Thai Judgment

[payak]

From your description I see one bad man and one interesting man. The first one is judgmental and gossips. The other sounds like he would be fun at a party. I'll let you figure out which one you are.

im the one partying like crazy, happy in the knowledge those partying with me dont have there hand in my pocket.

and our parties are at our expense and not mine.

you and him would do well,the reason you agree because your doing the same thing yes

[payak]

i see im talking about a guy here who is really like many people here.

hence the reason people here are biting. haha.

never realised there were so many suckers.

[akspace]

From your description I see one bad man and one interesting man. The first one is judgmental and gossips. The other sounds like he would be fun at a party. I'll let you figure out which one you are.

im the one partying like crazy, happy in the knowledge those partying with me dont have there hand in my pocket.

and our parties are at our expense and not mine.

you and him would do well,the reason you agree because your doing the same thing yes

I've never been to a thai village, I'm un-married, I'm not a drunk and most of my female companions in Thailand are farang women.

However, anyone who would use deviant to describe another person deserves nothing but scorn. I don't know why I bothered though, given your other posts I should realize you are completely beyond help or education.

[SteeleJoe]

it is a semantic argument despite the teachings of the oracle wiki.

Thaliand may never have actually been colonized, but the country is rife with colonial influences.

They have also given up large amounts of territory to avoid the pressure of colonial powers, so, arguably, parts of Thailand have been colonized.

Almost precisely what I was going to say (and have said for about 20 years!)

Though I might add that some of those colonial influences were deliberately adopted and even enforced by Thai government(s).

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[SteeleJoe]

Well, not necessarily brown people, i remember as a young boy, being stuck in my deep feelings when i saw the picture of the young Vietnamese girl being burnt by napalm bombs, walking naked and crying desperately among indifferent , full geared American soldiers.

I read later she was adopted and given an education by some wonderful American family.

I still think Europeans and Americans have a lot to be forgiven.

Methinks your memory/imagination is playing tricks on you.

That would be Phan Thi Kim Phuc. She was bombed by the South Vietnamese Air Force and those were SVN troops in that picture. No doubt US troops were at times as bad or worse but not in the picture you saw. (And she was not walking but running -- along with much of her village).

She was never adopted by Americans. She was used by the government of Vietnam for years as a propaganda tool and as an adult she was a student in Cuba from whence she departed for a honeymoon in Moscow. She and her husband defected while laid over in Canada, and she was given asylum. She is now Canadian.

Europeans and Americans indeed have a lot for which to be forgiven. But what of the rest of the world? How many countries can you name that have no crimes against others or their OWN people in their history? (If you want to speak of Vietnam, obviously the US has much to answer for. What about the Vietnamese, the Chinese, or the Koreans in that war?)

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[BigJohnnyBKK]

Europeans and Americans indeed have a lot for which to be forgiven. But what of the rest of the world? How many countries can you name that have no crimes against others or their OWN people in their history? (If you want to speak of Vietnam, obviously the US has much to answer for. What about the Vietnamese, the Chinese, or the Koreans in that war?)

I don't buy into collective guilt, only for my own past transgressions.

And even then guilt is only useful if used as an aide to changing my own behaviour to be in greater alignment with what I know to be true principles, otherwise just as useless an emotion as worry about the future.

No one of us is perfect, we're all doing the best we can given where we're at in our ongoing process of evolution. Key thing is that we're heading in the right direction, today is better than yesterday, and forgiveness is essential to be able to more on - most important, sometimes the hardest, is to forgive yourself.

[SteeleJoe]

Europeans and Americans indeed have a lot for which to be forgiven. But what of the rest of the world? How many countries can you name that have no crimes against others or their OWN people in their history? (If you want to speak of Vietnam, obviously the US has much to answer for. What about the Vietnamese, the Chinese, or the Koreans in that war?)

I don't buy into collective guilt, only for my own past transgressions.

And even then guilt is only useful if used as an aide to changing my own behaviour to be in greater alignment with what I know to be true principles, otherwise just as useless an emotion as worry about the future.

No one of us is perfect, we're all doing the best we can given where we're at in our ongoing process of evolution. Key thing is that we're heading in the right direction, today is better than yesterday, and forgiveness is essential to be able to more on - most important, sometimes the hardest, is to forgive yourself.

I don't feel any conscious guilt for any crimes of the US (or "the white man") nor do I think anyone should. I was merely trying (in a rather sloppy and off the cuff way) to highlight what I see as fallacy in the post I quoted.

Do I believe in collective guilt (for the actions of previous generations)? No. Collective responsibility (for things happening now)? Well, that's another topic (for another thread).

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[krisb]

You don't get on then ?

no he's me get on fine, but it does not change the shallowness i see, the hangers on.

he done me a favour, keeps them away from me.

So you get along with him and your backstabbing him on Thai Visa!

BTW is that you 2 in your avatar?

[mauGR1]

Well, not necessarily brown people, i remember as a young boy, being stuck in my deep feelings when i saw the picture of the young Vietnamese girl being burnt by napalm bombs, walking naked and crying desperately among indifferent , full geared American soldiers.

I read later she was adopted and given an education by some wonderful American family.

I still think Europeans and Americans have a lot to be forgiven.

Methinks your memory/imagination is playing tricks on you.

That would be Phan Thi Kim Phuc. She was bombed by the South Vietnamese Air Force and those were SVN troops in that picture. No doubt US troops were at times as bad or worse but not in the picture you saw. (And she was not walking but running -- along with much of her village).

She was never adopted by Americans. She was used by the government of Vietnam for years as a propaganda tool and as an adult she was a student in Cuba from whence she departed for a honeymoon in Moscow. She and her husband defected while laid over in Canada, and she was given asylum. She is now Canadian.

Europeans and Americans indeed have a lot for which to be forgiven. But what of the rest of the world? How many countries can you name that have no crimes against others or their OWN people in their history? (If you want to speak of Vietnam, obviously the US has much to answer for. What about the Vietnamese, the Chinese, or the Koreans in that war?)

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Thanks for clarifying, yes indeed that pic was used as a propaganda tool by the left wing Parties in Europe too, but i am going to look at the picture again, i am not sure about the soldiers being Vietnamese.

Anyway, my point was trying to explain some reason why the " white people " act in such a naively way when travelling in third world countries.

[yourauntbob]

You judge the guy to be a "deviate" (sic) just because he's unfaithful to his wife - I consider that to be bizarre, not the Thai-style judgement of good and bad by the very simple standard "good for me" or "bad for me".

This to me makes perfect sense, I don't think it's our job to judge others as good or bad by some supposedly objective standard which in fact is usually just conformity to some arbitrary cultural standard.

Perhaps the couple has an understanding? Or even if they are deceiving each other, is it really any of your business?

And likewise if he likes to "waste" his money by spreading it around, how can you see that as a failing? If he ends up down and out broke and comes to you for help, well that's when you can say I told you so if insist, but until then "up to him" right?

I guess just don't understand what skin you've got in the game other than the desire to see yourself as morally superior because you choose to be monogamous and more cautious financially.

your not the full quid are you, not at all, the guy is a deviate for more reasons then one, but i'm not going to write a book here i'm getting to the point.

and yes i am morally superior to him, he is a disgrace for cheating on his wife and vice verca.

if you feel that strongly about him, then maybe you shouldnt hang around him. its starting to sound as if your here for us all to see things like you do and condem him. if he is being generous and charitable, and your sitting up there on your high horse, I am not so sure you are morally superior. i personally say to each their own, live and let live. if you dont like someone, keep your distance.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Anyway, my point was trying to explain some reason why the " white people " act in such a naively way when travelling in third world countries.

My theory is that they simply tend to be more naive.

Evil certainly exists back home, but it tends to be more well-hidden, especially in the socio-economically dominant circles of society, so a much higher percentage of ordinary people grow up without being exposed to it much, and therefore assume the rest of the world operates the same way.

Come to a place where evil runs the show most openly and they're like babes in the wood.

[SteeleJoe]

Well, not necessarily brown people, i remember as a young boy, being stuck in my deep feelings when i saw the picture of the young Vietnamese girl being burnt by napalm bombs, walking naked and crying desperately among indifferent , full geared American soldiers.

I read later she was adopted and given an education by some wonderful American family.

I still think Europeans and Americans have a lot to be forgiven.

Methinks your memory/imagination is playing tricks on you.

That would be Phan Thi Kim Phuc. She was bombed by the South Vietnamese Air Force and those were SVN troops in that picture. No doubt US troops were at times as bad or worse but not in the picture you saw. (And she was not walking but running -- along with much of her village).

She was never adopted by Americans. She was used by the government of Vietnam for years as a propaganda tool and as an adult she was a student in Cuba from whence she departed for a honeymoon in Moscow. She and her husband defected while laid over in Canada, and she was given asylum. She is now Canadian.

Europeans and Americans indeed have a lot for which to be forgiven. But what of the rest of the world? How many countries can you name that have no crimes against others or their OWN people in their history? (If you want to speak of Vietnam, obviously the US has much to answer for. What about the Vietnamese, the Chinese, or the Koreans in that war?)

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... i am going to look at the picture again, i am not sure about the soldiers being Vietnamese.

It's a matter of historical record. Moreover, I've spoken to both Kim Phuc (the girl in the picture) and Nick Ut (the photographer) about that very thing and others. But look for yourself:

http://blindflaneur.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/napalm_kim_phuc.jpg

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PS: If it makes any difference, her life was saved by the Americans (Barsky Unit)

Edited November 9, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[Kilgore Trout]

I generally dont worry what ignorant uneducated peasants think about me. YMMV

This wins the prize for the most colonial post of the year

I take it you consider yourself to be part of a higher caste than a peasant

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Completely agree that peasant should not be a pejorative but it's true that it's most commonly used that way.

Classist, snobbish yes, not sure what bearing on colonialism, he probably feels the same way about common people in his own country tool

[TommoPhysicist]

Well, not necessarily brown people, i remember as a young boy, being stuck in my deep feelings when i saw the picture of the young Vietnamese girl being burnt by napalm bombs, walking naked and crying desperately among indifferent , full geared American soldiers.

I read later she was adopted and given an education by some wonderful American family.

I still think Europeans and Americans have a lot to be forgiven.

The girl was not Thai

The country was not Thailand

The troops were not from Europe

The troops were not all white

Tell me again why I need to be forgiven (I'm from the UK).

Tell me again why I should feel guilty for something I didn't do nor given the choice to do.

Edited November 9, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[barefoot1988]

thai judgement? i almost certainly thought this would be a political thread

[TommoPhysicist]

Anyway, my point was trying to explain some reason why the " white people " act in such a naively way when travelling in third world countries.

My theory is that they simply tend to be more naive.

Evil certainly exists back home, but it tends to be more well-hidden, especially in the socio-economically dominant circles of society, so a much higher percentage of ordinary people grow up without being exposed to it much, and therefore assume the rest of the world operates the same way.

Come to a place where evil runs the show most openly and they're like babes in the wood.

I don't believe there is much evil happening in Thailand, or that many foreigners would encounter said evil if it were to happen. Evil is rare in all societies. Not to be confused with greed or corruption which are entirely different from evil and extremely common.

Edited November 9, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[tingtongtourist]

this thing i always see and does annoy me much the same as you.A guy who is basically an idiot handing out money to all, the thais will say ..oh, that man JAI DEE

in fact can be anyone who give out money freely,he is JAI DEE MUK and especially if buy a house

no matter the person or what bad things he do if he give out money he is good man

i am waiting for the person like this who i know to run out of money and then i do wonder if the thai opinion might change and he suddenly become MAI DEE

[TommoPhysicist]

this thing i always see and does annoy me much the same as you.A guy who is basically an idiot handing out money to all, the thais will say ..oh, that man JAI DEE

in fact can be anyone who give out money freely,he is JAI DEE MUK .......

I've not heard those two words generally used among the normal Thai population.

Only a certain sort of Thai that hangs around in bars.

Of course there are very few foreigners that mix with the general Thai population.

Edited November 9, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I don't believe there is much evil happening in Thailand, or that many foreigners would encounter said evil if it were to happen. Evil is rare in all societies. Not to be confused with greed or corruption which are entirely different from evil and extremely common.

There are of course degrees of evil, not black and white definitions.

Regardless of the semantics, I would say that gulling innocent people out of their money by trickery, fraud, lies etc is much more common (accepted) here in ordinary life than it is back home, so visitors have much less experience in it and therefore don't have well-developed defences against it.

All of this strictly in answer to:

> trying to explain some reason why the " white people " act in such a naively way when travelling in third world countries.

in response to the hypothesis that it was out of collective guilt for past wrongs.

I certainly don't think Thailand has more "evil" in my terms than back home, as I said I think it's just better hidden there, the corruption is endemic to the structure of the society and benefits those that pull the strings, while the common/surface society has a higher degree of straightforward trustworthiness.

[TommoPhysicist]

Regardless of the semantics, I would say that gulling innocent people out of their money by trickery, fraud, lies etc is much more common (accepted) here in ordinary life than it is back home, so visitors have much less experience in it and therefore don't have well-developed defences against it.

All of this strictly in answer to:

> trying to explain some reason why the " white people " act in such a naively way when travelling in third world countries.

Dishonesty is completely different from evil.

And are we really talking about 'white people', I think not.

In reality we are talking about 'foreign men', who overwhelmed by easily available sex for the first time in their lives, allow their emotions to overcome their common sense.

[tingtongtourist]

this thing i always see and does annoy me much the same as you.A guy who is basically an idiot handing out money to all, the thais will say ..oh, that man JAI DEE

in fact can be anyone who give out money freely,he is JAI DEE MUK .......

I've not heard those two words generally used among the normal Thai population.

Only a certain sort of Thai that hangs around in bars.

Of course there are very few foreigners that mix with the general Thai population.

you never heard a thai say the words jai dee?

[TommoPhysicist]

you never heard a thai say the words jai dee?

That's not what I wrote.

[mauGR1]

Well, not necessarily brown people, i remember as a young boy, being stuck in my deep feelings when i saw the picture of the young Vietnamese girl being burnt by napalm bombs, walking naked and crying desperately among indifferent , full geared American soldiers.

I read later she was adopted and given an education by some wonderful American family.

I still think Europeans and Americans have a lot to be forgiven.

The girl was not Thai

The country was not Thailand

The troops were not from Europe

The troops were not all white

Tell me again why I need to be forgiven (I'm from the UK).

Tell me again why I should feel guilty for something I didn't do nor given the choice to do.

It's all ok for me..

Personally, my father was in the Colonial Police in Ethiopia, and i know Italians committed atrocities against the population there.

I don't think my father was directly involved in committing atrocities, but no way he would have told me.

Few years ago i met a guy from Ethiopia, i told him i was sorry about what some Italians did to his people, he said never mind it's not your fault.

Still i can say my consciousness embrace my body,my family, my friends, my country, my race and all the humankind..

Sometimes i can be proud or ashamed to be simply human too.

Maybe this is nonsense, i am still working at it.

[SteeleJoe]

Still i can say my consciousness embrace my body,my family, my friends, my country, my race and all the humankind..

Sometimes i can be proud or ashamed to be simply human too.

Maybe this is nonsense, i am still working at it.

Maybe it is nonsense. But I can't help but like it (especially the way you finished).

[tingtongtourist]

you never heard a thai say the words jai dee?

That's not what I wrote.

oh i see, but now that i look at it again i can see what you really do say but you do not put in words

that you think every farang never hang around normal thai person, only hang around bargirl, Well everyone except you of course

interesting.but how you know whats said in bars by bargirl if you so good and you never been in the bar?

[TommoPhysicist]

you never heard a thai say the words jai dee?

That's not what I wrote.

oh i see, but now that i look at it again i can see what you really do say but you do not put in words

that you think every farang never hang around normal thai person, only hang around bargirl, Well everyone except you of course

interesting.but how you know whats said in bars by bargirl if you so good and you never been in the bar?

I go in bars all the time, my SIL is a bar girl. I sit with the girls and listen to their conversations.

In the village where I live with Thais only, the conversation content and word usage is entirely different.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Dishonesty is completely different from evil.

IMO difference in degree. If intentional dishonesty results in millions suffering an agonizing death sure that's more evil than a con artist separating a silly tourist from less than a month's income.

No point to me in quibbling further over semantics. . .

And are we really talking about 'white people', I think not. In reality we are talking about 'foreign men', who overwhelmed by easily available sex for the first time in their lives, allow their emotions to overcome their common sense.

I agree that's a big factor, the willingness to believe the scammers' lies motivated by the lesser head.

But no, I think the fact that naïveté - the fact that westerners tend to trust too much - is more general and behind more than just that one particular scam, applies also to the couple being taken in by the jewelry scam, guys who've been gulled over card games, people assuming their lawyer here is working in their interest.

[TommoPhysicist]

But no, I think the fact that naïveté - the fact that westerners tend to trust too much - is more general and behind more than just that one particular scam, applies also to the couple being taken in by the jewelry scam, guys who've been gulled over card games, people assuming their lawyer here is working in their interest.

Again, western men tend to trust too much, else we wouldn't have (nearly) all been taken in and vulnerable to the great western divorce asset stripping scam.

Edited November 9, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[tingtongtourist]

you never heard a thai say the words jai dee?

That's not what I wrote.

oh really,now i see, what you did write but not really put in words

you think every farang hang around bargirl and not normal Thai

that be everyone except for you of course