Favorite Health Food Stores In Chiang Mai?

[hellodolly]

Hmm, I see there is this discussion about saturated fat going on. There are many articles on the web where in new research tells us saturated fat is not as bad as scientist thought they were. But there are good and less good saturated fat for us who live on a western based diet. Ulysses gives the example of the Masai people, there are more population (Inuit, Mongols) who eat/ate a diet based on meat and dairy. I remember my father ate a lot of fat parts of meat/fish.

There are two things we have to take in consideration, first is the western based diet with cereals and specialy wheat, a lot of sugars and the prefabricated and processed foods and not to forget the alcohol consumption, have a negatif effect on our fat intake. Second, there where people have to do a lot of efforts in their live, you can use (a lot) more fat.

When we like to see evidence, we have to realize, research results change with the years. because everything (and people too) changes. What seems to be true for now, ca be not true in 10 years. New discoveries take place every moment.

What I try to do (now) is listen to my body and that have learned me the simple fact that moderation is basic for a good health and this is certainly true for the (saturated) fat intake.

All so true in ten years they will have different studies indicating different results.

I don't pretend to be a expert on the subject but it seems strange to me that before super markets Eskimos ate seals. Laplander's ate Caribu who studies say do not have enough nutrician to keep you alive the Asian's ate rice and many other countries survived on different diets. Some fish. Now we come along and hear how bad some thing is four us no matter that there is whole populations successfully living on it for generations. Or the opposite that you need this but once again there are populations who live for generations with out it.

I agree train yourself to listen to your body. Throw your books away. I have been trying to listen to my body now for a year and have dropped 10 kilos with out making to big a change in my diet other than dropping chocolate bars out of it not that I ate that many any how.

It involved changing my eating patterns. all I did was start to eat other things and I discovered that they were preferable to what I had been eating. Give your self a chance.

[hellodolly]

Very sensible advice given by Joop in post #55. And yes, follow the "golden mean" like the Greeks advised thousands of years ago. I think Dr. Weil gets it right in his final statement (quoted above): "Continue to emphasize fruits, vegetables and whole grains, and limit sweeteners and other high-glycemic-load carbs." Some of his recommendations regarding organic dairy products from cows grazing on grass may be difficult to follow here, no?

I think it's quite clear that Dr. Weil does endorse consumption of full fat milk products and not merely" that recent research suggests they are not as linked to coronary disease as previously thought; that is far from saying they are "good for the human body." Words have meanings, and so do paragraphs. Might do well to look up the subject of glass houses.

Well words do mean things but first you have to have a base to start some of them on.

For instance the article says and i quote.

"but in moderation"

First off the word but is generally followed by self justification

Secondly what is moderation 10% 35% what? Give me some thing that I can work with.

[TheVicar]

On doctors changing positions on the benefits or harms of foods, I remember the classic Woody Allen movie "Sleeper." I saw it decades ago but still recall a scene in which the doctors of the "new century" are all eating enormous portions of ice cream out of huge bowls.

Woody Allen sees this and says something like, "But I thought ice cream with all those calories and sugar was bad for your health! Why are you eating it?" The Doctor of the new age says, "Oh, that's all discredited 20th century medicine. Such primitive thinking. Actually, we've found ice cream to be the best balanced and healthiest of all foods!" Note that Dr. Weil even compliments ice cream above.

[femi fan]

I don't believe that Dr. Weil, even in his updated report as quoted, is saying what you are: that saturated fats "are most definitely good for the human body." What he appears to be saying, in his update, is that recent research suggests they are not as linked to coronary disease as previously thought; that is far from saying they are "good for the human body." Do you understand the difference, or is it beyond you?

Kasem was mentioned as a health food store by others. In fact, if you go back and reread my original post, you will see that I call to the OP's attention the fact that he need NOT go to health food stores for the products listed because Rimping supermarkets have such a large and good variety of the products he listed. Another poster called you out on the country of origin for a product and gave you the information you requested and you simply disregarded his post, calling in a later post for something else. That is being dishonest.

Words have meanings, that seems to be beyond your comprehension.

No single person could possibly be the authority on what is good for health and what is bad. For a start everybody is different and some foods good for some people turn out to be poisons for others.

From memory it was ancel keys and his selectively analysed research back in the 50s or 60s who put the blame for heart health problems on saturated fats. At the same kind of time john yudkin was showing clearly that sugar was the culprit. Because of various reasons, including the power of the sugar industry and others, the whole 'health' industry went for keys' findings, not yudkin's. Come the turn of the century, and with massive epidemic obesity now commonplace in the US and UK and other western developed nations, the awful truth started to hit home to those without financial agendas: the health problems of the developed populations were in dire straits due to their refined carbohydrate (sugar) intake, along with the soda drinks that are chockfull of refined sugars. Saturated fat, so long the enemy, has now been seen to be an essential part of a healthy diet. This of course has been known by many peoples around the world, but not known to the 'developed' peoples and nations due to the vested interests that run food business.

Coconuts, absolutely full of saturated fats, are clearly healthy foods.

The problem we face is that the research and information on healthy foods is all out there, but it's obfuscated in the mainstream media in order to allow the fantastic profit margins to be continued for sugars, other refined carbs, and processed foods which are full of such sugars and very very bad fats.

Regardless of thevicar's words, i urge interested posters to do the research themselves on saturated fats. Many many people who follow healthy lives have had to combine doing their own research with listening to their own bodies. They have come to the conclusion that saturated fats have an important place on their plates.

Assuming of course that they're not from animals fed hormones, antibiotics, and abnormal foods in their short miserable 'lives'.

We are so lucky here in thailand to have coconuts so available and so cheap.

[femi fan]

For those interested let me offer two links. The first is a presentation film which demonstrates the lethal nature of white sugar and what an absolute poison it is, while the second link is by gary taubes. I have never come across anybody who has done so much research to present his subject. It's easy to cherry pick what one reads to fit a pre-determined agenda, but taubes seems to have literally researched every single book on the subject of fats. It's a simply amazing piece of work he's done, and should be required reading for anybody interested in taking care of their own health.

I think the best approach to health eating and living is to start off with the basics, ie eat only whole foods and avoid all processed and refined foods; then slowly but surely do one's research on the net and in books (chiang mai second hand bookshops have a large choice of such books that put my country england to utter shame) and slowly learn to listen to the body. Like any second language this takes time and patience and growing skill.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

A last point: it took me quite some time to work out to my satisfaction how to decide what oils and fats are good and which ones are bad. What i have come to accept as true is this:

buy only cold-pressed fats - high heats change the molecular structure and make the fats carcinogenic

choose fats with a high smoke point for deep frying

after that one can be fairly safe. Some fats of course are extremely healthy and lack of them causes all kinds of body ailments.

As for white sugar: avoid it like the plague. Clearly the odd bit won't cause the immune system too much work, but many people are taking in a dozen or more teaspoons of the stuff each and every day. Guaranteed health problems down the line. Don't take my word for it, my advice is always to do your own research. But it's always useful to hear what others are saying as a starting base.

[femi fan]

On doctors changing positions on the benefits or harms of foods, I remember the classic Woody Allen movie "Sleeper." I saw it decades ago but still recall a scene in which the doctors of the "new century" are all eating enormous portions of ice cream out of huge bowls.

Woody Allen sees this and says something like, "But I thought ice cream with all those calories and sugar was bad for your health! Why are you eating it?" The Doctor of the new age says, "Oh, that's all discredited 20th century medicine. Such primitive thinking. Actually, we've found ice cream to be the best balanced and healthiest of all foods!" Note that Dr. Weil even compliments ice cream above.

Western doctors, most especially american ones, depend on the results of research conducted by people whose research grants come almost exclusively from big pharma and big ag. When the 'wrong' results are found, the funding dries up.

And even up till the current day i believe, doctors get about one week's worth, or no, training on nutrition and the role of foods on healthy living.

Posters, you'll do well to ignore thevicar's last sentence here, which is a most ingenious interpretation of what the good doctor says. Some ice-creams made with healthy ingredients may be okay, but most of them are unhealthy as dr weil knows well.

Very funny and outstanding film.

[Ulysses G.]

On doctors changing positions on the benefits or harms of foods, I remember the classic Woody Allen movie "Sleeper." I saw it decades ago but still recall a scene in which the doctors of the "new century" are all eating enormous portions of ice cream out of huge bowls.

I always think of that film and hot fudge was something else that they had supposedly found was healthy. Dark chocolate is not too different from fudge and it was considered very unhealthy when that film came out, but is thought to be very healthy now.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Joop50]

There is a shop called Only Natural, behind the market at Mee chok plaza. Not cheap but idealistic people, they make good sourdough bread and make kefir and so on.

surely this place is out of business, no? i live nearby and have not seen it open at all. been meaning to drop in. just rode by earlier today and it looked all locked up with a metal door and no signs out front, only the one on top.

Indeed the place is out of busines unfortunatly, I heard today. You can find it open some houres to sell some rest articals with discount.

[endure]

An off topic post has been removed.

[femi fan]

There is a shop called Only Natural, behind the market at Mee chok plaza. Not cheap but idealistic people, they make good sourdough bread and make kefir and so on.

surely this place is out of business, no? i live nearby and have not seen it open at all. been meaning to drop in. just rode by earlier today and it looked all locked up with a metal door and no signs out front, only the one on top.

Indeed the place is out of busines unfortunatly, I heard today. You can find it open some houres to sell some rest articals with discount.

If that's right, what a pity for them. And a pity for those in chiang mai who wish to frequent health food shops. However he told me they were not getting many customers at all. Instead of course the mcdonalds just a couple of hundred yards south of their shop gets a far larger customer base. This seems to be indicative of most humans, they eat the stuff that's so bad for their health because the adverts told them to, while the really healthy food options offered in shops get minimal interest!

[Ulysses G.]

This seems to be indicative of most humans, they eat the stuff that's so bad for their health because the adverts told them to, while the really healthy food options offered in shops get minimal interest!

Au contraire. People eat the unhealthy stuff because it is pleasurable to eat, not because of advertising. People like fish and chips because of the taste and despite the lack of health benefits.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[femi fan]

This seems to be indicative of most humans, they eat the stuff that's so bad for their health because the adverts told them to, while the really healthy food options offered in shops get minimal interest!

Au contraire. People eat the unhealthy stuff because it is pleasurable to eat, not because of advertising. People like fish and chips because of the taste and despite the lack of health benefits.

Not according to all the thais i used to talk to in bangkok when the mcDs and kfcs and so on were appearing on the scene big time. Time and time again they told me they didn't really like the food sold there, but went there purely because it was cool to go there and be seen there and all that stuff. Most thais have real problems with non-thai food, or western food because it's not spicy. So i'm sure they're ambivalent at best towards those burger things in mcDs. The advertising sold them the illusion, sold them a way of life, and they're buying that way of life first and foremost.

[uptheos]

Just wanted to say that I'm really finding this thread interesting.

[Cheesekraft]

if fats were bad and high carb diets good, we would see the US populations health improving over the last twenty years and perhaps could call pepsi a health food if they put in some trace vitamins

Edited November 8, 2012 by Cheesekraft

[TheVicar]

This seems to be indicative of most humans, they eat the stuff that's so bad for their health because the adverts told them to, while the really healthy food options offered in shops get minimal interest!

Au contraire. People eat the unhealthy stuff because it is pleasurable to eat, not because of advertising. People like fish and chips because of the taste and despite the lack of health benefits.

Not according to all the thais i used to talk to in bangkok when the mcDs and kfcs and so on were appearing on the scene big time. Time and time again they told me they didn't really like the food sold there, but went there purely because it was cool to go there and be seen there and all that stuff. Most thais have real problems with non-thai food, or western food because it's not spicy. So i'm sure they're ambivalent at best towards those burger things in mcDs. The advertising sold them the illusion, sold them a way of life, and they're buying that way of life first and foremost.

This is a most sensible post; I agree completely with the notion that most Thais ORIGINALLY went to McDonald's and the like because it was the in place to be and mostly had modern music too (which most Thai places lacked years ago). BUT, what happened is that this kind of bad food is addictive and so the Thais who went and ate the food, even though originally they might not have liked it (here I agree with Femi Fan for once) , became hooked. Food high in fats is as addictive as cigarettes are.

Note that there are a lot of fat Thais in the McDonald's outlets now; 15 years ago, it was difficult to spot a fat Thai. Now, they're everywhere, just like their farang counterparts who go to such "food" outlets.

Edited November 8, 2012 by TheVicar

[femi fan]

BUT, what happened is that this kind of bad food is addictive and so the Thais who went and ate the food, even though originally they might not have liked it (here I agree with Femi Fan for once) , became hooked. Food high in fats is as addictive as cigarettes are.

TheVicar, now c'mon, how short is your memory?! Perhaps i might refer you to your posts in post #s 6 and 12, for example...

"Thanks Femi Fan,

Lots of good thoughts there."

I'd like to say that not all fats are bad, but certainlly the ones in processed foods and in most if not all fast foods. There's a science to it that the food companies willfully use: create a good mix of bad refined fats sugars and salts and two things happen: the punters love the taste, and the body gets fooled into wanting more and bigger portions. Enter obesity.

Since you're interested in food, the bbc in britain, amazingly, made an outstanding documentary earlier this year called 'the men who made us fat'. I think it had three or four episodes and i managed to see it on youtube at the time. It was a truly groundbreaking film, not so much for what it said, but that it was on mainstream tv in Britain.

It's very important for people concerned with their health to do the research on which are good fats and which ones are the bad ones. We need the former, and the latter are creating epidemics in horrible diseases that no family wants to see one of their members fall prey to. Unfortunately this is happening on a vast scale so that the food companies and big pharma can make their billions in profits. No product on earth has seven billion customers, so it's clear why food is good business!

[femi fan]

Just wanted to say that I'm really finding this thread interesting.

It's rather amazing a healthy food thread has gone on so long!!

[femi fan]

Here, the documentary is still available!! It lists three episodes, all an hour long. I totally recommend watching this excellent film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6nGlLUBkOQ

[Ulysses G.]

I'd like to say that not all fats are bad, but certainlly the ones in processed foods and in most if not all fast foods. There's a science to it that the food companies willfully use: create a good mix of bad refined fats sugars and salts and two things happen: the punters love the taste, and the body gets fooled into wanting more and bigger portions. Enter obesity.

Sounds like Pad Thai, Lad Na, fried rice, fried noodles and lots of other Thai food. Most Thais are not getting fat because of Western food. It is because they can afford to eat a lot more of their own cuisine than 20 years ago and they like to eat all day long.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[femi fan]

I'd like to say that not all fats are bad, but certainlly the ones in processed foods and in most if not all fast foods. There's a science to it that the food companies willfully use: create a good mix of bad refined fats sugars and salts and two things happen: the punters love the taste, and the body gets fooled into wanting more and bigger portions. Enter obesity.

Sounds like Pad Thai, Lad Na, fried rice, fried noodles and lots of other Thai food. Most Thais are not getting fat because of Western food. It is because they can afford to eat a lot more of their own cuisine than 20 years ago and they like to eat all day long.

On what basis are you apparently offering as fact that 'most' thais are getting fatter because they eat more of their own food, and not because of the influx of fast food outlets such as mcDs and 7/11s?

[Ulysses G.]

Most Thais don't eat much Western fast food, but many Thais are becoming overweight and many Thais are getting diabetes. A lot of Thai food is carbs fried in fat with added sugar. Blaming this phenomenon on the West is a politically correct myth.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[femi fan]

Most Thais don't eat much Western fast food, but many Thais are becoming overweight and many Thais are getting diabetes. A lot of Thai food is carbs fried in fat with added sugar. Blaming this phenomenon on the West is a politically correct myth.

Many health commentators, nutritionists, and food scientists in the west will put much of the blame for obesity and being overweight on coke and pepsi. Consumption of this has most definitely increased in thailand compared to 20 years ago when i believe there was yet to be a 7/11. I recall somewhere in the late 90s i think when the 500th store was opened. I guess it must be well over 5000 stores now. Nearly every thai in towns must go to 7/11s and they buy heaps of coke and soft drinks, not to mention most of the other products which are full of sugars.

A visit to hanoi reveals one kfc and no other fast food outlets in the city. All around the city you see the locals on the streets sitting on the little stools socialising and drinking local tea and eating sunflower seeds. Virtually no fat people, just as i recall in bangkok 20 years ago.

Sugar (including hfcs) is the major culprit for obesity and all major nasty diseases. And coke is full of it.

I think you're perpetuating your own myth!

One fried rice = half to one teaspoon of white sugar. One can of coke is about eight teaspoons i think. So that's about a dozen fried rices for one can of coke...

[Ulysses G.]

I lived and worked in Hanoi and there is Coke and soft drinks and candy in all the Vietnamese markets and they love to eat ice cream which is everywhere too. They also eat a lot of white bread and drink lots of beer. The Vietnamese are thinner because they work a lot harder and exercise much more.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[looche]

How to find BaanSuanPak near President Hotel? I've been there and don't remember anything alike.. Thanks in advance!

Edited December 3, 2012 by looche

[hellodolly]

It is easy to blame western food for the Thai's getting larger.

the fact that they will add chilies to there food and then throw in sugar has nothing to do with it. That is Thai food not western food.

Yes it is easy to pick a point you want to prove and then prove it by not looking at studies that disagree with it. Or omitting other mitigating factors. Like ulysses g said some other countries have all the same commodities for consumption but work harder, Look at the statistics on rice tonnage per acre comparing Thailand to Cambodia and Vietnam . You can't tell me they get that much difference with out working harder. Go to a construction site and notice the number of Burmese there. They work hard.

[Ulysses G.]

How to find BaanSuanPak near President Hotel? I've been there and don't remember anything alike.. Thanks in advance!

It is in a small complex on the other side of the street from the President Hotel maybe 50 meters towards the river. There is a vegetarian restaurant on the corner and Baan Suan Pak is about 3 or 4 shops behind it.

[hellodolly]

Most Thais don't eat much Western fast food, but many Thais are becoming overweight and many Thais are getting diabetes. A lot of Thai food is carbs fried in fat with added sugar. Blaming this phenomenon on the West is a politically correct myth.

Many health commentators, nutritionists, and food scientists in the west will put much of the blame for obesity and being overweight on coke and pepsi. Consumption of this has most definitely increased in thailand compared to 20 years ago when i believe there was yet to be a 7/11. I recall somewhere in the late 90s i think when the 500th store was opened. I guess it must be well over 5000 stores now. Nearly every thai in towns must go to 7/11s and they buy heaps of coke and soft drinks, not to mention most of the other products which are full of sugars.

A visit to hanoi reveals one kfc and no other fast food outlets in the city. All around the city you see the locals on the streets sitting on the little stools socialising and drinking local tea and eating sunflower seeds. Virtually no fat people, just as i recall in bangkok 20 years ago.

Sugar (including hfcs) is the major culprit for obesity and all major nasty diseases. And coke is full of it.

I think you're perpetuating your own myth!

One fried rice = half to one teaspoon of white sugar. One can of coke is about eight teaspoons i think. So that's about a dozen fried rices for one can of coke...

Coke Zero and Pepsi Max have no sugar in them. Shows the knowledge of those western scientists.

If it is all the fault of western influence just do what the Thais did before the western foods. They shopped at their markets which are still here. They did not go to health food stores,

In fact They did not have health food stores for special foods.

[TheVicar]

BUT, what happened is that this kind of bad food is addictive and so the Thais who went and ate the food, even though originally they might not have liked it (here I agree with Femi Fan for once) , became hooked. Food high in fats is as addictive as cigarettes are.

TheVicar, now c'mon, how short is your memory?! Perhaps i might refer you to your posts in post #s 6 and 12, for example...

"Thanks Femi Fan,

Lots of good thoughts there."

I'd like to say that not all fats are bad, but certainlly the ones in processed foods and in most if not all fast foods. There's a science to it that the food companies willfully use: create a good mix of bad refined fats sugars and salts and two things happen: the punters love the taste, and the body gets fooled into wanting more and bigger portions. Enter obesity.

Since you're interested in food, the bbc in britain, amazingly, made an outstanding documentary earlier this year called 'the men who made us fat'. I think it had three or four episodes and i managed to see it on youtube at the time. It was a truly groundbreaking film, not so much for what it said, but that it was on mainstream tv in Britain.

It's very important for people concerned with their health to do the research on which are good fats and which ones are the bad ones. We need the former, and the latter are creating epidemics in horrible diseases that no family wants to see one of their members fall prey to. Unfortunately this is happening on a vast scale so that the food companies and big pharma can make their billions in profits. No product on earth has seven billion customers, so it's clear why food is good business!

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Posts 6 and 12 have to do with walnuts and with Rimping being in general a good food store. How is that relevant here and how does it differ from anything else I've posted?

[TheVicar]

Most Thais don't eat much Western fast food, but many Thais are becoming overweight and many Thais are getting diabetes. A lot of Thai food is carbs fried in fat with added sugar. Blaming this phenomenon on the West is a politically correct myth.

Dead wrong on so many counts! If the Thais "don't eat much Western fast food" who are all those Thais I've seen in McDonald's, Kentucky Fried Chicken (far more popular in Thailand than in most western countries), Swenson's etc.? Impersonators? Give us all a break. All you have to do is stroll over to the closest KFC and see who's eating there. I'd venture to say that 80% or more of their customers are Thais, especially young ones. If I had a baht for every Thai I saw eating at McDonalds, KFC, or for every young fat Thai kid I saw coming out slurping on a cone from Dairy Queen or Swenson's, I'd be richer than Warren Buffett. Or talk to Thais about the problem of fat children, in particular, and you will find they almost always say it never was like that in the past and it is because these children are addicted to fat, Western foods.

Thai food has ALWAYS had sugar added to many dishes (stir fry; curry etc.) and the "carbs" you're complaining about come only from rice, a staple, because most everything else in Thai food is vegetable or meat. Thai food is pretty much unchanged over the years so it is not something new: hence, the timing does not explain the rise in the past two decades of fat Thais or fit in with your explanation at all. Fast food does and it is the answer. Have a look at the fast food stores and see how many fat Thai people, especially young ones, are hooked on this junk food. It is addictive! Vietnam, by way of contrast, has far fewer western style fast food places and they are not as popular as fast food is in Thailand (to some extent because the Viets cannot afford, by and large, the high prices of the fast food chains). For many years, McDonald's and other such chains (aside from KFC) were forbidden in Vietnam (I'm not sure if they are allowed even now).

Edited December 4, 2012 by TheVicar

[hellodolly]

Most Thais don't eat much Western fast food, but many Thais are becoming overweight and many Thais are getting diabetes. A lot of Thai food is carbs fried in fat with added sugar. Blaming this phenomenon on the West is a politically correct myth.

Dead wrong on so many counts! If the Thais "don't eat much Western fast food" who are all those Thais I've seen in McDonald's, Kentucky Fried Chicken (far more popular in Thailand than in most western countries), Swenson's etc.? Impersonators? Give us all a break. All you have to do is stroll over to the closest KFC and see who's eating there. I'd venture to say that 80% or more of their customers are Thais, especially young ones. If I had a baht for every Thai I saw eating at McDonalds, KFC, or for every young fat Thai kid I saw coming out slurping on a cone from Dairy Queen or Swenson's, I'd be richer than Warren Buffett. Or talk to Thais about the problem of fat children, in particular, and you will find they almost always say it never was like that in the past and it is because these children are addicted to fat, Western foods.

Thai food has ALWAYS had sugar added to many dishes (stir fry; curry etc.) and the "carbs" you're complaining about come only from rice, a staple, because most everything else in Thai food is vegetable or meat. Thai food is pretty much unchanged over the years so it is not something new: hence, the timing does not explain the rise in the past two decades of fat Thais or fit in with your explanation at all. Fast food does and it is the answer. Have a look at the fast food stores and see how many fat Thai people, especially young ones, are hooked on this junk food. It is addictive! Vietnam, by way of contrast, has far fewer western style fast food places and they are not as popular as fast food is in Thailand (to some extent because the Viets cannot afford, by and large, the high prices of the fast food chains). For many years, McDonald's and other such chains (aside from KFC) were forbidden in Vietnam (I'm not sure if they are allowed even now).

Funny man.

Stop hanging around the western Malls and hang around the Thai markets.

Most Thai towns don't have any of these fast food outlets and the ones that do are inconsequential to the amount of people in the city.

You want every one to believe there is a Dairy Queen, McDonald's, Swensons. Burger King and other fast food outlets on every block. Reality is there isn't and they are few and generally far between.

Thais do not work as hard as they used to and they eat more than they used to.