Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[jpinx]

If Scotland joins the euro, the banks will come under the new rules currently being thrashed out between Germany, France, et al. If the Euro survives the greek debacle, taking on Scotland will be easy

[StreetCowboy]

Financial regulation is a reserved issue to the UK government, making it a Scottish issue is a nonsense.

The framework which led to the collapse of the banking system was designed by various governments over decades, I fon't excuse Gordon Brown for his role in the disaster, far from it, I cannot stand that egotistical basket case, however he had to contend with various Acts of Parliament that set in train the psychology that led to the explosion in credit provision and surreal risk taking.

It was a problem made in Westminster.

I don't think so. I think it was commercial mismanagement which was endemic in the banking system in many countries.

Perhaps the decision to prop the banks up was a mistake.

Perhaps the policy of not interfering in the business of commercial companies was a mistake. However, personally I resent it when government interferes in my business, even when it is ostensibly for the benefit of my customers.

But at the end of the day it was poor risk management by the banks that led to the problem.

SC

[StreetCowboy]

If Scotland joins the euro, the banks will come under the new rules currently being thrashed out between Germany, France, et al. If the Euro survives the greek debacle, taking on Scotland will be easy

I would have thought it would be prudent for Scotland to maintain its current currency controls. However, I can see how independence might affect foreign confidence in our currency, leading to inconvenience for Scots overseas. I hope that we are unlikely to move towards our own currency under the control of Holyrood.

SC

[jpinx]

theblether might be right about banking regulation being reserved to westminster whilst Scotland is still part of UK, but as an independent country that would be a nonsense.

The timing is good because the euro has had it's disaster and is now having decent foundations pumped under it in the form of proper banking regualtion evenly applied to all euro countries. Given that reform continuing it's a no-brainer for an independent Scotland to join the euro.

[theblether]

Financial regulation is a reserved issue to the UK government, making it a Scottish issue is a nonsense.

The framework which led to the collapse of the banking system was designed by various governments over decades, I fon't excuse Gordon Brown for his role in the disaster, far from it, I cannot stand that egotistical basket case, however he had to contend with various Acts of Parliament that set in train the psychology that led to the explosion in credit provision and surreal risk taking.

It was a problem made in Westminster.

I don't think so. I think it was commercial mismanagement which was endemic in the banking system in many countries.

Perhaps the decision to prop the banks up was a mistake.

Perhaps the policy of not interfering in the business of commercial companies was a mistake. However, personally I resent it when government interferes in my business, even when it is ostensibly for the benefit of my customers.

But at the end of the day it was poor risk management by the banks that led to the problem.

SC

I can guarantee so........it was the countries that allowed lax oversight of their banking systems that paid the highest price. It was the political class constantly tweaking with the rules to bribe the electorate that ultimately caused the problem.

Control of the economy and tax raising should be handed to the Bank of England to prevent shysters like Nigel Lawson and Gordon Brown making promises they can't keep, and spending money they don't have.

[theblether]

theblether might be right about banking regulation being reserved to westminster whilst Scotland is still part of UK, but as an independent country that would be a nonsense.

The timing is good because the euro has had it's disaster and is now having decent foundations pumped under it in the form of proper banking regualtion evenly applied to all euro countries. Given that reform continuing it's a no-brainer for an independent Scotland to join the euro.

I am correct about Financial Regulation being a reserved matter, the Euro only has two potential outcomes, a break up, ( now unlikely ) or as you say, a now being properly grounded with appropriate regulation.

It was bizarre that it was Germany that was first to break the original covenant, but not as bizarre as to allow Greece to join in the first place. It was another example of allowing politicians to interfere with financial probity......with disastrous results.

Politicians are world class at spending other people's money, and writing cheques that they won't have to cash, as the people that need to pay are still a twinkle in their fathers eye.

Edited December 19, 2012 by theblether

[jpinx]

theblether might be right about banking regulation being reserved to westminster whilst Scotland is still part of UK, but as an independent country that would be a nonsense.

The timing is good because the euro has had it's disaster and is now having decent foundations pumped under it in the form of proper banking regualtion evenly applied to all euro countries. Given that reform continuing it's a no-brainer for an independent Scotland to join the euro.

I am correct about Financial Regulation being a reserved matter, the Euro only has two potential outcomes, a break up, ( now unlikely ) or as you say, a now being properly grounded with appropriate regulation.

It was bizarre that it was Germany that was first to break the original covenant, but not as bizarre as to allow Greece to join in the first place. It was another example of allowing politicians to interfere with financial probity......with disastrous results.

Politicians are world class at spending other people's money, and writing cheques that they won't have to cash, as the people that need to pay are still a twinkle in their fathers eye.

I'm right with you on these points

[7by7]

7x7. ... your wasting your time, your wrong in fact, and by practise Scotland will have the Treaties signed and will be a full member by Independence Day. Your the only guy in the World that thinks that Scotland won't be an EU member in the end up.

I have never said that an independent Scotland will not eventually become a member of the EU. You should read my posts before making such misinformed comments; you wont look so foolish that way.

What I am saying is that Scotland will not automatically become an EU member state the day it leaves the UK. I am saying that an independent Scotland will have to try and negotiate it's membership and that it will end up having to accept whatever terms the EU see fit to impose.

Who agrees with me?

The EU president, the EU commission, the governments of at least three EU member states, and that doesn't include the UK government, and as far as I can tell every political party in Scotland except the SNP!

When will you learn; just because Salmond says something will happen does not mean that it will.

I'll ask you again, while I'm at it: what evidence do you have that Scots will retain their British citizenship should Scotland leave the UK?

I suspect it is another line of Salmond's that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

[theblether]

As I was saying earlier, one strand of our new economic policy will be manipulation of Corporation Tax. The new independent Scottish government will make it a priority to tailor Corporation Tax policy to suit various different business categories.

You see, we have the smarts to know that there's a trade off between raising revenue and encouraging businesses to invest and grow, so we will effectively come to arrangements with Companies based upon their particular needs.

This current one size fits all Corporation Tax policy is mental eh?........

I wonder who'll bite first.

[jpinx]

7x7. ... your wasting your time, your wrong in fact, and by practise Scotland will have the Treaties signed and will be a full member by Independence Day. Your the only guy in the World that thinks that Scotland won't be an EU member in the end up.

I have never said that an independent Scotland will not eventually become a member of the EU. You should read my posts before making such misinformed comments; you wont look so foolish that way.

What I am saying is that Scotland will not automatically become an EU member state the day it leaves the UK. I am saying that an independent Scotland will have to try and negotiate it's membership and that it will end up having to accept whatever terms the EU see fit to impose.

Who agrees with me?

The EU president, the EU commission, the governments of at least three EU member states, and that doesn't include the UK government, and as far as I can tell every political party in Scotland except the SNP!

When will you learn; just because Salmond says something will happen does not mean that it will.

I'll ask you again, while I'm at it: what evidence do you have that Scots will retain their British citizenship should Scotland leave the UK?

I suspect it is another line of Salmond's that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Such red herrings !!!

Membership of an independent Scotland has been under discussion within the EU for a while now already, and UK already permits dual nationality.

Any more NON issues?

Edited December 19, 2012 by jpinx

[jpinx]

As I was saying earlier, one strand of our new economic policy will be manipulation of Corporation Tax. The new independent Scottish government will make it a priority to tailor Corporation Tax policy to suit various different business categories.

You see, we have the smarts to know that there's a trade off between raising revenue and encouraging businesses to invest and grow, so we will effectively come to arrangements with Companies based upon their particular needs.

This current one size fits all Corporation Tax policy is mental eh?........

I wonder who'll bite first.

ME !!!!

I have had businesses in England and in Scotland, as well as other countries around the world. Corporation tax as per the UK model is iniquitous and just makes accountants very creative. The taxman has himself tied in so many knots that he can't get at the real tax dodgers -- the BIG companies who hive off earnings to foreign parts. The IR even admit that they are making a mess of it!

[theblether]

Totally correct jpinx........

7x7. ... your wasting your time, your wrong in fact, and by practise Scotland will have the Treaties signed and will be a full member by Independence Day. Your the only guy in the World that thinks that Scotland won't be an EU member in the end up.

I have never said that an independent Scotland will not eventually become a member of the EU. You should read my posts before making such misinformed comments; you wont look so foolish that way.

What I am saying is that Scotland will not automatically become an EU member state the day it leaves the UK. I am saying that an independent Scotland will have to try and negotiate it's membership and that it will end up having to accept whatever terms the EU see fit to impose.

Who agrees with me?

The EU president, the EU commission, the governments of at least three EU member states, and that doesn't include the UK government, and as far as I can tell every political party in Scotland except the SNP!

When will you learn; just because Salmond says something will happen does not mean that it will.

I'll ask you again, while I'm at it: what evidence do you have that Scots will retain their British citizenship should Scotland leave the UK?

I suspect it is another line of Salmond's that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Go get me the link where Salmond talks about Scots retaining British citizenship after the Referendum.

ps. Calm down, that's not nice calling me foolish, your obsessed about our role within the EU and at the end of it all you admit we will be members anyway?. Hmmm, a touch of the Alice in Wonderlands there.......

Arguing for hours and hours about a point and at the end of it saying.....well "old chap, you are totally correct but......."

I mean, really..........

[theblether]

As I was saying earlier, one strand of our new economic policy will be manipulation of Corporation Tax. The new independent Scottish government will make it a priority to tailor Corporation Tax policy to suit various different business categories.

You see, we have the smarts to know that there's a trade off between raising revenue and encouraging businesses to invest and grow, so we will effectively come to arrangements with Companies based upon their particular needs.

This current one size fits all Corporation Tax policy is mental eh?........

I wonder who'll bite first.

ME !!!!

I have had businesses in England and in Scotland, as well as other countries around the world. Corporation tax as per the UK model is iniquitous and just makes accountants very creative. The taxman has himself tied in so many knots that he can't get at the real tax dodgers -- the BIG companies who hive off earnings to foreign parts. The IR even admit that they are making a mess of it!

Yup.....and now they are starting to manipulate the Corporation Tax policies to suit their own narrow agenda, I'll wait for our Google acolytes to catch up with this story before disclosing it though. I need to give them a chance to find it, ( difficult if you don't know what question to ask ) then make up and instant opinion that they will go to the grave defending, hence the term........Instant Googlers.

It seems the government is starting to recognize the brilliance of Alex Salmond........the man that will lead the Scots to their first democratic vote on the future of the nation in history, he's a genius, a real genius.

[phuketjock]

More great news for an up and coming independant Scotland!!!

Source;-

www.scotland.gov.uk/news

Swinney delivers on jobs and growth

19/12/2012

A programme of capital projects estimated to support approximately 2,000 jobs across Scotland in 2013-14 has been given the green light today.

Finance Secretary John Swinney said work on the £205 million package of construction and maintenance projects will begin this year.

It includes:

• £50 million for housing,
  
• £22 million each for transport and regeneration projects,
  
• £19 million for further and higher education,
  
• £11 million for economic development projects,
  
• £10 million for health maintenance,
  
• £10 million for the maintenance of the justice system estate
  
• over £7 million for forestry, national parks and tourism
  
• and almost £7 million for culture and heritage projects
  

Local Government will receive over £46 million to support capital projects that are ready to go and additional to their current investment plans.

Mr Swinney last month wrote to Chancellor George Osborne calling on the UK Government to provide an immediate targeted boost to capital investment to protect the recovery in the short term and provide the infrastructure necessary to facilitate long term economic growth.

This followed a 33 per cent cut to Scotland’s capital budget by the UK Government.

Mr Swinney said:

“This Government acted swiftly to provide an immediate capital stimulus to Scotland’s economy at the start of the 2008 financial crisis. As a consequence, Scotland’s experience of recession has been shorter and shallower than that of the UK

“That experience has informed our repeated calls to the Chancellor for the kind of economic stimulus that would put recovery on firmer foundations. I welcome the fact that, after four years, the UK Government has now listened and made £394 million additional capital available up to 2014-15, reducing the cut to Scotland capital budget to 26 per cent. This is partly undermined, however, by a reduction in our resource budget, giving us a net gain of £330 million in total.

“Just two weeks after the Chancellor’s Autumn statement I can now confirm a programme of shovel ready projects we will take forward with immediate effect. The range of projects for this year and next will see jobs created across Scotland, provide an immediate boost to Scotland’s construction sector giving a firmer basis to the so far fragile recovery and strengthen the foundations for our economy over the long term.

“That two year delay in funding from the UK Government highlights once again the limitations of the current constitutional arrangements, in particular our inability to borrow. In the absence of full economic and fiscal powers the Scottish Government will continue to act quickly in Scotland’s interests with all the resources and powers available to. With the full range of powers and resources of independence we could do much more.”

Roll on 2014

[phuketjock]

@ folium

My old school folly

Calderglen High “excellent” school

19/12/2012

Calderglen High has become the first secondary school to be evaluated as excellent since criteria were strengthened in line with Curriculum for Excellence.

Minister for Learning Alasdair Allan visited the East Kilbride school today to congratulate staff, pupils and parents on publication of the inspection letter by Education Scotland.

Key strengths at the school include:

• Learning and achievement are of particularly high quality
  
• The school community exemplifies high expectations, support and mutual respect
  
• Young people feel very secure and know that staff value their views
  
• The school has developed highly effective ways of ensuring all young people have the support they need to achieve well.
  

Dr Allan said:

“It is an outstanding achievement for Calderglen High to become the first Scottish school marked as excellent since criteria were strengthened in line with Curriculum for Excellence.

“The school is showing exactly what can be achieved under the new curriculum and I am delighted to offer my congratulations to all those involved in the school.

“Calderglen is a fantastic example of how the new curriculum will benefit pupils across Scotland as they learn in new and exciting ways, across subjects to develop the knowledge and skills they need for the jobs of the future.”

Only Joking

[7by7]

Looks like Salmond and his mob are spending their UK government subsidies while they can; but what will happen when that well dries up after independence?

[MAJIC]

I believe that most banks have owners who are virtually all based in London. I do not believe there is such a thing as a "Scottish Bank" except in name only. Look around the world . the Bank of New Zealand is owned by Australia

Banking is a non-issue in the independence debate. The issue is much more about what tax revenues come from who and go to where. There will be tears over the carve-up on independence day, but that is to be expected and certainly will not prevent the will of the people being enacted - whatever they choose. Let's hope it's a better crafted carve-up than the ones when the Euro was launched or when the Scottish parliament was established.

"Banking is a non-issue in the independence debate"

Well of course Scottish Banking is a non issue now,because the English Government bailed them out! or did you conveniently forget?

[7by7]

Membership of an independent Scotland has been under discussion within the EU for a while now already

Source, please.

You go on to say "(The) UK already permits dual nationality."

Indeed it does; but it does not automatically grant it to anyone who wants it.

The RoI used to be part of the UK. It's citizens do not also have British nationality; why should an independent Scotland be treated any differently?

7by7, on 2012-12-19 20:59:43, said:

I'll ask you again, while I'm at it: what evidence do you have that Scots will retain their British citizenship should Scotland leave the UK?

I suspect it is another line of Salmond's that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Go get me the link where Salmond talks about Scots retaining British citizenship after the Referendum

Do you know what the phrase "I suspect" means?

I have asked you many times where you got the information from; you ignored the request.

So I made a guess.

If that guess is wrong, then where did you get this information from?

Arguing for hours and hours about a point and at the end of it saying.....well "old chap, you are totally correct but......."

Re read both our posts on the matter; you will see that my position has not changed at all.

Yours on the other hand has changed considerably!

BTW, nice to see that you have finally come out of the closet and confirmed what many of us suspected all along. That is you now say 'us' and 'we' and 'our' when referring to the SNP.

[theblether]

I believe that most banks have owners who are virtually all based in London. I do not believe there is such a thing as a "Scottish Bank" except in name only. Look around the world . the Bank of New Zealand is owned by Australia

Banking is a non-issue in the independence debate. The issue is much more about what tax revenues come from who and go to where. There will be tears over the carve-up on independence day, but that is to be expected and certainly will not prevent the will of the people being enacted - whatever they choose. Let's hope it's a better crafted carve-up than the ones when the Euro was launched or when the Scottish parliament was established.

"Banking is a non-issue in the independence debate"

Well of course Scottish Banking is a non issue now,because the English Government bailed them out! or did you conveniently forget?

The English government????!

Edited December 19, 2012 by theblether

[MAJIC]

I believe that most banks have owners who are virtually all based in London. I do not believe there is such a thing as a "Scottish Bank" except in name only. Look around the world . the Bank of New Zealand is owned by Australia

Banking is a non-issue in the independence debate. The issue is much more about what tax revenues come from who and go to where. There will be tears over the carve-up on independence day, but that is to be expected and certainly will not prevent the will of the people being enacted - whatever they choose. Let's hope it's a better crafted carve-up than the ones when the Euro was launched or when the Scottish parliament was established.

"Banking is a non-issue in the independence debate"

Well of course Scottish Banking is a non issue now,because the English Government bailed them out! or did you conveniently forget?

The English government????!

Actually at the time it was made up more of a Scottish Government,under a Scottish PM.

[theblether]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

[MAJIC]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

Well according to the Conservative / Alliance,the present financial crisis we are in was caused by the previous Government,under Scottish power,of which you have so much faith in.

But I will concede,to help stave off the imminent financial meltdown,Gordon Brown had no option other than to bail out the Banks,and Scottish Banks were heavily bailed out to the tune of £Billions,(which I can't be bothered to look up) they are now owned by the Tax Payers,yet another thing to be decided after the Referendum,which Country owns the Scottish Banks?

[theblether]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

Well according to the Conservative / Alliance,the present financial crisis we are in was caused by the previous Government,under Scottish power,of which you have so much faith in.

But I will concede,to help stave off the imminent financial meltdown,Gordon Brown had no option other than to bail out the Banks,and Scottish Banks were heavily bailed out to the tune of £Billions,(which I can't be bothered to look up) they are now owned by the Tax Payers,yet another thing to be decided after the Referendum,which Country owns the Scottish Banks?

I was only pulling your ear about saying it was an English government.............I mentioned recently in the topic that in as much as I dislike Gordon Brown, he did have to work under the parameters of previous Financial Acts of Parliament. I remember a figure, ( which may well be wrong ) that something like 75% of government spending is non discretionary, as it's bound up in practise, contract and promise due to previous governments commitments.

That leaves very little wriggle room for each new generation of politicians.

[endure]

That leaves very little wriggle room for each new generation of politicians.

But wriggle they do...

[Rob8891]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

Well according to the Conservative / Alliance,the present financial crisis we are in was caused by the previous Government,under Scottish power,of which you have so much faith in.

But I will concede,to help stave off the imminent financial meltdown,Gordon Brown had no option other than to bail out the Banks,and Scottish Banks were heavily bailed out to the tune of £Billions,(which I can't be bothered to look up) they are now owned by the Tax Payers,yet another thing to be decided after the Referendum,which Country owns the Scottish Banks?

Nothing new here.... Tell me ONE government that has stood up before the electorate and said "Yes, it was us! We stuffed up...."

Furthermore, the previous government was NOT "under Scottish power". It was a UK government, comprising ministers from many parts of the UK.

[Richard W]

What I am saying is that Scotland will not automatically become an EU member state the day it leaves the UK. I am saying that an independent Scotland will have to try and negotiate it's membership and that it will end up having to accept whatever terms the EU see fit to impose.

Who agrees with me?

In what follows, I talk of an English state and a Scottish state because I do not want to prejudge how the four nations will be grouped.

I believe any independence legislation will have to be acceptable to the immediate parliamentary majorities in the two resulting states. (How would the initial Scottish parliament be formed? There is the argument that unnaturalised Greeks should not vote for the sovereign Scottish parliament.)

As far as the EU is concerned, one possible output would be real devomax:

1. There would be an English and a Scottish state, sovereign in all but name.

2. The UK would remain as a shell, with no coercive powers. Its sole purpose would be to perform actions that cannot be shared out between antagonistic Scottish and English governments, such as vetoes. It would handle payments to and from the EU, and service the pre-existing national debt. It would rely on agreed payments from the Scottish and English governments. It might conceivably administer pre-existing SERPS obligations.

3. British citizenship would be split into British (English) citizenship and British (Scottish) citizenship. As at present, an individual would be able to hold multiple types of British nationality. The English government would control the former, the Scottish government the latter. It may be necessary to split other categories of citizenship; I am just proposing a principle here.

4. British appointment powers, such as for EU commissioners, would be shared by England and Scotland proportionately taking powers.

Could this scheme work? In extremis, would it be acceptable to Scotland? If so, then Scotland and England can remain in the EU no matter how much Spain and Germany fight to discourage separatism. I do not suggest that this scheme is a good scheme - I merely suggest that it is a viable as a fallback position for the negotiation of Scotland's position in the EU. In short, I believe that an independent Scotland would start as part of the EU, using the Euro or English pound as it chooses.

I suspect this scheme would enable Scotland to join the UN. After all, the Soviet Union, the Byelorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR were founder members, so it seems a state does not need to be a sovereign state to join!

Edited December 20, 2012 by Richard W

[StreetCowboy]

The four nations are currently grouped as one Nation as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The regional government of those nations is proposing to hold a referendum on secession. Why do you think this would affect the status of any of the other three nations, which would, until that Nation changed its name, continue to be the (possibly inappropriately named) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

As far as I know, no-one has proposed federalising the United Kingdom as an option.

The federal states of the USA and separately of Canada, the federal emirates of the UAE, and the federal states of Malaysia, do not enjoy separate membership of the UN. The Special Administrative Regions of China do not enjoy separate membership of the UN, nor does the Republic of China

SC

[jpinx]

What I am saying is that Scotland will not automatically become an EU member state the day it leaves the UK. I am saying that an independent Scotland will have to try and negotiate it's membership and that it will end up having to accept whatever terms the EU see fit to impose.

Who agrees with me?

In what follows, I talk of an English state and a Scottish state because I do not want to prejudge how the four nations will be grouped.

I believe any independence legislation will have to be acceptable to the immediate parliamentary majorities in the two resulting states. (How would the initial Scottish parliament be formed? There is the argument that unnaturalised Greeks should not vote for the sovereign Scottish parliament.)

As far as the EU is concerned, one possible output would be real devomax:

1. There would be an English and a Scottish state, sovereign in all but name.

2. The UK would remain as a shell, with no coercive powers. Its sole purpose would be to perform actions that cannot be shared out between antagonistic Scottish and English governments, such as vetoes. It would handle payments to and from the EU, and service the pre-existing national debt. It would rely on agreed payments from the Scottish and English governments. It might conceivably administer pre-existing SERPS obligations.

3. British citizenship would be split into British (English) citizenship and British (Scottish) citizenship. As at present, an individual would be able to hold multiple types of British nationality. The English government would control the former, the Scottish government the latter. It may be necessary to split other categories of citizenship; I am just proposing a principle here.

4. British appointment powers, such as for EU commissioners, would be shared by England and Scotland proportionately taking powers.

Could this scheme work? In extremis, would it be acceptable to Scotland? If so, then Scotland and England can remain in the EU no matter how much Spain and Germany fight to discourage separatism. I do not suggest that this scheme is a good scheme - I merely suggest that it is a viable as a fallback position for the negotiation of Scotland's position in the EU. In short, I believe that an independent Scotland would start as part of the EU, using the Euro or English pound as it chooses.

I suspect this scheme would enable Scotland to join the UN. After all, the Soviet Union, the Byelorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR were founder members, so it seems a state does not need to be a sovereign state to join!

Unworkable and unnecessary. As I have said before - Scotland is already negotiating with the EU in an informal way, so there will be no significant delay in membership after independence day.

Scotland already has it's own currency - no need to use English money, but I believe that joining the euro will follow fairly soon.

Scotland will have it's own revenue stream, no need to rely on UK handouts after independence. All the talk of Scotland being poor is facile. The population pays taxes to UK, and after independence will simply pay those taxes to the Scottish tax collector. Pensions are terribly badly managed by UK government at the moment and are funded year by year. There is no pile of money invested according to what everyone has paid all their lives. People badly misunderstand government economics and fail to realise that all governments live hand-to-mouth. Nothing is invested long term in reality. They take the taxes and spend them, and borrow against future tax earnings. Any private individual or small business that tried to operate the ways governments do would be broke in a month!!

Enough theorising for now - can we have some unbiased comment from people who actually know how Scotland works and understand how a country's economy is run?

Edited December 20, 2012 by jpinx

[Richard W]

In what follows, I talk of an English state and a Scottish state because I do not want to prejudge how the four nations will be grouped.

(Details of scheme dismissed below by jpinx not repeated.)

Unworkable and unnecessary. As I have said before - Scotland is already negotiating with the EU in an informal way, so there will be no significant delay in membership after independence day.

How many days is 'not significant'? Some Scots abroad in the EU would find themselves working illegally if there is any delay. The scheme only needs to be credible to force negotiations and avoid a continental diktat.

Scotland already has it's own currency - no need to use English money, but I believe that joining the euro will follow fairly soon.

Since when has Scotland been using its own currency? I was under the impression that it used sterling.

I understood that the SNP was proposing to continue using the pound. Was it proposing that Scotland be in monetary union with neither England nor Germany?

Scotland will have it's own revenue stream, no need to rely on UK handouts after independence.

I was not suggesting that it would receive handouts from England. If, at a government level, Scotland and England remain net contributors, perhaps there is no need for the moneys to pass through a fictional UK. However, I can see a problem with some EU disbursements having to flow to a member government, and therefore a need for a 'UK government' account to receive the money, which would then be passed on to the relevant English or Scottish agency.

If Scotland or England became net recipients at the government level, there would be a potential problem in that the shell UK government would have the coercive power of withholding payments to such agencies.

I suppose government bonds could be split into English and Scottish bonds even while the fiction of a UK government is being maintained. However, handling the pre-split national debt would significantly lessen the ability of a shell UK government to withhold payments from England or Scotland. If the shell is a net recipient of funds from Scottish government and from English government, it should lack coercive financial powers.

[nontabury]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

Well according to the Conservative / Alliance,the present financial crisis we are in was caused by the previous Government,under Scottish power,of which you have so much faith in.

But I will concede,to help stave off the imminent financial meltdown,Gordon Brown had no option other than to bail out the Banks,and Scottish Banks were heavily bailed out to the tune of Billions,(which I can't be bothered to look up) they are now owned by the Tax Payers,yet another thing to be decided after the Referendum,which Country owns the Scottish Banks?

Nothing new here.... Tell me ONE government that has stood up before the electorate and said "Yes, it was us! We stuffed up...."

Furthermore, the previous government was NOT "under Scottish power". It was a UK government, comprising ministers from many parts of the UK.

Partly correct,the previous Labour governments did have a large percentage of Scots.

Example Tony Blair first cabinet included the following Scott's

Tony Blair

Gordon Brown

A Darling

R Cook

G Strong

D Dewar

Lord Irvine

G Robertson

D Clark

This means 9 out of 23 cabinet members were Scottish, approx 30%

While the Scottish population consisted of approx 8% of the Uk.

One British cabinet since the war had 16 Scots out of 19.

So do these figures show us that Scottish politicians make good governments?.

Roll on the SNP

Edited December 20, 2012 by nontabury