Getting Sick Of Dogooders

[Thaddeus]

Thanks James for opening such an interesting & uplifting topic. It's so nice to see so many content farangs living here in Thailand for a change. I've told so many friends who visit Thailand regularly (that is Pattaya & Puket....Not real Thailand) that they really have no idea what REAL Thailand is all about. I live in Essan & personaly think it's a little piece of heaven with some of the nicest people I have ever met in my worldly travels. Every day I see the kids in the village playing together with a big mix of ages. They have very little in western kids conceptions of what you need to be happy materialisticly but I see happy happy kids, great imaginations & very high respect for their peirs & elders.

Thank you all who have made the effort to reflect on our beautiful quality life here in the true land of smiles.

Joe.

Joe, I have 2 kids, both born in Australia.

Kids in Thailand have a real childhood, not farmed off to strangers in day care centers, so mum and dad can go to work. They play in the street with other kids, watched over by Aunts,1st, 2nd, 3rd cousins and the village as a whole. They are not forced to stay in house in front of a TV because the streets are to dangerous to venture out. That's why we came here and when the kids get big enough they can choose, a simple life here or the bright lights of Sydney or London. That is their life, my part is to give them the happy child hood, so they can grow to be happy adults.

Material wealth does not bring contentment, if you have a secure life style, food to eat and a place to sleep, what more do you need. Jim

Man do you ever leave the Village? Try the Mountain lifestyle, no Medicine, no Work, no School, not enough to eat. Evidently you have never seen Poverty. Next time in BKK try walking around Klong Toey. I can,t believe no one has challenged your Myopic View. In Buddism we are taught to put up with our lot, so just because you don,t hear them complain doesn,t mean its all Beer and Skittles. If a Family,s Old Man drinks all the money or Mum Gambles it, couldn,t that reduce people to Poverty which you said in the OP that you don,t see, only Happy children and Contented Serfs .

No one is saying that there is absolutely no poverty in Thailand, just that it is in the minority.

If you want to see lots and lots of real poverty, go to Cambodia.

[Pormax]

I can understand the OP points to an extent but why state he is 'Sick of Dogooders' Surely it is up to the individuals what they do as long as they don't directly affect you. No one is asking you to join them or to give money. Time will tell if the ones trying to make a life better for others are doing a good job or are misguided and wasting their money in trying to force a change where it maybe is not neccessary or welcome.They have an agenda where they think they are helping others. But this is not mine or your problem.Their (the doggoders as you call them) perogative. If these people were not around including charities then the world in general would be a lot worse off. Some people feel good about giving to others while others only think of themselves. I agree there are many who ask for and get handouts where they can and should be doing more for themselves but there is and always be others that can't and need help.

How others spend their time or money is no concern of yours or mine unless we wish to help by getting involved. If not let the 'Dogooders' get on with it if it makes them happy.

[jamescollister]

Thanks James for opening such an interesting & uplifting topic. It's so nice to see so many content farangs living here in Thailand for a change. I've told so many friends who visit Thailand regularly (that is Pattaya & Puket....Not real Thailand) that they really have no idea what REAL Thailand is all about. I live in Essan & personaly think it's a little piece of heaven with some of the nicest people I have ever met in my worldly travels. Every day I see the kids in the village playing together with a big mix of ages. They have very little in western kids conceptions of what you need to be happy materialisticly but I see happy happy kids, great imaginations & very high respect for their peirs & elders.

Thank you all who have made the effort to reflect on our beautiful quality life here in the true land of smiles.

Joe.

Joe, I have 2 kids, both born in Australia.

Kids in Thailand have a real childhood, not farmed off to strangers in day care centers, so mum and dad can go to work. They play in the street with other kids, watched over by Aunts,1st, 2nd, 3rd cousins and the village as a whole. They are not forced to stay in house in front of a TV because the streets are to dangerous to venture out. That's why we came here and when the kids get big enough they can choose, a simple life here or the bright lights of Sydney or London. That is their life, my part is to give them the happy child hood, so they can grow to be happy adults.

Material wealth does not bring contentment, if you have a secure life style, food to eat and a place to sleep, what more do you need. Jim

Man do you ever leave the Village? Try the Mountain lifestyle, no Medicine, no Work, no School, not enough to eat. Evidently you have never seen Poverty. Next time in BKK try walking around Klong Toey. I can,t believe no one has challenged your Myopic View. In Buddism we are taught to put up with our lot, so just because you don,t hear them complain doesn,t mean its all Beer and Skittles. If a Family,s Old Man drinks all the money or Mum Gambles it, couldn,t that reduce people to Poverty which you said in the OP that you don,t see, only Happy children and Contented Serfs .

I know that the slums of BKK are bad and the dogooders can go there, that is westernization big cities, they are not needed here. As to drunken fathers and gambling mothers, that infers they have money in the first place and no extended family support. Again not prevalent in my area, they are the type that end up in BKK.

Which mountains do you refer to, as I live at the bottom of the mountains on the Lao land border. Jim

[theslime]

I live near Doi Internon, where the Locals can,t even get Thai Pasports .

[theslime]

In your Op you said that maybe, you having one pair of Shoes could be classed as Poverty.

[jamescollister]

I can understand the OP points to an extent but why state he is 'Sick of Dogooders' Surely it is up to the individuals what they do as long as they don't directly affect you. No one is asking you to join them or to give money. Time will tell if the ones trying to make a life better for others are doing a good job or are misguided and wasting their money in trying to force a change where it maybe is not neccessary or welcome.They have an agenda where they think they are helping others. But this is not mine or your problem.Their (the doggoders as you call them) perogative. If these people were not around including charities then the world in general would be a lot worse off. Some people feel good about giving to others while others only think of themselves. I agree there are many who ask for and get handouts where they can and should be doing more for themselves but there is and always be others that can't and need help.

How others spend their time or money is no concern of yours or mine unless we wish to help by getting involved. If not let the 'Dogooders' get on with it if it makes them happy.

Think I said I am sick of dogooders posting story's about the abject poverty of rural Issan and how they came to bring happiness and western ideas to the down trodden. They want to spend time and money feeding their egos, again fine, but don't go telling the world that rural Issan is a living hell, it's not, it's my home.

I am sure if some one started posting t how your home country was a total shit hole of poverty and hunger, you may take offense. Jim

[jamescollister]

I live near Doi Internon, where the Locals can,t even get Thai Pasports .

You are talking stateless people, not farming rural Thais. That's a world wide problem not only a Thai thing. I am talking people who have lived for generations off the land, have stable social systems, never had real money, but live good happy content lives. Jim

[jamescollister]

In your Op you said that maybe, you having one pair of Shoes could be classed as Poverty.

Said I didn't have a pair of shoes, only work boots, lucky not much in the way of snow round here. Jim

[billd766]

I live on the other side of Thailand in Khampaeng Phet province near the Mae Wong national park.

There are not that many "poor" people here and not everyone has a pickup truck but most have a motorbike,TV, mobile phone, somewhere to live, be it ever so 'umble and nobody is starving.

Not that many are very rich either and most of the kids go to school though not all of them finish the full course.

Most seem to be fairly happy and have enough for cigarettes, lao kao etc and some of the women come to play cards with my MIL. Nobody wins or loses that much though they take it very seriously and I think that over a month they come out roughly even. I used to wonder to myself if they had anything better to do and after a while I worked out that they actually didn't have anything better to do.

In my western way of thinking I can always find things to do, go online, play games on the computer, read a book, do odd jobs around the house and land but the can't because they don't have a computer or they can't get an online connection, they don't read books but they do watch TV, eat and talk to each other and boy do they talk.

Fortunately we don't get any do-gooders coming this way I am glad to say.

[mikhill]

I think I might have sobered up enough to remenber what I previousy wanted to say about Isaan. My daughter went to boarding school in Si Sa Ket for 6 years and was very happy there. She is now in university in Bangkok. We have many friends from her school chums and their parents. My daughter has stayed at their houses and her friends have stayed with us. What I particularly remember is my wife apologising to one girl who stayed with us that the house was not particularly "Suay". Her comment was she didnt look at people houses but looked for a good heart. I think this sums up the better part of Isaan

[transam]

I live on the other side of Thailand in Khampaeng Phet province near the Mae Wong national park.

There are not that many "poor" people here and not everyone has a pickup truck but most have a motorbike,TV, mobile phone, somewhere to live, be it ever so 'umble and nobody is starving.

Not that many are very rich either and most of the kids go to school though not all of them finish the full course.

Most seem to be fairly happy and have enough for cigarettes, lao kao etc and some of the women come to play cards with my MIL. Nobody wins or loses that much though they take it very seriously and I think that over a month they come out roughly even. I used to wonder to myself if they had anything better to do and after a while I worked out that they actually didn't have anything better to do.

In my western way of thinking I can always find things to do, go online, play games on the computer, read a book, do odd jobs around the house and land but the can't because they don't have a computer or they can't get an online connection, they don't read books but they do watch TV, eat and talk to each other and boy do they talk.

Fortunately we don't get any do-gooders coming this way I am glad to say.

I heard JW's are in your area soon. .............................

[downtown]

very interesting post Jim and i agree with you to a certain extent. next month wifey and my 2 year old daughter make our annual trip to the village and for those few weeks i love it there and the different pace of life/different values. i know a lot of other foreigner husbands who wouldnt set foot in their wife's village because they're snobs=their loss

on previous two trips my daughter loved life in the village; nature, animals, playing outside(which she cant do at home). but by living their we would limit her future. it reminds of that english guy living as a farmer in issan(the one on youtube, speak thai fluently and advises on farming issues). his children are growing up in the village. some might argue he's denying them a decent education and deciding their future for himself but hey they're his kids

[glennb6]

shitloads of gambling, drunks, petty thefts, laziness, crude behavior, dirty-muddy or dusty, water runs/water doesn't run, electric works/electric cuts off, extortion, loansharking, ignorant jealous peasants many, stinks of rubber/burning garbage, and smiles to coverup true thoughts.... I'm trying to hum a mary poppins tune to this, these are a few of my favorite things (my village is).

but, there are some good points too...please remind me.

[jamescollister]

very interesting post Jim and i agree with you to a certain extent. next month wifey and my 2 year old daughter make our annual trip to the village and for those few weeks i love it there and the different pace of life/different values. i know a lot of other foreigner husbands who wouldnt set foot in their wife's village because they're snobs=their loss

on previous two trips my daughter loved life in the village; nature, animals, playing outside(which she cant do at home). but by living their we would limit her future. it reminds of that english guy living as a farmer in issan(the one on youtube, speak thai fluently and advises on farming issues). his children are growing up in the village. some might argue he's denying them a decent education and deciding their future for himself but hey they're his kids

Fair points on the education for kids, all things I considered when we moved here. Often here this, the kids have a limited future living in the countryside, but do they really.

My kids have a much better chance of say becoming a doctor in Thailand than in Australia. Well no chance in OZ as it costs over $250,000 to attend medical school. They are young, have plenty of time and the best teaching system in the world is there on your computer screen.

Anyway maybe the dogooders will come over and sponsor them the attend Uni in the USA, won't hold my breathe on that one. Jim

[jamescollister]

shitloads of gambling, drunks, petty thefts, laziness, crude behavior, dirty-muddy or dusty, water runs/water doesn't run, electric works/electric cuts off, extortion, loansharking, ignorant jealous peasants many, stinks of rubber/burning garbage, and smiles to coverup true thoughts.... I'm trying to hum a mary poppins tune to this, these are a few of my favorite things (my village is).

but, there are some good points too...please remind me.

Glenn, when you awake tomorrow morning, think would I rather be here, or getting up to go to work back in the US. Jim

[Pormax]

Well Jim I too live in a rural Isaan village in Buriram, 20kms fom the nearest town. I do believe that in this area people are very poor and could do with, and would welcome, some help even if only from the government. I would say that 90% of the village have large bank loans and while these might be paid off when the rice is harvested they will have to borrow again early next year. Work here is very hard to find that is why so many villagers leave their childen with grandparents and go down to Rayong, Bangkok etc to work. No I am not talking bars here but building sites working 8 hours a day for 300B. My wife's 2 sisters and cousin are doing just that. My wife's sisters have 3 children who go to school and this alone costs her 250B a day. The word 'poor' though is of course relative. They might not think they are poor because this has been their way of life for years and you don't hear them complain that much..

Agreed material wealth does not bring happiness and the villagers seem (on the outside anyway) to be content with their lives. I am sure though as I said before if help was there, they would galdly accept it and be very grateful, and if people want to offer help advice or whatever that is up to them.

As far as good education is concerned, yes I do believe that children are better educated in the Cities. Here 'in the sticks' the teaching is very sub standard.

In my home country (UK) there are also many problems with run down areas, gang warefare, drug taking, shitty unkept homes etc but one has to be honest help from doo-gooders there should not be given because with the welfare state in the UK there is no need for it. If there is no work you get money for housing and food and they still have the 32" Plasma TV screen and other mod cons and run a car. A lot different than here.

No rural Isaan is not a living hell, I love it here in my village, but I also accept that much more could be done and should be done for those in rural areas. I am sure there are many places in the world a lot worse off than rural Thailand.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Pormax

[billd766]

I live on the other side of Thailand in Khampaeng Phet province near the Mae Wong national park.

There are not that many "poor" people here and not everyone has a pickup truck but most have a motorbike,TV, mobile phone, somewhere to live, be it ever so 'umble and nobody is starving.

Not that many are very rich either and most of the kids go to school though not all of them finish the full course.

Most seem to be fairly happy and have enough for cigarettes, lao kao etc and some of the women come to play cards with my MIL. Nobody wins or loses that much though they take it very seriously and I think that over a month they come out roughly even. I used to wonder to myself if they had anything better to do and after a while I worked out that they actually didn't have anything better to do.

In my western way of thinking I can always find things to do, go online, play games on the computer, read a book, do odd jobs around the house and land but the can't because they don't have a computer or they can't get an online connection, they don't read books but they do watch TV, eat and talk to each other and boy do they talk.

Fortunately we don't get any do-gooders coming this way I am glad to say.

I heard JW's are in your area soon. .............................

I will set the attack cats on them and burn fiery crosses at the gate.

[glennb6]

james,

I don't need to wait until tomorrow morning and I'm not changing addresses, and that's a hell of a damning comment I'm therefore making on the ussa. Also the more I talk to other ausies, brits, westerners, the more they say the same thing about their respective homelands. I do live in an 'extra special' village and know that there are better ones around.

[bergen]

Great topic Jim!!

[jay-uk]

Some 10 years ago I would have been guilty of feeling that rural Isaan was full of poorer Thais but the coin has flipped and the west is getting poorer and the east richer. Any SE/Asian countries on the door step of China will enoy an increase in trade relations and farmers enjoy an increase in food prices. The UK has just had its worst yield for farm crops for many years and prices are on the rise as a result. If food continues to be in short supply around the world affected by weather, increasing population, change in diets and ever increasing use of land for biofuels then farming may not be such a bad past time in future for the next generation of our kids IF they get to enjoy higher prices for their crops in time. The world's in a strange way but my take is that the poor farmers will not be so poor for very much longer. Others argue different and i might be wrong but i used to think about saving to put my kids through uni but think differently now as many with degrees are struggling to find a job even at mcdonalds in the west. So what was the point of all that eductaion if no jobs exists at the end and the economies are on a decline for some time. Its the west in need of help right now!

[Suradit69]

I spent 25 years working/living in a rural African setting for a US based charitable organization. There are a lot of frustrations, satisfactions, failures and successes, from both the stand-point of the donors and the recipients of aid.

Initially most people involved in this sort of work are long on both enthusiasm & ignorance. You can’t live in the US or Europe or Australia (or for that matter much of Thailand) and really have any meaningful understanding of life in an environment where disease, superstition, war, tribalism are relentlessly weighing you down and aspirations are either set at little more than just surviving from one day to the next or set at some unrealistically high level that leads inevitably to disappointment.

Also inevitable, those raising funds for charity or those choosing to actually go into these areas, will over-estimate their understanding of what’s really needed and under-estimate the knowledge possessed by the targets of their charity. I saw a lot of money go to waste either through ineptitude or corruption ... on both sides of the giving-receiving relationship.

Usually among the do-gooders ignorance fades in time to be replaced by an informed understanding or else a debilitating cynicism. Some people manage to remain enthusiastic while others pack it in and leave or else they settle in to exploit the situation to suit their own agenda while carping about everything endlessly. In some respects it mirrors the enthusiasm turned to cynicism of some long-term expats residing in Thailand.

When it comes to “saving the world,” the indigenous population often is better situated to know what is really needed and how to implement realistic improvements. Foreigners, whatever their educational or practical background, dumped into a culture and physical environment totally different from anything they’ve ever experienced, are almost always going to fail to some extent and quite often manage to generate bad feelings locally and for the funding source.

On the other hand, dumping money into local hands is nearly always a recipe for disaster. Equating poverty & lack of education with stupidity is a mistake. People who manage to survive grinding poverty quite often are clever in surprising ways, especially when it comes to creative allocation of externally sourced funds. I recall a primary school headmaster who found numerous foreign funding sources for the same three classroom addition to his school. Each of the several organizations sent out delegations to inspect the same three classrooms that they believed they alone had paid for. The headmaster kept his new LandRover parked out of sight.

I will say that the most effective organizations on the ground where I was were the Catholic Church, the Salvation Army and a few other fairly low-key religious groups. I know the former has had a lot of bad press because of abuse of some people they served, but in most cases very good, dedicated people did meaningful work in education and provision of medical services that would otherwise have been unavailable. Their workers tend to be totally fluent in the local language, live frugally themselves and absorb local people into the operations they undertake.

The Salvation Army ran a hospital in a remote area near where I stayed as well as operating a secondary school and a residential facility for lepers. Aside from being in a remote area it was also an area in which a military conflict went on for a number of years. They didn't blow their own horn much and the number of people they were able to positively impact was relatively small, but it would be difficult to fault their work.

I know we used to regard with dread the newly arrived “do-gooders,” whether individuals who were out to save the world or, even worse, groups that would descend on us for a few weeks, bringing along shipments of expired drugs or other useless rubbish that US companies “donated” for the tax write-off or else they came in order to do “good works” like paint buildings or dig ditches or whatever and bond with the locals. They usually ended up being more of a burden than providing any useful help and their much ballyhooed donations were often worthless. Still, at one time we were all newly arrived and full of ourselves as well.

I would say, based on my experience, looking at inviduals affected, a lot of good can come from the efforts of do-gooders. Lives were saved, useful skills were gained, self-sustaining productivity was created. Looking at the big picture, it’s hard to say whether the overall effect was positive, negative or of no consequence in the greater scheme of things. Sometimes the process has as much or more value than the results.

I agree with the OP in that a lot of the noise generated by do-gooders can be irritating, ill-conceived and will probably either be non-productive or sometimes even counter-productive. But the world would not be a better place if there was no concern for others or no willingness to make some personal sacrifices for others or no demonstration that we care about others.

If nothing else, some well-meaning, overly enthusiastic do-gooders can provide a bit of entertainment in areas with poor television reception.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Suradit69

[jamescollister]

There have been some good replies to this topic, very interesting. It is my birthday and the wife has bought me a bottle of whiskey and I am drunk. Tomorrow I will tell the story of the NGO who built a fish pond out this way. Jim

[lizardtongue]

I have tried living in the sticks I am afraid to say that it wasn't for me! But good luck to all of you who are content with your life.

The consensus of opinion appears to be that the rural Thai are not poor but happy living their way of life (The real Thailand perhaps?), the only negative comment I have is that if this were to be totally true, why is it that I continually read/hear stories of Westerners being asked for money etc etc from these so called contented Thai people?

[jamescollister]

I have tried living in the sticks I am afraid to say that it wasn't for me! But good luck to all of you who are content with your life.

The consensus of opinion appears to be that the rural Thai are not poor but happy living their way of life (The real Thailand perhaps?), the only negative comment I have is that if this were to be totally true, why is it that I continually read/hear stories of Westerners being asked for money etc etc from these so called contented Thai people?

Still awake and not sober , that;s for sure. Think Thais ask for money the same way as anyone does when they see a sucker will to give.

Don't know where you are from, but willing to bet there is a line of banks, investment companies happy to take your cash. Jim

[IsaanAussie]

I remember Robin Williams doing a routine about his kids and how he worried about their future. Two thoughts entered his mind as he dreamed about it. He could imagine his child thanking the Nobel Academy for the peace prize, but also asking the question "Do you want fries with that?".

I agree with many others, great topic Jim.

IMHO, rural Thai society is at a turning point. Thailand is changing into a developed nation and with it our western "unsustainable" lifestyle is touching more of them. For those of us who except that cultural differences exist and that just because we have those differences does not make one viewpoint right or wrong, just different, enjoy the easy going lifestyle here in the "bush" before the world swallows it up.

[somo]

There have been some good replies to this topic, very interesting. It is my birthday and the wife has bought me a bottle of whiskey and I am drunk. Tomorrow I will tell the story of the NGO who built a fish pond out this way. Jim

Happy birthday Jim

[Lickey]

The more you help the under-priveliged, the less they help themselves, proven time & time again in Africa.

[theslime]

There have been some good replies to this topic, very interesting. It is my birthday and the wife has bought me a bottle of whiskey and I am drunk. Tomorrow I will tell the story of the NGO who built a fish pond out this way. Jim

Hey Buddy Why don,t you go over and see how the Charcoal Makers live in your Issan Idyll.

[theslime]

The more you help the under-priveliged, the less they help themselves, proven time & time again in Africa.

Got any specific cases? Jesus must have got it all wrong.

[Suradit69]

The more you help the under-priveliged, the less they help themselves, proven time & time again in Africa.

I would disagree both with your statement and the alleged proof, although it's a convenient excuse for not sharing or caring.