Cultural Diversity

[jbowman1993]

In reading posts here for the last 6 months, I have been impressed by many of the members, and their thoughtful insights into Thailand and life in this country.

But on the flip side, there seem to be a significant percentage who, while they choose to live in LOS, or they visit from time to time, have trouble accepting the cultural differences that present themselves. They instead prefer to hold every thought, idea, and item they encounter up to their "Western Standard". If they find that this doesn't fit perfectly, they feel the need to deride it, placing their cultural values above all others.

I believe that one of the challanges we all face in our ever changing and shrinking world, is to learn to develop a respect for our differences, even celebrate them. We are not all the same, and we don't all believe the same thing. We need to realize that this is a good thing! It is what makes our world such an interesting and wonderful place to live.

The United Nations has a wonderful website with great resources on this subject. (unesco.org)

The following is taken from that site.

Cultural Diversity is a fact

The World has some 6000 communities and as many distinct languages. Such difference naturally leads to diversity of vision, values, beliefs, practice and expression, which all deserve equal respect and dignity.

Cultural Diversity is our everyday reality

The international migration rate is growing fast every year. According to the “International Migration Report 2002” of the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, the number of migrants has doubled since the 1970s. The report also says that around 175 million persons are residing away from the country of their birth and one in every 10 persons in the developed regions is a migrant. Also, more migrants are coming from countries ever farther away. While the reasons for migration vary (economic, political, personal choice …) , one thing is sure: we live in an increasingly heterogeneous society.

Cultural Diversity reflects the respect of fundamental rights

Culture is a set of distinctive spiritual, material, intellectual and emotional features of society or a social group. It encompasses, in addition to art and literature, lifestyles, ways of living together, values systems, traditions and beliefs. Respecting and safeguarding culture is a matter of Human Rights. Cultural Diversity presupposes respect of fundamental freedoms, namely freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom of opinion and expression, and freedom to participate in the cultural life of one's choice.

Cultural Diversity is our collective strength

The Johannesburg Declaration on Sustainable Development (September 2002) acknowledges that our rich diversity, which is our collective strength, should be used to ensure sustainable development. Cultural Diversity, indeed, is not just a natural fact that we need simply recognize and respect. It is about plurality of knowledge, wisdom and energy which all contribute to improving and moving the World forward.

(Stepping down from soapbox) Peace.

[Morden]

Very well put!

I fail to understand why there are, apparently, so many members living in Thailand who deride much about it's culture and customs. Some posts leave me wondering why these folk don't just pack up and go back whence they came.

There's much for a Westerner to learn and understand and it can be frustrating at times. However, if we take the trouble, life there can be enjoyable and rewarding. Most Thais may still be materially poor but they are rich in values that are becoming lost to the West and we can gain much if we make the effort. Thailand is a real place with real people, not a cheap playground for foreigners with some money.

There is, I fear, a real possibility that Thais, in pursuit of their desire for Western lifestyles, will make the same mistake as the West and lose sight of their traditional values. That would be a great pity and a disappointment to the foreigners who do enjoy what Thailand has to offer.

[steveromagnino]

well put.

It is not just Thailand; many would have us believe that all of Asia with its homogenous culture of a mere 2b+ people are exactly the same....and we are immature to boot! Witness the kind wisdom of this post!

Asians would loose face by admitting they are wrong or they don't know the answer to something.

In the West, most (not all) can admit their mistakes and learn from them, and accept if they are wrong.

We call it maturity.

Ironic really, since the biggest idiots I meet with the most arrogance known to man seem to be from a variety of countries, with a variety of skin colours and even both genders... however my powers of observation must be very poor given that I am so immature compared to my far superior western colleagues.

Thank you masser for your edukachun, missa Steve so gratephul masser :-)

[Phil Conners]

Welcome to 2006 and globalization. Get used to it.

[sadman]

I agree with what's been said thus far, but would only point out that diversity is the antithesis of homogeneity, so we shouldn't be surprised when we are greatly different to those from other cultures. Perhaps the greatest beauty and benefit of diversity is living side by side with other cultures, respecting and enjoying them, and learning from each other in peace.

Vive la difference!

[robitusson]

Very well put!

I fail to understand why there are, apparently, so many members living in Thailand who deride much about it's culture and customs. Some posts leave me wondering why these folk don't just pack up and go back whence they came.

There's much for a Westerner to learn and understand and it can be frustrating at times. However, if we take the trouble, life there can be enjoyable and rewarding. Most Thais may still be materially poor but they are rich in values that are becoming lost to the West and we can gain much if we make the effort. Thailand is a real place with real people, not a cheap playground for foreigners with some money.

There is, I fear, a real possibility that Thais, in pursuit of their desire for Western lifestyles, will make the same mistake as the West and lose sight of their traditional values. That would be a great pity and a disappointment to the foreigners who do enjoy what Thailand has to offer.

Surely the moaners and gripers only add to the rich tapestry of diversity you espouse.

[OldAsiaHand]

Surely the moaners and gripers only add to the rich tapestry of diversity you espouse.

Probably not. The morally self-righteous tend to speak well of diversity only when it diversifies in a direction they endorse as socially commendable. That's why the I-am-more-Thai-than-thou crowd keep coming out with lame-brained lines like: 'Why don't these people just pack up aand go back whence they came?'

Gee, and lose all the good laughs I get out of watching the 'Thais who are materially poor but rich in values'? Oh dear. That's a good one right there.

[Sheryl]

If the moaning/griping truly has a self-righteous tone then I would agree that it's misguided. But in defense of a lot of the seeming complaints you find on this forum, one of the things this forum provides for many folk is a chance to vent and express criticisms which cannot be expressed to a Thai or in presence of Thais.

I love Thailand, but I very quickly learned not to say anything that might be remotely construed as critical about any aspect of it in the presence of Thais...and that many Thais demand a constant stream of praise about their country from foreign visitors. You know, the old "How do you like Thailand?"conversation one has countless times verbatim. It gets tiring and it is nice to have this forum as a place to be able to critically analyze or just plain gripe without anyone being offended or having it misconstrued as an attack on the country.

We're all here because we choose to be, so we must all think that on the balance it's better here than wherever we came from. But that doesn't mean it's perfect or that we like everything about it.

Look at it this way -- some of the whining you see may be what allows the poster to NOT whine or complain to the Thais around him or her...and as such, is a steam valve that contributes to inter-cultural harmony.

[Ulysses G.]

Look at it this way -- some of the whining you see may be what allows the poster to NOT whine or complain to the Thais around him or her...and as such, is a steam valve that contributes to inter-cultural harmony.

[robitusson]

Surely the moaners and gripers only add to the rich tapestry of diversity you espouse.

Probably not. The morally self-righteous tend to speak well of diversity only when it diversifies in a direction they endorse as socially commendable. That's why the I-am-more-Thai-than-thou crowd keep coming out with lame-brained lines like: 'Why don't these people just pack up aand go back whence they came?'

Gee, and lose all the good laughs I get out of watching the 'Thais who are materially poor but rich in values'? Oh dear. That's a good one right there.

Hear, hear.

[Heng]

Much better to have people moan and whinge than to actually get organized and hold rallies, clog up traffic, mess with ballroom/convention hall scheduling, etc.

[chownah]

I think that being intolerant of other cultures is something that is learned in ones own culture.....as such it is a cultural trait....and....in the spirit of the original post I think it would be good if we could all learn to appreciate this cultural trait of intolerance and realize that it is part of the rich variety of expression of cultural values. Stepping down from soapbox.....hahahahahhahahahhha

[jbowman1993]

Thanks for the good points. There are many insightful comments floating around TV. I learn a lot every single day!

And Chownah, i respect and am tolerant of your attempted irony.

[suegha]

I call it the 3 Rs. Rights, respect and responsibility.

The right we all have to be different/hold different beliefs and to have them respected. The responsibility that comes with accepting the first 2 Rs for ouselves, is to respect the rights of others equally.

I guess it's called 'balanced behaviour'.

[chownah]

Thanks for the good points. There are many insightful comments floating around TV. I learn a lot every single day!

And Chownah, i respect and am tolerant of your attempted irony.

Yeah, but do you really understand that intolerance IS a cultural trait and IS part of the diversity of cultures that you are exalting?

[suegha]

Thanks for the good points. There are many insightful comments floating around TV. I learn a lot every single day!

And Chownah, i respect and am tolerant of your attempted irony.

Yeah, but do you really understand that intolerance IS a cultural trait and IS part of the diversity of cultures that you are exalting?

Surely not exalting!

[chownah]

Thanks for the good points. There are many insightful comments floating around TV. I learn a lot every single day!

And Chownah, i respect and am tolerant of your attempted irony.

Yeah, but do you really understand that intolerance IS a cultural trait and IS part of the diversity of cultures that you are exalting?

Surely not exalting!

Well.....I think exalting.....maybe exalting.....would you accept "waxing poetic"?

[suegha]

Thanks for the good points. There are many insightful comments floating around TV. I learn a lot every single day!

And Chownah, i respect and am tolerant of your attempted irony.

Yeah, but do you really understand that intolerance IS a cultural trait and IS part of the diversity of cultures that you are exalting?

Surely not exalting!

Well.....I think exalting.....maybe exalting.....would you accept "waxing poetic"?

Waxing lyrically, perhaps?

[jamman]

I think that being intolerant of other cultures is something that is learned in ones own culture.....as such it is a cultural trait....and....in the spirit of the original post I think it would be good if we could all learn to appreciate this cultural trait of intolerance and realize that it is part of the rich variety of expression of cultural values. Stepping down from soapbox.....hahahahahhahahahhha

Brilliantly and succinctly put.

Those who take a multiculturalist view blind themselves to the indisputable fact that in many cultures, the norm is ethnocentric, not multicultural. So if we are to embrace the validity of all cultures, we have to embrace also the validity of Nazism. As you clearly point out, it's a silly view - because it clearly states that being multicultural is better than being ethnocentric, but to be truly multicultural, you have to pretend that being ethnocentric is also just as good a cultural construct as any other.

I'm calling Bullshit. There is nothing wrong about taking a viewpoint and expressing it. Being accepting and curious about others is better than excluding others based on unfounded prejudice, which means that cultures with lots of unfounded prejudice are worse than cultures without. It's not all equal, and making judgments isn't bad; making ill informed judgments is bad.

The empathetic multiculturalist will exhort you to embrace all cultures, forgetting that many cultures are xenophobic and may stone you for disagreeing with their God. How do you embrace that? What on earth does that mean? My ex girlfriend is always going on about me “understanding her”. She seems to think that if I understand her enough, I’ll also simply agree with her. She doesn’t get that I can both understand her and disagree. I can understand her, and criticize. So for individual differences, so for cultural differences.

Realizing that truth is relative doesn't have to cause a full frontal lobotamy - we can still talk cross culturally and diss each other. Truth is not 100% socially constructed, and if it were, then that too would be a social construction, and the logic would be circular, and therefore meaningless.

Edited February 2, 2006 by jamman

[thaibebop]

I agree with the OP, however, and forgive me if someone said this, I feel that singling out western people to practice such concepts is in itself defeating these concepts. Every culture should be mindful of other cultures, not just us from the west.

[Morden]

I agree with the OP, however, and forgive me if someone said this, I feel that singling out western people to practice such concepts is in itself defeating these concepts. Every culture should be mindful of other cultures, not just us from the west.

Quite right - and current events in the Middle East serve to show what damage can be done by a lack of tolerance and understanding on all sides. However, I think that the OP was concerned in this instance only with Thailand and the difficulty that some tv members seem to have in accepting that they live in a culture other than the Western one in which they were brought up. The fact is that Thailand does not need to change its ways to accommodate foreign values, or rather the foreign values of a few who don't like it. So, like it or lump it, take it or leave it, 'This Is Thailand'.

I regret signs that Thais will make the same mistakes as the West in their rush for material gain. I meet some very happy poor people in Thailand and some rather miserable wealthier ones in the UK and elsewhere.

[robitusson]

I agree with the OP, however, and forgive me if someone said this, I feel that singling out western people to practice such concepts is in itself defeating these concepts. Every culture should be mindful of other cultures, not just us from the west.

Quite right - and current events in the Middle East serve to show what damage can be done by a lack of tolerance and understanding on all sides. However, I think that the OP was concerned in this instance only with Thailand and the difficulty that some tv members seem to have in accepting that they live in a culture other than the Western one in which they were brought up. The fact is that Thailand does not need to change its ways to accommodate foreign values, or rather the foreign values of a few who don't like it. So, like it or lump it, take it or leave it, 'This Is Thailand'.

I regret signs that Thais will make the same mistakes as the West in their rush for material gain. I meet some very happy poor people in Thailand and some rather miserable wealthier ones in the UK and elsewhere.

If Thailand doesn't want to make any economic progress and wants to culturally stagnate then there is no need to change to accomodate foreign values. It is impossible for any country or culture anywhere to stay the same. Thailand is changing anyway regardless of whether people like it or not. The "this is Thailand" attitude might serve well if you are living here as an individual who happens to be a foreigner but it has very serious consequences for the Thai people themselves. Acceptance of outdated and counter-productive systems causes no end of problems for this country. It is obviously totally up to them but Thailand is changing to include foreign customs and values anyway so they would do well to make an active choice about which ones they want and which they don't.

[autonomous_unit]

The right we all have to be different/hold different beliefs and to have them respected. The responsibility that comes with accepting the first 2 Rs for ouselves, is to respect the rights of others equally.

I hope I am misreading your first sentence... it seems inconsistent with the rest of the post. We have a right to be different and hold different beliefs, and I respect that right for others (and expect others to respect my right). However, this respect implies that our beliefs/differences are tolerated and not necessarily accepted. This difference between tolerance and acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists.

As a moderate fan of diversity, I think you are free to believe backwards things if you want, and I am free to think you're full of it. I'm also free to express my belief that you are full of it (and you are free to debate your point of view)... something has gone horribly wrong when we pretend that everything is right and immune from criticism.

Getting back to the west vs. east tone of this thread, there is a separate notion to "values" beyond this core bit about rights and tolerance. Values are also about relative priority of different rights etc. A value of mine, which often gets painted as a "western" value is that I favor discourse over harmony. Where I come from, I can be a guest in a persons home and tell them I think they are full of it. I consider among my friends those people who didn't kick me to the curb the first time I did that. My friends often aren't those people who agree with me, but those people who can tolerate my disagreement, who can respect that my ideas are at least "interesting" sometimes, and who will debate without turning into an emotional wreck.

As such, it is hard for me to respect a very harmony-based or nationalistic attitude where not only shouldn't one speak his mind in another's home, but he shouldn't even speak his mind in another's country! I realize others feel this way, and I tolerate it where I need to. But on principle, I don't think others have a right to unopposed harmony any more than I have a right to speak my dissent.

[mogoso]

Accepting or not accepting it don't matter. In 50 years most will be bowing to the east with no tolerance for anything not Islamic. Diverse, hardly, accepting, not at all.

[suegha]

The right we all have to be different/hold different beliefs and to have them respected. The responsibility that comes with accepting the first 2 Rs for ouselves, is to respect the rights of others equally.

I hope I am misreading your first sentence... it seems inconsistent with the rest of the post. We have a right to be different and hold different beliefs, and I respect that right for others (and expect others to respect my right). However, this respect implies that our beliefs/differences are tolerated and not necessarily accepted. This difference between tolerance and acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists.

No, you are not misreading my first sentence, maybe I havn't made myself clear.

Let's clear the decks, don't use any specifics and just deal with the matter at hand, so no East v West, or whatever. First guideline, we are only responsible for our own behaviour!

For 'you' insert your name if you prefer...

You have the right to be treated with respect. You have the right to have and to hold different ideas and opinions to other pepole and to have those different ideas and beliefs repected.

You see, I disagree with the statement:

" This difference between tolerance and acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists."

I don't think that toleration or acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists, this is, in my opinion, way too simple an explanation.

However, I can still respect your right to hold that view and we can agree to differ without falling out over it. The 'nub' is respect. And I'll say again to close. we are only responsible for our own behaviour!

[autonomous_unit]

...

You have the right to be treated with respect. You have the right to have and to hold different ideas and opinions to other pepole and to have those different ideas and beliefs repected.

You see, I disagree with the statement:

" This difference between tolerance and acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists."

I don't think that toleration or acceptance is what separates the moderates from the extremists, this is, in my opinion, way too simple an explanation.

...

I think I just have a different definition of "respect" than you are using, and am not getting your point. To me, people can be respected but not ideas/beliefs. I think ideas can only be accepted or rejected or deferred for a later decision. To imagine "respecting an idea", I have to mentally redefine respect as "accept". However, to respect the person, I merely have to tolerate the presence of his ideas, i.e. accept that his may differ from mine. I do not have to accept these ideas as true.

To try to be concrete: let's say that you and I have differing views on science or spirituality. We could respect each other as individuals with free will and personally held beliefs, but if we really have contradictory beliefs, we cannot "respect" (accept as true) the other person's belief. I cannot live my life as if your beliefs are true without violating my own beliefs, and vice versa. But I can respect your living your life according to your own beliefs, to a point. I think this is consistent with what you mean by being responsible only for your own behavior, so I think this is mostly an issue of vocabulary? A separate issue of "respect" is politeness, i.e. where do you draw the lines between disrespectful punk, respectful gentleman, and sycophant? I don't really want to go there more than I did already...

Also, we cannot truly separate our behavior from others as long as we live in a closed system. The only way you can truly be responsible to your own behavior and tolerate all other's behavior is if you are an anarcho-capitalist who really thinks might makes right and you get whatever you get. As soon as you accept some responsibility to prevent "bad" actions by others, you have put limits on others' freedoms, and limits to how you will allow them to live their lives.

I think an extremist is just someone who has a set of core beliefs that is "too different" (whether too permissive or too restrictive) for most of us to accept as societal rules, and he believes all people should live by them. To have a stable and diverse society, we must accept a common core set of rights and responsibilities while tolerating differences which do not violate those core rights and responsibilities. The less diversity we seek to embrace, the less we have to worry about distinguishing the core beliefs from those where one is free to differ.

[kat]

This is an excellent, and often rehashed discussion, but I thank the OP for starting it again.

well put.

It is not just Thailand; many would have us believe that all of Asia with its homogenous culture of a mere 2b+ people are exactly the same....and we are immature to boot! Witness the kind wisdom of this post!

Asians would loose face by admitting they are wrong or they don't know the answer to something.

In the West, most (not all) can admit their mistakes and learn from them, and accept if they are wrong.

We call it maturity.

Ironic really, since the biggest idiots I meet with the most arrogance known to man seem to be from a variety of countries, with a variety of skin colours and even both genders... however my powers of observation must be very poor given that I am so immature compared to my far superior western colleagues.

Thank you masser for your edukachun, missa Steve so gratephul masser :-)

Steve, I've had the good fortune to meet a variety of idiots from a diverse selection of countries as well! Most importantly, I've also met some of the smartest people of my life from different segments of the states, different countries, and sometimes even different point of views. I actually like when someone can change my mind about something, but with informed discussion, reason, facts, and better points, not with emotional or nationalistic intimidation. That is a cheap way of changing the discussion, without changing anything else.

I am from a diverse background myself, and had absolutely no preconceived ideas about Thailand or Asia, except for the most mundane and esoteric (Bangkok is slowly sinking, due to a naturally moist soil underneath, and the fact that underground aquifers are being depleted -- urban planning).

In fact, I was more than ready to believe and uphold the most ideal images of both Thailand and Asia. And yes, of course I hear your point that Asian countries have their own respective cultures, but you seem to be denying on this thread and another that there is no such thing as Asian values. It is a futile exercise to even have a discussion in the face of these kind of nonsensical statements. There are different countries of the West, but there most certainly are definite Western values. And by the way, as you sardonically pose the 'yes massas' as an Asian male to someone else's post, I am most reminded of how Western you really are in thought, argument, culture, and most likely education than you care to admit.

Now, to my main question, your point about assumed Western superiority is well taken, but are we not permitted to ask the question - or rather: Are you denying that part of face in Asian culture means not admitting you are wrong, and that this is a demonstrated weakness in the development of these societies?

Surely the moaners and gripers only add to the rich tapestry of diversity you espouse.

Probably not. The morally self-righteous tend to speak well of diversity only when it diversifies in a direction they endorse as socially commendable. That's why the I-am-more-Thai-than-thou crowd keep coming out with lame-brained lines like: 'Why don't these people just pack up aand go back whence they came?'

Gee, and lose all the good laughs I get out of watching the 'Thais who are materially poor but rich in values'? Oh dear. That's a good one right there.

Well put. In my view, it is a patronizing and condescending attitude to paint Thais or anyone else as happy, quaint, smiling, "traditional" brown people. Do you actually KNOW some of those traditions, or did all moral corruption supposedly stem from the West -- give me a break.

The "traditional, happy brown people" approach does not accord the same complexity to them as anywhere else and is tantamount to reducing them into the more palatable but equally racist "noble savages." It depicts a very low expectation of your hosts, in my view.

If the moaning/griping truly has a self-righteous tone then I would agree that it's misguided. But in defense of a lot of the seeming complaints you find on this forum, one of the things this forum provides for many folk is a chance to vent and express criticisms which cannot be expressed to a Thai or in presence of Thais.

I love Thailand, but I very quickly learned not to say anything that might be remotely construed as critical about any aspect of it in the presence of Thais...and that many Thais demand a constant stream of praise about their country from foreign visitors. You know, the old "How do you like Thailand?"conversation one has countless times verbatim. It gets tiring and it is nice to have this forum as a place to be able to critically analyze or just plain gripe without anyone being offended or having it misconstrued as an attack on the country.

We're all here because we choose to be, so we must all think that on the balance it's better here than wherever we came from. But that doesn't mean it's perfect or that we like everything about it.

Look at it this way -- some of the whining you see may be what allows the poster to NOT whine or complain to the Thais around him or her...and as such, is a steam valve that contributes to inter-cultural harmony.

Precisely. I came to this forum when I found out I could not have an honest, critical, political discussion with the majority of even educated Thais, as I could with almost anyone else, from anywhere else.

Thanks for the good points. There are many insightful comments floating around TV. I learn a lot every single day!

And Chownah, i respect and am tolerant of your attempted irony.

Yeah, but do you really understand that intolerance IS a cultural trait and IS part of the diversity of cultures that you are exalting?

Enough said. Thanks Chownah for stating it so succinctly.

*edit - I'm in italics

Edited February 3, 2006 by kat

[Ijustwannateach]

I think a biological metaphor is helpful. You can put just so many animals in the terrarium before some of them will be incompatible with the rest. Eventually some of them must die. If you were the central keeper of this system, you'd probably want to preserve as many and as interesting a variety as possible.

As the cultural world grows "smaller" from mass media and greater tourism, there will be some cultural elements which will generally grow unacceptable to most cultures- for example, female genital mutilation, slavery, or religious intolerance of certain types.

I think that the challenge of multiculturalism is to find as much common ground as possible before beginning the process of elimination of practices that simply will not be tolerated by the majority any more. This *will* be a prejudicial and contingent process- there will be no way to "prove" that women should not be stoned for committing adultery, or that prisoners should not be tortured or held without due process or trial. However, these activities will eventually be suppressed and criminalised, even among the barbaric countries which still practice them now. In saying "barbaric," I am making a values statement which is contingent on my own beliefs- and there is no way to prove that I am right- but I think I can live with that.

"Steven"

[steveromagnino]

>>Now, to my main question, your point about assumed Western superiority is well taken, but are we not permitted to ask the question - or rather: Are you denying that part of face in Asian culture means not admitting you are wrong, and that this is a demonstrated weakness in the development of these societies?

Based on my knowledge (very limited) of Indian culture, I cannot guess as to how they view face; as I am sure you are aware they are widely considered to be 'Asian' as well. Furthermore, I cannot really guess as to what are so called 'western' or 'Asian' values, because this concept of 'western' tends to be a group which I really know entirely, for instance the East Europeans are presumably part of this group, and yet the Russians and Croatians I have met have often tended to be very different in their opinions to say, Americans.....

But that is by the by, on to your question, do I believe that there is a tendency within Asian culture to place great value on 'face'?

Within Thailand, Japan, Korea and China (which is a fair chunk of the SE/Eastern Asian group) I would say in general yes, admitting you are wrong publically loses face, and shows fallibility, this is a potential weakness of face. I think the bigger loss is the risk of saying something that could be wrong and thus not saying it rather than the later being wrong and not being willing to change.

Within the concept of face, it is not so much admitting doing something wrong, but avoiding the conflict of discussing someone's failure. Therefore, I would postulate that if someone is actually wrong, then someone who handled the situation correctly would try to allow the person to see what they did is wrong, without causing them to lose face by confronting them about it directly. Thus the conflict resolution in the west might be a more direct confrontation; whereas in the countries named above, to ensure that either side did not lose face, it would more likely be solved through some sort of avoidance. It isn't the fact that they are right or wrong; it is how to extracate them from the situation of being wrong and allow them the ability to change their path without losing face.

Would that necessarily fix the problem? If handled correctly, then yes. If just avoided (which is easier) then no. And that is a definite weakness of the face system, it can encourage avoidance and thus nothing gets solved.

However, on the flip side, I can give the example of handling to avoid losing face... e.g. at a recent function (charity event) I had to stocktake the liquor not used at the end. Based on the usage figures, and based on the bottles accounted for, I knew one case was missing. The police overseeing the event were probably the ones causing it.

Not caring for face, I could yell and demand everyone open their bags, cars and so on. instead, I handled it through taking the party I knew for sure would not have taken it, the caterer, and explained loud enough for everyone to hear that I thought they must have accidently picked up the case, and therefore, I would need them to unload the truck, so I could see if that was the case, given that this was a 1000 person event, the truck was very full! In the meantime, I asked my staff to move all the accounted for cases to an office out of my line of sight. Not surprisingly, when I didn't discover the case in the truck, it had reappeared in the office. I think I knew who took it. They knew I gave them a chance to fix their mistake without losing face. Everyone was happy and the end of story. Now, some people would argue that I should have just yelled and screamed, but my approach got the solution in a way that the police (if it was them) will be keen enough to work together again, and I need them to do that. They knew they were wrong, and the path was opened to allow them to change without losing face. Important, since I deal with them a lot, and need their support.

I think some foreigners here particularly from the west, can sometimes adopt the one moment friendly to everyone, next moment something goes wrong and all yelling and screaming, then back to even keeled the next. I even see it in myself (and I am the first to admit I look at Thailand much like an outsider looking in, and I feel exactly the same in New Zealand even though that was where I was born) sometimes. With a cultural divide, a language divide and often because the foreigner is the boss, this creates some large gaps, with the Thai staff more scared of the conflict resulting from their action (or lack of) and thus blaming not doing things on face or 'greng jai' start to appear, when in fact it is more a case of terror at what the boss might do and a desire to avoid conflict than anything else.

So why have it? When you have a bunch of people living side by side for long periods in confined space, then avoiding conflict is important. Thus the need for people to be polite and avoid saying how they feel is one aspect. The other is that Thailand has had (for a while) like many other countries a class system, and the two go hand in hand. the phoo yai and respect for the phoo yai is partly one of face, and partly one of class. Kat, you are from America where there is probably less of a class system than most places; I suspect (but cannot confirm) that parts of a class system still survive in parts of the UK; they certainly are well entrenched here in parts of Asia. I like the concept of face far more than the concept of seniority and class. And I think they are related, but not the same.

There are many ways to get someone to change without making them admit point blank that they are wrong. I know tons and tons of people of all colours that simply cannot admit they are wrong. That's not unique to 'Asia'. I'll certainly say that it is more prevalent, and with face the more someone is pushed, the more likely they are not to change their publically stated opinion, when it comes to face. The breakthrough for face comes when you realise that the action is more important than the statement; and that getting someone to admit verbally they are wrong is not nearly as important as finding a compromise (another way to resolve conflict besides confrontation and avoidance) that allows a solution without the possible 'heat' of confrontation or the frustration of avoidance.

The problem of admitting wrong, is that for public authorities, words must be chosen carefully, and things come back to haunt. Since everything becomes public, it can lead people on a path to ruin if they are pushed to admit they are wrong, and then have the power to stay resolute in their wrong actions. That is a definite weakness. But I just don't buy that it is a 'western' concept to easily admit that we are wrong; I know we'd like to believe that, but Vietnam war, Enron and numerous other examples indicate to me that there are plenty of people out there who simply cannot see or admit they are ever wrong, no matter what their skin colour.

Another negative effect of 'face' is therefore that it can threaten the somewhat argumentative style of debating pros and cons, and this restricts free thought and the development of ideas. That said, we have nil problem with that here in our company, and I have had decent debates with all the Thai clients I work with. But it is within the boundaries of ensuring people don't lose face; and we are all friends afterwards. However, I think this is a potential weakness of the 'face' approach.

Having been phsyically assaulted, had my car vandalised and being abused with threats all ; all in the aim of conflict resolution within business in the 'west', some aspects of face and respecting 'face' are kind of nice; some aspects are frustrating! I'd also say that regarding 'face' with fights, I have been in far fewer fights here in Thailand (and seen far fewer) despite this aspect of 'face' compared to a western country.

There...you must be almost asleep after reading this much rubbish on one word?>! Well, i hope it makes sense to you, even though you may not agree

[Jim 50]

Very well put!

I fail to understand why there are, apparently, so many members living in Thailand who deride much about it's culture and customs. Some posts leave me wondering why these folk don't just pack up and go back whence they came.

There's much for a Westerner to learn and understand and it can be frustrating at times. However, if we take the trouble, life there can be enjoyable and rewarding. Most Thais may still be materially poor but they are rich in values that are becoming lost to the West and we can gain much if we make the effort. Thailand is a real place with real people, not a cheap playground for foreigners with some money.

There is, I fear, a real possibility that Thais, in pursuit of their desire for Western lifestyles, will make the same mistake as the West and lose sight of their traditional values. That would be a great pity and a disappointment to the foreigners who do enjoy what Thailand has to offer.

What values are you talking about? I see Thailand more like a carnival country with little or no value system.

People go to Thailand because it is cheap with warm weather. In the summer months most western people do not go to Thailand as Thailand has so little to offer.

If you have very little money and limited intellectual curiosity Thailand is a good option IMHO.

Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.