Our Kids' I Q Is Down? It's The Education, Stupid!: Thai Talk

[jackr]

Face (talking about diet is a prime example) and sanook have a lot to answer for. Also, if they want to improve things, remove 99.9% of the utter crraaappp from the TV. I urge those with kids to restrict time in front of the box, in particular when channels 1 to 9 are selected. Better still, throw the thing over the hedge... along with the missus.

Edited October 18, 2012 by jackr

[maidu]

Face (talking about diet is a prime example) and sanook have a lot to answer for. Also, if they want to improve things, remove 99.9% of the utter crraaappp from the TV. I urge those with kids to restrict time in front of the box, in particular when channels 1 to 9 are selected. Better still, throw the thing over the hedge... along with the missus.

I agree TV is a factor. Nearly every Thai home has TV soaps blaring hours per day. Kids are influenced by their environment. If they see/hear adults having tantrums, they soak it up. It's a particularly crappy role model for girls. There are many ways it can affect their IQ's. On the plus side, it stimulates their brains to follow dialogue. The drawbacks, however, are numerous. How many Thai parents read to their kids? Perhaps one in 100. How many read meaningful things having to do with science or biographies of great historical personalities? Perhaps one in 1,000. Thai education system should be at least 50% arts/crafts and outdoor activities such as sports and nature walks.

[inapeartree]

On another note, I wonder how many farangs could / would want to stay in Thailand if the whole society was more educated and therefore more 'western'?

Why do you think that a better education would make them more 'western'?

Some of the stupidest people I have ever met have high levels of education.

Very true, educated doesn't mean intelligent! Some of the brightest and most competent people I've worked with, worked for and had work for me have been the least qualified but in Thailand I understand that without a BA or above you aren't given a chance. Sad!

[foolforlove]

The original article is so full of logical flaws and presumptions as to be totally worthless except as a stimulant for discussion of a very important topic. I am really pleased to see that it has accomplished that objective, because the problems it covers are vitally important. I am an educator from America who has taught in Thailand at the elementary through university levels. My Thai family includes two teachers and a son who is currently in Thai school. I have obviously given this subject many years of consideration.

First, let me address IQ vs. education. IQ is not a measure of education, as college board entrance exams would be, for example. The IQ test has been painstakingly designed to measure innate intelligence irrespective of education or culture. Think of it as a measure of your brain's potential rather than what has already been crammed into it. Though nearly impossible to accomplish perfectly, an IQ test is supposed be totally unaffected by education level. It stands to reason, therefore, that the quality of education in Thailand is a seperate issue from IQ. Better education will NOT improve IQ.

This is not to say that there is not a crisis in IQ here. There is. But it can't be fixed through education. THAT is a seperate, equally desperate problem, and one which is also getting worse.

And though there is a correlation between low education, low IQ, and low EQ, please kep it clear in your mind that fixing education and/or IQ will not necessarily fix the astonishingly low EQ situation we have here in my new home. These are three seperate problems that are only loosely connected, and each desperately needs to be addressed.

Which is the most important could be debated, but a society full of people lacking in any one fo these three areas is essentially doomed in this highly competitive, globally connected world. We MUST find solutions, and it must be soon.

I agree that IQ is not a direct measure of education.

However, it is a little extreme to say that IQ *only* measures innate inteligence.

I think the same research you refer to does show that IQ scores generally go up as the person gets older and has more experiences (including education). Certainly we wouldn't expect a child of six to score the same as a person of forty, even if they had the same innate intelligence regardless of culture and education?

Do you agree that good education trains the mind in skills, logic, and reasoning abilities which can enable higher IQ scores?

[Scott]

More posts of those criticizing grammar and spelling have been deleted. Such comments are off-topic and the suspensions you will be given fall under this rule:

5) Not to post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling.Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

If you have nothing to say that is relevant to the topic, then feel free NOT to post.

You have been warned.

[MaxLee]

Thailand's education system is an examination culture from the day the kids are born, 95% of that crap in those examination is useless crap that won't help them to survive in real life...

If you try to convince people to have unified thoughts in today's world you're kidding yourselves.

[easyas]

I must admit I'd never even heard of EQ.

Until I read a post which talked of "Emotional Quotient", I thought it stood for "Ethical Quotient".

Silly me!

This is Thailand after all!

[sirchai]

It could also have something to do with genes. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

And Thainee has a lot of Thainess......

[Gweiloman]

On another note, I wonder how many farangs could / would want to stay in Thailand if the whole society was more educated and therefore more 'western'?

Why do you think that a better education would make them more 'western'?

Well, think about it. The majority (if not all) the posts on this thread criticises in one form or another, the education system, the culture, the mindset and even the genetic defects of Thais / Thailand, as compared to what they grew up with. Assuming that all these issues are addressed by the responsible authorities and remedied. Eventually, the schools will start to churn out smart, educated kids with good morals and values, maybe even fluent in foreign languages such as English. Corruption will be slowly eradicated, except at the very highest echelons of power. Thailand will become like Singapore.

Don't you think that Singapore is western?

[Notstupid30]

i blame it on the parents the iq down

[MaxLee]

Someone mentioned yesterday, and rightfully,.... Even the most qualified teachers cannot teach a group of 60-80 students in a classroom effectively, ALONE!!!!!

As former volunteer English teacher, (okay I was getting paid a little bit) for a bilingual primary kindergarten school, from kindergarten level to 6th Grade, I can verify most of the issues going on, and let me mention it really simple:

You can't blame kids for being kids, who would like to be active, but unfortunately the teachers enforce such rules as "sitting still and rote-learn"

The major issue that is concerning is that Thai teachers are used to physically punish children with rods, and their was especially one of them who did it in such a furious fashion, I almost cried and felt sorry for those kids, who just "intended to play and run around with me instead of "sitting and rote-learning and repeat saying for 55 minutes what the teachers say",.... of course you cannot expect a group of kindergarten kids to sit still for 1 hour and repeat-say what the teachers say,.... so most of my lesson plans I can throw away,... Of course most of my fellow teacher were surprised that I didn't "physically punish" children if they, what they assume "MISBEHAVE", but I mean,... that's just not my style to physically punish any children, unless it's my own child or anything.

Well with the older children the issue was, they notice that you don't physically punish them, so they know they can run around like little chicken all day because you cannot speak Thai anyway

Bottomline is, that a lack of instilling social behavior and openness to diversity of cultures has been sadly lacking in parenthood, in which children just RECEIVE and EXPECT TO GET MORE...

In my honest opinion: the ROOT PROBLEM OF THAILAND'S EDUCATION SYSTEM IS; LACK OF INSTILLING SOCIAL BEHAVIOR AND ACCEPTING MULTICULTURAL DIVERSITY TO CREATE GLOBAL RELATIONSHIPS

Again you cannot blame children for being children,... in order to teach physically and mentally sensitive age groups,... teaching technically requires TEAMWORK, but unfortunately Schools and other educational institutes do not have the funds to technically INVEST in it.... So much for teaching 60-80 students in a classroom.

[osiboy]

By all the money that is invested in improving the Education system, the education ministries of Thailand overlook one main thing and that thing is called: social behavior and respect towards different cultures

Nowadays a lot of kids have such a poor behavior and an uninterested short attention span, it is really frustrating for the teachers.

It is exactly material possessions like iPhones, cars, and all the other shining goods that decrease the moral behavior of Thai kids and people with the intention: the richer they get the LESS effort they want to put into the good of society, isolating themselves from the outside world.

IMHO Behavior should come first instead of investing into useless policies like tablets…

nice post , but ...............they are ony copying western culture concerning having the latest i phones,lappy's etc , so how do explain them being the same same but different results ??

[osiboy]

Jim Walker,

What a stupid post.

If the average Thai parent was able to afford ship their kids abroad for a better education then they would also be able to send their child to an international school.

In essence what you are saying is that Thais who do not come from rich families do not deserve to be educated.

Have you ever of pitching your ideas to the Thai Education Department because that is nearly in line with their policies.

its the tories policy in the UK too,.....wonder if jim comes from the SE of England ?

[osiboy]

The original article is so full of logical flaws and presumptions as to be totally worthless except as a stimulant for discussion of a very important topic. I am really pleased to see that it has accomplished that objective, because the problems it covers are vitally important. I am an educator from America who has taught in Thailand at the elementary through university levels. My Thai family includes two teachers and a son who is currently in Thai school. I have obviously given this subject many years of consideration.

First, let me address IQ vs. education. IQ is not a measure of education, as college board entrance exams would be, for example. The IQ test has been painstakingly designed to measure innate intelligence irrespective of education or culture. Think of it as a measure of your brain's potential rather than what has already been crammed into it. Though nearly impossible to accomplish perfectly, an IQ test is supposed be totally unaffected by education level. It stands to reason, therefore, that the quality of education in Thailand is a seperate issue from IQ. Better education will NOT improve IQ.

This is not to say that there is not a crisis in IQ here. There is. But it can't be fixed through education. THAT is a seperate, equally desperate problem, and one which is also getting worse.

And though there is a correlation between low education, low IQ, and low EQ, please kep it clear in your mind that fixing education and/or IQ will not necessarily fix the astonishingly low EQ situation we have here in my new home. These are three seperate problems that are only loosely connected, and each desperately needs to be addressed.

Which is the most important could be debated, but a society full of people lacking in any one fo these three areas is essentially doomed in this highly competitive, globally connected world. We MUST find solutions, and it must be soon.

I agree that IQ is not a direct measure of education.

However, it is a little extreme to say that IQ *only* measures innate inteligence.

I think the same research you refer to does show that IQ scores generally go up as the person gets older and has more experiences (including education). Certainly we wouldn't expect a child of six to score the same as a person of forty, even if they had the same innate intelligence regardless of culture and education?

Do you agree that good education trains the mind in skills, logic, and reasoning abilities which can enable higher IQ scores?

IMHO i think all schools world wide should use a combination exam having an IQ and the usual exams, and come to an agreed % ....say 30% of IQ and 70% from the exam to give an overall result, as a few posters have commented and i too agree that a good education does not mean your the most itelligent ,i always had better results at IQ tests than i ever got during exams,.......... to achievet high exam results having the best memory is the key !

Edited October 19, 2012 by osiboy

[MaxLee]

Without proper instillation of social behavior and multicultural respect for diversified people, there IS no such thing as teaching kids properly. It's impossible for ONE single teacher to instill discipline in a 60-80 students classroom, this is like cock and chick fighting

[harryfrompattaya]

The funny thing about this article, is he is insinuating that 40 years ago, things were oh, so much better.

In every country the teachers complain the kids are dumb that way they get more for education That is the con give us more and students will be brighter

[Sing_Sling]

I'm a teacher and I have ONE word to describe the kids of today............LAZY!! Plain and simple.

They expect everything to be done for them (because the parents do everything for them) and when it's not, they receive a passing grade anyway because we 're 'encouraged' to give the kids a passing grade.

That's the education system everywhere............not just in Thailand.

Everywhere? Absolute rubbish. Unadulterated nonsense

[harryfrompattaya]

Ill informed rubbish ....IQ SCORES ARE MEANT TO STAY THE SAME!!!

IQ tests are designed so that the average person in a population will have a score of 100. So if, for some reason, a population gets 'more intelligent', the tests are made a bit harder. The reason the IQ of children in Thailand has stayed the same in the last 10 years is because that is how IQ tests are designed.

The headline and the report repeatedly says that Thai kids' IQ is declining but the opening sentence clearly states IQ scores have stayed the same over the last 10 years. Only the opening sentence is correct: IQ SCORES DON'T CHANGE OVER TIME!

So you can't judge an education system on IQ scores. IQ is anyway, a very narrow definition of intelligence and the original idea of them was to measure 'innate' intelligence, something schools were not supposed to be able to change anyway. The idea that IQ scores can be improved by diet, and that all you need to improve diet is to introduce a government policy on nutrition would be laughable if it wasn't so breathtakingly ill-informed. And what's the deal with EQ? Since when could you measure emotional intelligence? The report just seems to assume IQ and EQ are linked: when IQ goes down, so does EQ.

Suthichai Yoon and Dr Anant Ariyachaiyanich don't know what they're talking about.

IQ scores for individuals should remain in the same range. IQ scores for groups, such as national assessments, do in fact change. The average IQ for the US at one time was 100. Now it is 98, which is largely attributable to mass immigration from lower IQ countries, especially in Central and South America and in the Caribbean and Africa. Diet does increase IQ around the margins--maybe as much as 10 points from low IQ countries such as Equatorial Guinea, which is 59, and the like. Environmental factors may add as much as 10-15 points more. That would bring Equatorial Guinea, for example, to the 85 range--about the norm for Mexico.

It will seem to me they should ask the Jews for advice on how to get high IQ's and noble prize winners. Are their any members that known these type of people.

[Pormax]

More posts of those criticizing grammar and spelling have been deleted. Such comments are off-topic and the suspensions you will be given fall under this rule:

5) Not to post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling.Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

If you have nothing to say that is relevant to the topic, then feel free NOT to post.

You have been warned.

Good on you Scott, great to see some moderators trying to make this a good forum to be a part of.

Keep up the good work.

[Pormax]

I hate to say it but from what I have experienced in the last two years with my neices (6) and nephews (4) the schooling/teaching is appalling.

As I have commented on another post, I see these childen coming home with what I used to call homework.

What they are required to do is copy from a book. That is ok if they do it themselves as at least they have to read it. However all the family chips in, the cousins and my wife take turns copying whatever is required. I have asked the question 'doesn't the teacher say anything when she/he see 4 or more different writing' The answer I got was 'they don't care as long as it is done but if they don't do it they not pass the end of term exam'

During this term break one of the neices on going to the school to check on the results found she did not pass the exam so was required to go to to the school again last week to resit the part she failed. 'No problem' said my wife 'she pass for sure this time'. 'How you know that' I asked. Answer I got was 'they all pass second time because teacher tell them what to do'

I see many instances where the children have to do things out of school time to ensure they get a end of term pass mark.Whether it is to go on a school trip and travel 6 hours to go to the beach or go to the local temple, report to the head monk then clean the temple and surrounding area, then when finished take back a note signed by the monk to say you have done the work, or take in small trees or shrubs on a weekend and plant them in the school grounds.

In the infant school is not uncommon to find that the teacher has not turned up for work then the children ae sent home. Some having to walk up to 2kms. No extra teachers to fill in and no phone call to the parents.

Yes sorry not have a great opinion on Thai schooling and don't see a change coming.

Until the teaching standard is regulated their will be litle improvement with the majority of Thai rural citizens.

[maidu]

I just had two groups of students visit my rural properties concurrently - for a week. One was 6 Singapore high schoolers, the other was 3 U-age Thais. For starters, both groups never strayed more than an arm's length from their respective group members. When I asked who wanted to go on a guided tour to see the many plants I've planted over 14 years, only the Thais went. They're all good and healthy kids (the Singapore kids bought a beer at a store, then decided not to drink it, and asked if I wanted it. I told them 'I don't drink.' The bottle is sitting all on its lonesome on a shelf somewhere). The Thai group were ok with pulling weeds. The Singaporeans frowned when I offered weed-pulling, but brightened up when a tile setting job came up. All six working together, shoulder to shoulder, were slower than one hill triber working solo, but it's ok, because they're new at it and perfectionists.

The overall picture is: it's so good to get youngsters to be doing wholesome things outdoors - particularly if those chores are fun and/or useful. The reality is Asian kids (and kids most places) are forced to spend 90% of their daylight hours between the ages of 5 and 25 sitting on hard seats at desks in a flourescent lit classroom, listening to boring crap. It's surprising people don't have puffed up red butts like baboons which sit most of the day on rocks. At least the baboons are outside, and they flitter around once in awhile. Asian students are just stuck in place. Ugh.

[Issangeorge]

SMALLER CLASSES, SMALLER CLASSES, having taught for 6 years at Thai Government Schools, I have come to the conclusion that no matter how good the teacher is, if they are teaching a class of 40 to 50 plus students, it is almost impossible for the lower students to learn, only the very smart students that bother to pay attention learn anything. I have taught to the large classes and for the most part felt I was wasting my time, I have taught to a small class of 8 students and felt that the students benefited greatly from my teaching. I grant you that classes of 8 is an impractical number, but I have taught in classes of 20 to 30 students where I also felt the students learnt. The first thing Thailand has to do is get the class sizes down, then the teacher can teach the students to think and not just to parrot the teacher.

[Noistar]

IMO

Mainly due to teachers not having the ability to teach.

My step-daughter regularly comes back from school saying that in some lessons she finishes the lesson and hasn't learnt anything.

She raises questions in class but is put down by the teachers stating 'I taught you that last year'.

A flawed reply:

1 - if it was true it clearly wasn't successful

2 - my step-daughter was in a different school last year.

Lessons seem to consist of "sit down, listen, don't interrupt and see you next time".

My step-daughter is terrified I will go to the school and complain as she feels her position would be untenable.

Anyway, wouldn't do any good, none of the staff have English speaking abilities.

How much am I paying for this xxxx?

[maidu]

All good suggestions on this thread, but none will be seriously considered by Thai authorities. Re; the post about too big classes. It reflects on schools being too cheapskate to hire more teachers and/or not having adequate facilities/classrooms. Probably most succint, it reflects on poor management, and elders being unaware or not caring about what's best for students. If I had school aged children in Thailand, I would home-school them. They would be better at geography, geology, and all the sciences than most Thai teachers teaching those topics. They would be better speakers and writers of English than most English teachers in Thailand. They would be top notch at sports and environmental studies and alternative energy knowledge. Ok, it's easy to boast when talking hypotheticals, but that's the way I see it.

[canuckamuck]

Don't forgot logic, creativity, and critical thinking.

[backtonormal]

Lets face some home truths..most of which have bubbled to the surface in previous posts.

1. The Thai education system is successful. It is successful because it fulfills the goals of those who govern and have power here, that being, to design a system which will keep the poor in their place.

2. Thais have for many years been fed a very slick propaganda model which is essentially a navel gazing retrospective of some mythical, glorious past.

3. Thai culture is change resistant (see point # 2).

4. Thais are particular and exact in their nature... an offshoot of their convoluted language???? and as a consequence seem to be mesmerised by figures. They love test scores.

So we have a system run by the elites for the elites designed to disenfranchise the poor. I have been an educator all my working life and have worked in hi so international schools here as well as bi - lingual schools. I know a little bit about how children best learn. As for this shameful story on IQ??? yes IQ is meant to test innate ability but it often doesn't. Once IQ tests start to be formatted as a verbal response, they tend to test linguistic ability. Even mathematics tests are often closely bound to verbal comprehension. I have worked in Thai schools where yes ...'everybody wins a prize folks' and 85% is the magic number. I have witnessed the concerned Thai mother doing her child's homework on the skytrain, I have seen Thai toddlers barely able to pull their 'suitcase' of homework behind them.....more is better. IQ will not tell you all that much about a child's education; note I said education as opposed to knowledge, two quite different things. It may give some indication of the child's potential, that's all. My very real fear is that Thai character is such that they will not buck the feudal system which is at the rotten core of so much that is holding this country back. Things will continue as they always have. Hi So's will send their kids offshore, middle classes will struggle to send their kids to a Thai uni and get a worthless piece of paper and the rural and poor will continue to provide the elite with babies, who will grow up to work in their factories etc., etc. for, if they are lucky 200 Baht a day. All is well in the universe and Thailand in particular and things are as they are meant to be.

Excellent post.worthy of a second read. A previous poster refers to the inept Ministry of Education. You would be foolish to believe a department as low as that dictates the curriculum, they just enforce it. A colleague compared a western school timetable to that of his sons Thai school and rightly enquired about the amount of 'non lesson time'. After several complaints from farang parents they consented to fill some of the 'nap time' with lessons. Badminton, swimming, other sport etc but not academic studies. A western teacher in the school explained that any changes to a previously agreed curriculum had to be sanctioned by the local Ed Ministry and they would not allow any further academic studies only sports and such like. Wouldn't be nice if every Thai student asked a question beginning with 'WHY' at least once per day

Edited October 21, 2012 by backtonormal