Thai Household Debt

[BigJohnnyBKK]

> Not to mention the fact that the middle class here is so small as to be relatively unimportant.

No, it's the exact opposite, the Thai middle class is significant:

Thai middle-class

Although in the West, businessmen get excited about a so-called “upcoming middle-class” in emerging economies, it would be wise to determine first how to define this middle-class. A middle-class is only realistically measured by free-disposable income and purchasing power. In, for example, Indonesia, where salaries are low and the cost of living high, there is no middle-class to speak of, with enough free-disposable income and true purchasing power. In Thailand, on the other hand, there is a large middle-income group with a substantial percentage of its income freely available for purchases. (Read also BTA Report: Middle-class living conditions of 2008).

http://businesstrend...e-to-china.html

Google, "Middle Class in Thailand" and read some of the articles from that newspaper that we are not permitted to link or quote from, there's a bunch o data out there.

Yeah, that's one of those personal contact / personal experience issues. People are mostly in contact with one group or the other and then assume that the whole class/group/segment is one way or the other.

Well no one person is going to have a truly representative sampling of personal acquaintances.

Looking at both median and average income/asset statistics, I would continue to assert that the middle class, although certainly increasing in numbers and significance in recent decades, is not that significant a driver of macro-economic statistics.

I would argue that the borrowing/repayment patters of both the population sliver at the top that controls nearly all the significant assets of the country, and the huge majority that is still hand-to-mouth are still both much more significant than the middle.

Of course the latter group doesn't participate at all in the formal debt industry, so I guess wrt the NPL issue I see the middle class as the tail that won't wag the dog.

But even to the extent the middle class is important in such measurements, I see them as much more financially responsible than consumers in the West.

Much.

IMO it's those personal definitions that we're clearly not agreeing on here. For myself I'd include every single family that owns their properties outright and conduct commerce from those properties whether it's a single shophouse metalworks/restaurant/general goods/gold shop/dentist's office/etc. up to the line where any business (present to 80-90 years ago to account for the last 'largish' waves of Chinese immigrants) that was a 'large' (again relative) SME, multinational, and perhaps publicly listed as 'middle class' going back 80-90 years. I would think that that group as I define middle class as 'significant.'

I think in the west we're accustomed to defining the middle class based on annual salaries and then only talk 'net worth' for the upper middle class and upper class. Here it might be more appropriate (IMO) to define the middle class by family net worth.

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, make such a small pittance there's no way I could responsibly call them middle class.

If you are familiar with the actual standard of living costs in Bangkok, a family of four living on B20K a month would IMO not even qualify if they owned their home outright and had no large debt to service.

As usual a WAG but IMO far less than 40% of the country would be at or over that definition, and a decent percentage of those would be much wealthier than the average American.

You're right, it's completely a function as to how these arbitrary terms are defined.

[Heng]

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, make such a small pittance there's no way I could responsibly call them middle class.

If you are familiar with the actual standard of living costs in Bangkok, a family of four living on B20K a month would IMO not even qualify if they owned their home outright and had no large debt to service.

As usual a WAG but IMO far less than 40% of the country would be at or over that definition, and a decent percentage of those would be much wealthier than the average American.

You're right, it's completely a function as to how these arbitrary terms are defined.

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, are the most important part of the economy next to the publicly listed mega companies. I'd hardly call the money they keep in circulation a pittance. The type of family you mention (not exactly at those numbers of course).... say if their expenses were 20k a month and they were saving 40k a month (again, not a huge amount, are the types that you see buying new cars every 3-4 years with virtually no financing if any, and that's if they are the types that prefer steel over dirt.... the latter of course being the more prudent... or buying new homes/land/buildings every 5-8 years). Those are the people that over generations have formed the middle class, and it's important to notice that there usually are generations here that actually have something to do with one another. Then you can piece together how someone or a family with a business that makes less than what a school teacher or garbage collector makes in the west in profit per year can be called middle class and ostensibly own more real estate and have several times more capital and financial leverage than those types in the west will ever experience themselves.

But again, it's all relative.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Heng

[chiangmaikelly]

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, make such a small pittance there's no way I could responsibly call them middle class.

If you are familiar with the actual standard of living costs in Bangkok, a family of four living on B20K a month would IMO not even qualify if they owned their home outright and had no large debt to service.

As usual a WAG but IMO far less than 40% of the country would be at or over that definition, and a decent percentage of those would be much wealthier than the average American.

You're right, it's completely a function as to how these arbitrary terms are defined.

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, are the most important part of the economy next to the publicly listed mega companies. I'd hardly call the money they keep in circulation a pittance. The type of family you mention (not exactly at those numbers of course).... say if their expenses were 20k a month and they were saving 40k a month (again, not a huge amount, are the types that you see buying new cars every 3-4 years with virtually no financing if any, and that's if they are the types that prefer steel over dirt.... the latter of course being the more prudent... or buying new homes/land/buildings every 5-8 years). Those are the people that over generations have formed the middle class, and it's important to notice that there usually are generations here that actually have something to do with one another. Then you can piece together how someone or a family with a business that makes less than what a school teacher or garbage collector makes in the west in profit per year can be called middle class and ostensibly own more real estate and have several times more capital and financial leverage than those types in the west will ever experience themselves.

But again, it's all relative.

Is new money that comes from outside of Thailand more important than money that is already in circulation in Thailand?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

My main point is that the tiny percentage of families - well under 1% - with huge wealth at the top, and the huge hand-to-mouth majority that don't participate in the formal financial system at all are the two most significant groups economically.

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, are the most important part of the economy next to the publicly listed mega companies. I'd hardly call the money they keep in circulation a pittance. The type of family you mention (not exactly at those numbers of course)....

Well at the numbers I mentioned I agree there are huge numbers of them and that they are important - just that they aren't IMO middle class.

say if their expenses were 20k a month and they were saving 40k a month (again, not a huge amount, are the types that you see buying new cars every 3-4 years with virtually no financing if any, and that's if they are the types that prefer steel over dirt.... the latter of course being the more prudent... or buying new homes/land/buildings every 5-8 years).

While the numbers you cite most certainly qualify IMO.

I just think that kind of income/savings profile is a very very small percentage of both the population and the economy, say they sit at the 12-15% mark and control 5% of the assets (yes WAGs).

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Is new money that comes from outside of Thailand more important than money that is already in circulation in Thailand?

By "more important" you mean "a significant percentage"?

In any case I'd say no relatively speaking.

But of course any significant investment by professionally run international corporations is important to long-term improvement of the quality of business here, lots of secondary effects beyond the direct employment spending and production.

Investment by small-scale foreigners is IMO completely irrelevant to the big picture, except to all those Isaan villages whose daughters we're always complaining about here. But those areas of the country are completely off the scope of the economic big-picture at a national level.

[farang000999]

"Is new money that comes from outside of Thailand more important than money that is already in circulation in Thailand?"

It was in 1997 but not in a good way

Edited October 26, 2012 by farang000999

[nong38]

We can discuss this all we like and still not reach a conclusion, there is some vital imformation that is not available to us as non Thais.

Its a mystery to me and to many of you also I am sure, the figures we are used to seeing and understanding back home dont seem to work here. On the estate where I live there are a few houses where the owners have not been around for some time, perhaps their credit has run its course. There are several of us non Thais, ALL have one vehicle and maybe a motorcycle and thats it, it seems we cannot keep up with the locals in transport ownership, I do though suspect we sleep at night and if you asked me to make a further comment I would say this, Thai/Chinese seem to do pretty well, Thais I would guess would like to keep up and in doing so are sailing very close to the wind and the only time we will know is when we dont see them for a while, exit stage left!!!!!!

[chiang mai]

I agree, we really need a Thai to tell us what the Thai mindset is towards assets and debt because the picture doesn't make complete sence.

[chiangmaikelly]

I agree, we really need a Thai to tell us what the Thai mindset is towards assets and debt because the picture doesn't make complete sence.

Do you mean Thais who don't work at the BOT or for the government?

[Heng]

My main point is that the tiny percentage of families - well under 1% - with huge wealth at the top, and the huge hand-to-mouth majority that don't participate in the formal financial system at all are the two most significant groups economically.

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, are the most important part of the economy next to the publicly listed mega companies. I'd hardly call the money they keep in circulation a pittance. The type of family you mention (not exactly at those numbers of course)....

Well at the numbers I mentioned I agree there are huge numbers of them and that they are important - just that they aren't IMO middle class.

say if their expenses were 20k a month and they were saving 40k a month (again, not a huge amount, are the types that you see buying new cars every 3-4 years with virtually no financing if any, and that's if they are the types that prefer steel over dirt.... the latter of course being the more prudent... or buying new homes/land/buildings every 5-8 years).

While the numbers you cite most certainly qualify IMO.

I just think that kind of income/savings profile is a very very small percentage of both the population and the economy, say they sit at the 12-15% mark and control 5% of the assets (yes WAGs).

I'd say it's probably 80-15-5. lower-middle-upper. 15% is a small percentage of the population, but IMO they aren't a small % of the economy. YOMV.

[chiang mai]

My main point is that the tiny percentage of families - well under 1% - with huge wealth at the top, and the huge hand-to-mouth majority that don't participate in the formal financial system at all are the two most significant groups economically.

Huge numbers of self-employed and small business traders, as well as property owners, are the most important part of the economy next to the publicly listed mega companies. I'd hardly call the money they keep in circulation a pittance. The type of family you mention (not exactly at those numbers of course)....

Well at the numbers I mentioned I agree there are huge numbers of them and that they are important - just that they aren't IMO middle class.

say if their expenses were 20k a month and they were saving 40k a month (again, not a huge amount, are the types that you see buying new cars every 3-4 years with virtually no financing if any, and that's if they are the types that prefer steel over dirt.... the latter of course being the more prudent... or buying new homes/land/buildings every 5-8 years).

While the numbers you cite most certainly qualify IMO.

I just think that kind of income/savings profile is a very very small percentage of both the population and the economy, say they sit at the 12-15% mark and control 5% of the assets (yes WAGs).

I'd say it's probably 80-15-5. lower-middle-upper. 15% is a small percentage of the population, but IMO they aren't a small % of the economy. YOMV.

Wow, I'm OK with the 5% but the 80% in the poor class, that's a really big number and leaves a shed load of money in the hands of the remaining 20%. I suppose it is all a matter of definition,

[Heng]

I would say this, Thai/Chinese seem to do pretty well, Thais I would guess would like to keep up and in doing so are sailing very close to the wind and the only time we will know is when we dont see them for a while, exit stage left!!!!!!

On this tangent, I'd say that the middle class is predominantly Thai Chinese. Of the 15% I mentioned, I'd guess 12%. Of the 5% upper class I mentioned, I'd say 3%. And then rest are indigenous Thais, misc. tribal groups, and visa runners.

;-)

[fletchsmile]

......

50% of the economy is off the books and 50% of the loans are low or no interest loans also off the books.

Go to a bank and borrow the money to buy a house. The teller gives you 3 million baht cash. Yup right there in the bank she hands over 3 million in cash. Then you turn around and give that money to the person who owns the house. Cash. Is that how one buys a house in the West? No. Why do think?

[chiangmaikelly]

......

50% of the economy is off the books and 50% of the loans are low or no interest loans also off the books.

Go to a bank and borrow the money to buy a house. The teller gives you 3 million baht cash. Yup right there in the bank she hands over 3 million in cash. Then you turn around and give that money to the person who owns the house. Cash. Is that how one buys a house in the West? No. Why do think?

Your point is?

[inthepink]

I'm going by what I see.

My wife makes 7,000 a month in a good low level job.

The vast majority of Thais are in low level jobs, many earning as little as 3,000 a month.

Allowing for Thais in banking type jobs that apparently earn between 10,000 and 15,000 I am ESTIMATING that the average wage is AROUND 10,000 a month.

By all means dispute that, but there are statistics and there are dam_n statistics, and from many years in Thailand I would dispute that most Thais earn enough to buy a multi million baht house or a million baht car, yet we see them everywhere.

This is a bit of a silly post. Whilst the mean average monthly salary may be around 10k, there is a healthy percentage of Thai people earning far more than that. These are the people that are buying houses and cars, not 7/11 workers on 6 or 7k a month.

I think your figures are a little unrealistic too. Burmese maids usually manage to make a fair bit more than 3k a month so I doubt there are all that many Thai people on such a low salary. You need to bear in mind that the majority of people in most countries earn low salaries. The distribution of wealth in Thailand, as measured by the Gini coefficient, is roughly the same as it is in the USA.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

This is a bit of a silly post. Whilst the mean average monthly salary may be around 10k, there is a healthy percentage of Thai people earning far more than that. These are the people that are buying houses and cars, not 7/11 workers on 6 or 7k a month.

I think your figures are a little unrealistic too. Burmese maids usually manage to make a fair bit more than 3k a month so I doubt there are all that many Thai people on such a low salary. You need to bear in mind that the majority of people in most countries earn low salaries. The distribution of wealth in Thailand, as measured by the Gini coefficient, is roughly the same as it is in the USA.

Regarding the absolute salary numbers even in Bangkok where salaries are highest B250 is the going rate for a 12-hour day, often in a hazardous working environment, and that's for Thais. The illegals work for much less - at least those employed by Thais do, I do know some well-paid Burmese maids employed by generous foreigners (Thais call them soft-hearted suckers) at around 8000 per month. However many if not most work for under 6K - but they usually are housed and fed by their employer in exchange for 24x7 availability, often not paid for days off if any.

The vast majority of Thais work between this level and the average, which I also understand to be around 10,000K, and many many make very little cash at all, living off the land and/or the kindness of wealthier family members, neighbors and charity.

The percentage of Thais making "far more" than the average - would you consider 15K to be "far more"? 20? would be relatively small, quickly approaching single digits.

Regarding the Gini approach to distribution you're absolutely right - saying Thailand's is similar to the US is of course factual but a brutal condemnation indeed; America is very much an outlier in the developed world. Some sample numbers:

- the top 400 American citizens have a higher income than the bottom 50% of the population combined

- the six Walmart heirs hold more wealth than the bottom 42% of the population

- In 2009 and 2010, 93% of the nation's income growth went to 1% of wage earners, and 15,600 households captured 37% of all national growth

links: link link link link

I'd say it's probably 80-15-5. lower-middle-upper. 15% is a small percentage of the population, but IMO they aren't a small % of the economy. YOMV.

Wow, I'm OK with the 5% but the 80% in the poor class, that's a really big number and leaves a shed load of money in the hands of the remaining 20%. I suppose it is all a matter of definition,

Yes of course it is. Note that that 5% own well over 80%, perhaps 90% of the means of production here, and the fact that even what we would consider very poor people among the peasant class own their home and farmland upcountry creates a different situation from more industrialized countries.

Edited October 26, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[BigJohnnyBKK]

It's a really long read and you'd have to be seriously interested in the subject to read it all, but this is a fascinating paper written by two Japanese guys that covers the history and emergence of the middle class in Thailand, page 246 (!) gives one description.

http://www.ide.go.jp...df/03_02_07.pdf

Thanks, very interesting read.

[fletchsmile]

......

50% of the economy is off the books and 50% of the loans are low or no interest loans also off the books.

Go to a bank and borrow the money to buy a house. The teller gives you 3 million baht cash. Yup right there in the bank she hands over 3 million in cash. Then you turn around and give that money to the person who owns the house. Cash. Is that how one buys a house in the West? No. Why do think?

Your point is?

I enjoyed your joke

[chiang mai]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

[metisdead]

I think we're wandering a bit off topic here.

[chiangmaikelly]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

Edited October 27, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[simple1]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

When buying a house for my wife did not want to carry around a large amount of cash to the Land office, so purchased a bank cashiers cheque, only cost a 100 baht or so...

[chiangmaikelly]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

When buying a house for my wife did not want to carry around a large amount of cash to the Land office, so purchased a bank cashiers cheque, only cost a 100 baht or so...

I realize that but have you ever known anyone who had a personal checking account from a Thai bank?

[simple1]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

When buying a house for my wife did not want to carry around a large amount of cash to the Land office, so purchased a bank cashiers cheque, only cost a 100 baht or so...

I realize that but have you ever known anyone who had a personal checking account from a Thai bank?

personally, no

[fletchsmile]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

Actually I'd say Chiang Mai hits the nail on the head. You're extrapolating your own experiences and applying them to Thailand.

This reflects pretty much the OP's post, that it is lack of understanding about the topic why things look strange and skewed to you.

[chiangmaikelly]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

Actually I'd say Chiang Mai hits the nail on the head. You're extrapolating your own experiences and applying them to Thailand.

This reflects pretty much the OP's post, that it is lack of understanding about the topic why things look strange and skewed to you.

How do you know anything about Thai debt? There is no paper trail. 50% or more of financial transactions are done in cash and the banking system goes along with this oddity. If you brought cash to a bank in the west to buy a house or a large investment they would go a little nuts. Cash is the exception. Most people have little idea of the realities of the Thai banking system. When a person asks a simple question like, "do you have a checking account" I get shouted down as being strange and skewed. The fact remains checking accounts are the norm in the West and the exception in Thailand. Why is that?

[chiang mai]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

Whether or not people have checking accounts in Thailand is irrelevant, when someone needs a bankers draft or a cashiers cheque for a large purchase, they go to the bank and buy one. But nobody wants to do that when paying UBC etc because the cost does not justify the end, paying 100 baht for a cashiers cheque to pay a THB 1,500 bill is not cost effective.

But you also seem to think that the only way the true cost of household debt can be captured is if everyone were to have a checking account and presumably all transaction monitored in some way, bizzarre to say the least..Looking at Somchai's spending habits is meanigless unless you want to write a detailed report about Somchai's debt, I think what we're interested in is a much higher level view and one that is more representative of the population as a whole, rather than just one person.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I realize that but have you ever known anyone who had a personal checking account from a Thai bank?

My understanding is it's not allowed for individuals, only registered businesses.

Why? Who needs cheques? For what?

Even counting my time back home I haven't written a personal check for thirty years. . .

[chiangmaikelly]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

Whether or not people have checking accounts in Thailand is irrelevant, when someone needs a bankers draft or a cashiers cheque for a large purchase, they go to the bank and buy one. But nobody wants to do that when paying UBC etc because the cost does not justify the end, paying 100 baht for a cashiers cheque to pay a THB 1,500 bill is not cost effective.

But you also seem to think that the only way the true cost of household debt can be captured is if everyone were to have a checking account and presumably all transaction monitored in some way, bizzarre to say the least..Looking at Somchai's spending habits is meanigless unless you want to write a detailed report about Somchai's debt, I think what we're interested in is a much higher level view and one that is more representative of the population as a whole, rather than just one person.

Think about it. Why do people not have checking accounts in Thailand? In the West everyone has a checking account and everyone pays bills with checks. Everything is tracked. Everything is recorded. All the information is available. In our quest to discern who pays taxes and how much household debt a family has a checking account would make the accounting far easier. An ex pat can live in Thailand forever and leave no paper trail of any expenditures.

[chiangmaikelly]

This is yet another stupid discussion based on the personal experiences of an individual, purporting to be representative of the country and population as a whole, it's ludicrous, of course people use cheques to buy and sell big ticket items, that you don't is something else entirely.

If it was not the norm it would be ludicrous. It also is central to the household debt held by Thai people. Where do you pay your electric bill? 7/11 cash. Where do you pay your water bill? 7/11 cash. How do you pay your satellite bill? Cash. Or 3BB internet? Cash. You can pay everything in Thailand in Cash. How do you know what is the percent of debt when everything in a society can be paid for in Cash? Do you see the problem here?

Do you know anyone who has a checking account in Thailand? I don't know one person. Business sure but individuals none.

Sometimes I really feel like I am the only person who lives in Thailand. Does anyone posting on Thai Visa have a personal checking account from a Thai bank? I would bet less than 1%.

But you also seem to think that the only way the true cost of household debt can be captured is if everyone were to have a checking account and presumably all transaction monitored in some way, bizzarre to say the least..Looking at Somchai's spending habits is meanigless unless you want to write a detailed report about Somchai's debt, I think what we're interested in is a much higher level view and one that is more representative of the population as a whole, rather than just one person.

The whole is simply the sum of the parts. If you want to know about personal debt you have to add up the persons. What is the number of persons accounts you would have to know to have a statistically relevant sample?