Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[evadgib]

This is all about Salmond's ego, Should it fail he'll keep going as per the Aussie anti monachists or the Oirish "yes" voters to the EU referendum.

It wouldn't suprise me if he's unseated at the last minute in a scandal of his own making, politicians & greed being so closely interwoven.

[nontabury]

The level of anti-English behaviour and attitudes in Scotland today shocks even Scottish born and bred locals.

If the English were given the chance of a referendum Scotland would be independent tomorrow....

The Scots have always (at least for the last 30-40yrs) complained that the union of 1707 was not voted on by the then majority

Of Scots, but by a small number of land owners and rich business people,and I think this is a good point. However they never mention that the majority of the English,also never had the opportunity to vote on the Union,again it was the English

land owners and the rich business people who voted on their behalf.

In around 1997 the Scots where given a referendum on changing the terms of the union, no referendum was offered to the English.

Come 2014 the Scots people as a whole will vote on separation,again the English are denied the opportunity to vote on this issue,even though there is a larger % of the English who want the separation,according to opinion polls carried out over recent years.

Yet it may be that the English will get their wish by being very clever,you see this agreement was not drawn up by Alex Salmond, but by one of his deputies

A Yorkshire lass called Nicola Sturgeon,in fact if you look up the SNP members in the Scottish parliament and the London

Parliament you will find a number of them who are not really Scottish.

My worry is if in 2014 the Scottish electorate reject the yes vote, what will then happen, will the SNP in say 20 yrs, again demand a vote,they certainly will not be able to put forward the case that the whole electorate was not involved as in 1707.

Indeed, the original Acts of Union in 1706/07 were largely put in place to bail out the well connected if financially naive who had been bankrupted by the Darien Scheme, Scotland's last shot at national aggrandisement.

The average Scottish peon barely had a look in electorally till 1918, and if they were born with the perceived misfortune of being female, without property and under 30, had to wait until 1928 for true universal suffrage.

Very true,exactly the same for the English electorate.Now at least the Scots will get the opportunity to vote on this issue, but once again the English are denied the right to vote,even thought more English want out of the union then Scots.

Does anybody know what will happen in the event of the Scottish electorate rejecting separation, will the SNP demand a referendum every few years until they get their wish,because if they do, it would only be fair for the Scottish electorate who wish to remain in the union, to demand future referendums to re enter a union.that's of course if the English would be interested.

,

[samran]

If Salmond gets his dream of an independent Scotland he must remember that, as a new country he will have to apply to join the EU, should he so wish; and demonstrate he can meet the appropriate financial requirements etc.

...which at present seems to mean a bucket load of debt and a willingness for the Germans to bail them out.

[nontabury]

I think you would get an overwhelming vote in favor of Scottish independence if you held the referendum in England and asked the English!

...Until they actually sat down and thought about it for a moment. Thw breakup of the USSR was hardly a triumph for it`s peoples in the cold light of day, was it?

The Russian people now think that they are better of out of the USSR,the same as I think it will be better for the english out of the union with Scotland. Unfortunately we will have to rely on Scots such as Smokie and the Bleather to grant us our wish.

[folium]

I think you would get an overwhelming vote in favor of Scottish independence if you held the referendum in England and asked the English!

...Until they actually sat down and thought about it for a moment. Thw breakup of the USSR was hardly a triumph for it`s peoples in the cold light of day, was it?

Millions might disagree and not just in the former Soviet |Union countries.

[onionluke]

http://youtu.be/XWwob40YvRk

just leave it up to the utubitians Edited October 18, 2012 by onionluke

[phuketjock]

<snip> So you want all the rights of being British but none of the responsibilities! I'm not surprised.

Apologies for snipping your post 7by7 but that is a comment I feel a reply should be made as in my opinion its the right to make our own decisions and take responsibility for our failures which leads me to believe 100% in Scottish independence.

It will prove a rocky road and a difficult transition for many in our country but its the right one as our philosophy on how a country should run is fundamentally different to England.

There is much common ground however and we should remain close partners in many areas but in terms of government and funding separate.

I am a Scot. Regardless of what happened hundreds of years ago and no matter how many times I watch braveheart it is just NOT that simple. At the moment the Scottish Government have got the best of all worlds. They rake in cash from Westminster, they are even allowed to vote on parliamentary bills in Westminster, yet MP's holding an 'English' seat cannot vote in the Scottish assembly. What philosophy of running the country are you talking of? Scotland has its own parliament and runs itself more or less as it chooses and it is paid for by Westminster.

How do you just hand over the oil fields?

Are we also just supposed to leave all military hardware in Scotland? Every time a military base closes in Scotland it DEVASTATES the local communities and towns. Losses of hundreds of jobs, the loss of 3000 servicemen spending money in the local towns, 1000 children in the local schools. What this agreement to referendum will do is send a clear signal to defence planners every time there is a defence review to close more Scottish bases. You watch the Military in Scotland slashed next year!

you can only have free Universities if you have a country capable of financially supporting itself. How will Scotland have better health care? There will be no wedges of cash coming from Westminster?

Will they lock the Queen out of Balmoral?

Pensions, child allowance, social security the inevitable 'refugee's from other European countries living in scotland that will move south of the border to continue getting social security payments under European Law, housing TAX, blah blah blah.

From an entire socioeconomic point of view it is an absolute non starter and the fact that it is considered as an option is simply amazing. The world has changed A LOT in the last 800 years and this somehow romantic idea of crowning a new King on the stone of scone is all complete and utter story book twaddle. Cameron has just given Salmond enough rope to hang himself, and Salmond must wander around in a permanent state of intoxication (do they have ear medicine in Scotland) if on a day to day basis he considers this viable.

And hey lets take children, kids who are too young to get a driving licence and to drink or buy a pack of cigarettes, or get employment in most places now....let them vote on the future of the nation and all the socio economic problems that WILL follow. What will Salmond do, show Braveheart on primetime TV every week for the next two years to convince them? He will be wandering in to parliament with blue paint on his frigging face soon punching the air screaming 'Freeeeeeedom'.

The whole idea is romantic madness and the novelty would soon wear off when someone does the maths and realises there is not enough money coming in the coffers and then the subsequent break down in society, still the English could look forward to a huge tax cut not having to pay for millions of people North of the border. In answer to the question in the line we all sing "Oh Flower of Scotland...when will we see..your like again'....the answer is guys never! This should not even have got this far. From a purely objective point of view, if Salmond has engineered this to try and broker more money from Westminster then westminster should say 'ram it', hold your referendum and be damned.

So at least one Scot thinks it's madness.

Do you have any facts, finacial or otherwise to support your flowery and fanciful view of things??

This Scot thinks independance makes perfectly good sense in everyway!!

Edited October 19, 2012 by phuketjock

[StreetCowboy]

<snip> So you want all the rights of being British but none of the responsibilities! I'm not surprised.

Apologies for snipping your post 7by7 but that is a comment I feel a reply should be made as in my opinion its the right to make our own decisions and take responsibility for our failures which leads me to believe 100% in Scottish independence.

It will prove a rocky road and a difficult transition for many in our country but its the right one as our philosophy on how a country should run is fundamentally different to England.

There is much common ground however and we should remain close partners in many areas but in terms of government and funding separate.

I am a Scot. Regardless of what happened hundreds of years ago and no matter how many times I watch braveheart it is just NOT that simple. At the moment the Scottish Government have got the best of all worlds. They rake in cash from Westminster, they are even allowed to vote on parliamentary bills in Westminster, yet MP's holding an 'English' seat cannot vote in the Scottish assembly. What philosophy of running the country are you talking of? Scotland has its own parliament and runs itself more or less as it chooses and it is paid for by Westminster.

How do you just hand over the oil fields?

Are we also just supposed to leave all military hardware in Scotland? Every time a military base closes in Scotland it DEVASTATES the local communities and towns. Losses of hundreds of jobs, the loss of 3000 servicemen spending money in the local towns, 1000 children in the local schools. What this agreement to referendum will do is send a clear signal to defence planners every time there is a defence review to close more Scottish bases. You watch the Military in Scotland slashed next year!

you can only have free Universities if you have a country capable of financially supporting itself. How will Scotland have better health care? There will be no wedges of cash coming from Westminster?

Will they lock the Queen out of Balmoral?

Pensions, child allowance, social security the inevitable 'refugee's from other European countries living in scotland that will move south of the border to continue getting social security payments under European Law, housing TAX, blah blah blah.

From an entire socioeconomic point of view it is an absolute non starter and the fact that it is considered as an option is simply amazing. The world has changed A LOT in the last 800 years and this somehow romantic idea of crowning a new King on the stone of scone is all complete and utter story book twaddle. Cameron has just given Salmond enough rope to hang himself, and Salmond must wander around in a permanent state of intoxication (do they have ear medicine in Scotland) if on a day to day basis he considers this viable.

And hey lets take children, kids who are too young to get a driving licence and to drink or buy a pack of cigarettes, or get employment in most places now....let them vote on the future of the nation and all the socio economic problems that WILL follow. What will Salmond do, show Braveheart on primetime TV every week for the next two years to convince them? He will be wandering in to parliament with blue paint on his frigging face soon punching the air screaming 'Freeeeeeedom'.

The whole idea is romantic madness and the novelty would soon wear off when someone does the maths and realises there is not enough money coming in the coffers and then the subsequent break down in society, still the English could look forward to a huge tax cut not having to pay for millions of people North of the border. In answer to the question in the line we all sing "Oh Flower of Scotland...when will we see..your like again'....the answer is guys never! This should not even have got this far. From a purely objective point of view, if Salmond has engineered this to try and broker more money from Westminster then westminster should say 'ram it', hold your referendum and be damned.

So at least one Scot thinks it's madness.

Do you have any facts, finacial or otherwise to support your flowery and fanciful view of things??

This Scot thinks independance makes perfectly good sense in everyway!!

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

[Steely Dan]

So the joke is that someone who has been resident in Scotland for 2/3 or whatever years as proscribed, gets to vote on independence but the same person may not qualify as a Scottish citizen once independence is achieved?

The non-indigenous decide matters for the indigenous.

[onionluke]

The tartan legs ordeal .

How close can your aging grandmother get to one bar of the electric fire ? Extra points if she can afford to turn it on in freezing conditions .

vs

The Home counties independence mouth piece who sits on his arse on a loyd loom chair . Extra points if he can define his Englishness .

[phuketjock]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

[Thaddeus]

What? the English oppressed you by force feeding you fresh fruit?

[Throatwobbler]

As an Englishman I have no problem with the Scottish right to self determination and independence. Same goes for the Welsh and the Irish (in NI) if they want it.

However I do feel it might be fair and proper that if they are offered that choice the English should be given the same option too. We don't like being called Brits any more than the Celts do.

Speak for yourself but I have no problem being called or calling myself British.

[Throatwobbler]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

Have you got your blue facepaint on as you write this, Living out you William Wallace fantasies.

[bigbamboo]

As an Englishman I have no problem with the Scottish right to self determination and independence. Same goes for the Welsh and the Irish (in NI) if they want it.

However I do feel it might be fair and proper that if they are offered that choice the English should be given the same option too. We don't like being called Brits any more than the Celts do.

Speak for yourself but I have no problem being called or calling myself British.

Fair enough but I still consider myself English first and "British' (a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) second.

[nontabury]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

It's Scots like you with your mentality and a chip on the shoulder that makes the English want rid of Scotland. Please help the English,vote SNP.

[bigbamboo]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

It's Scots like you with your mentality and a chip on the shoulder that makes the English want rid of Scotland. Please help the English,vote SNP.

As Samuel Johnson once said, "The noblest prospect a Scotsman will ever see is the high road that leads him to England."

And ever since England has been over run with Scottish 'slaves' making the trip down south.

[phuketjock]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

It's Scots like you with your mentality and a chip on the shoulder that makes the English want rid of Scotland. Please help the English,vote SNP.

That is no chip man that is the shackles of the English slavers that so heavily weigh on my Scottish heart and soul not to mention my pockets that the English parliament has managed to to keep as empty as possible while lining their own

Edited October 23, 2012 by phuketjock

[nontabury]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

It's Scots like you with your mentality and a chip on the shoulder that makes the English want rid of Scotland. Please help the English,vote SNP.

That is no chip man that is the shackles of the English slavers that so heavily weigh on my Scottish heart and soul not to mention my pockets that the English parliament has managed to to keep as empty as possible while lining their own

Would this be the same English parliament, who had as their leader,Tony Blair and

Gordon Brown, Yes, those two Scotsmen who did more damage to England than

Hitler managed.

Look up the Barnett formula, also check out how many Scots M.P's vote on English issues,

And how many English M.P's vote on Scottish issues.

[7by7]

Could be worse; at least we wont be stuck with Salmond!

Alex Salmond branded ‘liar’ over legal advice row as two MSPs resign

Labour MSP Paul Martin seized on the statement to brand Salmond a ‘liar’, saying:

‘It appears the First Minister is a liar and used taxpayers’ money to try to cover up his lies. When asked about whether he had sought legal advice on Scotland joining the EU, he said he had. He even went to court to prevent that advice from being published and he told the Scottish Parliament that he couldn’t reveal it because the rules wouldn’t let him. Now Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed that Alex Salmond never had any advice to keep secret in the first place. That means the Deputy First Minister has revealed the First Minister to be a liar.’

[endure]

If you gents want your posts to remain on view you will refrain from using foul language in them.

[smokie36]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

It's Scots like you with your mentality and a chip on the shoulder that makes the English want rid of Scotland. Please help the English,vote SNP.

As Samuel Johnson once said, "The noblest prospect a Scotsman will ever see is the high road that leads him to England."

And ever since England has been over run with Scottish 'slaves' making the trip down south.

In fact in recent years many English have settled north of the border due to cheaper housing and a better quality of life.

[smokie36]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

It's Scots like you with your mentality and a chip on the shoulder that makes the English want rid of Scotland. Please help the English,vote SNP.

That is no chip man that is the shackles of the English slavers that so heavily weigh on my Scottish heart and soul not to mention my pockets that the English parliament has managed to to keep as empty as possible while lining their own

Would this be the same English parliament, who had as their leader,Tony Blair and

Gordon Brown, Yes, those two Scotsmen who did more damage to England than

Hitler managed.

Look up the Barnett formula, also check out how many Scots M.P's vote on English issues,

And how many English M.P's vote on Scottish issues.

Tony Blair is English.

[smokie36]

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there?

SC

The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the

counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot

would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English

thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve

the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

To live in a country with devolution is to always look to Westminster for funding. Should this vote fail then funding will be cut year on year affecting Scotland's ability to govern itself in the way it wishes.

A return to the days of Tory rule in the '80's when jobs were destroyed and entire towns reduced to living on meagre handouts. Many of these communities have never recovered.

I say we should go our own way...and as said in the last sentence above...sink or swim under our own steam....if we fail then we shall have only ourselves to blame. Most Scots could live with that more palatable truth than be living with whatever scraps the English decide to dish out.

[smokie36]

@ Jim.....I read your words of woe.....heard all this before of course. Out of interest....what is your age group please?

[7by7]

........Tony Blair and

Gordon Brown, Yes, those two Scotsmen who did more damage to England than

Hitler managed............

Tony Blair is English.

Blair was born in Edinburgh, Scotland^[9] on 6 May 1953,^[1] the second son of Leo and Hazel Blair (née Corscadden). (Wikipedia)

[nontabury]

Tony Blair is English.

Tony Blair born 6th May 1953,place of birth EDINBURGH, which is I believe in Scotland. At the age of two his family then moved to Australia for a short period before returning to Scotland to live in Stepps near Glasgow.

[endure]

Regardless of where Tony Blair was born he is a son of Onan...

[folium]

Regardless of where Tony Blair was born he is a son of Onan...

To be honest I think that no country will stand up and claim Bliar......

[GentlemanJim]

I am a Scot. Regardless of what happened hundreds of years ago and no matter how many times I watch braveheart it is just NOT that simple. At the moment the Scottish Government have got the best of all worlds. They rake in cash from Westminster, they are even allowed to vote on parliamentary bills in Westminster, yet MP's holding an 'English' seat cannot vote in the Scottish assembly. What philosophy of running the country are you talking of? Scotland has its own parliament and runs itself more or less as it chooses and it is paid for by Westminster. How do you just hand over the oil fields? Are we also just supposed to leave all military hardware in Scotland? Every time a military base closes in Scotland it DEVASTATES the local communities and towns. Losses of hundreds of jobs, the loss of 3000 servicemen spending money in the local towns, 1000 children in the local schools. What this agreement to referendum will do is send a clear signal to defence planners every time there is a defence review to close more Scottish bases. You watch the Military in Scotland slashed next year! you can only have free Universities if you have a country capable of financially supporting itself. How will Scotland have better health care? There will be no wedges of cash coming from Westminster? Will they lock the Queen out of Balmoral? Pensions, child allowance, social security the inevitable 'refugee's from other European countries living in scotland that will move south of the border to continue getting social security payments under European Law, housing TAX, blah blah blah. From an entire socioeconomic point of view it is an absolute non starter and the fact that it is considered as an option is simply amazing. The world has changed A LOT in the last 800 years and this somehow romantic idea of crowning a new King on the stone of scone is all complete and utter story book twaddle. Cameron has just given Salmond enough rope to hang himself, and Salmond must wander around in a permanent state of intoxication (do they have ear medicine in Scotland) if on a day to day basis he considers this viable. And hey lets take children, kids who are too young to get a driving licence and to drink or buy a pack of cigarettes, or get employment in most places now....let them vote on the future of the nation and all the socio economic problems that WILL follow. What will Salmond do, show Braveheart on primetime TV every week for the next two years to convince them? He will be wandering in to parliament with blue paint on his frigging face soon punching the air screaming 'Freeeeeeedom'. The whole idea is romantic madness and the novelty would soon wear off when someone does the maths and realises there is not enough money coming in the coffers and then the subsequent break down in society, still the English could look forward to a huge tax cut not having to pay for millions of people North of the border. In answer to the question in the line we all sing "Oh Flower of Scotland...when will we see..your like again'....the answer is guys never! This should not even have got this far. From a purely objective point of view, if Salmond has engineered this to try and broker more money from Westminster then westminster should say 'ram it', hold your referendum and be damned. So at least one Scot thinks it's madness.

Do you have any facts, finacial or otherwise to support your flowery and fanciful view of things?? This Scot thinks independance makes perfectly good sense in everyway!!

What exactly is it about my view that is flowery and fanciful? Why do you need or indeed deserve more 'facts'? I have written at length justifying my position and you essentially demand more, yet only retort by saying 'this scot thinks independence makes perfectly good sense in every way'. ! Just exactly how will it make good sense? Do you actually understand how the scottish fiscal system works and how much money they get from Westminster? If you do understand it then please explain how you think Scotland will generate that kind of money as an independent country? Do you think English and foreign companies will hang around for the inevitable hike in corporate taxes to help pay the massive short fall?

Will it be enough to tempt you to live there? SC The only reason I don't live there now is because of the gross misrule of the counry by the English for the last 300 years. Scots Wha Hae!! No true Scot would ever think twice about breaking away from the chains of the English thieves. We have failed as enslaved Scots too long I and all Scotsmen deserve the right to sink or swim under our own steam as free independant Scots.

There we are spoken like a true Buckfast Boy! Absolute romantic William Wallis twaddle. I take it when Scotland is actually sinking under mass unemployment, poverty, a collapsing Education system (currently the best in the UK) and a failing healthcare system that you will leave Thailand and go back to live as a free Scot in Scotland? But oh yes, it was all great 300 years ago but remember 95% of the population had little more than porridge and sheep's offal to live on. Maybe you could top up the understanding you have of history by watching Rob Roy as well as Braveheart. I guess you are someone who still thinks that Bannockburn was won by 'patriots of Scotland' starving and out numbered, fighting like warrior poets' as opposed to the reality of 300 + or so heavy cavalry from the battle hardened French Knights Templars repaying the gift of sanctuary that was offered to them by The Bruce!

@ Jim.....I read your words of woe.....heard all this before of course. Out of interest....what is your age group please?

Well perhaps if you have heard all the words of woe before there just might be something in it. As for my age group I must obviously be in an age group capable of clear, independent and objective thinking, an age group that is clearly problematic to the aspirations of Salmond, hence his desire to give the vote at the referendum to 16 and 17 year olds. After a few repeat showings of Braveheart and Rob Roy the youngsters will be ready to follow in Phuketjocks shoes, albeit they will actually be in Scotland, whilst he watches everything sink from afar.

Edited October 24, 2012 by GentlemanJim