Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[theblether]

@SC. The Lib Dems are federalists

[Richard W]

The four nations are currently grouped as one Nation as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The regional government of those nations is proposing to hold a referendum on secession. Why do you think this would affect the status of any of the other three nations, which would, until that Nation changed its name, continue to be the (possibly inappropriately named) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I have seen no evidence that it is not more appropriate for Northern Ireland to remain in union with Scotland than in union with England. While Ireland as a whole might have more connection with England than with Scotland, I do not believe this is so for Northern Ireland.

Wales has more connection with England than with Scotland or Northern Ireland, but if Scotland may abandon Northern Ireland, why cannot England abandon Wales and Northern Ireland?

Are the Scots Nationalists objecting to what they see as English rule, or do they also reject their kin in Northern Ireland?

[jpinx]

Independence is just that. An independent Scotland will have to work out it's own way of doing things. A lot of these things are already in advanced discussions. Dividing up the finances (national debt, EU money, etc) is just one aspect of what will have to happen, but the fiscal independence is only one aspect of what is happening here. Scotland will not choose to be independent because of money, but because it wants to be free of England

BTW - the specific points raised are trivial. Ecuador has no currency and does well by using the US dollar. Ireland managed to get independence from UK and the beaurocrats just *HAD* to sort out the national debt, taxation and lots of other financial issues. Making the beaurocracy work for the will of the population is something we have largely forgotten how to do.

[jpinx]

The four nations are currently grouped as one Nation as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The regional government of those nations is proposing to hold a referendum on secession. Why do you think this would affect the status of any of the other three nations, which would, until that Nation changed its name, continue to be the (possibly inappropriately named) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I have seen no evidence that it is not more appropriate for Northern Ireland to remain in union with Scotland than in union with England. While Ireland as a whole might have more connection with England than with Scotland, I do not believe this is so for Northern Ireland.

Wales has more connection with England than with Scotland or Northern Ireland, but if Scotland may abandon Northern Ireland, why cannot England abandon Wales and Northern Ireland?

Are the Scots Nationalists objecting to what they see as English rule, or do they also reject their kin in Northern Ireland?

heh -- you're not from around here - are you ?

[Richard W]

BTW - the specific points raised are trivial. Ecuador has no currency and does well by using the US dollar.

The objection had been raised that the other EU members would make a commitment to ultimately using the euro a requirement for Scotland joining. I was simply suggesting that there is a fallback position where Scotland gets independence within the EU in all but name and may use the English pound if it so chooses.

[StreetCowboy]

BTW - the specific points raised are trivial. Ecuador has no currency and does well by using the US dollar.

The objection had been raised that the other EU members would make a commitment to ultimately using the euro a requirement for Scotland joining. I was simply suggesting that there is a fallback position where Scotland gets independence within the EU in all but name and may use the English pound if it so chooses.

I see no reason for Scotland to stop using the pound sterling as the medium of trade following independence. We could alternatively choose to use the Euro, or any other candidate currency. However, given the extent of our cross-border trade at the moment, sterling would seem like a logical choice. I don't know what the Bank of England does with the deposits that the Scottish banks place there to back their notes, but I believe that the Scottish pound should be as robust against speculators as the Hong Kong dollar

Do we anticipate that companies incorporated in Scotland will continue to list predominantly on the London Stock Exchange, or do we envisage that a Scottish exchange will be established? There may, indeed, already be such an exchange...

SC

[theblether]

The companies will continue to list in London, it's normal and standard practise for companies to list in countries outwith their own.

Your right re the currency too.....many of the issues that are put up as barriers to independence are red herrings. The Bank of England could be doing without the uncertainty around the currency and they will most likely press for a period where the currencies are equivalent and under their ultimate control. It would be a disaster for the UK economy if there was a run on the pound due to the uncertainty.

[theblether]

@jpinx. RichardW has already been pulled for suggesting a civil war in Glasgow, he would be better off dropping the subject of NI.

@RichardW, the good news is your contentions have been discussed among my friends, so I suppose you have been successful in raising comment. The bad news is you would be humiliated if you heard the reaction, from both sides.

[theblether]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

Well according to the Conservative / Alliance,the present financial crisis we are in was caused by the previous Government,under Scottish power,of which you have so much faith in.

But I will concede,to help stave off the imminent financial meltdown,Gordon Brown had no option other than to bail out the Banks,and Scottish Banks were heavily bailed out to the tune of Billions,(which I can't be bothered to look up) they are now owned by the Tax Payers,yet another thing to be decided after the Referendum,which Country owns the Scottish Banks?

Nothing new here.... Tell me ONE government that has stood up before the electorate and said "Yes, it was us! We stuffed up...."

Furthermore, the previous government was NOT "under Scottish power". It was a UK government, comprising ministers from many parts of the UK.

Partly correct,the previous Labour governments did have a large percentage of Scots.

Example Tony Blair first cabinet included the following Scott's

Tony Blair

Gordon Brown

A Darling

R Cook

G Strong

D Dewar

Lord Irvine

G Robertson

D Clark

This means 9 out of 23 cabinet members were Scottish, approx 30%

While the Scottish population consisted of approx 8% of the Uk.

One British cabinet since the war had 16 Scots out of 19.

So do these figures show us that Scottish politicians make good governments?.

Roll on the SNP

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

[jpinx]

Now we're in for fun - theblether is awake at last

[Richard W]

@jpinx. RichardW has already been pulled for suggesting a civil war in Glasgow, he would be better off dropping the subject of NI.

@RichardW, the good news is your contentions have been discussed among my friends, so I suppose you have been successful in raising comment. The bad news is you would be humiliated if you heard the reaction, from both sides.

Do enlighten me on the issue of Northern Ireland. So far all I have heard is that troubles in Northern Ireland will not spread to Scotland, and I have found some reassuring independent evidence that neighbourhood trumps denomination.

Do you have evidence on what union is most palatable to the people(s) of Northern Ireland? You seem to think that 'none' is not so bad as was once feared.

[jpinx]

@jpinx. RichardW has already been pulled for suggesting a civil war in Glasgow, he would be better off dropping the subject of NI.

@RichardW, the good news is your contentions have been discussed among my friends, so I suppose you have been successful in raising comment. The bad news is you would be humiliated if you heard the reaction, from both sides.

Do enlighten me on the issue of Northern Ireland. So far all I have heard is that troubles in Northern Ireland will not spread to Scotland, and I have found some reassuring independent evidence that neighbourhood trumps denomination.

Do you have evidence on what union is most palatable to the people(s) of Northern Ireland? You seem to think that 'none' is not so bad as was once feared.

You need to google the connections between Ireland & Scotland..As I said before -- you're obviously not from around here

[MAJIC]

^^ Good job, could you imagine the state the country would have been in if we didn't have Scots in charge when the Financial crisis hit? Wow.

Well according to the Conservative / Alliance,the present financial crisis we are in was caused by the previous Government,under Scottish power,of which you have so much faith in.

But I will concede,to help stave off the imminent financial meltdown,Gordon Brown had no option other than to bail out the Banks,and Scottish Banks were heavily bailed out to the tune of £Billions,(which I can't be bothered to look up) they are now owned by the Tax Payers,yet another thing to be decided after the Referendum,which Country owns the Scottish Banks?

Nothing new here.... Tell me ONE government that has stood up before the electorate and said "Yes, it was us! We stuffed up...."

Furthermore, the previous government was NOT "under Scottish power". It was a UK government, comprising ministers from many parts of the UK.

And with 2 Scottish PMs the whole term!

[jpinx]

Where someone was born was not something of his choice. How he votes in a referendum is. Life is quirky

[nontabury]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

[theblether]

@jpinx. RichardW has already been pulled for suggesting a civil war in Glasgow, he would be better off dropping the subject of NI.

@RichardW, the good news is your contentions have been discussed among my friends, so I suppose you have been successful in raising comment. The bad news is you would be humiliated if you heard the reaction, from both sides.

Do enlighten me on the issue of Northern Ireland. So far all I have heard is that troubles in Northern Ireland will not spread to Scotland, and I have found some reassuring independent evidence that neighbourhood trumps denomination.

Do you have evidence on what union is most palatable to the people(s) of Northern Ireland? You seem to think that 'none' is not so bad as was once feared.

No.........there are certain members here that I will respond to that have knowledge of the matter, outside that I will not get into a debate about the NI issue.

Please forgive my abruptness.

[theblether]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

Nontabury......I really can't be bothered getting the exact figures but here's the gist of it.......Parliamentary Labour Party returnees

1983 Election 209, 60 Scottish constituent MP's plus English constituents represented by Scots.

1987............same same

1992...........270, same same the Scottish numbers.

Your banging away about Scots having about 30% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

Gawd, don't just look at stats, analyse them will you???

[folium]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

Nontabury......I really can't be bothered getting the exact figures but here's the gist of it.......Parliamentary Labour Party returnees

1983 Election 209, 60 Scottish constituent MP's plus English constituents represented by Scots.

1987............same same

1992...........270, same same the Scottish numbers.

Your banging away about Scots having about 30% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

Gawd, don't just look at stats, analyse them will you???

While we are on the subject of crunching numbers re elections, take a look at the 2010 General Election:

Conservatives 306 seats

Labour 258

Lib Dems 57

SNP 6

Others 23

If you take out the Scottish seats the results would have been:

Conservatives 305

Labour 217

Lib Dems 46

Others 23

Thus Labour loses 16% of its seats and the Lib Dems 19% of theirs.

With the Sinn Fein darlings refusing to take their 5 seats in Westminster a majority government needed 294 seats. Thus no Scottish MPs = no coalition government, and a Tory majority of 12.

On the other hand Labour will really miss Scotland if it goes independent, the Lib Dems would be wounded,and the Tories would be ecstatic with the possibility of a near permanent grip on Westminster, which would be guaranteed if they got rid of Wales and NI also (on 2010 numbers the Tories would have had a 61 seat majority on a total of 533 seats in England on its own).

[jpinx]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

Nontabury......I really can't be bothered getting the exact figures but here's the gist of it.......Parliamentary Labour Party returnees

1983 Election 209, 60 Scottish constituent MP's plus English constituents represented by Scots.

1987............same same

1992...........270, same same the Scottish numbers.

Your banging away about Scots having about 30% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

Gawd, don't just look at stats, analyse them will you???

While we are on the subject of crunching numbers re elections, take a look at the 2010 General Election:

Conservatives 306 seats

Labour 258

Lib Dems 57

SNP 6

Others 23

If you take out the Scottish seats the results would have been:

Conservatives 305

Labour 217

Lib Dems 46

Others 23

Thus Labour loses 16% of its seats and the Lib Dems 19% of theirs.

With the Sinn Fein darlings refusing to take their 5 seats in Westminster a majority government needed 294 seats. Thus no Scottish MPs = no coalition government, and a Tory majority of 12.

On the other hand Labour will really miss Scotland if it goes independent, the Lib Dems would be wounded,and the Tories would be ecstatic with the possibility of a near permanent grip on Westminster, which would be guaranteed if they got rid of Wales and NI also (on 2010 numbers the Tories would have had a 61 seat majority on a total of 533 seats in England on its own).

I quite like that scenario. UK would revert to conservatism and Scotland's politics might evolve into something more meaningful.

[Richard W]

Your banging away about Scots having about 30% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

It still amounts to disproportionate Scottish control. However, the real issue may well be Scots going native once in England. Perhaps the solution to the ails would be to move the British Parliament to Glasgow!

[folium]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term contrasts with a more murky future, an analysis that meshes with various other non-Scottish Government forecasts.

Scottish independence: nice idea, shame about the economics?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20777300

[nontabury]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

Nontabury......I really can't be bothered getting the exact figures but here's the gist of it.......Parliamentary Labour Party returnees

1983 Election 209, 60 Scottish constituent MP's plus English constituents represented by Scots.

1987............same same

1992...........270, same same the Scottish numbers.

Your banging away about Scots having about 40% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

Gawd, don't just look at stats, analyse them will you???

Smokescreen AGAIN, I gave the figure for when the Labour party was returned to power in 1997,not from when they were in opposition,they regained power in 1997 with 418 members from the whole of the UK, 56 of them from Scotland(approx 15%)they in fact took less than 10% of the Labour vote,yet they still took approx 40% of the cabinet seats.

Throughout this thread you have consistently,stated/implied directly or indirectly,that those wicked and incompetent English are responsible for the present day state of the UK,especially Scotland,you've then gone on to recommend that the Scottish electorate should place their future solely in the hands of Scottish politicians,this sounds to me,that your asking them to jump out of the pan,and into the roaring fire.

It would be better if the SNP were to dump ALEX Salmonds and his left wing deputy and replace them with Sir ALEX Ferguson,"oh" but you cannot,why because Sir ALEX lives in the year 2012.he wants the union to continue.

P.s I 'm not a M.United fan.

[phuketjock]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

Nontabury......I really can't be bothered getting the exact figures but here's the gist of it.......Parliamentary Labour Party returnees

1983 Election 209, 60 Scottish constituent MP's plus English constituents represented by Scots.

1987............same same

1992...........270, same same the Scottish numbers.

Your banging away about Scots having about 30% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

Gawd, don't just look at stats, analyse them will you???

While we are on the subject of crunching numbers re elections, take a look at the 2010 General Election:

Conservatives 306 seats

Labour 258

Lib Dems 57

SNP 6

Others 23

If you take out the Scottish seats the results would have been:

Conservatives 305

Labour 217

Lib Dems 46

Others 23

Thus Labour loses 16% of its seats and the Lib Dems 19% of theirs.

With the Sinn Fein darlings refusing to take their 5 seats in Westminster a majority government needed 294 seats. Thus no Scottish MPs = no coalition government, and a Tory majority of 12.

On the other hand Labour will really miss Scotland if it goes independent, the Lib Dems would be wounded,and the Tories would be ecstatic with the possibility of a near permanent grip on Westminster, which would be guaranteed if they got rid of Wales and NI also (on 2010 numbers the Tories would have had a 61 seat majority on a total of 533 seats in England on its own).

And what may I ask has this got to do with independance for Scotland ?????

[folium]

TheBlether

I can't be bothered dissecting this nonsense you are writing, you're only proving that you have little grasp of the dynamics of British politics......especially Labour Party politics.

//////////:///::;:;;;;;/////////

If I was to state that a large % of the managers of the English premiership teams are Scottish,including the most successful post war manager,Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes,amongst others,would you call this nonsense,of course not,you would take it as a sense of pride,yet when I state the Scottish make up of British governments,you rubbish my post.Well I cannot say I'm surprised,throughout this thread you have consistently disregarded every point made by other members,with whom you are in disagreement with,you are never prepared to accept that maybe,just maybe, another poster is right and you are wrong.

Having lived in Thailand,a country I love for many years,I like many ex-pats am still puzzled as to why the majority of Thai's never seem to question their way of life,in fact in my experience it's very rare to hear a Thai criticise anything about Thailand, even when most things seem to only benefit the so called elite.But at least the Thais have an excuse,they are taught from an early age to accept the status quo,this seems to be enforced during their school years,YOU on the other hand have benefitted from a superior Scottish education,your use of the written English is to be complemented,however I think your ability to question your indoctrination leaves much to be desired.

P.S My apologies,I incorrectly stated that 9 Scott's out of a total cabinet of 23 is approx 30%,

It should have been of course approx 40%. Not bad for an oppressed minority.

Nontabury......I really can't be bothered getting the exact figures but here's the gist of it.......Parliamentary Labour Party returnees

1983 Election 209, 60 Scottish constituent MP's plus English constituents represented by Scots.

1987............same same

1992...........270, same same the Scottish numbers.

Your banging away about Scots having about 30% of the cabinet seats at one point........whoop de whoo......they represented roughly that level of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the period mentioned.

Gawd, don't just look at stats, analyse them will you???

While we are on the subject of crunching numbers re elections, take a look at the 2010 General Election:

Conservatives 306 seats

Labour 258

Lib Dems 57

SNP 6

Others 23

If you take out the Scottish seats the results would have been:

Conservatives 305

Labour 217

Lib Dems 46

Others 23

Thus Labour loses 16% of its seats and the Lib Dems 19% of theirs.

With the Sinn Fein darlings refusing to take their 5 seats in Westminster a majority government needed 294 seats. Thus no Scottish MPs = no coalition government, and a Tory majority of 12.

On the other hand Labour will really miss Scotland if it goes independent, the Lib Dems would be wounded,and the Tories would be ecstatic with the possibility of a near permanent grip on Westminster, which would be guaranteed if they got rid of Wales and NI also (on 2010 numbers the Tories would have had a 61 seat majority on a total of 533 seats in England on its own).

And what may I ask has this got to do with independance for Scotland ?????

Try reading it....

[phuketjock]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term contrasts with a more murky future, an analysis that meshes with various other non-Scottish Government forecasts.

Scottish independence: nice idea, shame about the economics?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-20777300

From your very own source yet again folium

" A Scottish government spokesman said: "With 24 billion barrels of oil still to be recovered with a wholesale value of £1.5 trillion, the North Sea oil and gas sector has a bright future, underlined just this week with Dana Petroleum's announcement of a £1bn development, demonstrating the continuing growth of Scotland's energy sector.

"Professor Kemp's latest analysis shows the Treasury will have taken £10 billion from Scotland's North Sea in 2011-12 at a time when Scotland is facing the prospect of up to five more years of UK austerity

"The CPPR acknowledge the OBR's forecasts, which are pessimistic relative to many others, should not be seen as the definitive picture, with the UK government's own energy department expecting oil prices of $120 in 2017.

"An independent Scotland will be able to face the difficult financial choices ahead from a stronger position than in the UK and use the full range of economic levers to support growth, boost revenues and deliver public services." "

You really should read your whole source before you jump in!!!!

[folium]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term contrasts with a more murky future, an analysis that meshes with various other non-Scottish Government forecasts.

Scottish independence: nice idea, shame about the economics?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-20777300

From your very own source yet again folium

" A Scottish government spokesman said: "With 24 billion barrels of oil still to be recovered with a wholesale value of £1.5 trillion, the North Sea oil and gas sector has a bright future, underlined just this week with Dana Petroleum's announcement of a £1bn development, demonstrating the continuing growth of Scotland's energy sector.

"Professor Kemp's latest analysis shows the Treasury will have taken £10 billion from Scotland's North Sea in 2011-12 at a time when Scotland is facing the prospect of up to five more years of UK austerity

"The CPPR acknowledge the OBR's forecasts, which are pessimistic relative to many others, should not be seen as the definitive picture, with the UK government's own energy department expecting oil prices of $120 in 2017.

"An independent Scotland will be able to face the difficult financial choices ahead from a stronger position than in the UK and use the full range of economic levers to support growth, boost revenues and deliver public services." "

You really should read your whole source before you jump in!!!!

Try reading the whole piece not just the bits that fit your argument.

PS Scottish government spokesman are unlikely to be unbiased.

[Scott]

Some posters have been getting a bit caustic with others. You are welcome to your opinion and you are welcome to disagree with others, but you are expected to be civil and to treat others respectfully.

[jpinx]

Play nicely guys -- all these reports are only other people's opinions -- perhaps based on a different analysis from your own and published more widely than TV

[phuketjock]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term contrasts with a more murky future, an analysis that meshes with various other non-Scottish Government forecasts.

Scottish independence: nice idea, shame about the economics?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-20777300

From your very own source yet again folium

" A Scottish government spokesman said: "With 24 billion barrels of oil still to be recovered with a wholesale value of £1.5 trillion, the North Sea oil and gas sector has a bright future, underlined just this week with Dana Petroleum's announcement of a £1bn development, demonstrating the continuing growth of Scotland's energy sector.

"Professor Kemp's latest analysis shows the Treasury will have taken £10 billion from Scotland's North Sea in 2011-12 at a time when Scotland is facing the prospect of up to five more years of UK austerity

"The CPPR acknowledge the OBR's forecasts, which are pessimistic relative to many others, should not be seen as the definitive picture, with the UK government's own energy department expecting oil prices of $120 in 2017.

"An independent Scotland will be able to face the difficult financial choices ahead from a stronger position than in the UK and use the full range of economic levers to support growth, boost revenues and deliver public services." "

You really should read your whole source before you jump in!!!!

Try reading the whole piece not just the bits that fit your argument.

PS Scottish government spokesman are unlikely to be unbiased.

I'm sorry folly I can pick the bits I like just as you can pick the bits you like and

you were the one who chose to post the article so that makes all of it fair game

It's a matter of opinion what is biased and what is not so if you don't wish me to

use it don't give me the ammo simple as that sunshine.

[folium]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term contrasts with a more murky future, an analysis that meshes with various other non-Scottish Government forecasts.

Scottish independence: nice idea, shame about the economics?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-20777300

From your very own source yet again folium

" A Scottish government spokesman said: "With 24 billion barrels of oil still to be recovered with a wholesale value of £1.5 trillion, the North Sea oil and gas sector has a bright future, underlined just this week with Dana Petroleum's announcement of a £1bn development, demonstrating the continuing growth of Scotland's energy sector.

"Professor Kemp's latest analysis shows the Treasury will have taken £10 billion from Scotland's North Sea in 2011-12 at a time when Scotland is facing the prospect of up to five more years of UK austerity

"The CPPR acknowledge the OBR's forecasts, which are pessimistic relative to many others, should not be seen as the definitive picture, with the UK government's own energy department expecting oil prices of $120 in 2017.

"An independent Scotland will be able to face the difficult financial choices ahead from a stronger position than in the UK and use the full range of economic levers to support growth, boost revenues and deliver public services." "

You really should read your whole source before you jump in!!!!

Try reading the whole piece not just the bits that fit your argument.

PS Scottish government spokesman are unlikely to be unbiased.

I'm sorry folly I can pick the bits I like just as you can pick the bits you like and

you were the one who chose to post the article so that makes all of it fair game

It's a matter of opinion what is biased and what is not so if you don't wish me to

use it don't give me the ammo simple as that sunshine.

Decent reporting should consider or at least allow both sides of an argument to be aired. If I was in the business of cherry picking why would I include the whole link which includes the section from the Scottish Government spokesperson?

Posting a link is supposedly to allow other posters to read it and consider its validity/accuracy/relevance.

It would be refreshing if you actually made a contribution to the debate. If you think this report is inaccurate tell us why and state your case as to why Scotland's economic future as a possibly independent nation is secure.

The relevance of the 2010 General Election results is simple. If Scotland is out of the equation, who benefits and who loses out? Furthermore how does this impact the whole debate re Scottish independence and what might the long term implications be for the various parties involved? What therefore might be the agenda for these different parties?

Any thoughts?