Offroad - My Front Wheel Is Jumping Sideways In Soft Sand

[TramsRepus]

Hi,

I bought a CRF250L a couple of weeks ago. I love it and it is fun to play with. But one thing is very irritating with it. When driving in soft sand, the front wheel does not keep its track. It is jumping sideways and i'm almost loses my balance especially in higher speeds. It is like driving one a round 10cm and slippery pipe were the front wheel always slips off the center of the pipe.

Any one else having this problem? I'm considering to change the front tire. Any other suggestions? Any tire recommendations?

/T

[taninthai]

Try to keep your weight as far back as possible you want the front of the bike as light as possible ,keep the power on and don't grip the bars to tight ,this is what I have been told

Oh and you should be standing up

Edited November 1, 2012 by taninthai

[TramsRepus]

Try to keep your weight as far back as possible you want the front of the bike as light as possible ,keep the power on and don't grip the bars to tight ,this is what I have been told

Oh and you should be standing up

Hi, Standing up helps and leaning forwards too....I have not tried leaning back though.. The thing is that it is like someone kicks the wheel sideways out of balance. it happens so quick if you approach a small sandy area... I have had a few dirt bikes before when i was younger and have never experiences this problem before...

I'm heading out now and i will test leaning back as you suggests....

Thanks

Edited November 1, 2012 by TramsRepus

[Richard-BKK]

For off-road riding you should lower your tire pressure...

[wantan]

Isn't it normal that the front wheel loses track in soft sand? Its a bit like riding on ice, with the difference that the deeper the front wheel get pressed into the sand the more steering restistance is build up. I guess your front wheel gets pushed sideways from the pushing back wheel if the front wheel is not adjusted exactly straight ahead.

[wantan]

Or maybe better to compare it with fresh snow. If the sand has different layers (e.g. dry on the upper side, wet below, losen upper, packed lower...) the upper layer can start sliding with the front wheel. And of course if the front wheel gets pushed from the back it starts moving left or right.

Just my theory, i guess totally bullshit as always

[wantan]

According to this website report speed is the key for stable riding in deep sand. You just have to go 100kmh and everything is OK. Maybe a bit less works too

I know it from mountain-biking that its better to pass sand at higher speed. Maybe it has something to do with "Inertial mass" of the sand. Like waterskiing is only possible at a certain speed. Interesting topic. I will investigate it further

[TramsRepus]

According to this website report speed is the key for stable riding in deep sand. You just have to go 100kmh and everything is OK. Maybe a bit less works too

I know it from mountain-biking that its better to pass sand at higher speed. Maybe it has something to do with "Inertial mass" of the sand. Like waterskiing is only possible at a certain speed. Interesting topic. I will investigate it further

Yea, i have been driving in 70km/h and suddenly "someone" kicked my front wheel off the track..It is a scary event i can tell you. I have been riding on ice before and this is not the same feeling. It is like you are driving in a deep track not much wider then your front wheel and you want to steer away from it but the front wheel jumps back in to the track and you lose the balance.

Leaning back did helped little, same as standing up, or i would say standing up make it easier to regain the balance....... I will lower the air pressure next time as Richard suggests and see if it helps.

Edited November 1, 2012 by TramsRepus

[TramsRepus]

According to this website report speed is the key for stable riding in deep sand. You just have to go 100kmh and everything is OK. Maybe a bit less works too

I know it from mountain-biking that its better to pass sand at higher speed. Maybe it has something to do with "Inertial mass" of the sand. Like waterskiing is only possible at a certain speed. Interesting topic. I will investigate it further

Oh, Nice link by the way. I forgot to thank you for the link,

Thanks, /T

Edited November 1, 2012 by TramsRepus

[BSJ]

If you drop your tire pressure that means at the end of beach riding you will need to pump them up again. Not that you got much room to store things....but a small electric compressor would be a handy asset.

[BSJ]

Just remembered the Tomcat. Small size....so I would have called it the Tom kitten!

[wantan]

According to this website report speed is the key for stable riding in deep sand. You just have to go 100kmh and everything is OK. Maybe a bit less works too

I know it from mountain-biking that its better to pass sand at higher speed. Maybe it has something to do with "Inertial mass" of the sand. Like waterskiing is only possible at a certain speed. Interesting topic. I will investigate it further

Yea, i have been driving in 70km/h and suddenly "someone" kicked my front wheel off the track..It is a scary event i can tell you. I have been riding on ice before and this is not the same feeling. It is like you are driving in a deep track not much wider then your front wheel and you want to steer away from it but the front wheel jumps back in to the track and you lose the balance.

Leaning back did helped little, same as standing up, or i would say standing up make it easier to regain the balance....... I will lower the air pressure next time as Richard suggests and see if it helps.

I guess 70kmh should really be enough. Maybe first think about adjusting riding technique before going faster

Just a few comments found at advrider.com about "Ridind in deep sand". Maybe just google it. Lots of interesting info:

"The more loose the sand and the more heavy the bike, the more speed you have to maintain to prevent the front wheel from dugging in.

You are lost when you let the front wheel do that."

"When I took Jimmy's class I found that guiding the bike with my legs was a lot like skiing powder, if you have had that experience."

"I am a dirt rider converted to riding mostly street bikes now. The secret to sand (as with most things off road) is MORE POWER. Stay on the throttle and work the bike under you. It will always feel soft but as long as you stay on the gas you can work through it. It is when you slow down or stop that you are in trouble.

I took a 150cc 4 stroke into the sand dunes in Pismo and found that with a bike that small, getting up on the tank helps get going. But the more horsepower the better to get on top of the sand."

"You have got to have traction in deep sand. If you are trying any deep sand with dual sport tires, it is going to be difficult and probably painful. Put on some knobs. Then you need some good power. Like Rad says, "let the front end wander"."

"I ride sand all the time. We get some pretty deep sand (sugar sand), esp. in the summer/fall. Throttle control, neutral riding position, allow the bike to move under you, inside peg weighting (like standing on one peg with your weight) for turns, keeping your forward momentum, I ride sand like riding a jet ski, using throttle and body position to direct the bike, I encourage the bike to go where I want it to, you can't force it in the sand. Smooth is fast. You don't need knobbies to ride sand but it doesn't hurt, you will get much less wandering of your tires with knobbies. Oh, I always stand in the sand, and most other times, but it is essential in the sand for the bike to find it's path and for you to react and compensate to it. And practice, practice, practice.....your comfort level will increase."

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I should be concentrating on:

- being easy on the bars (not fighting them)

- up on the pegs

- reasonable amount of throttle

- steering with knee's and weight on the pegs

- keeping weight balanced

- not tensing up, staying relaxed"

Edited November 1, 2012 by wantan

[TramsRepus]

So i need MORE POWER then I knew this would come sooner then later How to get more power on a CRF250l?? Read somewhere about a team who could get 30+HP out of it for around 25-30k....

"If you are trying any deep sand with dual sport tires, it is going to be difficult and probably painful."

There we have it, dual sport tires. But the rear wheel makes a perfect job and and i will always know what it is up to and offers no surprises at all, contrary to the front wheel. As this bike is bought as an off-road bike and not for pavement, i will change the front tire to a more off-road one. What to buy and from where in Pattaya area?

[Richard-BKK]

The IRC tires on the Honda CRF250L don't have a reputation of being good tires. They are 70% road and 30% off-road orientated. If you like to ride on the beach, I can only recommend one tire which is the Michelin Desert which is one of the best tires to ride in sand.

[mania]

It is all down to technique/practice.

Do not lessen the pressure in your tires.

Also unless your main focus will be riding in deep soft sand

no point in changing tires. In which case you would want something more

aggressive. Mainly for traction on the rear end.

Riding in sand or even deep silt, mud etc. is down to keeping speed up

& front end light.

As others have said weight rearward as this will help with lightening the front.

Relax & let the bike dance.

All you experienced was the front plowing in a bit.

Practice is all you need. No changes to the bike for your occasional

soft terrain riding.

[taninthai]

As mania says practice and technique is all you need ,I wouldn't change tyres yet,all the comments from owners of these bikes say the tyres are pretty capable for off road riding

[TramsRepus]

Of course do i need more practice and work on my technique for sure. But the bike behaves surprisingly well in deep water and in deep mud with no surprises at all. But in deep sand it is terrible.

Richard - No beach riding, i'm trying to avoid riding on sand if i can...

[mania]

Of course do i need more practice and work on my technique for sure. But the bike behaves surprisingly well in deep water and in deep mud with no surprises at all. But in deep sand it is terrible.

Richard - No beach riding, i'm trying to avoid riding on sand if i can...

Of the three you mention

sand,water,mud

Yes deep sand will be the most noticeable drag

Don't worry it will come & is not a mechanical problem 99.99% sure

[Richard-BKK]

I have on a much cheaper bike (GPX ZF250) no problems in loose sand at low speed, I often toy in loose sand as it's excellent to learn some skills – loose sand is prefect for not getting hurt or damage your bike...

From professional riders who now and then provide tips and tricks, the key is to lower the tire pressure to create a bigger contact patch with the surface. According to some dirtbike experts... high pressure tires brake the surface texture before they can use the texture for stability and traction....

Edited November 3, 2012 by Richard-BKK

[mania]

From professional riders who now and then provide tips and tricks, the key is to lower the tire pressure to create a bigger contact patch with the surface.

I think the OP needs to clarify the sand he is riding in.

In his posts he has said soft sand & he has said deep sand

If this is the case lowering the pressure will do nothing to help.

But, if his description of sand is less than say an inch of sand on a hard surface then yes

less pressure will help. Otherwise no

[griffer]

you also need to be in the right gear so you are in the power band for the motor...taking too high a gear will bog the motor down...you need to keep your weight back so that the front tyre is skipping over the top of the sand as much as possible...."keep the wire tight" as they say ( talking about throttle cable)..

[Tanaka]

Some good advice here. Have you checked the obvious technicalities? Wheel bearings, no sideways play? If spoked rim, all spokes taut? If you bought the bike second hand, check the fork springs that they are of equal length and strength. Correct fork oil in both legs? Front brake not being slightly applied unvoluntarily at times either by yourself or, if hydraulic, by not enough leeway on the grip. Bearings in the steering head taut and running without hitch?

[430xc]

I think it is reasonable to remember that we are not talking about a 100 kg 250cc 2 stroke motocross bike that does well in deep sand. You have a much heavier, less powerful and perhaps less agile motorcycle that you are trying to ride in difficult sand.

Agreed, technique and experience can overcome lots of equipment shortcomings.

[Richard-BKK]

Yes, it's true the Honda CRF250L is a heavy bike, weighing 145 kilogram, my Chinese 250cc enduro bike is clear 20 kilograms lighter... The 650cc BMW G650 X-Moto weighs only 1 kilo heavier than the Honda CRF250L...

I'm not the lightest person, nor the smallest, but on my 250cc Chinese build GPX ZF250 off-road motorcycle I have no problems going up sand dunes, or climbing mountains.

The Honda CRF250L is just to weak to do real off-road riding, when you loose momentum while climbing a mountain trial you cannot continue to climb starting from standstill. Maybe it's just the IRC tires, maybe it's just that bike owned by one of my riding buddies...

Edited November 7, 2012 by Richard-BKK

[taninthai]

^

wow sand dunes and mountains in bangkOk,I must be visiting the wrong parts of Bangkok.

But as other poster says the crfl is not like a proper mx bike where you can just whack the gas on and the front will pop up hence keeping it nice and light,in IMHO the crfl is never going to be brilliant to ride in deep sand,although changing the gearing may well help 13 tooth sprocket on the front would probably help.

[Richard-BKK]

^

wow sand dunes and mountains in bangkOk,I must be visiting the wrong parts of Bangkok.

But as other poster says the crfl is not like a proper mx bike where you can just whack the gas on and the front will pop up hence keeping it nice and light,in IMHO the crfl is never going to be brilliant to ride in deep sand,although changing the gearing may well help 13 tooth sprocket on the front would probably help.

Yes my home is in Bangkok, but I not ride the GPX ZF250 that much in Bangkok, for me a 250cc motorcycle is only fun for off-road, and with my pickup truck I can take the bike anywhere in Thailand. For riding in Bangkok I have a motorcycle with a good amount more cubic centimeters....

[loserlazer]

what a strange thread man.

I think all front wheel in this world change direction in sand.

But, you do not go down that easily. it is all about technique, nothing else. There is nothing wrong with your bike.

So, what is the problem here i do not understand?

Just practice.

[Richard-BKK]

what a strange thread man.

I think all front wheel in this world change direction in sand.

But, you do not go down that easily. it is all about technique, nothing else. There is nothing wrong with your bike.

So, what is the problem here i do not understand?

Just practice.

I agree that “When driving in soft sand, the front wheel does not keep its track” is not really a scientific term in which we can compare/measure every experience we have on a dirtbike. For instance, somebody who often rides in deep dry soft sand at any speeds will maybe say that a few centimeters track tolerance is little, while a person who has lots of road riding experience and rides a dirtbike for the first few weeks will be shocked when he feels that the front wheel moves from left to right and visa-versa less than a centimeter...

[loserlazer]

Well we are not scientists either here.

We just talk about our experiences so if the OP ever wanted a scientific explanation, i am sure he is at the wrong place

A couple of centimeters in sand does not require a scientific something i am sure.

[wantan]

Well we are not scientists either here.

We just talk about our experiences so if the OP ever wanted a scientific explanation, i am sure he is at the wrong place

A couple of centimeters in sand does not require a scientific something i am sure.

I guess sand can have many different variations, like snow. Very fine sand, medium sand grain and very coarse sand grain. Different material consistency. Wet sand, dry sand. Different layers of sand (wet/dry/consistency/...). Layers of sand on a hard surface like stone. And all possible combinations.

Has nothing to do with "scientific explanation". But i guess its interesting for people who want to do serious offroad riding in sand. Or if you want to do Paris-Dakar