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The Life Of Thailand's Mae Chee Kaew


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Posted

I read the book yesterday and have to say it would give some interesting answers to many of the questions by members of this forum...especially regarding meditation, realms, and karma.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

Very moving story.

I'll take the time to read it.

I found this part interesting:

Over time, the physical elements

gradually coalesced and crystallized, forming dense, hard gemstones

— some translucent and angular like crystal, others colorful

and polished smooth like beach pebbles. Such bone relics, the physical

remnants of an arahant’s pure essence, are an ineffable mystery

of the mind’s pure essence: lifeless bone fragments transmuting into

diamonds and pearls. They indicate the cleansing effect that the pure

mind of the arahant exerts on the body’s material elements. The intrinsic

level of samādhi that an arahant maintains throughout all

daily activities works steadily to cleanse those basic elements until

they too become purified. That purifying action results in a transmutation

of ordinary bone into crystalline relics after they pass away.

The extraordinary beauty and brilliance of Mae Chee Kaew’s bone

relics were often cited as proof — should further proof be needed

— that she was indeed an ariya sāvikā, a genuine daughter of the Lord

Buddha.

If the Arahants pure mind had a cleansing effect over the body's material elements, can this also cleanse ones ailments, particularly the extreme suffering aspect of Mae Chee Kaew's condition?

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted (edited)

Very moving story.

I'll take the time to read it.

I found this part interesting:

Over time, the physical elements

gradually coalesced and crystallized, forming dense, hard gemstones

— some translucent and angular like crystal, others colorful

and polished smooth like beach pebbles. Such bone relics, the physical

remnants of an arahant’s pure essence, are an ineffable mystery

of the mind’s pure essence: lifeless bone fragments transmuting into

diamonds and pearls. They indicate the cleansing effect that the pure

mind of the arahant exerts on the body’s material elements. The intrinsic

level of samādhi that an arahant maintains throughout all

daily activities works steadily to cleanse those basic elements until

they too become purified. That purifying action results in a transmutation

of ordinary bone into crystalline relics after they pass away.

The extraordinary beauty and brilliance of Mae Chee Kaew’s bone

relics were often cited as proof — should further proof be needed

— that she was indeed an ariya sāvikā, a genuine daughter of the Lord

Buddha.

If the Arahants pure mind had a cleansing effect over the body's material elements, can this also cleanse ones ailments, particularly the extreme suffering aspect of Mae Chee Kaew's condition?

I believe it was from one of Ajahn Lees books, but as far as the body's elements changing, it depends on the time whenever they attained arahantship. Luang Pu Sao's were almost immediate, as he attained fairly early on, while a few others took some time.

Regardless of whether they're an arahant, they still have the 5 khandas, so they do experience pain (emotional attachment I'm still a bit confused on - I dare not ask about it yet, though), which can be blocked out though, I'm sure. There's a book by Luang Ta Maha Bua where he talks about this, though he speaks from the p.o.v of a forest monk, so it may sound blunt to some.

I read this book around January of last year. The translator is a wonderful, well-practiced monk, and his monks are top-of-the-line, as well. There is no play at that temple, but solid practice. For those who can put up with it, it is in the higher regions of Loei. However, although the weather may be cold the area that it is built it is incredible. Wonderful views, and kutis well-placed. For a while I couldn't find my walking path - it turns out it was on the drop of a small embankment. From what I remember laypeople are not constant stays there, but it wouldn't hurt to take a visit. When I was there there were at leaast 3 English speakers, and a German, about 3 Thais (there was also a European Pa Kao who was excited about requesting ordination - he had attained a retreat at Luang Ta Maha Bua's temple a few weeks before and was very very inspired)

The abbot is special. His two senior monks (one of which is a student of Luang Ta Maha Bua), one I unfortunately did not have the chance to meet, as he was in the midst of the chaos when Luang Ta Maha Bua died, but the translator I did. The sala is beautiful, and as like other mountainous areas in Loei, at night one can hear nothing but nature. No cars (the occasional sneeze from a monk though, lol, and perhaps a snake or two).

There are also a couple of other machis who were believe to have attained, but most books about them are in Thai and have yet to be translated.

edit* If anyone's interested, at most prominent temples of past arahants they will have the relics on display (Luang Pu Kao, Ajahn Cha, etc.). But if you really want to delve into it, please take a visit to Wat Asokaram, where the Dhutanga Chedi houses the relics of MANY, MANY arahant monks from the last century (as well as Ajahn Lee's body which watches the main chant hall to the left). Meditation can be done on the second floor and there's daily chanting three times a day (with the excpetion of Wan Phra) - English chant books are there as well, though the format is a bit dated. There's also a large library of well-translated to English books, and the librarian is always happy to see a 'foreigner.'

There's also another well-placed passage in the Biography of Ajahn Mun that references to Machi Gaeow as well, that adds quite a bit to this biography.

Edited by hookedondhamma
Posted

There's a book by Luang Ta Maha Bua where he talks about this, though he speaks from the p.o.v of a forest monk, so it may sound blunt to some.

I believe this is in the excellent biography of Ajahn Man, although it could be in Patipada. The relics of Ajahn Man can be seen in a building that looks like a Christian church at Wat Pa Sutthawat in Sakhon Nakhon.

  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)

I read the book yesterday and have to say it would give some interesting answers to many of the questions by members of this forum...especially regarding meditation, realms, and karma.

I'm still reading through it, and finding it very inspiring and informative.

Especially Mae Chee Kaews experimentation:

She knew that many of the monks in Ajaan Mun’s tutelage found fasting to be a valuable tool for advancing their spiritual development.

Although Monks had taught her that fasting provided great levels of concentration she personally found the opposite.

She pondered how to balance eating and sleeping, walking and sitting, communal and personal.

She wondered how to maintain a sharp, mindful focus during each changing moment, and every new circumstance, throughout the day.

Mae Chee Kaew experimented with fasting, going entirely without food for several days at a time. But she discovered that lack of food

left her feeling mentally dull and sluggish, and vulnerable to changing moods and wayward thoughts, as if the flow of her spiritual energy

was somehow constricted.

For her fasting was not the way, but dispensing with sleep unlocked great advances.

She discovered that refraining from sleep rendered her mind so bright and sharp, so calm and serene, mindful and alert, that she practiced continuously for twenty-one days without

ever lying down.

This confirms some of my personal experience, that we are all different and need to find our own balance of practices (eating, exercising, practicing, chanting, sleep) to advance our spiritual journey.

I personally would fall apart if deprived of sleep.

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted (edited)

I can see parallels in our lives in Mae Chee Kaews writing.

She had little time for practice, and the rigors of her personal life and household cluttered her mind with endless petty concerns.

She worked her duties with persistence, and perseverance.

After ordaining, although she was short on practice her skill and proficiency in performing anything she tackled, allowed her to quckly regain her lost treasure:

Seated in meditation, surrounded by the late-night stillness, her body and mind seemed to fall abruptly, as if off a steep cliff, or down a well; and everything vanished into absolute stillness.

Nothing registered in her awareness but the awareness itself — awareness permeated with a knowing presence so profound and so vibrant that it totally transcended body and mind.

The experience lasted for only a brief moment, a moment of perfect peace.

As she emerged from it, her mind sharp and radiantly clear, she knew that she had finally reclaimed a lost treasure.

By performing our daily work mindfully, dutifully and well we are honing our skills.

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted (edited)

I read the book yesterday and have to say it would give some interesting answers to many of the questions by members of this forum...especially regarding meditation, realms, and karma.

Reading further, Mae Chee Kaews practice allowed her to communicate with beings of many realms.

She quotes many interactions with ghosts, devas, spirits and wild animals.

She talks about levels of consciousness states, not physical places or physical existence.

She indicates that higher states relate to more refined levels of consciousness, whilst lower states refer to the opposite.

These states of consciousness are referred to as being spiritual in nature.

There is a spiritual ascent or decent depending on ones actions and kharma.

This brings us back to the contentious "soul" or "spirit" question.

The Buddha quotes that nothing is permanent, but in a constant state of change, and that everything which is born will eventually decay and die away, and there is no permant self (spirit, soul).

Did the Buddha deliberately teach "anatta" , in order to overcome ego, or "anatta" a fact?

Mae Chee Kaews stories are awash with matters spiritual and commonality.

The wild beast, or the vituous ghost, or the deva, all lived in different forms, and strive to ascend to other forms in the future.

Each is a constant (lineage) but the level (realm) one occupies is due to the spiritual nature of ones consciousness.

Realm ascent or descent is accomplished through spiritual refinement of consciousness.

The spirit is constant but its refinement varies.

These are the words of Mae Chee Kaew who, during periods of samadhi, made contant with beings of various relms as did Ajaan Khamphan.

Can one be spiritual without spirit?

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted (edited)

I felt this was of great interest.

  • Learning meditation properly requires the guidance of a gifted teacher.
  • The teacher cannot afford to make even the slightest mistake, especially when his disciple is meditating at a very high level.
  • The teacher must know more than the disciple, so that she can respectfully follow his lead.
  • It is wrong for a teacher to teach above his level of understanding. The disciple will not benefit from such instruction.
  • When a teaching is based on direct experience of the truth, gained through penetrating insight, a talented disciple will be able to progress very quickly along the path of wisdom.

It must be quite a challenge, not only to fruitfully spend many hours of practice, but to find and have access to a suitable teacher to guide you.

Mae Chee Kaew was able to use her special powers of perception to find her teachers.

Edited by rockyysdt
  • Like 1
Posted

Mae Chee Kaew reveals, that although we practice awareness, at our mundane level our awareness is of imagery painted by the mind (presumably due to conditioning and other factors).

Upon sensory contact the mind continually paints elaborate pictures of oneself and the outside world.

Believing these to be real/true, from this, associated emotion then flows.

Emotions of attraction, revulsion, or neutrality.

Wisdom and perception through deep meditative contemplation allowed Mae Chee Kaew to see beyond the illusory images and their resultant emotions, allowing her to stop this flow.

Her "knowing essence" dissolved countless instances of habitual images and their resultant emotions before they could establish themselves.

The resultant space of clarity and emptiness of imagery revealed a pure knowing.

Realizing the delusion of distorted conscious perception, her attachment to the distorted world of appearances collapsed automatically.

With this realization Mae Chee Kaew felt her being dissolve expand outward and merge with all things, one essence with the universe, a supreme emptiness, clear bright and still.

This is one reference which aligns with one of my preconceptions of what enlightnment or nibhanna might be.

A reunification with everything (infinity).

Posted

She quotes many interactions with ghosts, devas, spirits and wild animals.

She talks about levels of consciousness states, not physical places or physical existence.

I thought this was a bit confusing in the book. There is at least one place early on where Ajahn Man describes the things she encounters as "visions," but later on this is clearly not the case, i.e. although the beings she meets are seen with her "inner eye" they are still bona fide inhabitants of other realms:

"Ajahn Maha Boowa patiently explained that the phenomena she witnessed were merely things that existed naturally in the universe... Although the worlds that appeared in her spiritual visions were realms of being just as real and distinctive as the human realm, they were also just as external to the awareness that perceived them.

Though not solid and tangible like material objects of perception, they were still separate from the awareness that knew them."

Although it isn't explained in this book, the forest tradition has its own unique definition of the word citta, which is here translated as "consciousness." The way they have it, citta is what continues from life to life and realm to realm. It's also what a skilled meditator can project into other realms. And it neatly explains the presence of disembodied spirits wandering around the earth.

So, these other realms may not be physical, but they are nevertheless not figments of the imagination - something like parallel universes populated by beings of pure energy. How a hungry ghost can feel hungry or a hell being feel pain without physicality, I really don't know. smile.png

With this realization Mae Chee Kaew felt her being dissolve expand outward and merge with all things, one essence with the universe, a supreme emptiness, clear bright and still.

This is one reference which aligns with one of my preconceptions of what enlightnment or nibhanna might be.

Mine too. Once the sense of self and other is dissolved, I don't see how it could not be like this. Ajahn Sumedho makes the point somewhere that nibbana ends the sense of loneliness we feel in being separate from the universe around us.

Posted
With this realization Mae Chee Kaew felt her being dissolve expand outward and merge with all things, one essence with the universe, a supreme emptiness, clear bright and still.

This is one reference which aligns with one of my preconceptions of what enlightnment or nibhanna might be.

Mine too. Once the sense of self and other is dissolved, I don't see how it could not be like this. Ajahn Sumedho makes the point somewhere that nibbana ends the sense of loneliness we feel in being separate from the universe around us.

If it transpires that this is so, the question remains "why?".

Why do we manifest in what I refer to as a singularity (single entity vs one with the inverse), and why are trips back "single tickets" (one way)?

Posted (edited)

She quotes many interactions with ghosts, devas, spirits and wild animals.

She talks about levels of consciousness states, not physical places or physical existence.

I thought this was a bit confusing in the book. There is at least one place early on where Ajahn Man describes the things she encounters as "visions," but later on this is clearly not the case, i.e. although the beings she meets are seen with her "inner eye" they are still bona fide inhabitants of other realms:

"Ajahn Maha Boowa patiently explained that the phenomena she witnessed were merely things that existed naturally in the universe... Although the worlds that appeared in her spiritual visions were realms of being just as real and distinctive as the human realm, they were also just as external to the awareness that perceived them.

Though not solid and tangible like material objects of perception, they were still separate from the awareness that knew them."

Although it isn't explained in this book, the forest tradition has its own unique definition of the word citta, which is here translated as "consciousness." The way they have it, citta is what continues from life to life and realm to realm. It's also what a skilled meditator can project into other realms. And it neatly explains the presence of disembodied spirits wandering around the earth.

So, these other realms may not be physical, but they are nevertheless not figments of the imagination - something like parallel universes populated by beings of pure energy. How a hungry ghost can feel hungry or a hell being feel pain without physicality, I really don't know. smile.png

Isn't this interpretation of "citta" the thing the Buddha wouldn't be drawn on?

You could virtual assign the label "spirit" to this interpretation of "citta".

A permanent unconditioned entity which is:

either

Singular whilst in the state of Samsara or absorbed as one with the universe in the state of Nihbanna.

or

Is already as one with the universe (Nihbanna) but the entities it hosts are oblivious to this.

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted

Why do we manifest in what I refer to as a singularity (single entity vs one with the inverse), and why are trips back "single tickets" (one way)?

When we are born, we are not aware of separation from the universe. This is conditioned into us during the first few years of our lives. The path to nibbana is undoing the process.

  • Like 1
Posted

The way I understand the forest tradition's use of the word citta is that it functions as a model that makes things easier to understand. No need to agonize about what may or may not be passed on from life to life. Some posters on the old esangha forum considered it heretical. :)

Posted (edited)

The way I understand the forest tradition's use of the word citta is that it functions as a model that makes things easier to understand. No need to agonize about what may or may not be passed on from life to life. Some posters on the old esangha forum considered it heretical. smile.png

It makes a fine model, but "a rose by any other name - is still a rose". smile.png

Coming back to the two options I put forward above, I'm leaning to the:

Singular whilst in the state of Samsara or absorbed as one with the universe in the state of Nihbanna, as it carries a single lineage of births.

Then again, if we go by, "we are already enlightened, but just simply not aware due to our delusion and attachments", is suggestive that we (citta) is already united.

Maybe it's both simultaneously?

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted

I just got the book, but haven't read it yet. It does sound interesting. Just an observation, why does soul, spirit or citta have to be eternal? Buddha says that nothing immortal can be found, fair enough. But gods and devas have extreme longevity in comparison to a humans. The egyptians believed the soul could die, others too. Possibly citta is given a kind of 'momentum' by life that takes time to exhaust after death? It would most probably be very simmilar to a hungry ghost in nature, both being the residue of a human life. The term hungry (ghost) may be better thought of as attracted or compelled toward through habit. Not a sensory desire, but an inability to change a mode of behaviour. Citta is reborn to 'work it out' in a sentient manner, petas are incapable of that level of self awareness and so must suffer unknowingly until that kamma is exhausted by attrition. Obviously, speculation.

Also, if we are to become egoless at enlightenment why did Buddha exclaim; "I alone am the world honoured one." upon his achieving nibbana? Seems paradoxical.

Posted (edited)

I just got the book, but haven't read it yet. It does sound interesting. Just an observation, why does soul, spirit or citta have to be eternal? Buddha says that nothing immortal can be found, fair enough. But gods and devas have extreme longevity in comparison to a humans. The egyptians believed the soul could die, others too. Possibly citta is given a kind of 'momentum' by life that takes time to exhaust after death? It would most probably be very simmilar to a hungry ghost in nature, both being the residue of a human life. The term hungry (ghost) may be better thought of as attracted or compelled toward through habit. Not a sensory desire, but an inability to change a mode of behaviour. Citta is reborn to 'work it out' in a sentient manner, petas are incapable of that level of self awareness and so must suffer unknowingly until that kamma is exhausted by attrition. Obviously, speculation.

Also, if we are to become egoless at enlightenment why did Buddha exclaim; "I alone am the world honoured one." upon his achieving nibbana? Seems paradoxical.

You raise interesting points.

If "sitta" wasn't eternal then wouldn't that mean that at some point many lineages (us) would run out of chances (re births) to become enlightened?

Many of us may come close to infinity before becoming enlightened, if at all.

Also, isn't this model of "sitta' the only thing which ties each manifestation of us (lineage) together?

Without it wouldn't there be no continuity, or past memory, or carriage of experience/kharma?

Without it wouldn't there be permanent death for each lineage?

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted

Well, (theoretically) each rebirth would add momentum. Keep the plate spinning on the stick so to speak. Nibbana could be seen as allowing the plate to stop spinning but remaining perfectly balanced. This is of course assuming that time affects mind in the same way as it affects rupa. Because if not then that could make the longevity of citta seem almost immortal in comparison to organic matter.

However now I'm speculating on spirit and time which are two very awkward and confusing subjects so I'm going to leave it there before I have an aneurism.

Posted

According to the Pali dictionary, citta is a synonym for vinnana, or consciousness, specifically (since consciousness is granular) a stream of consciousness. Vinnana is just one of the 5 aggregates, or "groups of existence."

"What is called individual existence is in reality nothing but a mere process of those mental and physical phenomena, a process that since time immemorial has been going on, and that also after death will still continue for unthinkably long periods of time. These 5 groups, however, neither singly nor collectively constitute any self-dependent real ego-entity, or personality atta nor is there to be found any such entity apart from them. Hence the belief in such an ego-entity or personality, as real in the ultimate sense, proves a mere illusion."

However, in the book, "consciousness" seems to be used more in the modern Western sense of self-awareness.

Posted (edited)

After reading Mae Chee Kaew's story I would say that Baan Taad Forest Monastery in Udon Thani province, would be an excellent place for an ordained Monk to be assigned to, especially if the Ven. Ajaan Mahā Boowa Ñāṇasampanno and his senior disciples continue to operate there.

A place where teaching is based on direct experience of the truth.

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted

biggrin.png

Mine too. Once the sense of self and other is dissolved, I don't see how it could not be like this. Ajahn Sumedho makes the point somewhere that nibbana ends the sense of loneliness we feel in being separate from the universe around us.

------------------

Just my personal opiniom.....but I agree strongly with this statement.

At least the realization that the sense of self and other is dissolved was a key to my understanding personally.... whatever that "understanding" is now.

The only point I might change is that it was NOT that the sense of self and other was dissolved for me ... those two things still exist as a construct ,,,,, but it's just ()for me, anyhow) once those two things were realised (understood) as the illusion/delusion of the Ego Self (my so-called Mind or Self) by me ... I then understood therefore they were artificial constructs of my Ego Self Mind.

Because they were artificial constucts of my Ego Mind.... I saw they were without any real intrinsic nature.

And thderefore, since Self and Other were both articial constructs.... that led to the realisation that all such constructs were in fact interdependent .... all esentially one.

For me, that made all the difference in my personal understanding.

At least, that was my personal experience.

biggrin.png

Posted

^^^Yes, he did. His senior disciples are there though. There are also other temples in Isaan that have monks who have gone beyond, though they're not as famous as LT Maha Boowa (who was the 'last disciple' of the Arahant Monks of LP Man who was still living).

Posted

^^^Yes, he did. His senior disciples are there though. There are also other temples in Isaan that have monks who have gone beyond, though they're not as famous as LT Maha Boowa (who was the 'last disciple' of the Arahant Monks of LP Man who was still living).

Aren't LT Maha Boowa's senior desciples Arahant?...

Posted (edited)

Just my personal opiniom.....but I agree strongly with this statement.

At least the realization that the sense of self and other is dissolved was a key to my understanding personally.... whatever that "understanding" is now.

The only point I might change is that it was NOT that the sense of self and other was dissolved for me ... those two things still exist as a construct ,,,,, but it's just ()for me, anyhow) once those two things were realised (understood) as the illusion/delusion of the Ego Self (my so-called Mind or Self) by me ... I then understood therefore they were artificial constructs of my Ego Self Mind.

Because they were artificial constucts of my Ego Mind.... I saw they were without any real intrinsic nature.

And thderefore, since Self and Other were both articial constructs.... that led to the realisation that all such constructs were in fact interdependent .... all esentially one.

For me, that made all the difference in my personal understanding.

At least, that was my personal experience.

biggrin.png

Very much so, but until one reaches a high level of practice/experience the attachment to self vs other is extremely powerful.

After years of exceptional practice Mae Chee Kaew was still very much attached to self.

She spoke of her experience, attainment of the radiant emptiness of mind that permeated the entire cosmos and transcended all conditions.

Mind transcended conditions of time and space. A luminous essence of being that seemed boundless, yet wondrously empty, permeated everything throughout the universe. Everything seemed to be filled by

a subtle quality of knowing, as if nothing else existed. Cleansed of the things that clouded and obscured its all-encompassing essence, her mind revealed its true power.

And yet, as Ajaan Mahā Boowa instructed, this state was also illusory as there remained the observer.

When you finally realize that the room can never be truly empty until you depart, that is the moment when that fundamental delusion about your true self disintegrates, and the pure, delusion-free mind arises.

At our mundane level it's very easy to fall into the clutches of self/ego.

Apart from all of lifes experiences awaiting our illusory pleasure, pain and fear are very personal.

Very few can share our pain, anxiety and fear making the chasm between us vs unity (one) even greater.

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted

The above was one of my favourite passages too. The book was beautifully translated and, unlike books bought on Amazon that are riddled with typos, free of errors. If anything, it was even more inspiring than the biography of Ajahn Man. They had the same type of meditation problems, but Ajahn Man had to solve them on his own. However, less detail is given about his meditative experiences because he was wandering around the jungle on his own. By contrast, Mae Chee Kaew was relating her experiences in detail on a regular basis to someone of superior attainments. I enjoyed this book more than any of the stories in Kornfield's Living Dharma.

Posted (edited)

The above was one of my favourite passages too. The book was beautifully translated and, unlike books bought on Amazon that are riddled with typos, free of errors. If anything, it was even more inspiring than the biography of Ajahn Man. They had the same type of meditation problems, but Ajahn Man had to solve them on his own. However, less detail is given about his meditative experiences because he was wandering around the jungle on his own. By contrast, Mae Chee Kaew was relating her experiences in detail on a regular basis to someone of superior attainments. I enjoyed this book more than any of the stories in Kornfield's Living Dharma.

From the time her husband Bunmaa allowed her to ordain until she attained awakening it took about 30 years.

This was with the resources of an ordained Nun, Arahant teaches to guide her, and a level of re birth in which she may have had only a little dust in her eyes.

Alas, I'm (my ego) is fast running out of time and still mired in self.

Once Mae Chee Kaew was able to discern the false imagery associated with sensory perception, and she began to perceive things for what they actually were, attachment fell away.

The mind’s usual sense of physical limitation and embodiment completely disappeared.

She felt her being dissolve, expand outward and merge with all things, as though forming one essence with the universe; resting within, unfettered by any dependency, was a supreme emptiness — clear, bright and still.

Even this stage was illusory.

She had to let go of the observer.

For sometime she clung to this illusory state as if it was Nibhanna.

If she did attach herself permanently to this state, would this be "kharma" (action) which would attract "vipaka"?

Edited by rockyysdt
Posted

Still trying to read it. Its a bit, well, sweet for my taste. And some things don't add up. She donates land to visiting monks. Is it normal for adolescent girls to own land here? She sneaks into a monastery for the serene atmosphere, yet this monastery seems to have vanished when the other monks arrive and propagate Dhamma. She attains samadhi at first go, remains there all night and doesn't realise it was unlike sleeping. Thats as far as I got before stopping. I'm omitting a joke about diabetes for fear of wrong speech.

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