Mai yet I did some research about book availability and, after 40 odd years of reading hard copy decided to take the plunge and get a Kindle.

bought from the Amazon store on line for 69 pds sterling, delivered in 48 hrs for free (again I am still in the UK) and it is brilliant.

newspapers and magazines a bonus

doddle to set up even for me but one question on a theme from these threads- where are all the free books? and where do you get them from?

I have just downloaded my first paid for book which I am congratulating myself on but for free sounds even better!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/b/ref=amb_link_157681107_37?ie=UTF8&node=434020031&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=left-2&pf_rd_r=0B45S9D7GJGT0AZ0M766&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=321860107&pf_rd_i=341689031

[TommoPhysicist]

A note on the Kindle discussion:

It appears that many posters believe that by buying an e-book version, they will automatically save a lot of money. This is apparently not always true.

I am not a Kindle user, nor am I much of a customer of the local second-hand (pre-read?) bookstores. The reason for the latter is that my reading interests are somewhat specialized (though I am an avid reader). Out of curiosity I looked up my three latest book purchases (on amazon.com, which incidentally is not where I usually source my books). My savings would have averaged 14.5% buying e-books, compared to hardcover versions. In fact, the savings on the two recently published ones were 9.4% and 3.7%, respectively. The only in my opinion significant saving (34.1%) was on the third one, which was originally published ~15 years ago.

I have not included the postage costs, since that would have complicated the comparison. I usually order my books from UK, since the postage from the US is outrageous and parcels from e.g. amazon.com seem to always end up with Thai customs, which further increases the costs. However, it seems that you are not allowed to order e-books from outside the UK

/ Priceless

But many of us don't 'buy' books for our Kindles.

Think of it like buying from a second-hand bookshop, but without the buying part.

So we save 100% of the costs.

Now that's what I call Priceless.

Edited October 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[TheVicar]

HelloDolly, can I ask you when you last visited Raintree? And did you actually go in all the rooms? ALL of the rooms have plenty of books in them. You must have been a long time ago! I know that they have some boxes (books for FREE no less) in one of the rooms, opposite the coffee section. You say you have checked out a "book or two" but the quality isn't there. I strongly disagree with that. The 3 books I checked out today are in mint condition. And I didn't have to pay ANYTHING FOR THEM! It also seems odd that for someone who has admitted he uses ereaders and not bookstores so much, that you're spending an inordinate amount of time here on a topic you admitted you knew and know nothing about. Your Kindle not working today?

You asked me when was the last time I was in Rain Tree. Not going to tell you but I will give you a hint I am in there every week. They have a box of free books on the floor next to the door between the two rooms. Every once in a while being clumsy I hit it.

I did not say all the books were in bad condition but many of them are. The condition of a book is not what drives me. The contents is what I seek a book out for. Yes there are many books in there in very good condition also in just good condition. One I took out I had to hold the pages in or the book would have fallen apart. You obviously did not look in the storage room there are several boxes in there.

I would like to own an e reader but I don't as you well know by reading my posts where I buy books for 99 baht at the bookshelf and put them on my to read pile. I also mentioned that I do go to other book stores looking for books to complete a set. I have a wide interest in books and it is not always the author or the genre that draws me to them. Just some thing about them that intrigues me.

For instance I am currently reading the biography of Buffalo Bill by Zane Gray as related to him by Buffalo Bill's sister. I had just finished up on the biography of Steve Jobs and my next book will be the third book in a three book set of historical fiction about Genghis Khan by Conn Iggulden, I have read the biography of Genghis Khan. I read Louis L'amour Science fiction Steven Hawkins. In short a wide variety many mysteries such as Douglas Preston and he some times

writes book's with Lincoln Child also I read Clive Cussler. I read Science Fiction and as you all ready know westerns. In fact I am not a book snob It does not have to be from a famous author or a really popular one. As I said the condition matters not to me if I want to read it I will.

The short and the long of it is I am no stranger to book stores but I do not presume to judge them. In my opinion yes some of the prices are high some low. Makes no difference to me if I want it bad I will buy it if not that bad I will wait it will loose it's popularity and the price will then go down. Take for instance the price of your Nobel prize winner. I bet when he got the Nobel prize it cost more than ten baht.

Just to let you know a little secret that will make your heart flutter. In Canada I bought them at Garage sales and Flea markets for on the average 30 baht.

Stick to Rain Tree In my opinion you will love it there free is a big draw to you.

Are there two HelloDolly's? One writes things like this: "For a real traveler get a kindle. You can take up to 3,600 books with you depending on the model. As a real travler would be able to tell You there are not bookshops for English speaking people in many of the smaller cities." The other one, in this post, denies he owns an ereader. The one HelloDolly says he's not an expert on book stores, this one has a completely different take. One HelloDolly is uniformly polite, the other can be tetchy.

To the HelloDolly in this post, I applaud your choice of books; it's not my cup of tea, but variety makes the world go round. I also once enjoyed reading the Zane Grey stories (one title that seems to come to mind is Riders of the Purple Sage) which are surprisingly well written and are good escapist fare. I hadn't heard of the Buffalo Bill biography but it likely would be very interesting. I've also enjoyed reading Owen Wister's books, especially The Virginian.

But why not say when you've last been to Raintree? I say this because I do suspect it has changed a lot since you last went (and yes, I know about the boxes (not just one) of books that users can take for free. They also have a very good guide to living in Chiang Mai (suggested contribution of 50 baht) and they sold a couple last time I was there. It is in its 21st edition, by the way. Today. I also looked at hundreds of their books and found NONE to be in the damaged condition that you allude to, although it is possible that out of the 5,000 or so books they have, that could be the case. It also happens (more frequently in my opinion) in used book stores that need to turn a profit.

William Faulkner, the Nobel Prize winner I spoke of, has been dead for a long time. 50 years, in fact. The way it works is that when someone wins a major literary prize, the price of their books goes up (and tends to stay up). That's why the publisher often adds, "written by Nobel Prize winner..." to the cover. You're talking about buying "bargain" books in Chiang Mai for 100 baht; I used the example of buying a Faulkner book in good condition for the equivalent of B 10 in Penang. Which is the better bargain? In fact, in my opinion, buying a used book for 100 baht which is what you tell us you do and which you think is a good bargain (which is about $3.30) is almost never a bargain for the buyer unless it is a truly exceptional book by an exceptional author. I think you could pick up a handful of Zane Grey's for $3.30 in the USA, Canada, or the UK. Even here in Thailand, a new book by that author at stores like Asia Books or Kinokuniya is not going to cost much more than the 100 baht you're paying for a used one. And you can probably find copies of Zane Grey at Chatuchak market for 10-20 baht each. After bargaining, that is, and that is another major point no one is talking about here. I've found you cannot bargain at the used book stores in Chiang Mai (I admit to having only gone to 5 of them but they are the 5 major ones) whereas you are almost expected to in Bangkok, Penang, Pattaya etc.

Good luck, and good reading to you. And thanks to the moderator for removing some of the Mad Dog posts!

Edited October 5, 2012 by TheVicar

[Priceless]

A note on the Kindle discussion:

It appears that many posters believe that by buying an e-book version, they will automatically save a lot of money. This is apparently not always true.

I am not a Kindle user, nor am I much of a customer of the local second-hand (pre-read?) bookstores. The reason for the latter is that my reading interests are somewhat specialized (though I am an avid reader). Out of curiosity I looked up my three latest book purchases (on amazon.com, which incidentally is not where I usually source my books). My savings would have averaged 14.5% buying e-books, compared to hardcover versions. In fact, the savings on the two recently published ones were 9.4% and 3.7%, respectively. The only in my opinion significant saving (34.1%) was on the third one, which was originally published ~15 years ago.

I have not included the postage costs, since that would have complicated the comparison. I usually order my books from UK, since the postage from the US is outrageous and parcels from e.g. amazon.com seem to always end up with Thai customs, which further increases the costs. However, it seems that you are not allowed to order e-books from outside the UK

/ Priceless

But many of us don't 'buy' books for our Kindles.

Think of it like buying from a second-hand bookshop, but without the buying part.

So we save 100% of the costs.

Now that's what I call Priceless.

I'm not saying that the prices that I quoted are typical or that my sample is, either. Obviously stealing is cheaper than buying, and if your interest lies in fiction of yesteryear you may well be able to easily find what your looking for, legally without charge.

I would however be very interested if you could point me to free, legal sources for the three titles I commented on:

Acemoglu & Robinson: Why Nations Fail

Logevall: Embers of War

Diamond: Guns, Germs, and Steel

The first book is a very interesting study in political economy, the latter are still waiting on my to-be-read shelf. The second is an historical study on the events leading up to the American involvement in Vietnam and the third might be classified as 'economic geography' or 'social development'. Not exactly light reading, but they happen to interest me.

/ Priceless

[TommoPhysicist]

I'm not saying that the prices that I quoted are typical or that my sample is, either. Obviously stealing is cheaper than buying, and if your interest lies in fiction of yesteryear you may well be able to easily find what your looking for, legally without charge.

Maybe you could explain to me, how buying a second-hand book, gives money to the author/publisher (as opposed to downloading) and therefore isn't 'stealing'.

Seems to me, to be exactly the same process.

Author/publisher lose a sale.

Edited October 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[isanbirder]

As I posted earlier, you don't need to buy a Kindle unless you want it for travelling. You download the app for free.

There are a number of sites for free books, but all the legal ones are out of copyright. The basic site is Gutenberg; for out-of-the-way titles, try www.archive.org (I think it's org, maybe net). There are several others.

I was told that a site called bittorrent has every book you could want. I downloaded it, and it kept invading any other site I opened. It took me a lot of trouble to uninstal, and still bits of it kept popping up. So be warned!

I don't really understand why there is all this kerfuffle about secondhand book prices being too high. The prices are what the market will pay. UG and his rivals are in the business to make profits; if they can't, they go out of business.... and then none of you will have anything to complain about. Oh sorry, you'll be bitching that you can't buy secondhand books any more.

[uptheos]

I don't really understand why there is all this kerfuffle about secondhand book prices being too high. The prices are what the market will pay. UG and his rivals are in the business to make profits; if they can't, they go out of business.... and then none of you will have anything to complain about. Oh sorry, you'll be bitching that you can't buy secondhand books any more.

I think Chiang Mai bookshops are GREAT..........we're so lucky!!

[Priceless]

I'm not saying that the prices that I quoted are typical or that my sample is, either. Obviously stealing is cheaper than buying, and if your interest lies in fiction of yesteryear you may well be able to easily find what your looking for, legally without charge.

Maybe you could explain to me, how buying a second-hand book, gives money to the author/publisher (as opposed to downloading) and therefore isn't 'stealing'.

Seems to me, to be exactly the same process.

Author/publisher lose a sale.

But the bookseller gets some revenue However, I was referring to your claim of getting books for free as opposed to buying them, in either paper or electronic format, from a source where the the author/publisher gets a share.

/ Priceless

[TommoPhysicist]

I'm not saying that the prices that I quoted are typical or that my sample is, either. Obviously stealing is cheaper than buying, and if your interest lies in fiction of yesteryear you may well be able to easily find what your looking for, legally without charge.

Maybe you could explain to me, how buying a second-hand book, gives money to the author/publisher (as opposed to downloading) and therefore isn't 'stealing'.

Seems to me, to be exactly the same process.

Author/publisher lose a sale.

But the bookseller gets some revenue However, I was referring to your claim of getting books for free as opposed to buying them, in either paper or electronic format, from a source where the the author/publisher gets a share.

/ Priceless

So what you are effectively claiming is .....

It's OK for a second-hand bookseller to 'steal' from an author/publisher, but not OK for a book reader to do the same.

Hmmmmmm ........... is that what you call logic?

Edited October 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Tywais]

Maybe you could explain to me, how buying a second-hand book, gives money to the author/publisher (as opposed to downloading) and therefore isn't 'stealing'.

So why is it that ever major university I've been to buys and sells 2nd hand text books. Hundreds of sites including major players Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. offer to buy/sell/rent 2nd hand books. Not to mention thousands of 2nd hand book stores legally operating throughout the western world. Haven't heard of any en-masse arrests and shutdowns yet.

[TommoPhysicist]

Maybe you could explain to me, how buying a second-hand book, gives money to the author/publisher (as opposed to downloading) and therefore isn't 'stealing'.

So why is it that ever major university I've been to buys and sells 2nd hand text books. Hundreds of sites including major players Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. offer to buy/sell/rent 2nd hand books. Not to mention thousands of 2nd hand book stores legally operating throughout the western world. Haven't heard of any en-masse arrests and shutdowns yet.

A good question Tywais!

I'm not claiming it's wrong (note use of 'stealing'), that was Priceless.

I would just like someone to explain to me how, a third party (aka SH bookseller) removing income from an author/publisher is OK. Yet an end-user (aka reader) doing effectively the same thing is morally (or legally) wrong.

I seem to remember a copyright notice along the lines of 'lending, redistribution or re-selling is prohibited by law' being printed in books.

Edited October 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Tywais]

A good question Tywais!

I'm not claiming it's wrong (note use of 'stealing'), that was Priceless.

I would just like someone to explain to me how, a third party (aka SH bookseller) removing income from an author/publisher is OK. Yet an end-user (aka reader) doing effectively the same thing is morally (or legally) wrong.

I seem to remember a copyright notice along the lines of 'lending, redistribution or re-selling is prohibited by law' being printed in books.

And the answer is - First Sale Doctrine The site says "deals primarily with US" but the EU courts recently have also passed it.

The first-sale doctrine plays an important role in copyright and trademark law by limiting certain rights of a copyright or trademark owner. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, gifting, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others). In trademark law, this same doctrine enables reselling of trademarked products after the trademark holder put the products on the market. The doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

[TommoPhysicist]

A good question Tywais!

I'm not claiming it's wrong (note use of 'stealing'), that was Priceless.

I would just like someone to explain to me how, a third party (aka SH bookseller) removing income from an author/publisher is OK. Yet an end-user (aka reader) doing effectively the same thing is morally (or legally) wrong.

I seem to remember a copyright notice along the lines of 'lending, redistribution or re-selling is prohibited by law' being printed in books.

And the answer is - First Sale Doctrine The site says "deals primarily with US" but the EU courts recently have also passed it.

The first-sale doctrine plays an important role in copyright and trademark law by limiting certain rights of a copyright or trademark owner. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, gifting, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others). In trademark law, this same doctrine enables reselling of trademarked products after the trademark holder put the products on the market. The doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

That doesn't really help me with the moral aspect of it all.

If I download from a pirate site or buy from a SH shop, it still seems to me that, for both cases, in reality I am depriving the author of their intellectual property rights. (in both cases the item was originally purchased by someone)

So if I'm going to 'steal', better to do it myself direct and not use a 'pimp'.

Edited October 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Priceless]

A good question Tywais!

I'm not claiming it's wrong (note use of 'stealing'), that was Priceless.

I would just like someone to explain to me how, a third party (aka SH bookseller) removing income from an author/publisher is OK. Yet an end-user (aka reader) doing effectively the same thing is morally (or legally) wrong.

I seem to remember a copyright notice along the lines of 'lending, redistribution or re-selling is prohibited by law' being printed in books.

And the answer is - First Sale Doctrine The site says "deals primarily with US" but the EU courts recently have also passed it.

The first-sale doctrine plays an important role in copyright and trademark law by limiting certain rights of a copyright or trademark owner. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, gifting, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others). In trademark law, this same doctrine enables reselling of trademarked products after the trademark holder put the products on the market. The doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

That doesn't really help me with the moral aspect of it all.

If I download from a pirate site or buy from a SH shop, it still seems to me that, for both cases, in reality I am depriving the author of their intellectual property rights. (in both cases the item was originally purchased by someone)

So if I'm going to 'steal', better to do it myself direct and not use a 'pimp'.

If you leave the 'moral aspect' out of it and look at the legal aspect, reselling a book in paper format is legal. Copying and reselling the same book in electronic format is not. Try following Tywais link to 'First Sale Doctrine' and you may understand the difference.

/ Priceless

[TommoPhysicist]

A good question Tywais!

I'm not claiming it's wrong (note use of 'stealing'), that was Priceless.

I would just like someone to explain to me how, a third party (aka SH bookseller) removing income from an author/publisher is OK. Yet an end-user (aka reader) doing effectively the same thing is morally (or legally) wrong.

I seem to remember a copyright notice along the lines of 'lending, redistribution or re-selling is prohibited by law' being printed in books.

And the answer is - First Sale Doctrine The site says "deals primarily with US" but the EU courts recently have also passed it.

The first-sale doctrine plays an important role in copyright and trademark law by limiting certain rights of a copyright or trademark owner. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, gifting, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others). In trademark law, this same doctrine enables reselling of trademarked products after the trademark holder put the products on the market. The doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

That doesn't really help me with the moral aspect of it all.

If I download from a pirate site or buy from a SH shop, it still seems to me that, for both cases, in reality I am depriving the author of their intellectual property rights. (in both cases the item was originally purchased by someone)

So if I'm going to 'steal', better to do it myself direct and not use a 'pimp'.

If you leave the 'moral aspect' out of it and look at the legal aspect, reselling a book in paper format is legal. Copying and reselling the same book in electronic format is not. Try following Tywais link to 'First Sale Doctrine' and you may understand the difference.

/ Priceless

Oh, I understand the legal difference, the big boys went as far as they could go with their corrupt payoffs to congressmen.

But the moral, difference ...... there is none.

[Tywais]

Oh, I understand the legal difference, the big boys went as far as they could go with their corrupt payoffs to congressmen.

They have congressmen in the EU? They also passed the same law.

[TommoPhysicist]

Oh, I understand the legal difference, the big boys went as far as they could go with their corrupt payoffs to congressmen.

They have congressmen in the EU? They also passed the same law.

The USA wields a big stick, few will refuse to bow down before it.