Looking To Rent Land For Sugarcane

[nev]

Soidog...are you being sarcastic??

It is a workable situation, and tough to find a way around it. The selling of your own sugar is not an easy task. Selling to the brokers gives away a lot of money that should be in the farmers pocket. We are just learning the sugarcane end of it. We have had other people do our other two fields the last two years and this year bought more land, a tractor and moved here to do it ourself. We hope to break into to sugarbrokering in the next 2 years or so after we establish ourselves in the area. We are in wifeys home area so she know's a lot of people in the area already in the business.

Anyways, for now, the sugarbrokers are getting a good share of our crop. We start cutting on the 22nd they say...hahahahaha.... wait and see.

Factory say they open 20th up here. we have started to cut now to put down new seed already done 70 rai the other rai's to dry right now so wait for some rain, tommorow we start to cut cane to sell, we get ours in early as we have a big quota and good contacts at the factory, we do this so we can rent our trucks out to other farmers and make extra money taking ther cane to the factory.

[Canada]

Soidog...are you being sarcastic??

It is a workable situation, and tough to find a way around it. The selling of your own sugar is not an easy task. Selling to the brokers gives away a lot of money that should be in the farmers pocket. We are just learning the sugarcane end of it. We have had other people do our other two fields the last two years and this year bought more land, a tractor and moved here to do it ourself. We hope to break into to sugarbrokering in the next 2 years or so after we establish ourselves in the area. We are in wifeys home area so she know's a lot of people in the area already in the business.

Anyways, for now, the sugarbrokers are getting a good share of our crop. We start cutting on the 22nd they say...hahahahaha.... wait and see.

Factory say they open 20th up here. we have started to cut now to put down new seed already done 70 rai the other rai's to dry right now so wait for some rain, tommorow we start to cut cane to sell, we get ours in early as we have a big quota and good contacts at the factory, we do this so we can rent our trucks out to other farmers and make extra money taking ther cane to the factory.

Would love to talk with you more about this. Question though.... You say big quota. How big? How many trucks do you have and what area are you in?

Thanks.

Thanks.

[kaspercat]

This year the season starts very early. With the lack of cool weather the CCS will surely be lower.

If you want to experiment with crop yield, ask to talk to the R&D at your local miller. I know we have several different hybrids and they may be able to suggest a different one depending on your soil or water conditions.

Remember, the prices you get now are always adjusted once all the sugar are sold by the millers. This is by law. If the sugar prices goes down, the millers take the loss. If the prices are good, the additional revenues are shared back to the farmers at the end of the year.

[jamescollister]

hi all,i was wondering if anyone has had expierience with leasing land long term, say a 30yr lease, does this happen at all, and when you see ie 50rai for 10,000bt/year , is it possible to lease less than the 50 rai or is that not done

Thanks in advance

It does happen, but usually in conjunction with a land purchase. i.e.. your thai gf/wife puts the property in her name and you secure it by registering a long term lease or what they call " seet gep gin" which gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. You can register this right for a term of 30 years, or for the rest of your life here, which is what I have done on our land. It'll cost you about 100 baht to have this recorded on the back of the title deed at the land registry office or thousands or baht if you get a lawyer to do it for you. Really. I had a lawyer do my first one and did the rest of them myself.

Not legal, a farang can not give money to a Thai to buy land in the first place. All these alleged schemes to by pass Thai law will not hold up in court no matter what some shyster lawyer tells you as he takes your money. Jim

[Scoop1]

hi all,i was wondering if anyone has had expierience with leasing land long term, say a 30yr lease, does this happen at all, and when you see ie 50rai for 10,000bt/year , is it possible to lease less than the 50 rai or is that not done

Thanks in advance

It does happen, but usually in conjunction with a land purchase. i.e.. your thai gf/wife puts the property in her name and you secure it by registering a long term lease or what they call " seet gep gin" which gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. You can register this right for a term of 30 years, or for the rest of your life here, which is what I have done on our land. It'll cost you about 100 baht to have this recorded on the back of the title deed at the land registry office or thousands or baht if you get a lawyer to do it for you. Really. I had a lawyer do my first one and did the rest of them myself.

Not legal, a farang can not give money to a Thai to buy land in the first place. All these alleged schemes to by pass Thai law will not hold up in court no matter what some shyster lawyer tells you as he takes your money. Jim

So Jim, do have land and if so how did you aquire it, if a foreinger can't own land

cheers

scoop1

[Canada]

hi all,i was wondering if anyone has had expierience with leasing land long term, say a 30yr lease, does this happen at all, and when you see ie 50rai for 10,000bt/year , is it possible to lease less than the 50 rai or is that not done

Thanks in advance

It does happen, but usually in conjunction with a land purchase. i.e.. your thai gf/wife puts the property in her name and you secure it by registering a long term lease or what they call " seet gep gin" which gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. You can register this right for a term of 30 years, or for the rest of your life here, which is what I have done on our land. It'll cost you about 100 baht to have this recorded on the back of the title deed at the land registry office or thousands or baht if you get a lawyer to do it for you. Really. I had a lawyer do my first one and did the rest of them myself.

Not legal, a farang can not give money to a Thai to buy land in the first place. All these alleged schemes to by pass Thai law will not hold up in court no matter what some shyster lawyer tells you as he takes your money. Jim

So Jim, do have land and if so how did you aquire it, if a foreinger can't own land

cheers

scoop1

Actually Jim. 100% Legal. It is not bypassing Thai law, it is adhering to it. You must, at the time of purchase sign a document that says that the money that was used to purchase the property is the Thai's, not the Farang's. I guess that is what you are refering to. As well, any agreement you make with your wife can be voided in court after being divorced one year. A lawyer told me this..... So, another weak point in this method of trying to protect assets. Best bet is to have a good wife, and be a good husband....or own nothing and do nothing and wait to die.

[jamescollister]

hi all,i was wondering if anyone has had expierience with leasing land long term, say a 30yr lease, does this happen at all, and when you see ie 50rai for 10,000bt/year , is it possible to lease less than the 50 rai or is that not done

Thanks in advance

It does happen, but usually in conjunction with a land purchase. i.e.. your thai gf/wife puts the property in her name and you secure it by registering a long term lease or what they call " seet gep gin" which gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. You can register this right for a term of 30 years, or for the rest of your life here, which is what I have done on our land. It'll cost you about 100 baht to have this recorded on the back of the title deed at the land registry office or thousands or baht if you get a lawyer to do it for you. Really. I had a lawyer do my first one and did the rest of them myself.

Not legal, a farang can not give money to a Thai to buy land in the first place. All these alleged schemes to by pass Thai law will not hold up in court no matter what some shyster lawyer tells you as he takes your money. Jim

So Jim, do have land and if so how did you aquire it, if a foreinger can't own land

cheers

scoop1

This land owning thing comes up all the time, not worth the time going over it again. look for the thread on farmer Joe and his turkey farms. All the lawyers and leases did him no good, court took it all.

Scoop I am an invisible man in Thailand, wife owns it all and no need to sign anything as wife lived and kids are born in Australia. Just like in Australia if things went wrong she would get everything anyways. Jim

[IsaanAussie]

I agree with Jim. I have the same arrangement with my wife, its all in her name. What there is of it, that is. I am happy with that arrangement.

[kwonitoy]

I'll agree with Jim and IA,

Land and house in the wife's name. A condo that I can legally own, in my name. If things went south she gets the land and house up north, I get the condo. a 50-50 split

It's all going to be transfered to my son shortly, maybe when's he's older (three or so) he might just boot mom and dad out the door.

I barely trust a lawyer in my home country and I sure wouldn't trust one in Thailand. Especially when it comes to land deals. It's one thing the Thai are very xenophonic about, and won't be changing anytime soon.

Lots of folks that thought they had a solid lock on things found out otherwise. Jim mentioned Farmer Joe, I'll bring up Slipperex's, Search General for a topic called Four ways to loose your property in Thailand

Ken

[somo]

I guess that this has veered off topic a bit but is interesting.

For my two pence I think being 50% in love is a non starter so always go all in.

If it fuc_ks up then sure lots of tears but my latest effort has gone 16 years now and shows no signs of flagging so I am getting better at it

I am more than happy to lose everything I have in Issan if god forbid my wife passed away or kicked me out.

To the OP I would suggest scaling back the amount of land you want to rent. As you are finding it is not that easy to find so

how about just renting 1 or 2 rai and spending your mney on irrigating that in order to test the theories. If they turn out well then go for it in a bigger way. With any new project I always favour the slow approach. If it works then expand and go in big time.

Same with women really

[Scoop1]

I'll agree with Jim and IA,

Land and house in the wife's name. A condo that I can legally own, in my name. If things went south she gets the land and house up north, I get the condo. a 50-50 split

It's all going to be transfered to my son shortly, maybe when's he's older (three or so) he might just boot mom and dad out the door.

I barely trust a lawyer in my home country and I sure wouldn't trust one in Thailand. Especially when it comes to land deals. It's one thing the Thai are very xenophonic about, and won't be changing anytime soon.

Lots of folks that thought they had a solid lock on things found out otherwise. Jim mentioned Farmer Joe, I'll bring up Slipperex's, Search General for a topic called Four ways to loose your property in Thailand

Ken

Thanks for that imformation Ken, i have read that post, and in my honest opininion he made a lot of mistakes trying to beat the system, he also trusted far to many people, and never had a leg to stand on in the end or so it seems, i think if i leased land and it was done properly through a legal firm , i cant see any problem, because the lease would be in my name only

Cheers

Scoop

[Scoop1]

Thanks Jim, i have not read the post you mentioned, i have read the other post, but i am not married to a Thai and i dont have a thai gf nor do i have anyone that i would trust with my hard earned, so i am am looking to lease because i have no other option available, but i will read the Joe's post and they are all questions that i will ask the legal firm

cheers

Scoop

[cornishcarlos]

And another thread goes off topic

OP, we have 30+ rai in Chaiyaphum that we could rent to you.

It will be available in January. Includes a very large pond on site, not sure exact size as I've only seen pics..

I was out of country when my wife bought the plot but it is very fertile and water is not an issue.

Thanks

[jamescollister]

Thanks Jim, i have not read the post you mentioned, i have read the other post, but i am not married to a Thai and i dont have a thai gf nor do i have anyone that i would trust with my hard earned, so i am am looking to lease because i have no other option available, but i will read the Joe's post and they are all questions that i will ask the legal firm

cheers

Scoop

Good luck finding a honest lawyer here, we used an accountant, they seem to be a bit more trustworthy.

Also this leasing is just another word for renting and if it is all above board why to you not see bars, shops , resorts and restaurants with 30 year leases.

The land owner will always have the right to terminate any lease or rental agreement, or for that matter put up the rent.

Been here 10 years, have over 100 rai and a small factory [ limited company ] seen these schemes come up and as of yet never heard of one holding up in court.

If you can't find a national you can really trust, better to just rent a house by the month, or you can put the land in the name of one of my kids. That way the land can not be touch without a court order until, I think they reach 21. Jim

[Canada]

I still think that you need a good wife and need to be a good husband. That's the best chance of it all working out well.

As time goes on, I am less and less worried about the state of my wife's moral character. She consistently proves herself to be a good and loyal woman at every opportunity. She has never given any reason to doubt her.... it's just my own paranoia that is the problem...or has been.

As i previously stated, I took the steps that I considered necessary at the time to protect the land purchases. Were they effective?? Hope I never find out. But I think that the best case scenario is that I would get half. In our latest land purchase which has yet to be finalized, I'll likely not bother with the "ineffective protection measures". It sends the message that I don't trust you, even though you have always proven yourself to be trustworthy.

[jamescollister]

Will just touch on the subject of these alleged 30 year leases and maybe save someone from making a bad decision,

.

1/ These are agreements lodged with the land office, not some iron clad contract.

2/ If you bought land with your wife and signed to say it has nothing to do with you. It is then her land, if she then makes an agreement to lease the land to you for 30 years. You have to pay the rental up front, which is taxable, she has earned an income, renting the land. Not sure on the tax situation with that, but the lands department has told me that if we sell certain land they will deem a price and we have to pay tax at the deemed value.

3/ You can not do anything on that land without the owners permission, or the agreement is then null an void.

4/ If you bought the land through your wife and divorce comes along, it's common property. Any settlement will be heard in the family court, not the civil courts. You take your chances there, if no kids and you are lucky 50/50 split.

5/ If the land owner goes bankrupt, you become a creditor and have to fight it out in the courts with the other creditors.

Lawyers will tell you what you want to hear, if 30 year leases were so strong the Chinese would have leases on all the rubber, cassava, palm oil and rice paddies in Thailand. Different story if you are going through the BOI for a 50 year lease for industry.

Be careful and don't believe anything. Jim

[Canada]

Will just touch on the subject of these alleged 30 year leases and maybe save someone from making a bad decision,

.

1/ These are agreements lodged with the land office, not some iron clad contract.

2/ If you bought land with your wife and signed to say it has nothing to do with you. It is then her land, if she then makes an agreement to lease the land to you for 30 years. You have to pay the rental up front, which is taxable, she has earned an income, renting the land. Not sure on the tax situation with that, but the lands department has told me that if we sell certain land they will deem a price and we have to pay tax at the deemed value.

3/ You can not do anything on that land without the owners permission, or the agreement is then null an void.

4/ If you bought the land through your wife and divorce comes along, it's common property. Any settlement will be heard in the family court, not the civil courts. You take your chances there, if no kids and you are lucky 50/50 split.

5/ If the land owner goes bankrupt, you become a creditor and have to fight it out in the courts with the other creditors.

Lawyers will tell you what you want to hear, if 30 year leases were so strong the Chinese would have leases on all the rubber, cassava, palm oil and rice paddies in Thailand. Different story if you are going through the BOI for a 50 year lease for industry.

Be careful and don't believe anything. Jim

Regarding #3.

If you register what is called in Thai, a "seet gep gin" rather than a lease, it gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. Build, cultivate etc. and reap the rewards of doing so. The other thing is that you can have this right for the remainder of life, not just 30 years. I expect to outlive a 30 year lease

I would go with Jim's last statement in this quoted post. Daron

[jamescollister]

Will just touch on the subject of these alleged 30 year leases and maybe save someone from making a bad decision,

.

1/ These are agreements lodged with the land office, not some iron clad contract.

2/ If you bought land with your wife and signed to say it has nothing to do with you. It is then her land, if she then makes an agreement to lease the land to you for 30 years. You have to pay the rental up front, which is taxable, she has earned an income, renting the land. Not sure on the tax situation with that, but the lands department has told me that if we sell certain land they will deem a price and we have to pay tax at the deemed value.

3/ You can not do anything on that land without the owners permission, or the agreement is then null an void.

4/ If you bought the land through your wife and divorce comes along, it's common property. Any settlement will be heard in the family court, not the civil courts. You take your chances there, if no kids and you are lucky 50/50 split.

5/ If the land owner goes bankrupt, you become a creditor and have to fight it out in the courts with the other creditors.

Lawyers will tell you what you want to hear, if 30 year leases were so strong the Chinese would have leases on all the rubber, cassava, palm oil and rice paddies in Thailand. Different story if you are going through the BOI for a 50 year lease for industry.

Be careful and don't believe anything. Jim

Regarding #3.

If you register what is called in Thai, a "seet gep gin" rather than a lease, it gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. Build, cultivate etc. and reap the rewards of doing so. The other thing is that you can have this right for the remainder of life, not just 30 years. I expect to outlive a 30 year lease

I would go with Jim's last statement in this quoted post. Daron

Otherwise know as a usufruct, the right to collect fruit from an orchard. Don't know how well they would stand up in a court. Bit of a difference house owning and fruit collecting. Some one may have had dealings with these types of agreements. Though one advantage with usufruct is it can be given as a gift unlike a lease where rent must be paid. Jim

[jamescollister]

Canada, just to make it a bit clearer, here a quote from Thai lawyer association.

A registered right of usufruct is not a contract that can be easily terminated by your wife. Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS of civil and commercial code.This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate it your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. For example when you would divorce your wife the usufruct could be terminated by a court as part of the division of assets.

After your marriage in Thailand, under Thai matrimonial law, property between husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of property between husband and wife (sections 1465 to 1493 Civil and Commercial Code), therefore any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court.

You are protected and your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, but because you as a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand and buying real estate when married in Thailand often means signing away your rights to the land it is important to obtain legal advice BEFORE you buy land on the name of your Thai spouse. I have included 2 reference links as a start.

[jopham]

Hi klubex99

Why don`t you only rent 6 rai and grow 6 different strains of sugarcane. Than next year when you get the results of which it growing the best I would grow some more of the 2 best performing strains of sugarcane on another piece of land. When you are a bit more confident about their performence go and rent your 50 rais and you wil need 50 rai as a minimum to have a contract with the sugarmill.

A little bit of background from me.

My wife and her family started growing sugarcane 7 years ago (about 20 rai), Now over 500 rai, half owned half leased.

They grow it in 3 year cycles so I would only lease for a minimum of 6 years ( 2 cycles) not 5 years.

Finding people to cut and cart your sugarcane wil be your biggest problem. To overcome this problem we bought our own trucks and cutting crew but is not viable on 50 rai. you will need atleast 300 rai to do this. I would lease/rent/buy land as close to the nearest sugarmill as possible. Contract cutters don`t like to spend money on diesel to cart it to the sugarmill and will not do only 6 rai or 50 rai if it is 40-50 kms from the sugarmill or wait untill they run out of work at the end of the season.

You were talking about the sugarlevel of the cut sugarcane and the fresher it is the higher the sugar contance. Yes that is very true but it is of near no importance If they have to cut it by hand. They will burn your sugarcane before they start cutting (loose more than 10 procent of it sugarlevel) or if you want it cut fresh you will have to pay extra. The first cut sugarcane will not be loaded untill maybe 4-5 hours later when you have a full truck if you are lucky. Start counting the hours every hour you loose 1% of it sugar contance or more. Plus transport, a fully load truck will only travel at 30 kms an hour becauce they overload it by 30-40%

If the sugar was burned the truck will sit in a cue to be unload and it is not uncommon to have 12 hour wait time (even if you deliver 7000 tonnes or more like my family does)

If you cut fresh there is hardly any waitting time (max 1 hour)

To cut 1 rai it will take a 20 person crew 1,5 hours. max in a day is 9 rai but most of time its about 6,5 to 7 ray a day if the sugar is good.

If you want to cut by machine you have to plant your sugarcane at a certain distance from each other and your yield will be a lot smaller.

One bit of advise LISTEN TO YOUR MIL

I have all ready invested more than 25 million baht (sorry my family have) and still have to see a half decent return. 4% would be nice but it is running a lot lower.

Cheers,

Jopham

Edited November 20, 2012 by jopham

[Canada]

Canada, just to make it a bit clearer, here a quote from Thai lawyer association.

A registered right of usufruct is not a contract that can be easily terminated by your wife. Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS of civil and commercial code.This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate it your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. For example when you would divorce your wife the usufruct could be terminated by a court as part of the division of assets.

After your marriage in Thailand, under Thai matrimonial law, property between husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of property between husband and wife (sections 1465 to 1493 Civil and Commercial Code), therefore any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court.

You are protected and your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, but because you as a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand and buying real estate when married in Thailand often means signing away your rights to the land it is important to obtain legal advice BEFORE you buy land on the name of your Thai spouse. I have included 2 reference links as a start.

Yes, ok Jim. Thank you. I am unsure of what you are trying to tell me. What I have on my land title deeds (or my wife's I should say) is not a usufruct. My lawyer recommended what I previously stated that I did: register a "seet gep gin" (it's actual name on the agreement is longer than that). I did obtain legal advice from two different lawyers before buying land. They both told me that if I wanted my "investment" to be 100 percent secure that I should NOT purchase land here in Thailand.

5 minutes later....Actually what I have is a Usufruct agreement. It's just not called that in Thai. It is called as I referred to it "seet (thi) gep gin" I speak Thai well so I do most of my dealings with Thais in Thai. I didn't know that I had an Usufruct agreement.

for reference and of particular interest, item #6 under myths and facts:

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Usufruct%20agreements%20in%20Thailand.pdf

I can't find the reference links that you included.

Daron

[Canada]

Hi klubex99

Why don`t you only rent 6 rai and grow 6 different strains of sugarcane. Than next year when you get the results of which it growing the best I would grow some more of the 2 best performing strains of sugarcane on another piece of land. When you are a bit more confident about their performence go and rent your 50 rais and you wil need 50 rai as a minimum to have a contract with the sugarmill.

A little bit of background from me.

My wife and her family started growing sugarcane 7 years ago (about 20 rai), Now over 500 rai, half owned half leased.

They grow it in 3 year cycles so I would only lease for a minimum of 6 years ( 2 cycles) not 5 years.

Finding people to cut and cart your sugarcane wil be your biggest problem. To overcome this problem we bought our own trucks and cutting crew but is not viable on 50 rai. you will need atleast 300 rai to do this. I would lease/rent/buy land as close to the nearest sugarmill as possible. Contract cutters don`t like to spend money on diesel to cart it to the sugarmill and will not do only 6 rai or 50 rai if it is 40-50 kms from the sugarmill or wait untill they run out of work at the end of the season.

You were talking about the sugarlevel of the cut sugarcane and the fresher it is the higher the sugar contance. Yes that is very true but it is of near no importance If they have to cut it by hand. They will burn your sugarcane before they start cutting (loose more than 10 procent of it sugarlevel) or if you want it cut fresh you will have to pay extra. The first cut sugarcane will not be loaded untill maybe 4-5 hours later when you have a full truck if you are lucky. Start counting the hours every hour you loose 1% of it sugar contance or more. Plus transport, a fully load truck will only travel at 30 kms an hour becauce they overload it by 30-40%

If the sugar was burned the truck will sit in a cue to be unload and it is not uncommon to have 12 hour wait time (even if you deliver 7000 tonnes or more like my family does)

If you cut fresh there is hardly any waitting time (max 1 hour)

To cut 1 rai it will take a 20 person crew 1,5 hours. max in a day is 9 rai but most of time its about 6,5 to 7 ray a day if the sugar is good.

If you want to cut by machine you have to plant your sugarcane at a certain distance from each other and your yield will be a lot smaller.

One bit of advise LISTEN TO YOUR MIL

I have all ready invested more than 25 million baht (sorry my family have) and still have to see a half decent return. 4% would be nice but it is running a lot lower.

Cheers,

Jopham

4%.....would be nice. should've left my money where it was if that's the best I can hope for

[Scoop1]

Canada, just to make it a bit clearer, here a quote from Thai lawyer association.

A registered right of usufruct is not a contract that can be easily terminated by your wife. Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS of civil and commercial code.This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate it your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. For example when you would divorce your wife the usufruct could be terminated by a court as part of the division of assets.

After your marriage in Thailand, under Thai matrimonial law, property between husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of property between husband and wife (sections 1465 to 1493 Civil and Commercial Code), therefore any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court.

You are protected and your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, but because you as a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand and buying real estate when married in Thailand often means signing away your rights to the land it is important to obtain legal advice BEFORE you buy land on the name of your Thai spouse. I have included 2 reference links as a start.

Yes, ok Jim. Thank you. I am unsure of what you are trying to tell me. What I have on my land title deeds (or my wife's I should say) is not a usufruct. My lawyer recommended what I previously stated that I did: register a "seet gep gin" (it's actual name on the agreement is longer than that). I did obtain legal advice from two different lawyers before buying land. They both told me that if I wanted my "investment" to be 100 percent secure that I should NOT purchase land here in Thailand.

5 minutes later....Actually what I have is a Usufruct agreement. It's just not called that in Thai. It is called as I referred to it "seet (thi) gep gin" I speak Thai well so I do most of my dealings with Thais in Thai. I didn't know that I had an Usufruct agreement.

for reference and of particular interest, item #6 under myths and facts:

http://www.isaanlawy...in Thailand.pdf

I can't find the reference links that you included.

Daron

Hello Jim and Daron, from what you guys are saying i think an Usurfruct is the safest way to rent property in Thailand, is this your opinion?

Cheers

scoop

[Canada]

Canada, just to make it a bit clearer, here a quote from Thai lawyer association.

A registered right of usufruct is not a contract that can be easily terminated by your wife. Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS of civil and commercial code.This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate it your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. For example when you would divorce your wife the usufruct could be terminated by a court as part of the division of assets.

After your marriage in Thailand, under Thai matrimonial law, property between husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of property between husband and wife (sections 1465 to 1493 Civil and Commercial Code), therefore any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court.

You are protected and your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, but because you as a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand and buying real estate when married in Thailand often means signing away your rights to the land it is important to obtain legal advice BEFORE you buy land on the name of your Thai spouse. I have included 2 reference links as a start.

Yes, ok Jim. Thank you. I am unsure of what you are trying to tell me. What I have on my land title deeds (or my wife's I should say) is not a usufruct. My lawyer recommended what I previously stated that I did: register a "seet gep gin" (it's actual name on the agreement is longer than that). I did obtain legal advice from two different lawyers before buying land. They both told me that if I wanted my "investment" to be 100 percent secure that I should NOT purchase land here in Thailand.

5 minutes later....Actually what I have is a Usufruct agreement. It's just not called that in Thai. It is called as I referred to it "seet (thi) gep gin" I speak Thai well so I do most of my dealings with Thais in Thai. I didn't know that I had an Usufruct agreement.

for reference and of particular interest, item #6 under myths and facts:

http://www.isaanlawy...in Thailand.pdf

I can't find the reference links that you included.

Daron

Hello Jim and Daron, from what you guys are saying i think an Usurfruct is the safest way to rent property in Thailand, is this your opinion?

Cheers

scoop

That is the conclusion that i came to. I often think that a company would have been better for owning land and it may well be...as long as Thai authorities don't catch on. Possible penalties for that are severe.

Daron

[Scoop1]

Canada, just to make it a bit clearer, here a quote from Thai lawyer association.

A registered right of usufruct is not a contract that can be easily terminated by your wife. Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS of civil and commercial code.This means that once the right of usufruct is registered it is more or less guaranteed by law and to terminate it your wife would need 1 your consent or 2 a court order to have it removed from the title deed. For example when you would divorce your wife the usufruct could be terminated by a court as part of the division of assets.

After your marriage in Thailand, under Thai matrimonial law, property between husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of property between husband and wife (sections 1465 to 1493 Civil and Commercial Code), therefore any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court.

You are protected and your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, but because you as a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand and buying real estate when married in Thailand often means signing away your rights to the land it is important to obtain legal advice BEFORE you buy land on the name of your Thai spouse. I have included 2 reference links as a start.

Yes, ok Jim. Thank you. I am unsure of what you are trying to tell me. What I have on my land title deeds (or my wife's I should say) is not a usufruct. My lawyer recommended what I previously stated that I did: register a "seet gep gin" (it's actual name on the agreement is longer than that). I did obtain legal advice from two different lawyers before buying land. They both told me that if I wanted my "investment" to be 100 percent secure that I should NOT purchase land here in Thailand.

5 minutes later....Actually what I have is a Usufruct agreement. It's just not called that in Thai. It is called as I referred to it "seet (thi) gep gin" I speak Thai well so I do most of my dealings with Thais in Thai. I didn't know that I had an Usufruct agreement.

for reference and of particular interest, item #6 under myths and facts:

http://www.isaanlawy...in Thailand.pdf

I can't find the reference links that you included.

Daron

Hello Jim and Daron, from what you guys are saying i think an Usurfruct is the safest way to rent property in Thailand, is this your opinion?

Cheers

scoop

That is the conclusion that i came to. I often think that a company would have been better for owning land and it may well be...as long as Thai authorities don't catch on. Possible penalties for that are severe.

Daron

i am not sure Daron, if Thai's have to own 51% of the company, i think that is dangerous, and i think that is one of the problems that happened to that other guy, slipperex!

scoop

Edited November 21, 2012 by Scoop1

[jamescollister]

There is no safe way to own land in Thailand end of story. Company, lease over 3 years. Usurfruct, nothing, none will hold up in court. The Thai constitution says only a Thai may own land in Thailand. Better to save your money and rent or trust your wife with it all, you will not get the right to keep your house, land etc if you separate or divorce.

Scoop on the company idea, law was changed in 2009, Thais now have to be able to prove they invested their money in the company. Don't think you will find many who want to put money into you having a house. Anyone found to be cheating the system is liable to jail time and fines, wouldn't want that sitting over my head for 30 years or so waiting for a bang on the door from the police.

As said trust your wife or don't invest, or put the land in a kids name and you are safe until they are 21 at least. Jim

.

[Scoop1]

There is no safe way to own land in Thailand end of story. Company, lease over 3 years. Usurfruct, nothing, none will hold up in court. The Thai constitution says only a Thai may own land in Thailand. Better to save your money and rent or trust your wife with it all, you will not get the right to keep your house, land etc if you separate or divorce.

Scoop on the company idea, law was changed in 2009, Thais now have to be able to prove they invested their money in the company. Don't think you will find many who want to put money into you having a house. Anyone found to be cheating the system is liable to jail time and fines, wouldn't want that sitting over my head for 30 years or so waiting for a bang on the door from the police.

As said trust your wife or don't invest, or put the land in a kids name and you are safe until they are 21 at least. Jim

.

Thanks Jim, i do understand that, but i dont have a Thai wife and i dont wont to own land, i just want to rent long term and if i want to build something on the land i want to be sure i am 100% protected for the term , whether it be 2, 5, or 30 years whatever, and the website in one of your earlier posts says that i can do that

Cheers

scoop

Edited November 21, 2012 by Scoop1

[Canada]

I think that the link that I posted by Isaan Lawyers is pretty clear on at least one type of agreement for lease, which would suit your needs. This type of information is quite easy to find actually, and anything that you read here is just someone's experience or interpretation of Thai law. You would do well to do your own due diligence, find your land and do your best on it. My experience with Thai landlords before I bought land was not good. Beware. I had several of them. They have some concepts in thinking that are quite different than our thinking and our laws. Get a specific and well written lease. You would do well to have a lawyer draw one up for you rather than have their (owners) contract.

I think your chances of getting a Thai to sign into an iron clad long term lease that gives you full rights are slim, but good luck.

Tell you what; I have about a rai just outside of Chiang Mai, that has enough room for a 8x12m greenhouse. I'd lease it to you for 2 years. It has a 2 bedroom Thai style house, very private, no close neighbors, and a couple or 6x2m good dog runs in case you have dogs. It is completely fenced. It is for sale on Thai visa right now, but to be quite quite honest, I am not keen on selling it yet. I don't know what I will want to do in 2 years. I may want to live in Chiang Mai again. Daron

[Canada]

I am curious about the OP. Has he found leasable land yet?

[Scoop1]

I think that the link that I posted by Isaan Lawyers is pretty clear on at least one type of agreement for lease, which would suit your needs. This type of information is quite easy to find actually, and anything that you read here is just someone's experience or interpretation of Thai law. You would do well to do your own due diligence, find your land and do your best on it. My experience with Thai landlords before I bought land was not good. Beware. I had several of them. They have some concepts in thinking that are quite different than our thinking and our laws. Get a specific and well written lease. You would do well to have a lawyer draw one up for you rather than have their (owners) contract.

I think your chances of getting a Thai to sign into an iron clad long term lease that gives you full rights are slim, but good luck.

Tell you what; I have about a rai just outside of Chiang Mai, that has enough room for a 8x12m greenhouse. I'd lease it to you for 2 years. It has a 2 bedroom Thai style house, very private, no close neighbors, and a couple or 6x2m good dog runs in case you have dogs. It is completely fenced. It is for sale on Thai visa right now, but to be quite quite honest, I am not keen on selling it yet. I don't know what I will want to do in 2 years. I may want to live in Chiang Mai again. Daron

Thank you for that Daron, i did read that article from Isaan Lawers, and i feel that it is legal to do an usurfuct, and it seems to say, i am very well protected, so i will certainly be using a law firm to get it done properly, at the moment i am just loking at options as to where i want to base myself. can you pm me with the advertisment you have posted, i did see 7 rai for sale or lease in Chiang Dao but i dont know what it was like , the photos were no good, it was in Lahu Village

cheers

Scoop