Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[theblether]

@Folium

This obsession with AS is pathetic. Forget about him, worry about the quiet.

Labout found at the last Scottish election that it's the quiet you should fear.

Talking of "pathetic" as you so charmingly put it, you appear to be far more obsessed about Mr Salmond than I would ever care to be. I think most people dream about "quiet" when it comes to Mr Salmond!

Still keen to develop you view about people managing their own affairs. If Scotland needs independence in order to manage its own affairs as opposed to being a peripheral. minority governed by a distant and non-representative body, how will an independent Scotland represent the views and opinions as diverse and distant (in all ways) of Maryhill, Marchmont and Lerwick? Perhaps they also need to secceed...

That post is below your normal standard. I didn't say AS was quiet, I said beware of "the quiet". The same people who watched as the SNP were 10% behind Labour 30 days before the last Holyrood election then came out and hammered them.

Your comment about Marchmont etc........there's far more chance of their voice being heard at Holyrood than Westminster, your comment is inane.

@ScotsExpat. Excellent post.

[7by7]

The societies whose links you proffer as 'proof' of your point are societies who are National societies, with a very obvious bias in the development.

Provide me proof from a clearly unbiased and objective source, or stop providing them at all...

Have you actually read their reports? I doubt it.

Yes, they are national societies; societies who exist to protect the Scottish environment and heritage; something you don't appear to care about.

It seems that, like certain others in this topic, you will only accept evidence which backs your side of the argument as unbiased and dismiss evidence which doesn't as biased and untrustworthy!

Personally, I take the carefully researched and detailed evidence of these societies plus that of the people actually affected by the development over the opinion of someone who moved away from the area long before it even occurred to Trump to build his golf course.

[7by7]

Post independence, and post election for the first Scottish wholly governing parliament, the people who we have voted to run our country will respond as best they can to the questions that arise, in precisely the same way than any other democratic country.

Is their some reason why the Scots cannot handle this????

None at all; although I doubt Salmond could handle it. He's ok running what is effectively a super sized county council that is the current Scottish Parliament; but a real country; a real parliament? Doubtful. The number of times he's been tied in knots and caught lying place serious concerns upon his abilities.

He may come across at present to some as a charismatic front man, but expect to SNP to ditch him should they win the referendum..

But there are arguments for and against Scottish independence.

Those of us against it have, in the main, tried to put our arguments in a sensible way, using evidence to back those arguments up.

Sadly the same cannot be said for those who have argued for Scottish independence; who have relied mainly on put downs, insults and silly smilies.

[theblether]

No one is taking you seriously 7x7, you think that your last two posts are reasonable responses and I find them sneering and insulting.

Your out of order comparing our Parliament to a glorified council, your out of order insinuating that ScotsExpat doesn't care about the enviroment at his family home, and your out of order with your constant sneering attacks on AS.

Nick Clegg is a liar.....he said no to tuition fees, then sold his soul and electorate.

David Cameron is a liar......he promised us a referendum on Europe.

Ed Milliband is a liar....he was dead centre of the financial mismanagement of the country and every time he utters the " crisis made in America" he knows it's a lie.

The financial crisis was a failure of the government to regulate the banks and control the money supply.

Politicians lie, evade and obsfucate.

You seem to have a problem accepting that the RSPB reports etc were noted and over-ruled. The decision was made within the rules of Scottish law. It's over, and that's it.

Can you pm me me your home address? We've got some nuclear weapons we want rid of, we were going to eBay them but we'll just send them to you for safekeeping, you'll need some parking space for a few subs too.

It's cute that you care so much about our enviroment, take away the nukes for us and we'll be eternally grateful.

Good man.

[7by7]

Sadly the same cannot be said for those who have argued for Scottish independence; who have relied mainly on put downs, insults and silly smilies.

Once again, theblether, you have proved my point.

[Morakot]

although I doubt Salmond could handle it. He's ok running what is effectively a super sized county council that is the current Scottish Parliament; but a real country; a real parliament? Doubtful.

What an ill-informed view... Holyrood is probably a more effective legislature than Westminster.

[theblether]

Sadly the same cannot be said for those who have argued for Scottish independence; who have relied mainly on put downs, insults and silly smilies.

Once again, theblether, you have proved my point.

I believe not 7x7, I invite you to review what you have posted, you are constantly on the attack, your last couple of posts are a prime example of how demeaning you have chosen to be in this debate.

Calling our Parliament a " super sized county council " is a deliberate attempt by you to wind we Scots up.

[koheesti]

A lot of the arguments against Scottish independence I've read here remind me of 20+ years ago and the disintegration of the USSR, how the people don't understand how difficult independence will be, it is better to remain in the union, etc. Now, I AM NOT comparing the UK with the USSR, just saying that neither was/is too keen on allowing parts to break off and be independent. If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

Edited December 14, 2012 by koheesti

[Morakot]

If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

Hmm... I'd say if there is a vote for independence, it will be the beginning of a long road ahead: of undoing an entity that has developed over 300 years, of finding workable solutions to a whole whole range of political, economical and legal issues, of developing sensible frames of cooperation with those neighbours with whom one shares socio-geographical spaces.

"Yes" does not equate to independence, but is the beginning of an unprecedented amount of work and assorted effort, with all its advantages or disadvantages. Regardless whether one agrees with this move or not, it will irreversibly alter the socio-political landscape of these isles.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Morakot

[koheesti]

If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

Hmm... I'd say if there is a vote for independence, it will be the beginning of a long road ahead: of undoing an entity that has developed over 300 years, of finding workable solutions to a whole whole range of political, economical and legal issues, of developing sensible frames of cooperation with those neighbours with whom one shares socio-geographical spaces.

Yes, that sure does sound familiar...just substitute "300 years" with "70 years". Of course independence is more than a matter of voting. But for many people in the world the work is worth it.

Edited December 14, 2012 by koheesti

[7by7]

Calling our Parliament a " super sized county council " is a deliberate attempt by you to wind we Scots up.

So, what powers does the Scottish Parliament actually have?

What are devolved and reserved matters?

Devolution is the transfer of powers from a central to a regional authority.

The Scotland Act 1998 (an Act of the UK Parliament) created a Scottish Parliament and passed to it the powers to make laws on a range of issues. These powers were extended by the Scotland Act 2012.

The issues upon which the Scottish Parliament can make laws are known as devolved matters.

However, some issues – in general, those with a UK-wide or international impact – remain the responsibility of the UK Parliament alone.

The issues upon which only the UK Parliament can make laws are known as reserved matters.

Devolved matters

Devolved matters include:

• agriculture, forestry and fisheries
  
• education and training
  
• environment
  
• health and social services
  
• housing
  
• law and order (including the licensing of air weapons)
  
• local government
  
• sport and the arts
  
• tourism and economic development
  
• transport (including drink-driving and speed limits).
  

Reserved matters

Reserved matters include:

• benefits and social security
  
• immigration
  
• defence
  
• foreign policy
  
• employment
  
• broadcasting
  
• trade and industry
  
• nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity
  
• consumer rights
  
• data protection
  
• the Constitution.
  

Before anyone derides the above as coming from a biased or unreliable source, it's actually from the Scottish Parliament.

Note that the lists are not complete. The full list can be found in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Reserved powers not on the above list include fiscal and economic powers; the Scottish Parliament can't even raise it's own revenue or set it's own tax rates!

So, with very few exceptions, the Scottish Parliament has very little power which county councils did not already have.

Although some, maybe even most, Scots feel proud of their Parliament; to be frank, it's just another trough for politicians to dip their snouts into. Which is why we English wanted nothing to do with regional governments.

[7by7]

If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

I don't recall any post in this topic saying otherwise.

I am certain that the union will be weaker if they do, and that both the remainder of the UK and Scotland will lose out; with the Scots having more to lose than the rest of us.

But I am a democrat, and if the Scots people vote for independence they should have it.

I just wonder how long it will be before they approach the UK government asking to be let back in!

[phuketjock]

If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

I don't recall any post in this topic saying otherwise.

I am certain that the union will be weaker if they do, and that both the remainder of the UK and Scotland will lose out; with the Scots having more to lose than the rest of us.

But I am a democrat, and if the Scots people vote for independence they should have it.

I just wonder how long it will be before they approach the UK government asking to be let back in!

In your dreams 7 but just you keep on

[StreetCowboy]

If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

I don't recall any post in this topic saying otherwise.

I am certain that the union will be weaker if they do, and that both the remainder of the UK and Scotland will lose out; with the Scots having more to lose than the rest of us.

But I am a democrat, and if the Scots people vote for independence they should have it.

I just wonder how long it will be before they approach the UK government asking to be let back in!

In your dreams 7 but just you keep on

Threatening 7's dog seems a bit Jeremy Thorpe

[theblether]

Calling our Parliament a " super sized county council " is a deliberate attempt by you to wind we Scots up.

So, what powers does the Scottish Parliament actually have?

What are devolved and reserved matters?

Devolution is the transfer of powers from a central to a regional authority.

The Scotland Act 1998 (an Act of the UK Parliament) created a Scottish Parliament and passed to it the powers to make laws on a range of issues. These powers were extended by the Scotland Act 2012.

The issues upon which the Scottish Parliament can make laws are known as devolved matters.

However, some issues – in general, those with a UK-wide or international impact – remain the responsibility of the UK Parliament alone.

The issues upon which only the UK Parliament can make laws are known as reserved matters.

Devolved matters

Devolved matters include:

• agriculture, forestry and fisheries
  
• education and training
  
• environment
  
• health and social services
  
• housing
  
• law and order (including the licensing of air weapons)
  
• local government
  
• sport and the arts
  
• tourism and economic development
  
• transport (including drink-driving and speed limits).
  

Reserved matters

Reserved matters include:

• benefits and social security
  
• immigration
  
• defence
  
• foreign policy
  
• employment
  
• broadcasting
  
• trade and industry
  
• nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity
  
• consumer rights
  
• data protection
  
• the Constitution.
  

Before anyone derides the above as coming from a biased or unreliable source, it's actually from the Scottish Parliament.

Note that the lists are not complete. The full list can be found in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Reserved powers not on the above list include fiscal and economic powers; the Scottish Parliament can't even raise it's own revenue or set it's own tax rates!

So, with very few exceptions, the Scottish Parliament has very little power which county councils did not already have.

Although some, maybe even most, Scots feel proud of their Parliament; to be frank, it's just another trough for politicians to dip their snouts into. Which is why we English wanted nothing to do with regional governments.

To be frank it's the Trojan Horse to Independence. Thanks very much for that Donald Dewar

[phuketjock]

If the Scots vote for independence, they should get it.

I don't recall any post in this topic saying otherwise.

I am certain that the union will be weaker if they do, and that both the remainder of the UK and Scotland will lose out; with the Scots having more to lose than the rest of us.

But I am a democrat, and if the Scots people vote for independence they should have it.

I just wonder how long it will be before they approach the UK government asking to be let back in!

In your dreams 7 but just you keep on

Threatening 7's dog seems a bit Jeremy Thorpe

Nice one SC nice one

[Richard W]

But I am a democrat, and if the Scots people vote for independence they should have it.

I'm not convinced they should have independence from Northern Ireland without the consent of its people.

[theblether]

But I am a democrat, and if the Scots people vote for independence they should have it.

I'm not convinced they should have independence from Northern Ireland without the consent of its people.

Why?

Edited December 14, 2012 by theblether

[Richard W]

Step 1: Scotland dumps Northern Ireland.

Step 2: England dumps Northern Ireland.

Step 3: Civil war in Northern Ireland.

Step 4: Civil war in Glasgow.

OK, fair point, why should I care.

[7by7]

England, or rather the UK, wont dump Northern Ireland. It will, like all the other constituent countries, remain part of the UK for as long as the majority of it's people wish to do so.

[7by7]

To be frank it's (the Scottish Parliament) the Trojan Horse to Independence. Thanks very much for that Donald Dewar

It has achieved nothing in that area that Scottish MPs at Westminster could not have achieved.

Except, of course, when it comes to electing candidates to Westminster, the Parliament with the real power, Scottish voters have always shown what they really think of the SNP.

The referendum will also show this; even you admit that a yes vote isn't going to happen.

[theblether]

Step 1: Scotland dumps Northern Ireland.

Step 2: England dumps Northern Ireland.

Step 3: Civil war in Northern Ireland.

Step 4: Civil war in Glasgow.

OK, fair point, why should I care.

I can't believe you have just written that.

Would you like to meet the guy that works for me? a guy that spent 6 years behind bars in The Maze, an ex IRA terrorist.

Would you like to have a pint with me tonight in Bridgeton, Glasgow, the Loyalist heartland of Scotland?

Would you like me to show you The Sash my father wore?

Would you like to sit at chapel this Sunday with my mother?

Would you like to sit back in my shop and have a cup of tea, and listen to the banter between lifetime Republicans and highly dedicated members of the Orange Lodge of Scotland?

Do you honestly believe there is an appetite for a new war in Northern Ireland?

Do you understand, even remotely, what you are suggesting in Glasgow??

You need to go back to the Mid 60's Sir, and see to what extent Harold Wilson and James Callaghan panicked at the idea of a sectarian war starting in Scotland.

It will never happen, don't even suggest it, it will never happen. It will never happen for a reason so obvious that to state it here would only inflame.

I respectfully suggest that the moderators declare this Northern Ireland issue off topic. People are starting to say and suggest things that they quite clearly don't understand.

[Richard W]

Why does Northern Ireland have a right to remain in union with England, but no right to remain in a union with Scotland?

There is a certain appeal to England seceding from the UK. It even offers an approved method of leaving the EU! There's be no need to negotiate with the EU, we can just force independence though the UK parliament.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Richard W

[theblether]

Why does Northern Ireland have a right to remain in union with England, but no right to remain in a union with Scotland?

There is a certain appeal to England seceding from the UK. It even offers an approved method of leaving the EU! There's be no need to negotiate with the EU, we can just force independence though the UK parliament.

The Union is with the British crown and the Westminster Parliament, it's not with Scotland. The Crown and Westminster are the heart of the Union, please don't confuse the issues.

SinnFein is already talking about a referendum in NI, that's a matter for them, not a matter for Scotland.

[theblether]

To be frank it's (the Scottish Parliament) the Trojan Horse to Independence. Thanks very much for that Donald Dewar

It has achieved nothing in that area that Scottish MPs at Westminster could not have achieved.

Except, of course, when it comes to electing candidates to Westminster, the Parliament with the real power, Scottish voters have always shown what they really think of the SNP.

The referendum will also show this; even you admit that a yes vote isn't going to happen.

Your right, that's why we want Independence, because this devolved half way house isn't good enough.......and neither, frankly, is Westminster.

[Richard W]

You need to go back to the Mid 60's Sir, and see to what extent Harold Wilson and James Callaghan panicked at the idea of a sectarian war starting in Scotland.

It will never happen, don't even suggest it, it will never happen. It will never happen for a reason so obvious that to state it here would only inflame.

I hope things have indeed changed.

[Richard W]

The Union is with the British crown and the Westminster Parliament, it's not with Scotland. The Crown and Westminster are the heart of the Union, please don't confuse the issues.

The union is of (Northern) Ireland and *Britain*, not a submission to *Westminster*. As to the union of crowns, again it is a union of the (Northern) Irish and British crowns, not (N.) Irish and English.

[theblether]

The Union is with the British crown and the Westminster Parliament, it's not with Scotland. The Crown and Westminster are the heart of the Union, please don't confuse the issues.

The union is of (Northern) Ireland and *Britain*, not a submission to *Westminster*. As to the union of crowns, again it is a union of the (Northern) Irish and British crowns, not (N.) Irish and English.

I would say that's a misreading of history.

Without referring to any history texts so I may be wrong, Wales was defeated and annexed to the English crown during the 13th Century. The island of Ireland was annexed by the English crown during the 15th Century, or should I say, re-annexed.

Scotland wasn't involved , it was a construct of England and the English crown.

[Richard W]

Scotland wasn't involved , it was a construct of England and the English crown.

The Irish crown was formed in the 16th century. The Stuarts juggled three kingdoms. Scots got involved constructively in Ireland in the 17th century, partly with the joint plantation of Ulster but also as economic migrants. Union came at the start of the 18th century, by which time Scots were a significant element in Ireland.

[Scott]

Please keep baiting, personal comments out of the discussion.

Stay on-topic.