Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[theblether]

In the referendum; yes.

On Scotland's relationship with the EU post independence; no, you don't.

Unless after the negotiations have concluded the new Scottish government call a referendum on whether the terms are acceptable to the Scottish people.

So that means that I may have.....that will do for me.

[Richard W]

I'm right on both counts, we will stay automatically in the EU and we will have to negotiate the Treaties

Sir David said, "The outcome of such negotiations, unless they failed utterly, would be agreed amendment of the existing Treaties, not a new Accession Treaty."

So, when negotiations fail because of a lack of goodwill, the seceder may yet end up outside the EU!

there will be an agreement for Scottish nationals to have dual citizenship with the UK,

Will there?

How do you know that? Wishful thinking?

The only precedent is when Ireland left the UK.

I think a lot of independence acts set precedents. The overwhelming majority deprived some people of British nationality. I presume that old British passports will remain usable - unless the Common Travel Area ceases to include London and Edinburgh or the USA gets awkward.

Only Scots who should be personae non gratae or in crown service should need dual citizenship (Edinburgh and London). MI6 employees might need dual citizenship so they can renounce their Scottish citizenship. (I'm not sure how spy networks will be divvied up.) The Common Travel Area and EU membership will deal with most other issues.

No change will be needed to current laws for dual nationality to be held where appropriate, e.g. English-born children of Scots-born parents.

[theblether]

I'll be proven right on both counts.

The worst case scenario for the EU is to make life difficult for Scotland........however you can guarantee that won't stop those with an agenda making a lot of noise, and I still predict that this will end up in the courts before the Referendum date.

You see, Barroso didn't need to reply to the House of Lords committee letter, he only has a duty to respond to the Government of the UK. In Fact, it's surreal to expect the President of the EU to reply to every scabby assed committee in Europe. Barroso couldn't wait to get involved as he wanted to make a point to the Catalan separatists.

He's involved Spanish domestic politics in his role as EU President, he will come to regret that.

[Richard W]

A good percentage of us will choose to forgo Scottish passports, and continue to fly under the banner of Britain, many more will take the dual nationality option, and a fair few will travel travel under a Scottish passport alone. That's a matter of personal choice and conscience.

Would this be an asymmetric relationship, or are you suggesting a common nationality with the possible exceptions of treason and extra-territorial jurisdiction by nationality? Would this be a permanent option, or just a transitional arrangement?

While I don't object to the idea of common nationality in principle, I note that the Commonwealth abandoned this idea. Removing common citizenship would also be tricky - would it need to be a joint decision?

[Thaddeus]

A good percentage of us will choose to forgo Scottish passports, and continue to fly under the banner of Britain, many more will take the dual nationality option, and a fair few will travel travel under a Scottish passport alone. That's a matter of personal choice and conscience.

That smacks of wanting your cake and eating it.

[theblether]

@RichardW. I reckon it would be transitional, probably over a 10 year passport cycle. The EU citizenship issue trumps all, especially the Commonwealth issue.

@Thaddeus, No it doesn't, it's a practical solution.There are 750,000 Scots in England, many who have been there for decades, some may decide to remain UK passport holders as they have no intention of relocating. That's up to them.

[StreetCowboy]

@RichardW. I reckon it would be transitional, probably over a 10 year passport cycle. The EU citizenship issue trumps all, especially the Commonwealth issue.

@Thaddeus, No it doesn't, it's a practical solution.There are 750,000 Scots in England, many who have been there for decades, some may decide to remain UK passport holders as they have no intention of relocating. That's up to them.

Until they get their EU membership resolved, and their freedom to move and work within the Union is guaranteed, Scottish residents within the UK would be prudent to hang on to their British passports.

It's not clear to me if me or my children will be eligible for Scottish passports. Certainly, we are not eligible to vote on the matter.

SC

[7by7]

A good percentage of us will choose to forgo Scottish passports, and continue to fly under the banner of Britain, many more will take the dual nationality option, and a fair few will travel travel under a Scottish passport alone. That's a matter of personal choice and conscience.

That smacks of wanting your cake and eating it.

This is yet another area which shows that, as I said earlier, the Scottish independence lobby don't actually want full independence.

What they want is all the benefits of being members of the UK, with none of the obligations.

[7by7]

he only has a duty to respond to the Government of the UK

And the UK government aren't that interested in asking, because they already know the answer.

it's surreal to expect the President of the EU to reply to every scabby assed committee in Europe.

Indeed, and this includes the Scottish Parliament; despite the SNP's claims and efforts to the contrary.

[Richard W]

The practical solution is the Common Travel Area. Continued EU membership would also help. The CTA deals with Scots and English resident in the other's country, except where questions of loyalty arise.

For passports, the sensible transition arrangement is that passports of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should remain valid for use by citizens of the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland and by citizens of the Kingdom of England. Is there a problem with this? England should be able to accept deportees who came into legitimate possession of unexpired passports to the same extent as today, and in rare cases deport them on to Scotland, so UK of GB & NI passports should remain acceptable to foreign countries. This seems to be in accord with the notion of phasing out of transitional arrangements over a passport cycle. The domain of applicability should be travel documents, not nationality.

I said same 'same extent as today' because possession of an unexpired UK passport should not enable one to enter the UK at present if stripped of British nationality. Those stripped of the northern or the southern nationality but retaining the other will probably need to obtain a passport of the other - being stripped of (as opposed to never having) one of the nationalities will probably be adequate grounds for other countries to refuse admission, and certainly for placing the UK of GB & NI passport on the list of invalid passports.

[StreetCowboy]

The practical solution is the Common Travel Area. Continued EU membership would also help. The CTA deals with Scots and English resident in the other's country, except where questions of loyalty arise.

For passports, the sensible transition arrangement is that passports of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should remain valid for use by citizens of the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland and by citizens of the Kingdom of England. Is there a problem with this? England should be able to accept deportees who came into legitimate possession of unexpired passports to the same extent as today, and in rare cases deport them on to Scotland, so UK of GB & NI passports should remain acceptable to foreign countries. This seems to be in accord with the notion of phasing out of transitional arrangements over a passport cycle. The domain of applicability should be travel documents, not nationality.

I said same 'same extent as today' because possession of an unexpired UK passport should not enable one to enter the UK at present if stripped of British nationality. Those stripped of the northern or the southern nationality but retaining the other will probably need to obtain a passport of the other - being stripped of (as opposed to never having) one of the nationalities will probably be adequate grounds for other countries to refuse admission, and certainly for placing the UK of GB & NI passport on the list of invalid passports.

I take it "the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland" and "Kingdom of England" was a deliberate attempt at humour. Well done.

SC

[Richard W]

I take it "the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland" and "Kingdom of England" was a deliberate attempt at humour. Well done.

It's a serious suggestion. The Blether has said he will address this issue. I don't seriously believe England can secede without taking on most of the national debt, and I think we must allow Wales to stay with England proper.

[theblether]

he only has a duty to respond to the Government of the UK

And the UK government aren't that interested in asking, because they already know the answer.

it's surreal to expect the President of the EU to reply to every scabby assed committee in Europe.

Indeed, and this includes the Scottish Parliament; despite the SNP's claims and efforts to the contrary.

Round and round in circles we go.......the UK government childishly don't want to ask!!.....as they fear the answer. If they knew it was as convoluted and complicated as you seem to think then they would ASK THE QUESTION!!......and terrify the Scottish populace with our guaranteed expulsion into the bankrupt and backward fringes of Europe.

They know the answer doesn't suit them....so they won't ask......childish I'm telling you.

[theblether]

The practical solution is the Common Travel Area. Continued EU membership would also help. The CTA deals with Scots and English resident in the other's country, except where questions of loyalty arise.

For passports, the sensible transition arrangement is that passports of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should remain valid for use by citizens of the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland and by citizens of the Kingdom of England. Is there a problem with this? England should be able to accept deportees who came into legitimate possession of unexpired passports to the same extent as today, and in rare cases deport them on to Scotland, so UK of GB & NI passports should remain acceptable to foreign countries. This seems to be in accord with the notion of phasing out of transitional arrangements over a passport cycle. The domain of applicability should be travel documents, not nationality.

I said same 'same extent as today' because possession of an unexpired UK passport should not enable one to enter the UK at present if stripped of British nationality. Those stripped of the northern or the southern nationality but retaining the other will probably need to obtain a passport of the other - being stripped of (as opposed to never having) one of the nationalities will probably be adequate grounds for other countries to refuse admission, and certainly for placing the UK of GB & NI passport on the list of invalid passports.

There won't be any stripping of nationalities, no one will find themselves stuck in arrival halls at airports waiting for ratification of new Scottish travel documents.

There seems to be an appetite by some to create as much friction as possible in the event of a Yes vote, you will find that the vast majority of issues will be addressed with ease, and without rancour.

[theblether]

@RichardW ...... I believe I've already addressed the issue of Wales and NI, they have a relationship with Westminster, it will not be affected by the Scots seceding from the Union, each component part of the UK would need to vote within it's own area and electorate to secede.

[theblether]

he only has a duty to respond to the Government of the UK

And the UK government aren't that interested in asking, because they already know the answer.

it's surreal to expect the President of the EU to reply to every scabby assed committee in Europe.

Indeed, and this includes the Scottish Parliament; despite the SNP's claims and efforts to the contrary.

............and yet you're the guy that's made great play of the fact that the SNP did not ask for advice on this matter. The SNP are fully aware that it's the UK Government that has to ask.....re-read the thread again and remind yourself of the last time we went down this repetitive blind alley.

[theblether]

A good percentage of us will choose to forgo Scottish passports, and continue to fly under the banner of Britain, many more will take the dual nationality option, and a fair few will travel travel under a Scottish passport alone. That's a matter of personal choice and conscience.

That smacks of wanting your cake and eating it.

This is yet another area which shows that, as I said earlier, the Scottish independence lobby don't actually want full independence.

What they want is all the benefits of being members of the UK, with none of the obligations.

That would be great.....where do we sign?

[phuketjock]

The practical solution is the Common Travel Area. Continued EU membership would also help. The CTA deals with Scots and English resident in the other's country, except where questions of loyalty arise.

For passports, the sensible transition arrangement is that passports of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should remain valid for use by citizens of the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland and by citizens of the Kingdom of England. Is there a problem with this? England should be able to accept deportees who came into legitimate possession of unexpired passports to the same extent as today, and in rare cases deport them on to Scotland, so UK of GB & NI passports should remain acceptable to foreign countries. This seems to be in accord with the notion of phasing out of transitional arrangements over a passport cycle. The domain of applicability should be travel documents, not nationality.

I said same 'same extent as today' because possession of an unexpired UK passport should not enable one to enter the UK at present if stripped of British nationality. Those stripped of the northern or the southern nationality but retaining the other will probably need to obtain a passport of the other - being stripped of (as opposed to never having) one of the nationalities will probably be adequate grounds for other countries to refuse admission, and certainly for placing the UK of GB & NI passport on the list of invalid passports.

I don't think I have ever read such a long and convoluted bunch of utter nonsense,

what planet are you on man???

Who is talking about stripping anyone of their nationality??

Why would anyone wish to??

Get a grip!!!!!

Your whole post is ridiculous, but you do have a vivid imagination.

Edited December 18, 2012 by phuketjock

[7by7]

theblether,

You started out by saying that Scotland was part of the EU and Scottish nationals were EU citizens and could not have that taken away from them.

You have been proved wrong on that point, even by the judge you have quoted, and are now saying that Scotland's position in the EU post independence is subject to negotiation!

Something I and others have been saying and the UK government knew all along.

Yet you insist that you were right all along, even though your position has swung a full 180 degrees. Amazing; are you sure you're not a politician?

BTW, I made no 'great play' of the SNP not asking for advice on this matter; maybe you should read the whole thread again. I may have mentioned the tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money they spent looking for advice, and the lies they then told the Scottish people, but that was it.

phuketjock,

If Scotland chooses to leave the UK they wont have been stripped of their British nationality; they will have voluntarily given it up and become Scottish citizens instead; as the Irish became Irish citizens when what is now the RoI left the UK.

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

Can you answer it?

Edited December 18, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

No I haven't....everyone has agreed that there is no mechanism in EU law to strip any current EU citizen of citizenship. Full stop.

[theblether]

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I will proven correct on this matter too, only the Little Englander nutters believe that the Scots will be marched to the border and drummed out of the Corp.

[StreetCowboy]

No I haven't....everyone has agreed that there is no mechanism in EU law to strip any current EU citizen of citizenship. Full stop.

I thought EU citizens were citizens of EU countries, rather than actually citizens of the EU in its own right. The only evidence I have of my EU citizenship is my British passport. So am I to understand that we will be able to retain our British citizenship after independence? Or is independence contingent on admission to the EU?

SC

[phuketjock]

theblether,

You started out by saying that Scotland was part of the EU and Scottish nationals were EU citizens and could not have that taken away from them.

You have been proved wrong on that point, even by the judge you have quoted, and are now saying that Scotland's position in the EU post independence is subject to negotiation!

Something I and others have been saying and the UK government knew all along.

Yet you insist that you were right all along, even though your position has swung a full 180 degrees. Amazing; are you sure you're not a politician?

BTW, I made no 'great play' of the SNP not asking for advice on this matter; maybe you should read the whole thread again. I may have mentioned the tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money they spent looking for advice, and the lies they then told the Scottish people, but that was it.

phuketjock,

If Scotland chooses to leave the UK they wont have been stripped of their British nationality; they will have voluntarily given it up and become Scottish citizens instead; as the Irish became Irish citizens when what is now the RoI left the UK.

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

Can you answer it?

First history now geography.

We are all British and European by geography,and Scots now are Scottish citizens as the English are

English citizens, I have never felt British by nationality so I will not be missing anything, but I have no

objection if the English living in Scotland want to become Scottish post independance, they will be very

welcome. As far as me wanting to remain British you can shove your British nationality and your

citizenship firmly where the sun don't shine thank you.!!!!!

But I will still be British and european by geography!!!!

Edited December 18, 2012 by phuketjock

[StreetCowboy]

theblether,

You started out by saying that Scotland was part of the EU and Scottish nationals were EU citizens and could not have that taken away from them.

You have been proved wrong on that point, even by the judge you have quoted, and are now saying that Scotland's position in the EU post independence is subject to negotiation!

Something I and others have been saying and the UK government knew all along.

Yet you insist that you were right all along, even though your position has swung a full 180 degrees. Amazing; are you sure you're not a politician?

BTW, I made no 'great play' of the SNP not asking for advice on this matter; maybe you should read the whole thread again. I may have mentioned the tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money they spent looking for advice, and the lies they then told the Scottish people, but that was it.

phuketjock,

If Scotland chooses to leave the UK they wont have been stripped of their British nationality; they will have voluntarily given it up and become Scottish citizens instead; as the Irish became Irish citizens when what is now the RoI left the UK.

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

Can you answer it?

First history now geography.

We are all British and European by geography,and Scots now are Scottish citizens as the English are

English citizens, I have never felt British by nationality so I will not be missing anything, but I have no

objection if the English living in Scotland want to become Scottish post independance, they will be very

welcome. As far as me wanting to remain British you can shove your British nationality and your

citizenship firmly where the sun don't shine thank you.!!!!!

But I will still be British and european by geography!!!!

Though possibly not by citizenship?

[theblether]

theblether,

You started out by saying that Scotland was part of the EU and Scottish nationals were EU citizens and could not have that taken away from them.

You have been proved wrong on that point, even by the judge you have quoted, and are now saying that Scotland's position in the EU post independence is subject to negotiation!

Something I and others have been saying and the UK government knew all along.

Yet you insist that you were right all along, even though your position has swung a full 180 degrees. Amazing; are you sure you're not a politician?

BTW, I made no 'great play' of the SNP not asking for advice on this matter; maybe you should read the whole thread again. I may have mentioned the tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money they spent looking for advice, and the lies they then told the Scottish people, but that was it.

phuketjock,

If Scotland chooses to leave the UK they wont have been stripped of their British nationality; they will have voluntarily given it up and become Scottish citizens instead; as the Irish became Irish citizens when what is now the RoI left the UK.

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

Can you answer it?

First history now geography.

We are all British and European by geography,and Scots now are Scottish citizens as the English are

English citizens, I have never felt British by nationality so I will not be missing anything, but I have no

objection if the English living in Scotland want to become Scottish post independance, they will be very

welcome. As far as me wanting to remain British you can shove your British nationality and your

citizenship firmly where the sun don't shine thank you.!!!!!

But I will still be British and european by geography!!!!

Though possibly not by citizenship?

Up to you......you'll get a choice Sir, you'll get a choice

[Richard W]

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

The response appears to be:

No I haven't....everyone has agreed that there is no mechanism in EU law to strip any current EU citizen of citizenship. Full stop.

• There is a mechanism. Stripping someone of British citizenship strips them of EU citizenship that arises from the British citizenship. Thus, David Hicks and Anna Chapman have been stripped of EU citizenship.
  
• Austrian citizen Janko Rottmann naturalised as German, thereby losing Austrian ctizenship. His application has now been found to be fraudulent. Bavaria has deprived him of German citizenship, and thereby rendered him stateless. The European Court of Justice has ruled that this deprivation validly removes his citizenship of the EU.
  
• If Scotland leaves the UK, the question is whether Scots with no connection to other parts of the UK and its territories will lose UK citizenship.
  
• When East Bengal seceded from Pakistan, Pakistani citizens in East Bengal lost Pakistani citizenship.
  
• When Jamaica became independent, citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies who immediately acquired Jamaican citizenship lost citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies if they had no other connection to the British Empire. (I choose the example of Jamaica because I had already looked it up, not because there is anything unusual about it. Barrack Obama, if he ever had British citizenship, similarly lost it to become Kenyan.) This provision is in Section 2 of the Jamaica Independence Act 1962 - look up the unamended version.
  

[folium]

theblether,

You started out by saying that Scotland was part of the EU and Scottish nationals were EU citizens and could not have that taken away from them.

You have been proved wrong on that point, even by the judge you have quoted, and are now saying that Scotland's position in the EU post independence is subject to negotiation!

Something I and others have been saying and the UK government knew all along.

Yet you insist that you were right all along, even though your position has swung a full 180 degrees. Amazing; are you sure you're not a politician?

BTW, I made no 'great play' of the SNP not asking for advice on this matter; maybe you should read the whole thread again. I may have mentioned the tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money they spent looking for advice, and the lies they then told the Scottish people, but that was it.

phuketjock,

If Scotland chooses to leave the UK they wont have been stripped of their British nationality; they will have voluntarily given it up and become Scottish citizens instead; as the Irish became Irish citizens when what is now the RoI left the UK.

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

Can you answer it?

First history now geography.

We are all British and European by geography,and Scots now are Scottish citizens as the English are

English citizens, I have never felt British by nationality so I will not be missing anything, but I have no

objection if the English living in Scotland want to become Scottish post independance, they will be very

welcome. As far as me wanting to remain British you can shove your British nationality and your

citizenship firmly where the sun don't shine thank you.!!!!!

But I will still be British and european by geography!!!!

Sorry to disappoint now that we have moved on from history to geography lessons, but geographically you are not European at all.

The "continent" of Europe is a political fallacy dreamt up in order that there could be a separate continent at the western end of Eurasia. To prove the point, where is the eastern boundary of this alleged "continent" of Europe? We live on the single, continuous continental plate of Eurasia that stretches from Vladivostock to the eastern half of Iceland. So that would actually make you Scottish by nationality but also Asian, or if you are that fussed, Western Asian! So that makes us (all so called Europeans that is) cousins of the Thais; how appropriate!

[Richard W]

I will proven correct on this matter too, only the Little Englander nutters believe that the Scots will be marched to the border and drummed out of the Corp.

Well, I suppose it could happen if EU negotiations drag on and Scotland doesn't sign up to the Common Travel Area. However, I don't think the Scots will be stupid enough to let that happen, and I don't think the government in London will consider it worth the effort.

The London government might try kicking out Scottish criminals - I don't know who would benefit most from an expulsions of one another's criminals. My first estimate is that there would be no net gain, but it was tried with Irish criminals.

[StreetCowboy]

I will proven correct on this matter too, only the Little Englander nutters believe that the Scots will be marched to the border and drummed out of the Corp.

Well, I suppose it could happen if EU negotiations drag on and Scotland doesn't sign up to the Common Travel Area. However, I don't think the Scots will be stupid enough to let that happen, and I don't think the government in London will consider it worth the effort.

The London government might try kicking out Scottish criminals - I don't know who would benefit most from an expulsions of one another's criminals. My first estimate is that there would be no net gain, but it was tried with Irish criminals.

Westminster might struggle without their expense-fiddlers. Though I doubt Holyrood is much better

SC

[StreetCowboy]

theblether,

You started out by saying that Scotland was part of the EU and Scottish nationals were EU citizens and could not have that taken away from them.

You have been proved wrong on that point, even by the judge you have quoted, and are now saying that Scotland's position in the EU post independence is subject to negotiation!

Something I and others have been saying and the UK government knew all along.

Yet you insist that you were right all along, even though your position has swung a full 180 degrees. Amazing; are you sure you're not a politician?

BTW, I made no 'great play' of the SNP not asking for advice on this matter; maybe you should read the whole thread again. I may have mentioned the tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money they spent looking for advice, and the lies they then told the Scottish people, but that was it.

phuketjock,

If Scotland chooses to leave the UK they wont have been stripped of their British nationality; they will have voluntarily given it up and become Scottish citizens instead; as the Irish became Irish citizens when what is now the RoI left the UK.

Why should Scots retain British citizenship if Scotland leaves the UK?

I asked theblether this question; he's ignored it, as is usual with questions he doesn't like.

Can you answer it?

First history now geography.

We are all British and European by geography,and Scots now are Scottish citizens as the English are

English citizens, I have never felt British by nationality so I will not be missing anything, but I have no

objection if the English living in Scotland want to become Scottish post independance, they will be very

welcome. As far as me wanting to remain British you can shove your British nationality and your

citizenship firmly where the sun don't shine thank you.!!!!!

But I will still be British and european by geography!!!!

Sorry to disappoint now that we have moved on from history to geography lessons, but geographically you are not European at all.

The "continent" of Europe is a political fallacy dreamt up in order that there could be a separate continent at the western end of Eurasia. To prove the point, where is the eastern boundary of this alleged "continent" of Europe? We live on the single, continuous continental plate of Eurasia that stretches from Vladivostock to the eastern half of Iceland. So that would actually make you Scottish by nationality but also Asian, or if you are that fussed, Western Asian! So that makes us (all so called Europeans that is) cousins of the Thais; how appropriate!

I think most people consider the Urals to more or less delimit the Eastern edge of Europe.

Personally, I include Lebanon (rugby league European Cup) and Israel (Eurovision song contest).

SC