Unusual Situation

[huwgo]

Hello forum geniuses

I have an unusual situation and would appreciate some advice.

I am an Australian animator. A group of my friends (also animators) have scraped together some funding to create an animated series. It is a moderate amount of funding for this type of project and will not last long in Australia. However, if we can produce our series in Thailand we can afford to live for 12m - the right amount of time to complete the project. It all comes down to the living costs - the lower the living costs are, the more animators we can afford and therefor the more work we can accomplish.

There are 6 of us currently, and we may need to hire 2 more people in Thailand.

This is an unusual situation as there is NO REVENUE being generated from this project. It is not like a regular business with a products to sell and a regular cashflow. We are entirely self funded and when that funding runs out we are finished.

Because of the nature of our enterprise I am unsure of whether we need to formally establish a company. My understanding of the visa situation is:

Option 1.

To establish a company I will need $2 million baht which will be held in some form of a bond, and hire 4 locals. The problem with the 'bond' is this will tie up the majority of our funding and we wont be able to function, making our project dead before it even starts.

Option 2.

We apply for type B working visas and apply for work permits. However, in this situation there would be no formal job offer to go with the visa/work permit application as there is no company.

Option 3.

Go for the single entry type O visa and just chance it without a working permit. I would be very unhappy with this scenario. I don't want to break any laws.

I also have a Thai partner and I was originally planning to move to Thailand in 2014 to live until this opportunity arose. I don't know how relevant this is but I would very much appreciate any feedback and advice

Thanks very much

[oldsalt]

Re Option 1, I am not up to date with the latest regulations, but setting up a company and employing four local Thais, will get you one work permit. There is a ratio of expat employees to Thai employees - and it is not generous. If the six of you are planning to live and work in Thailand, this option is not the answer.

Re Option 2 - you cannot apply for the B visa without a letter from your intended employer, including a copy of that employer's company registration certificate.

Option 3 - When I first came to Thailand 14 years ago, I met someone who had been working here, without a work permit, for three years. But that was also in the days of easy visa runs.

[moe666]

You would be doing work in thailand without permit illigal. Having said that there are a lot of people living in Thailand who work and run business on the internet. Keep your heads down, do not talk to people you do not know maybe you will be ok.

[CDB]

Yes, legally your only option is to set up a company. However, contrary to what the previous posters have mentioned, you may be able to avoid the issues with Thai/Farang ratio and investment capital.

The industry that you are in is one that Thailand actively wishes to develop so there is a good chance you are eligible for Board of Investment privileges which can reduce the total required capital to as little as 1 million baht and the ratio of Thais to foreigners to anything negotiable. The capital brought in can be working capital used to pay wages. You would definitely need to hire some Thais or show some contribution to Thailand.

Your first stop should be talking directly to the people at the BOI. You do NOT need to go through a lawyer.

My quick impression is that if you wanted to do multiple projects in Thailand over a few years and planned on hiring and training some locals, you would get what you need, but for a one-off project it would be much harder. That said, you can "sell" to the BOI on the basis of what you hope/expect to bring to Thailand, rather than what you have a 100% secured.

Don't be dissuaded by the naysayers!

[sysardman]

Re Option 1, I am not up to date with the latest regulations, but setting up a company and employing four local Thais, will get you one work permit. There is a ratio of expat employees to Thai employees - and it is not generous. If the six of you are planning to live and work in Thailand, this option is not the answer.

Re Option 2 - you cannot apply for the B visa without a letter from your intended employer, including a copy of that employer's company registration certificate.

Option 3 - When I first came to Thailand 14 years ago, I met someone who had been working here, without a work permit, for three years. But that was also in the days of easy visa runs.

As Oldsalt did not actually address your 3rd option I will add my bit - a single entry Non O would only give you 90 days but there are many conditions attached to obtaining this visa (search other threads or check your local consulate). If you meet these conditions you can extend it a further 60 days - so either way you would fall short if you intend staying a year. If you were to meet Non O visa requirements then you would be better getting a 12 month multi entry to start with.

[Mario2008]

Re Option 1, I am not up to date with the latest regulations, but setting up a company and employing four local Thais, will get you one work permit. There is a ratio of expat employees to Thai employees - and it is not generous. If the six of you are planning to live and work in Thailand, this option is not the answer.

Re Option 2 - you cannot apply for the B visa without a letter from your intended employer, including a copy of that employer's company registration certificate.

Option 3 - When I first came to Thailand 14 years ago, I met someone who had been working here, without a work permit, for three years. But that was also in the days of easy visa runs.

As Oldsalt did not actually address your 3rd option I will add my bit - a single entry Non O would only give you 90 days but there are many conditions attached to obtaining this visa (search other threads or check your local consulate). If you meet these conditions you can extend it a further 60 days - so either way you would fall short if you intend staying a year. If you were to meet Non O visa requirements then you would be better getting a 12 month multi entry to start with.

A non-O cannot be extended by another 60 days. A 60 day extension is only available to people married to a Thai or having a child with Thai nationality and can be given on any kind of entry.

[sysardman]

Yes, legally your only option is to set up a company. However, contrary to what the previous posters have mentioned, you may be able to avoid the issues with Thai/Farang ratio and investment capital.

The industry that you are in is one that Thailand actively wishes to develop so there is a good chance you are eligible for Board of Investment privileges which can reduce the total required capital to as little as 1 million baht and the ratio of Thais to foreigners to anything negotiable. The capital brought in can be working capital used to pay wages. You would definitely need to hire some Thais or show some contribution to Thailand.

Your first stop should be talking directly to the people at the BOI. You do NOT need to go through a lawyer.

My quick impression is that if you wanted to do multiple projects in Thailand over a few years and planned on hiring and training some locals, you would get what you need, but for a one-off project it would be much harder. That said, you can "sell" to the BOI on the basis of what you hope/expect to bring to Thailand, rather than what you have a 100% secured.

Don't be dissuaded by the naysayers!

That's good advice from CDB and not wanting to be a naysayer I would just ask are you and your friends actually professional animators? While CDB suggests the route of approaching the BOI, I would assume they would insist on some kind of evidence that you are what you say you are and would therefore be in a position to be contributing to Thailand. If you are legit then you would need to gather together documentation supporting your claim and you would need to do a lot more research which you seem to have not done by some of your questions.

[sysardman]

Re Option 1, I am not up to date with the latest regulations, but setting up a company and employing four local Thais, will get you one work permit. There is a ratio of expat employees to Thai employees - and it is not generous. If the six of you are planning to live and work in Thailand, this option is not the answer.

Re Option 2 - you cannot apply for the B visa without a letter from your intended employer, including a copy of that employer's company registration certificate.

Option 3 - When I first came to Thailand 14 years ago, I met someone who had been working here, without a work permit, for three years. But that was also in the days of easy visa runs.

As Oldsalt did not actually address your 3rd option I will add my bit - a single entry Non O would only give you 90 days but there are many conditions attached to obtaining this visa (search other threads or check your local consulate). If you meet these conditions you can extend it a further 60 days - so either way you would fall short if you intend staying a year. If you were to meet Non O visa requirements then you would be better getting a 12 month multi entry to start with.

A non-O cannot be extended by another 60 days. A 60 day extension is only available to people married to a Thai or having a child with Thai nationality and can be given on any kind of entry.

I mentioned the 60 day because he states he has a 'Thai partner' but as he doesn't mention the actual relationship then I suggested he checks on visa requirements.

[simple1]

Yes, legally your only option is to set up a company. However, contrary to what the previous posters have mentioned, you may be able to avoid the issues with Thai/Farang ratio and investment capital.

The industry that you are in is one that Thailand actively wishes to develop so there is a good chance you are eligible for Board of Investment privileges which can reduce the total required capital to as little as 1 million baht and the ratio of Thais to foreigners to anything negotiable. The capital brought in can be working capital used to pay wages. You would definitely need to hire some Thais or show some contribution to Thailand.

Your first stop should be talking directly to the people at the BOI. You do NOT need to go through a lawyer.

My quick impression is that if you wanted to do multiple projects in Thailand over a few years and planned on hiring and training some locals, you would get what you need, but for a one-off project it would be much harder. That said, you can "sell" to the BOI on the basis of what you hope/expect to bring to Thailand, rather than what you have a 100% secured.

Don't be dissuaded by the naysayers!

Further to the above post Pattaya has been designated a Film City of Unesco; more info below. You may like to do more research on this to see if it would assist in your approach to BOI or indeed if Pattaya City Council would be interested in liaising with you. Thailand is seeking industry to contribute to local I.P. development

http://www.pattayada...city-of-unesco/

The other approach could be to contact the organisation below who assists Australian SME's for export activities, in your case potentially I.P.

http://www.export.org.au/eca/homepage

Edited October 16, 2012 by simple1

[manarak]

create a BOI company, they ignore thai/farang ratios for work permits if it makes sense for the BOI.

setup the company as an animation production studio working for a foreign customer. that way your company gets up on the list because it will be exporting.

second advantage is that using a foreign customer you can keep ownership of the product outside Thailand, and profits on the product will not be taxable in Thailand if done properly.

a work book full for one year should be enough.

the downside is that depending on country of origin, the minimum salary for foreigners could be as high as 50 or 60k a month, so you are potentially looking at 3.6 million THB for 6 foreigners, plus social costs, so make it about 4 million.

Edited October 16, 2012 by manarak

[Businessman]

Look at establishing a BOI. company. I believe they have a category for media. http://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=index

When I set up my first company here it was BOI. I had 2m thb plan/capital but only paid up 10% in the first yearno bond was required. (This was 10th years ago. ) BOI can be petitioned to issue work permits which are excess of the normal prescribed level with sufficient justification. You get other privileges such as no corporate tax for x years.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Soutpeel]

the downside is that depending on country of origin, the minimum salary for foreigners could be as high as 50 or 60k a month, so you are potentially looking at 3.6 million THB for 6 foreigners, plus social costs, so make it about 4 million.

There is no minimum salary stated for a WP, this is for extension of stay, if the foreign employees dont mind visa running every 3 months the you dont have to worry about these minimums

[koolbreez]

It sounds like you have a saleable animation project, and can't afford to take the time off to produce it living in your home country, that is why you want to live here. If this is the case then nothing you will be doing here has to be visible as far as the fact you are working to the Thai government.

There is another option, and the cheapest, to consider if the above is the case. All of you go to school here, and study Thai 2 days a week for 2 hours each day at an established language school. This will give you the one year visa (for under $1000) you will need to stay here, at an additional cost of bt1900 every 3 months, without having to leave the country, but you do have to go to school 4 hours a week.

It is technically not legal to work on this visa, but the work you will be doing is not visible so no real worry of some official finding out, and your finished work won't be sold in Thailand so no need to pay taxes. This is not technically legal, but the risk of getting caught is extremely low, and will better fit into your budget, and objective.

If you need to hire a few local animators the colleges are full of qualified people that will work for cash under the table, and very easy to recruit online. As long as they are not given credit in the finished product you shouldn't get in trouble hiring them. No paper trail will exist as long as you do not credit anything about the animation to being done in Thailand in anyway, shape, or form, in the finished product.

Trying to work with the BOI, and being classed as a film producer opens up a real big can of worms you might not wish to do. Any film produced in Thailand, even an animation, is open to censorship by the film board, and that could put a stop to your project before you even get started here. Not a risk I'd take given there are ways around it.

[RubbaJohnny]

You may be working on a false premise in that including the travel visa and W?P costs taxtes etc I'd guess 6 like minded could easily find a derelict house in Forbes/Tasmania or Lightening Ridge etc for under A$800 month.If you live on noodles and self cater I can eat as cheaply on food I like in Australia.

If you add to this 2 million bahts lost interest ,translation costs ,Cost of importin the money 1-3% dependn on bank,costs of calls home,cost of company formation,accountant ,auditor.

You may find other regimes likeNZ ,ROI,South Africarmenia actually encourage inward investment

Of course I appreciate you may wish to create Thai jobs and have fun.

I do not recommend doing anything illegal unless you want free digs at IDC

[manarak]

the downside is that depending on country of origin, the minimum salary for foreigners could be as high as 50 or 60k a month, so you are potentially looking at 3.6 million THB for 6 foreigners, plus social costs, so make it about 4 million.

There is no minimum salary stated for a WP, this is for extension of stay, if the foreign employees dont mind visa running every 3 months the you dont have to worry about these minimums

that's an interesting technicality

[samran]

also check out the Australia-Thai free trade agreement.

There may be nothing in it for you, but you never know.

[Tatsujin]

Far cheaper to run this project from your home country. Unless you all want to come here for other reasons.