Thailand Is #2 Place To Live And Work For Wealthy Expats: 100 Country Survey

[sunshine51]

I'm an expat in Singapore, and I can see how it would appeal to some, especially if money is not an issue. But the place doesn't have much 'soul', and they're killing more of it each year in their bid to turn it into an upscale disneyland. There used to be dirtier, edgier places here where things went on that you wouldn't want your mother to know about. But those places are being squeezed out by shiny new shopping malls and condos. So yeah, a great place if your priorities are on efficiency, predictability, cleanliness, safety, education, air conditioning, being able to speak English with people, and shopping for branded goods. Some of these things I appreciate too. But I find that I'm much happier when I go to Thailand (usually Isaan) where there is a rich culture and more warmth and openness to foreigners... and where my money goes so much further.

Have the Sing Gov't. killed Gaylang Road yet? Seriously?

I spent some time with #13 out of the third "house" on the

right side just down the road from an all night eatery. Worth

every penny #13 was...hah!

[Kananga]

I'm an expat in Singapore, and I can see how it would appeal to some, especially if money is not an issue. But the place doesn't have much 'soul', and they're killing more of it each year in their bid to turn it into an upscale disneyland. There used to be dirtier, edgier places here where things went on that you wouldn't want your mother to know about. But those places are being squeezed out by shiny new shopping malls and condos. So yeah, a great place if your priorities are on efficiency, predictability, cleanliness, safety, education, air conditioning, being able to speak English with people, and shopping for branded goods. Some of these things I appreciate too. But I find that I'm much happier when I go to Thailand (usually Isaan) where there is a rich culture and more warmth and openness to foreigners... and where my money goes so much further.

Have the Sing Gov't. killed Gaylang Road yet? Seriously?

I spent some time with #13 out of the third "house" on the

right side just down the road from an all night eatery. Worth

every penny #13 was...hah!

Geylang will always be there. Did you know that Singapore had twice as many rapes reported as Hong Kong last year? No, probably not as its not something a State controlled media will publicise, but if there wasn't these legalised prostitution hotspots in Singapore you can certainly expect that rape statistic to rise.

[sunshine51]

I'm an expat in Singapore, and I can see how it would appeal to some, especially if money is not an issue. But the place doesn't have much 'soul', and they're killing more of it each year in their bid to turn it into an upscale disneyland. There used to be dirtier, edgier places here where things went on that you wouldn't want your mother to know about. But those places are being squeezed out by shiny new shopping malls and condos. So yeah, a great place if your priorities are on efficiency, predictability, cleanliness, safety, education, air conditioning, being able to speak English with people, and shopping for branded goods. Some of these things I appreciate too. But I find that I'm much happier when I go to Thailand (usually Isaan) where there is a rich culture and more warmth and openness to foreigners... and where my money goes so much further.

Have the Sing Gov't. killed Gaylang Road yet? Seriously?

I spent some time with #13 out of the third "house" on the

right side just down the road from an all night eatery. Worth

every penny #13 was...hah!

Geylang will always be there. Did you know that Singapore had twice as many rapes reported as Hong Kong last year? No, probably not as its not something a State controlled media will publicise, but if there wasn't these legalised prostitution hotspots in Singapore you can certainly expect that rape statistic to rise.

Thanks Kananga...I kinda hoped it would still be around...sort of like the family's

black sheep...or auntie that's a bit bent...or whatever one wants to use to analogise

the place. I also remember when Bugis Centre was not a centre per se but a street

named Bugis Street.....crazy place in it's day and loads of fun. Cheers....

[hellodolly]

It's no wonder expats earn more in Singapore - you have to to survive! Cost of living in Singapore is very high compared to other countries.

I find it hard to believe when I compared Canada to China that Canada was 21st and China was11th. I wonder if they were including Hong Kong in with China.

Two conflicting reports one said more disposable income after they moved there the other just said they had more disposable income. I wonder if that was after they bought the house and other necessities.Just Curios.

[Andre0720]

Like This

lothda

Today, 20:02

You not wealthy if you still have to work

Not so.

I know many many people who prefer to accumulate more money, and die rich, rather than to enjoy life. Seems like I will never understand their definition of enjoyment.

[gerry1011]

Quite surprising ? Obviously the HSBC wealthy customers do not post in this forum. Or, the other way around, the grumpy posters of this forums are not among the wealthy expats who were surveyed in this forum.

Obviously, yes

[hellodolly]

I lived in Singapore for 8 years and saw many changes over that time, and not many for the better. 2004 must have been the country's peak. Good infrastructure, not too expensive, government starting to release its parental grip on the nation etc. Then it all started going downhill rapidly from 06 onwards. Rampant inflation, swelling population, old buildings with character systematically destroyed, growing anti foreigner sentiment from locals (although I always remind them when they direct it at me that if they could do the jobs themselves we would gladly leave).

I moved there on a low salary (by Singapore standards) and by the time I left I tripled my salary, had the car and housing allowance, club membership (which I never used) etc and I was still less happy than when I first arrived.

Soul destroying doesn't even come close to describing living in Singapore. There is no homegrown talent or culture worth noticing, everything is imported, from the music, to the clothing fashion etc. There is little in the way of places to take kids and anywhere interesting is overrun on weekends by swarms of locals with no sense of direction and their spoilt little emperor kids. As a result I know people who live in little ex-pat bubbles and have never seen anything of the country despite having lived there for a number of years.

HSBC did a similar survey several years ago ago and while Singapore ranked high for safety, infrastructure it ranked 18th for interaction with the locals. About 14 places lower than Thailand. When you consider that the majority of Singaporeans are well educated and speak good English, something just doesn't add up there. Although when the majority of women would spend $3000 on a handbag and not get their teeth fixed, or men will show off their rolex while wearing cheap shoes and nylon trousers is it really to be expected?

For somewhere the government paints as a sort of utopia, a Switzerland of the East, it still amazes me how the majority of people who spend any time there come to hate the place once they wake up and see it for what it really is. A small, overpriced, arrogant, fake soul destroying, superficial expat posting on a downward spiral.

Thanks Kananga for the inside of living there. I think a lot of it could be age related. It would seem the younger people have lost the spark for life. They are content to just sit back and play a game on their what ever electronic device they have. Even here in Thailand a lot of expats have lost that sense of adventure and now instead of getting out and enjoying the culture they sit at home and complain about what they see as wrong. Generally what they see as wrong is some thing they saw as wrong in 50 miles the other side of bum <deleted> where they came from.

I noticed the survey was all about money. No Soul

[Docno]

I lived in Singapore for 8 years and saw many changes over that time, and not many for the better. 2004 must have been the country's peak. Good infrastructure, not too expensive, government starting to release its parental grip on the nation etc. Then it all started going downhill rapidly from 06 onwards. Rampant inflation, swelling population, old buildings with character systematically destroyed, growing anti foreigner sentiment from locals (although I always remind them when they direct it at me that if they could do the jobs themselves we would gladly leave).

I moved there on a low salary (by Singapore standards) and by the time I left I tripled my salary, had the car and housing allowance, club membership (which I never used) etc and I was still less happy than when I first arrived.

Soul destroying doesn't even come close to describing living in Singapore. There is no homegrown talent or culture worth noticing, everything is imported, from the music, to the clothing fashion etc. There is little in the way of places to take kids and anywhere interesting is overrun on weekends by swarms of locals with no sense of direction and their spoilt little emperor kids. As a result I know people who live in little ex-pat bubbles and have never seen anything of the country despite having lived there for a number of years.

HSBC did a similar survey several years ago ago and while Singapore ranked high for safety, infrastructure it ranked 18th for interaction with the locals. About 14 places lower than Thailand. When you consider that the majority of Singaporeans are well educated and speak good English, something just doesn't add up there. Although when the majority of women would spend $3000 on a handbag and not get their teeth fixed, or men will show off their rolex while wearing cheap shoes and nylon trousers is it really to be expected?

For somewhere the government paints as a sort of utopia, a Switzerland of the East, it still amazes me how the majority of people who spend any time there come to hate the place once they wake up and see it for what it really is. A small, overpriced, arrogant, fake soul destroying, superficial expat posting on a downward spiral.

Agree with most of your analysis, not all, but that's down to personal preferences. I agree that there was a tipping point here about 5 or 6 years ago, and it's been downhill ever since (at least for those of us who prefer the cultural richness that often goes along with messier more chaotic places). When I think of Singapore, the words that come to mind are 'sterile' and 'soulness'. I know a lot of Singaporeans who would agree ... this place actually had some real life in the past. But they decided they wanted to do it Dubai-style, and that's when things started to change.

And as you suggested, a lot of the expats here live in the 'expat bubble' ... their social circle includes only other expats, and they know about Sentosa but not Geylang or Joo Chiat or Golden Mile (except what they read about in the local rags). I've been lucky enough to fall in with a diverse group that includes Singaporeans, N Americans, Europeans, and Thais, all who are happy to spend time at Golden Mile (the Thai part of town) or even the infamous Towers. Of course, none of them have wife and kids here :-)

[tragickingdom]

At first glance the survey makes no sense at all. Take an high income European country and compare it with let;s say Thailand. You get weird outcome from better cars in Thailand to better education and yes more swimming pools , but it is a bit nonsense to have a swimming pool in Davos or Vienna. The numbers simply do not add up. Cars three, four times the price, education dismal and far more expensive, decent but not world class healthcare, accommodation that might be cheaper in the top segment but except for the great service and the domestic servants inferior in quality. (No nasty North Africans though, what is a definite plus)

I therefore wonder how many people are surveyed in the 200 -250K class. If you make 200k a year it is a nice income in Thailand but it does not make you wealthy. Not wealthy enough to set off the higher costs in healthcare or education, not even with the nice low Thai taxes. It would be very interesting to know therefore how much HSBC's customers are really making on average. I bet it is much much more than 200k a year.

I bet that this is a survey is as trustworthy as the figures from the Thai Economy minister. Of course I would rate Thailand much higher than the US, Australia or a Northern European country, but that is because it is Sodom and Gomorra and it is simply fun to be here with some decent money in your pocket. I am not sure if I am better off with 250K a year here than back home though, except for the climate and the fun.

[hellodolly]

Like This

lothda

Today, 20:02

You not wealthy if you still have to work

Not so.

I know many many people who prefer to accumulate more money, and die rich, rather than to enjoy life. Seems like I will never understand their definition of enjoyment.

I believe Warren Buffet is still working. So is Bill Gates only his objective is not to make money it is to spend it in places he feels it can be a big help. To this end he has had billions of $ donated by wealthy people who are still working.

[hellodolly]

At first glance the survey makes no sense at all. Take an high income European country and compare it with let;s say Thailand. You get weird outcome from better cars in Thailand to better education and yes more swimming pools , but it is a bit nonsense to have a swimming pool in Davos or Vienna. The numbers simply do not add up. Cars three, four times the price, education dismal and far more expensive, decent but not world class healthcare, accommodation that might be cheaper in the top segment but except for the great service and the domestic servants inferior in quality. (No nasty North Africans though, what is a definite plus)

I therefore wonder how many people are surveyed in the 200 -250K class. If you make 200k a year it is a nice income in Thailand but it does not make you wealthy. Not wealthy enough to set off the higher costs in healthcare or education, not even with the nice low Thai taxes. It would be very interesting to know therefore how much HSBC's customers are really making on average. I bet it is much much more than 200k a year.

I bet that this is a survey is as trustworthy as the figures from the Thai Economy minister. Of course I would rate Thailand much higher than the US, Australia or a Northern European country, but that is because it is Sodom and Gomorra and it is simply fun to be here with some decent money in your pocket. I am not sure if I am better off with 250K a year here than back home though, except for the climate and the fun.

Definitely here.

That is provided you don't come from a sterile culture which in my opinion many of the western countries have become.

[kruangfaifar]

BKK is a disorganised, filthy, dangerous DUMP compared to Singapore. So Thailand could only have ranked so high if they excluded those expats who currently live in BKK!!!!!

Try reading the criteria before making such comments. I have lived and worked in BKK since 1996 and the place has got cleaner and much less traffic jams since then (Thanks BTS and MRT) and is still a lot less dangerous than my place of origin (UK) so I am quite happy to stay here. And yes I did participate in the survey

[Kananga]

I lived in Singapore for 8 years and saw many changes over that time, and not many for the better. 2004 must have been the country's peak. Good infrastructure, not too expensive, government starting to release its parental grip on the nation etc. Then it all started going downhill rapidly from 06 onwards. Rampant inflation, swelling population, old buildings with character systematically destroyed, growing anti foreigner sentiment from locals (although I always remind them when they direct it at me that if they could do the jobs themselves we would gladly leave).

I moved there on a low salary (by Singapore standards) and by the time I left I tripled my salary, had the car and housing allowance, club membership (which I never used) etc and I was still less happy than when I first arrived.

Soul destroying doesn't even come close to describing living in Singapore. There is no homegrown talent or culture worth noticing, everything is imported, from the music, to the clothing fashion etc. There is little in the way of places to take kids and anywhere interesting is overrun on weekends by swarms of locals with no sense of direction and their spoilt little emperor kids. As a result I know people who live in little ex-pat bubbles and have never seen anything of the country despite having lived there for a number of years.

HSBC did a similar survey several years ago ago and while Singapore ranked high for safety, infrastructure it ranked 18th for interaction with the locals. About 14 places lower than Thailand. When you consider that the majority of Singaporeans are well educated and speak good English, something just doesn't add up there. Although when the majority of women would spend $3000 on a handbag and not get their teeth fixed, or men will show off their rolex while wearing cheap shoes and nylon trousers is it really to be expected?

For somewhere the government paints as a sort of utopia, a Switzerland of the East, it still amazes me how the majority of people who spend any time there come to hate the place once they wake up and see it for what it really is. A small, overpriced, arrogant, fake soul destroying, superficial expat posting on a downward spiral.

Agree with most of your analysis, not all, but that's down to personal preferences. I agree that there was a tipping point here about 5 or 6 years ago, and it's been downhill ever since (at least for those of us who prefer the cultural richness that often goes along with messier more chaotic places). When I think of Singapore, the words that come to mind are 'sterile' and 'soulness'. I know a lot of Singaporeans who would agree ... this place actually had some real life in the past. But they decided they wanted to do it Dubai-style, and that's when things started to change.

And as you suggested, a lot of the expats here live in the 'expat bubble' ... their social circle includes only other expats, and they know about Sentosa but not Geylang or Joo Chiat or Golden Mile (except what they read about in the local rags). I've been lucky enough to fall in with a diverse group that includes Singaporeans, N Americans, Europeans, and Thais, all who are happy to spend time at Golden Mile (the Thai part of town) or even the infamous Towers. Of course, none of them have wife and kids here :-)

Good points although to be honest even Golden Mile was going downwards in terms of the quality of food in the last couple of years. And the smell, oh that smell. Vile...

As for the Towers...you could literally spend less money flying to Phuket and staying in a midrange hotel for the night in Patong. $15 for a local beer, or $20 for a vodka and tonic is unacceptable anywhere.

[Kananga]

BKK is a disorganised, filthy, dangerous DUMP compared to Singapore. So Thailand could only have ranked so high if they excluded those expats who currently live in BKK!!!!!

Try reading the criteria before making such comments. I have lived and worked in BKK since 1996 and the place has got cleaner and much less traffic jams since then (Thanks BTS and MRT) and is still a lot less dangerous than my place of origin (UK) so I am quite happy to stay here. And yes I did participate in the survey

Very true. I look out of my kitchen window at Sathorn with the skytrain track weaving through it and it looks like something out the 22nd century, yet when I get to street level there are all sorts of restaurants, food carts, hole in the wall bars etc that make Bangkok interesting and enjoyable, even in the 'sterile' downtown area.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Kananga

[kerrysum]

Yes the world may change,

I don't give a rat's ass about where the wealthiest expats live.... I only know the places I have been...... From past experience though, I sure love the old timers that have lived in Thailand for years.... Has Thailand changed? Yes, absolutely.... Over the years, and many years, I would never change a thing.... BKK? You can keep it..... Issan is where I have been and resided... I love it for what it is...... Just guess I can relate to the real people......... They understand in many ways, they know in many ways, that is why I love them...... The secret is patience....

They understand the old ways, their knowledge has always been in my heart..... I haven't changed the Thailand I have always known, people do...

Just my opinion........

Kilosierra

Sorry, too old to change

[Mike West]

Singapore is rich expats' top place to live and work: Survey

Does anyone know what's it's like for investing in residential property? I mean Rate of Return pa, and if the laws allow expats to own land/property, any loops holes where the SIN government can take your property etc, though it seems to me off first bat that Singapore would be a great place to invest in.. Any thoughts?

[Pib]

Wonder how the survey results would have turned out for "un-wealthy" expats?

[ajarnpot]

Survey has Mexico like # 6 and India above US. Nuff said . . . Mexico is an absolute war zone with an awful economy right now unless you are into narcotraficking and own a funeral home. India is absolute hole. Awful. Love Thailand and Singapoire though.

From what I have seen Mexico provides a superior quality of life for inhabitants through non oppresive government measures

the US however

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Does anyone see any info on their survey methodology, and specifically on just what kind of respondents were included in the survey?

Maybe HSBC Premier customers (those with $100,000+ on deposit with the bank)??? Which lets out most of the rest of the world of expats...

The Expat Explorer survey, now in its fourth year, is the largest independent global survey of expats. Commissioned by HSBC Expat and conducted by a third party research company, more than 5,000 expats based in over 100 countries across the globe were questioned between May until July 2012.

How do you define an expat?

For the survey, we have defined an expatriate as someone over the age of 18 years old who is currently living away from their home country (country of origin).

Are the respondents HSBC customers?

As a specialist provider of offshore savings and wealth management for expatriates, of course we invited our customers to take part. But we also wanted a truly international snapshot of expat life. We contacted online communities and used expat social media sites to ensure as many different international expat groups were included.

http://www.expatexplorer.hsbc.com/#/pages/about

Edited October 9, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[bhakta]

I'm an old timer here in Thailand now. I truly loved the life here 30 years ago, but today Thailand has transformed into a country where money has become God for all too many and the safety and spontaneous happiness we experienced here in the past is gone. It is sad for me. I do not know that anywhere else is any better.

[asiawatcher]

Good part about Bangkok is its 'cowboy' territory - Singapore is over-regulated - lot more fun here.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

They could do a similar survey on wealthy exprats, we get a lot of them here !

[mrtoad]

I lived in Singapore before and to be honest if you want to have a decent life you need to earn about 6000-8000 SGD a month. I was not that fortunate since I was just a research associate and getting only 4000SGD/month. I could barely make it, the rental alone was almost half of my salary. The place I could afford was just a very tiny HDB apartment (close to university though) in a 30 years old building. I surveyed plenty places before deciding and i have seen some of the worst, dirtiest, tiniest apartments in my life, but still expensive.

The public transportation would be good if you do not have to take it during pick hours, when it is a total mess!

I love cycling, and Singapore it is not a bicycle friendly place, and actually quite dangerous.

In terms of places to go, if you like shopping and going from malls to malls, then it is your place. I just can take that!

I could talk for hours about what i did not like in Singapore, maybe it would have been different if I earned 200,000 USD a year!

But there is one things I really like about Singapore and that is safety. You won't feel as much safe anywhere else!

In Thailand (chiang mai) I have definitely a better quality life!

I would certainly agree that you need a larger salary. From my experience of Singapore even 6-8k per month would be pushing it, given the cost of living, and accommodation. If housing was on top of that, would be ok, but I think 8-10k would be more reasonable amount. I can't argue with you that that some of the accommodation in Singapore is really lousy and vastly over priced. There are still some great places to eat that are still relatively cheap though really. The last couple of times I have been to Singapore though, I have noticed that it is far more crowded, and the MRT is pretty awful during peak hours. Certainly has changed in the 22 years that I have been traveling to Singapore.

[mrtoad]

BKK is a disorganised, filthy, dangerous DUMP compared to Singapore. So Thailand could only have ranked so high if they excluded those expats who currently live in BKK!!!!!

Singapore might be more clean, safer and more organized.........but is extremely boring to say the least!

Singapre is not as boring as some people may think, spend a bit of time there - and there is plenty going on.

[Kananga]

Good part about Bangkok is its 'cowboy' territory - Singapore is over-regulated - lot more fun here.

Really? Last time I checked the bars in Singapore didn't close at 1am, there wasn't alcohol bans on election days or special birthdays and people didn't repeatedly die in nightclub fires etc.

[Kananga]

BKK is a disorganised, filthy, dangerous DUMP compared to Singapore. So Thailand could only have ranked so high if they excluded those expats who currently live in BKK!!!!!

Singapore might be more clean, safer and more organized.........but is extremely boring to say the least!

Singapre is not as boring as some people may think, spend a bit of time there - and there is plenty going on.

Spending a bit of time there is one thing. Try spending a lot of time there.

[gohmer]

Oh yeah, the other issue here in Singapore is that there is now a strong backlash against foreigners here. When I first came here 13 years ago, the population was at 4 million, including 1 million foreigners (from maids and labourers to professional expats). Now we're at over 5 million, and the citizen population has increased only a bit in that time... we're talking about another million foreigners using the infrastructure here. Streets are more crowded, there are more traffic jams, things break down more often, etc. So the anti-foreigner sentiment here is very strong... you see it everyday in forums, in the news, etc. Of course, this place wouldn't be so successful without foreigners (cheap labour as well as professionals), but a lot of Singaporeans have lost sight of this and simply want to get rid of all those smelly unkempt foreigners that dirty the place and cause all the crime (in their minds).

Had a laugh yesterday: sitting in a pub over-hearing a Singaporean 'auntie' chastising a Filipina waitress for not having Chinese food on the menu. The waitress repeatedly tried to explain that it was supposed to be an IRISH pub, but the Singaporean lady was incensed that she could not get her Bee Hoon there.

One word for the whole mess, Chinese

[hellodolly]

BKK is a disorganised, filthy, dangerous DUMP compared to Singapore. So Thailand could only have ranked so high if they excluded those expats who currently live in BKK!!!!!

Singapore might be more clean, safer and more organized.........but is extremely boring to say the least!

Singapre is not as boring as some people may think, spend a bit of time there - and there is plenty going on.

Was considering a week vacation there instead of my month in Bali. What do you do after four days there?

Not really interested in hanging around just because it has some great restaurants I like food but it is not enough to hold me. I suspect the drinking scene is as boring there as it is any where else. I have limited funds that is why I go to Bali for a month So obviously I am going to be looking for cheaper things but from what I have read so far it has nothing. No Soul nothing to hold ones interest for very long. I suppose if just waking around and seeing a clean city where I didn't have to watch every place put my foot down was exciting I guess it would be great. But I am so use to watching where I walk that it is not a concern to me.

[hellodolly]

Good part about Bangkok is its 'cowboy' territory - Singapore is over-regulated - lot more fun here.

Really? Last time I checked the bars in Singapore didn't close at 1am, there wasn't alcohol bans on election days or special birthdays and people didn't repeatedly die in nightclub fires etc.

In other words you didn't need any brains to be a alcoholic it was always there and you didn't have to plan ahead. Truley a drunks dream come true.

[mrtoad]

BKK is a disorganised, filthy, dangerous DUMP compared to Singapore. So Thailand could only have ranked so high if they excluded those expats who currently live in BKK!!!!!

Singapore might be more clean, safer and more organized.........but is extremely boring to say the least!

Singapre is not as boring as some people may think, spend a bit of time there - and there is plenty going on.

Spending a bit of time there is one thing. Try spending a lot of time there.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt