Is Being Fat A Choice (If There Is No Underlying Medical Reason)

[robblok]

Sometimes this thread gets a bit heavy so if you don't mind a slight off topic diversion,

I would like to share a personal experience with my friends in this thread about drinking and driving.

As you well know, some of us have been known to have had brushes with the authorities on our way home from an occasional social session over the years.

A couple of nights ago, I was out for an evening with friends and had a couple of cocktails and some rather nice red wine.

Knowing full well I may have been slightly over the limit, I did something I've never done before ~ I took a cab home.

Sure enough, I passed a police road block but, since it was a cab, they waved it past.

I arrived home safely without incident, which was a real surprise;

as I have never driven a cab before and am not sure where I got it or what to do with it now that it's in my garage.

Funny, good joke.

[laislica]

Sometimes this thread gets a bit heavy so if you don't mind a slight off topic diversion,

I would like to share a personal experience with my friends in this thread about drinking and driving.

As you well know, some of us have been known to have had brushes with the authorities on our way home from an occasional social session over the years.

A couple of nights ago, I was out for an evening with friends and had a couple of cocktails and some rather nice red wine.

Knowing full well I may have been slightly over the limit, I did something I've never done before ~ I took a cab home.

Sure enough, I passed a police road block but, since it was a cab, they waved it past.

I arrived home safely without incident, which was a real surprise;

as I have never driven a cab before and am not sure where I got it or what to do with it now that it's in my garage.

Funny, good joke.

Whadya mean Joke?

[tropo]

. But i did bring my scales to make sure i could at least check if i was not overeating (small obsession) but just don't want to give up progress made this year.

Bathroom or kitchen scales?

Bathroom, kitchen would be useless as I'm not cooking.

You could bring your kitchen scales to the restaurant to weigh your servings. That would get some attention.

Have you got any recommendations on bathroom scales? After nearly 7 years the liquid crystal display on mine is fading fast.

Edited December 2, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

. But i did bring my scales to make sure i could at least check if i was not overeating (small obsession) but just don't want to give up progress made this year.

Bathroom or kitchen scales?

Bathroom, kitchen would be useless as I'm not cooking.

You could bring your kitchen scales to the restaurant to weigh your servings. That would get some attention.

Have you got any recommendations on bathroom scales? After nearly 7 years the liquid crystal display on mine is fading fast.

Not really i think you and me both don't trust the ones that give fat percentages. So just one with lcd would do. Id buy it before the other one dies so you can weigh you on both. If its the same its ok, if not just note it so you know why your weight changed.

[tropo]

Not really i think you and me both don't trust the ones that give fat percentages. So just one with lcd would do. Id buy it before the other one dies so you can weigh you on both. If its the same its ok, if not just note it so you know why your weight changed.

That's a great idea!

(I had no intentions of buying the fat percentage ones)

[laislica]

Not really i think you and me both don't trust the ones that give fat percentages. So just one with lcd would do. Id buy it before the other one dies so you can weigh you on both. If its the same its ok, if not just note it so you know why your weight changed.

That's a great idea!

(I had no intentions of buying the fat percentage ones)

Ooooh, I did an I love it cos it must be Thai where a lie is preferable to hurtful truth!

It says I'm 13.6% fat, that I've got loads of muscle and high bone density.

I am not using this as an excuse to relax my current regime though.

[tropo]

Not really i think you and me both don't trust the ones that give fat percentages. So just one with lcd would do. Id buy it before the other one dies so you can weigh you on both. If its the same its ok, if not just note it so you know why your weight changed.

That's a great idea!

(I had no intentions of buying the fat percentage ones)

Ooooh, I did an I love it cos it must be Thai where a lie is preferable to hurtful truth!

It says I'm 13.6% fat, that I've got loads of muscle and high bone density.

I am not using this as an excuse to relax my current regime though.

A Tanita scale at the gym used to put me at 22 - 23% bodyfat. Hand held Omron gave me 6%.

Believe what you want, but I wouldn't bother with any of those type of scales even if they were free.

[laislica]

Not really i think you and me both don't trust the ones that give fat percentages. So just one with lcd would do. Id buy it before the other one dies so you can weigh you on both. If its the same its ok, if not just note it so you know why your weight changed.

That's a great idea!

(I had no intentions of buying the fat percentage ones)

Ooooh, I did an I love it cos it must be Thai where a lie is preferable to hurtful truth!

It says I'm 13.6% fat, that I've got loads of muscle and high bone density.

I am not using this as an excuse to relax my current regime though.

A Tanita scale at the gym used to put me at 22 - 23% bodyfat. Hand held Omron gave me 6%.

Believe what you want, but I wouldn't bother with any of those type of scales even if they were free.

Quite so.

The electronic callipers consistently give the same answer and one that I can believe as well.

Pinch an inch Eh what?

But it was fun to see a reading of less than 14% - I wish LOL

[Shurup]

Some eat to live, others live to eat.

[tropo]

Quite so.

The electronic callipers consistently give the same answer and one that I can believe as well.

Pinch an inch Eh what?

But it was fun to see a reading of less than 14% - I wish LOL

I hope I won't be pinching an inch (25.4mm) anytime soon. I was getting near that at that beginning of this year (ab region), but now I pinch about 5-6 mm.

Funny thing (actually more frustrating than funny) is that I can still pinch 13 - 14 mm on my upper back (scapula region) whereas the rest of the body averages about 5mm.

[tropo]

Some eat to live, others live to eat.

How about a bit of both. I certainly eat to live, but I do enjoy what I eat. It's important for me to eat healthy, but equally important to enjoy it.

[Shurup]

Some eat to live, others live to eat.

How about a bit of both. I certainly eat to live, but I do enjoy what I eat. It's important for me to eat healthy, but equally important to enjoy it.

You're right if we keep it simple but if we expand it, it would be something like: Some eat as much as their bodies need (not want), others make eating a hobby, a most favorite activity.

Since this topic swings toward dieting, I will repeat what I've said before: "The best diet is a caveman diet." Meaning no processed or preserved foods of any sort.

[Shurup]

...

Another thing here to remember is that natures way is that we are happy and healthy and do not need any excess muscle or fat other that that needed to survive in our environment. So if you work in an office every day eat healthy every day and retain a good weight but run 20 miles a day or build muscles to mass in the gym you are also putting your body under very servere stress as that is not what the body is meant to do it is also dangerous to the body and it system.

...

I would disagree with this, there's no Nature's way that dictates what person's body must be muscle/fat wise. It all depends on someone's lifestyle. If someone's an office rat, and has had a sedimentary lifestyle, they won't hold much muscles as they're not required for the amount of physical activity the do on a daily basis. On the other hand if you look at a labor worker who does a lot of physical work Mon-Fri 8-5, they will be a lot bulkier. Nature made our bodies the way that they adjust to the amount of work we do on daily basis to make such work easier, every BB knows that to keep growing, they have to constantly increase their weight load as once the body grows more muscles to adjusts to any particular weight, it will stop growing. That is the Nature's way, nothing wrong with an office worker going for a run (not a 20 mile run though), or going to the gym to pump some weights after work, nothing wrong at all.

[tropo]

Some eat to live, others live to eat.

How about a bit of both. I certainly eat to live, but I do enjoy what I eat. It's important for me to eat healthy, but equally important to enjoy it.

You're right if we keep it simple but if we expand it, it would be something like: Some eat as much as their bodies need (not want), others make eating a hobby, a most favorite activity.

Since this topic swings toward dieting, I will repeat what I've said before: "The best diet is a caveman diet." Meaning no processed or preserved foods of any sort.

I eat as much as my body needs but I still consider eating one of life's most pleasurable activities. You can join the two.

People are talking about cavemen as though it's a proven fact that our ancestors were cavemen.

They take a theory, repeat it ad nauseum and all of a sudden it morphs into a factual account of our history.

I don't buy it.

It's making up one theory to validate another. People want to believe intermittent fasting is the way to go, so they dream up a cavemen diet theory to validate it.

... but...

Even if you believe in cavemen, it would have been nowhere near a perfect diet (as Robblok has explained on more than one occasion), and far from it. It would have been a very rough life and people would have had short lifespans.

Edited December 2, 2012 by tropo

[mommysboy]

So in my view, we should stop slavishly trying to eradicate all experience of hunger and recognize that the occasional feeling of hunger is a normal human experience. A days fasting every month is good both for your health and your exercise of self discipline.

Surely you realise that 100's of millions of people living today (no need to build a story about theoretical cavemen) suffer from extreme hunger each and every day. They cannot satisfy this feeling because they just don't have sufficient food. If you starve yourself of carbs, you'll lose fat, but if you starve yourself of protein and essential fats you'll start breaking down vital tissue (organs, muscle etc). You can cause irreparable damage and accelerate aging.

I see this accelerated aging every day I'm in the Philippines. Very malnourished people who look withered and 20 years older than they should. It is very sad to see. Most of my wife's uncles and aunts fit into this category. This is only one country out of many, but at least 40% live below the poverty line - that's about 40 million in the Philippines alone.

Let's thank the lucky stars that for most of us hunger is only an option.

I think the original comment was probably addressed to those on this forum, who are not experiencing chronic hunger but rather 'over nutrition'.

There is merit in going a bit hungry, and many spiritual pursuits work fasting in to their practice, both as a way of increasing humility, and as a common sense dieting and health practice, in my view it is more likely the stomach in particular can benefit from being empty for a short while, and possibly intestines too.

Even on a lesser note, some never snack between main meals, or eat just once or twice a day, seeing this as an excellent way of promoting good health. I'm not so sure of this, but frequently skip breakfast or just go without for a few hours.

[tropo]

There is merit in going a bit hungry, and many spiritual pursuits work fasting in to their practice, both as a way of increasing humility, and as a common sense dieting and health practice, in my view it is more likely the stomach in particular can benefit from being empty for a short while, and possibly intestines too.

Even on a lesser note, some never snack between main meals, or eat just once or twice a day, seeing this as an excellent way of promoting good health. I'm not so sure of this, but frequently skip breakfast or just go without for a few hours.

I tend to wait until I'm a bit hungry to eat too.

Why does everyone want to skip breakfast? It could be healthier to skip other meals. If you want to skip meals, a better way to go would be to eat a good breakfast and a good evening meal. That would be more balanced - perhaps eating a meal every 12 hours.

.... or even better, eat a big meal every 12 hours and a snack in between. You really don't have to suffer to lose fat. You can eat well and still lose fat.

Edited December 2, 2012 by tropo

[laislica]

There is merit in going a bit hungry, and many spiritual pursuits work fasting in to their practice, both as a way of increasing humility, and as a common sense dieting and health practice, in my view it is more likely the stomach in particular can benefit from being empty for a short while, and possibly intestines too.

Even on a lesser note, some never snack between main meals, or eat just once or twice a day, seeing this as an excellent way of promoting good health. I'm not so sure of this, but frequently skip breakfast or just go without for a few hours.

I tend to wait until I'm a bit hungry to eat too.

Why does everyone want to skip breakfast? It could be healthier to skip other meals. If you want to skip meals, a better way to go would be to eat a good breakfast and a good evening meal. That would be more balanced - perhaps eating a meal every 12 hours.

.... or even better, eat a big meal every 12 hours and a snack in between. You really don't have to suffer to lose fat. You can eat well and still lose fat.

There's a theory that if your last food was before, say 9 pm, then by about 8 hours later you move into fat burning, in your sleep.

If you are not hungry in the morning and do exercise, you burn more fat.

I can often have a very late brekkie or skip it even if the last meal was at 6 or 7 pm the night before.

If I don't feel hungry, why eat?

If my diet includes coconut oil and cinnamon and raw garlic on a daily basis, I eat much less than I otherwise would because I don't feel hungry.

Without those foods, I used to snack all evening and losing fat was almost impossible.

This is despite "She who must be obeyed" being a great cook and making offerings better than many a restaurant.

She accepts and supports my weird eating habits I am very happy to say.

[robblok]

There is merit in going a bit hungry, and many spiritual pursuits work fasting in to their practice, both as a way of increasing humility, and as a common sense dieting and health practice, in my view it is more likely the stomach in particular can benefit from being empty for a short while, and possibly intestines too.

Even on a lesser note, some never snack between main meals, or eat just once or twice a day, seeing this as an excellent way of promoting good health. I'm not so sure of this, but frequently skip breakfast or just go without for a few hours.

I tend to wait until I'm a bit hungry to eat too.

Why does everyone want to skip breakfast? It could be healthier to skip other meals. If you want to skip meals, a better way to go would be to eat a good breakfast and a good evening meal. That would be more balanced - perhaps eating a meal every 12 hours.

.... or even better, eat a big meal every 12 hours and a snack in between. You really don't have to suffer to lose fat. You can eat well and still lose fat.

There's a theory that if your last food was before, say 9 pm, then by about 8 hours later you move into fat burning, in your sleep.

If you are not hungry in the morning and do exercise, you burn more fat.

I can often have a very late brekkie or skip it even if the last meal was at 6 or 7 pm the night before.

If I don't feel hungry, why eat?

If my diet includes coconut oil and cinnamon and raw garlic on a daily basis, I eat much less than I otherwise would because I don't feel hungry.

Without those foods, I used to snack all evening and losing fat was almost impossible.

This is despite "She who must be obeyed" being a great cook and making offerings better than many a restaurant.

She accepts and supports my weird eating habits I am very happy to say.

I know about the fasted exercise theory and i do believe its valid. But you could also burn muscle that way.

As far as i know its based on the theory that all energy stores are depleted in the morning. Some advocate it some don't im not sure about it i do know for me it limits how hard i can train. I have done it though for a while and if i had the mood for it its good. Gets the cardio for the day out of the way.

On the other hand i do believe in a good breakfast and that its important, but some light cardio before it might be good.

I make sure i get plenty of proteins and other stuff in the morning its one of my biggest meals.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect App

[tropo]

There's a theory that if your last food was before, say 9 pm, then by about 8 hours later you move into fat burning, in your sleep.

If you are not hungry in the morning and do exercise, you burn more fat.

I can often have a very late brekkie or skip it even if the last meal was at 6 or 7 pm the night before.

If I don't feel hungry, why eat?

If my diet includes coconut oil and cinnamon and raw garlic on a daily basis, I eat much less than I otherwise would because I don't feel hungry.

Without those foods, I used to snack all evening and losing fat was almost impossible.

This is despite "She who must be obeyed" being a great cook and making offerings better than many a restaurant.

She accepts and supports my weird eating habits I am very happy to say.

We got our wires crossed a bit here.

I was referring to breakfast as being one of the most important meals of the day in a general sense, for a healthy person of normal weight, not for a person desperately trying to lose weight.

However, most of the overweight people probably got that way even while skipping breakfast, which is an extremely common habit.

Why eat breakfast if you're not hungry? Good question. To fill the tank and prepare for the day perhaps? My breakfast is usually eaten about one hour after waking, so it's not immediate. Breakfast is usually the least enjoyable meal of the day and it's more about providing nutrients than being a taste sensation.

Of course the reason why a lot of people don't have nutritious breakfasts is because they wake up early (often by alarm) and have to rush off to work, so it is understandable... but that doesn't make it ideal. They get extremely hungry by morning break and just pump the stomach full of junk... anything they can get their hands on.

It is always difficult to concentrate on and organise what you eat when you're very hungry. I try to eat before I get too hungry to avoid this problem.

[tropo]

I know about the fasted exercise theory and i do believe its valid. But you could also burn muscle that way.

As far as i know its based on the theory that all energy stores are depleted in the morning. Some advocate it some don't im not sure about it i do know for me it limits how hard i can train. I have done it though for a while and if i had the mood for it its good. Gets the cardio for the day out of the way.

On the other hand i do believe in a good breakfast and that its important, but some light cardio before it might be good.

I make sure i get plenty of proteins and other stuff in the morning its one of my biggest meals.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect App

There is another way. Make the morning meal before you do your cardio pure protein. You won't affect the fat-burning and you'll get the protein your body needs first thing in the morning.

Edited December 2, 2012 by tropo

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Some eat to live, others live to eat.

How about a bit of both. I certainly eat to live, but I do enjoy what I eat. It's important for me to eat healthy, but equally important to enjoy it.

You're right if we keep it simple but if we expand it, it would be something like: Some eat as much as their bodies need (not want), others make eating a hobby, a most favorite activity.

Since this topic swings toward dieting, I will repeat what I've said before: "The best diet is a caveman diet." Meaning no processed or preserved foods of any sort.

I eat as much as my body needs but I still consider eating one of life's most pleasurable activities. You can join the two.

People are talking about cavemen as though it's a proven fact that our ancestors were cavemen.

They take a theory, repeat it ad nauseum and all of a sudden it morphs into a factual account of our history.

I don't buy it.

It's making up one theory to validate another. People want to believe intermittent fasting is the way to go, so they dream up a cavemen diet theory to validate it.

... but...

Even if you believe in cavemen, it would have been nowhere near a perfect diet (as Robblok has explained on more than one occasion), and far from it. It would have been a very rough life and people would have had short lifespans.

The "theoretical cavemen" are a group that you introduced into the debate in post 385. My reference ( in the post you were responding too) was to "ancient man". Any "ad nauseum" repetition of the caveman theory is yours alone!

Although none of us were around at the time there is indeed every likelihood that these people lived hard lives with a short lifespan. It is however just as reasonable to speculate that the characteristics of their hunter-gatherer existence meant that they were unlikely to have been overweight.

The proposition that our ancient ancestors were hunter-gatherers is the frequently articulated view of most anthropologists.

[tropo]

You call them "cavemen", I call them "theoretical cavemen" or "hypothetical cavemen".

You call it "frequently articulated", I call it "ad nauseum".

It all depends on where you're sitting.

There's plenty of malnourished lean people around and they are by no means healthy. Lean does not equal healthy.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

You call them "cavemen", I call them "theoretical cavemen" or "hypothetical cavemen".

You call it "frequently articulated", I call it "ad nauseum".

It all depends on where you're sitting.

There's plenty of malnourished lean people around and they are by no means healthy. Lean does not equal healthy.

I have never used the term "cavemen". You introduced the concept of "cavemen" into the debate and you are the only member of this forum going on about them "ad nauseum".

I agree that malnourished lean people are not necessarily healthy but it doesn't alter the fact that the lifestyle of those who lived in the distant past probably mitigated against becoming overweight.

[Shurup]

Some eat to live, others live to eat.

How about a bit of both. I certainly eat to live, but I do enjoy what I eat. It's important for me to eat healthy, but equally important to enjoy it.

You're right if we keep it simple but if we expand it, it would be something like: Some eat as much as their bodies need (not want), others make eating a hobby, a most favorite activity.

Since this topic swings toward dieting, I will repeat what I've said before: "The best diet is a caveman diet." Meaning no processed or preserved foods of any sort.

I eat as much as my body needs but I still consider eating one of life's most pleasurable activities. You can join the two.

People are talking about cavemen as though it's a proven fact that our ancestors were cavemen.

They take a theory, repeat it ad nauseum and all of a sudden it morphs into a factual account of our history.

I don't buy it.

It's making up one theory to validate another. People want to believe intermittent fasting is the way to go, so they dream up a cavemen diet theory to validate it.

... but...

Even if you believe in cavemen, it would have been nowhere near a perfect diet (as Robblok has explained on more than one occasion), and far from it. It would have been a very rough life and people would have had short lifespans.

You always have to say something don't you?

Re: "Some eat to live, others live to eat." - it doesn't suggest one or another group of people can't enjoy what they eat, it merely suggest one group doesn't know when to stop stuffing themselves. Why do I need to explain this? If you didn't say you were 50+ I would've thought I was talking to a 10 y.o.

Re: Caveman diet, again, for you it seems like it means starving for a week then stuff yourself with whatever you can get your hands on. I even mentioned the caveman diet means no processed or preserved food of any sort which suggest the quality of the food only, not quantity or frequency of the meals, did you miss this part or you wanted someone to explain it for you and put it in your mouth so it's easier to swallow? I agree on many things you say but you like arguing and sometimes you aren't right and you make me wonder if you think/research the subject before you start typing? Caveman diet means eating variety of foods the way they found in nature with minimum or no processing at all.

Furthermore the life span of the cavemen has nothing to do with the caveman diet. I would think their lifespans had a lot to do with other factors like diseases, injuries, poisoning, etc. combined together with total absence of any sort of medical treatments.

[robblok]

I always thought the caveman diet also excluded unprocessed foods that were not available back then like grains. That and other foods is my problem if you can eat anything if its unprocessed im more ok with it. Many fruits were also never available

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect App

[tropo]

You always have to say something don't you?

If you didn't say you were 50+ I would've thought I was talking to a 10 y.o.

Yes I do. Too bad if you have a problem with that.

I'd say you're the one acting like a toddler on here. Stick to the topic and quit flaming. There's no need to get so personal just because someone doesn't agree... and stop whining.

Edited December 3, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

You introduced the concept of "cavemen" into the debate and you are the only member of this forum going on about them "ad nauseum".

Nonsense! The caveman or paleo diet has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum - by you and others.

[laislica]

The Pi$$ing contest is OVER.

Here are the results:

Laislica 10,

Roblock 10 even though you didn't compete (this time anyway)

Tropo 10,

Shurup 10,

Rajab 10.

The contest was a draw.

If anyone was missed, please complain to the Stewards.

As you know, you get 10 points just for attending.

Aye Thank You!!

To the losers, (there wern't any) Better luck next time.

Next:

Edited December 3, 2012 by laislica

[GarryP]

The Pi$$ing contest is OVER.

Here are the results:

Laislica 10,

Roblock 10 even though you didn't compete (this time anyway)

Tropo 10,

Shurup 10,

Rajab 10.

The contest was a draw.

If anyone was missed, please complain to the Stewards.

As you know, you get 10 points just for attending.

Aye Thank You!!

To the losers, (there wern't any) Better luck next time.

Next:

I think it is because we are coming up to the end of year silly season.

Anyway, with the holidays around the corner and parties galore, we are going to see many good intentions go out of the window. Getting back on the treadmill to fitness will have to wait for after the New Year. Caveman, Marine Boy, Mountain Guru, Forest Hermit, etc be buggered.

[laislica]

My g/f's brother had a ltiile tickle on the old Lottery and he and his wife took mobs of family out for lunch at a nice restaurant in the country.

Talk about eat, drink and be merry LOL

Well it would be bad form to refuse., so as Peter Sellers once said:

Grasp with both hands I beseech you, the opportunities that are offered..... (Oops, sorry Madam)

At least we stopped eating when we went to bed

Today we made a trip into Bangkok and again the good intentions went to hell in a hand basket, and as you say, so what, it has to be done.

Man must and will pay for his pleasures, but later eh?