Staycool Ceiling Insulation - My Findings And Advice Wanted...

[KunMatt]

I was never convinced about the theory of using insulation in hot countries to cool a house but even so after reading various threads here, and on the advice and suggestions of members, I recently installed 15cm StayCool insulation from HomeMart throughout my entire house.

Bit of background; The whole house is built with 20cm Q-Cons. Single storey. Gabled vented roof. 18k BTU Aircon in the living room only.

There are two main rooms I wanted to cool, as well as the whole house in general but I really wanted a significant improvement in these two rooms;

• Our bedroom is on the East side of the house, long side of the room facing the sun, there is a 2m wide tiled concrete floor running the length of the house to the perimeter wall on the East side and no trees for shade.
  

• Our living room is on the West side of the house, long side facing the sun, there is a 2m wide tiled concreted area outside the living room. No trees are tall enough yet for any shading.
  

Before I installed insulation both rooms would naturally rise upto about 33° Celcius without AC when it was 37°C to 40° outside. Now I have installed the insulation the living room is max 30° and the bedroom is 31° max when 37°C to 40° outside. When I use the aircon in the living room the room gets cooler much quicker and stays cooler longer (so I guess the name of the insulation is apt).

HOWEVER, I am finding that even though the hottest each room will get in the daytime has dropped slightly, at nighttime the min temperature is not as cool as before (which I guess proves the insulation works!).

Before insulating the bedroom would get down to about 29° and the living room would get down to 26° with the windows closed, but since I have installed the insulation the bedroom will not get cooler than 30° and the living room will not get cooler than 28°, even when it is 24° outside! If I open the bedroom window when it is 24° outside the room will not cool lower than 28.5°!! Also, before I could use the living room AC to cool the bedroom too but now it is nowhere near as effective as before and when the living room is cooled to 26° the bedroom which is adjacent will not cool to below 29°.

What is quite telling is that as the outside temperature drops, the inside temperature of both rooms still rises if left uncooled by the AC which I can only imagine is caused by heat radiating from the concrete floors outside each room. In the daytime in direct sunlight the tiles are so hot that you cannot walk barefooted on them which I guess means they are greater than 60° and it seems plausible to me that they retain enough heat until dawn the next morning to heat the inside room to 31°, anyone else agree??!

On top of being a pain in the ass to install (and costing 30k baht) I'm beginning to think that this whole exercise has been a waste of time and money but also I now have the added benefit of a fire and and electrical hazard covering every room in my house as the metal foil that covers the insulation is electrically conductive. I am regretting going against my initial thoughts that ceiling insulation should not be used in tropical countries because it has worked wonders at sealing all of the hot air in our house but I really don't want to take it all out again if I can just find a way to make the rooms/house cooler at nights.

I am planning to build roof awnings over each room to shade the concrete tiled floor and if that doesn't help enough I'll install a small AC in the bedroom too. I can't imagine it will make the situation any worse but is there anything else I can do to improve this current setup? What kind of testing can I do to find an optimum solution?

Any advice (or best offers on 66 used packs of StayCool insulation) appreciated!!

[Naam]

is there anything else I can do to improve this current setup?

your current setup indicates clearly that you are not airing the non-airconditoned rooms when outside temperature has dropped.

If I open the bedroom window when it is 24° outside the room will not cool lower than 28.5°!!

if there is no possibility of cross ventilation the airflow of an open window is insufficient to lower the room temperature considerably.

In the daytime in direct sunlight the tiles are so hot that you cannot walk barefooted on them which I guess means they are greater than 60° and it seems plausible to me that they retain enough heat until dawn the next morning to heat the inside room to 31°, anyone else agree??!

i find it difficult to agree because you have mentioned "outside walls 20cm q-con blocks". a (partly) conclusive test would be to cool down the tiled area at sundown by hosing them down and see how it affects the inside temperature of the adjacent rooms (repeating the exercise for several days).

question: is this outside pathway connected to the concrete slab of your home, meaning was it poured as a part of the slab? a common procedure in Thailand. if yes you might have more direct heat transfer via the common slab then radiation through the q-con blocks.

[KunMatt]

question: is this outside pathway connected to the concrete slab of your home, meaning was it poured as a part of the slab? a common procedure in Thailand. if yes you might have more direct heat transfer via the common slab then radiation through the q-con blocks.

Yes, it is. They were not all poured together but the house's slab was first, then a 1m concrete pathway, then another stepped layer on top of that but with about 15cm of sand between the concrete pathway and the concrete for the tiled area.

I did mean that I believe the heat is radiating through the concrete block of the house, not through the walls. The floor tiles of the bedroom do not feel particularly warm but then they also do not feel as cool like in other rooms. I guess that to heat the room up to 31° wouldn't really require red hot floor tiles, just mildly warm, right?

Funnily enough I did cool down the tiles outisde the bedroom after the first insulated night by buying a few buckets of ice after the sun had gone over so that in the evening they were cold to the touch, but without doing this every day and charting the daytime temp, the tile temp and the bedroom temp over time it is very difficult to come to any conclusion.

As well as the roof awning I would like to be able to leave the windows open at night for ventilation but we have no insect screens over the windows. I will look for custom made screens or some solution next time I am in a hardware store but I'm not sure what's available, I'm hoping to find something that fits over the entire outside window frame thus also creating more shade for the windows aswell as totally blocking all insects and allowing me to open the windows from inside.

You mentioned before that double glazed windows were not so beneficial for tropical countries as they were in European and I guess that if I had double glazing my problem would only be worse.

I guess that there are not too many other factors I can manipulate to improve my situation.

Edited November 10, 2012 by KunMatt

[Naam]

I guess that there are not too many other factors I can manipulate to improve my situation.

did you read the threads which deal with attic and house ventilation Matt? forced ventilation (recessed ceiling fans) which blow warm inside air into your ventilated attic should be giving you quite some relief. i am talking about small fans ~25-30 watts which can be throttled by a rheostat (not a dimmer!) down to 50% that they are virtually noiseless.

[KunMatt]

I guess that there are not too many other factors I can manipulate to improve my situation.

did you read the threads which deal with attic and house ventilation Matt? forced ventilation (recessed ceiling fans) which blow warm inside air into your ventilated attic should be giving you quite some relief. i am talking about small fans ~25-30 watts which can be throttled by a rheostat (not a dimmer!) down to 50% that they are virtually noiseless.

Yeah it was one of my considerations before. We have one in our ensuite bathroom, I think it is 16W but I wouldn't want that noise in our bedroom all night.

Our bedroom is 25m2. However the recessed ceiling where all the hot would collect is about 20m2. You think a 30W fan working at 15W would be sufficient?

Also any recommendations on specific type of fan and brand? I live in Isaan and its not so easy to find everything but we have just got a HomePro!

Cheers for the help as always Naam. b

[doglover]

What if you used the idea of a small fan to ventilate the room with a twist. You could locate the fans somewhere else in the attic, like over the living room or kitchen say, and connect them with some sort of ductwork to venting holes in bedrooms. I wouldn't install the fan on the gable end of the attic venting directly outside however, as you would lose a wee little bit of potential to cool the attic space. Don't install the rheostat and run the fan at full power. If you find there is still bothersome noise then add the rheostat.

This should result in significant evening cooling, during the cool season, with the Q-con blocks. Of course you would want to install your insect screens first and possibly security bars?

[Naam]

Yeah it was one of my considerations before. We have one in our ensuite bathroom, I think it is 16W but I wouldn't want that noise in our bedroom all night.

Our bedroom is 25m2. However the recessed ceiling where all the hot would collect is about 20m2. You think a 30W fan working at 15W would be sufficient?

Also any recommendations on specific type of fan and brand? I live in Isaan and its not so easy to find everything but we have just got a HomePro!

Cheers for the help as always Naam. b

your problem is not what fan but getting a rheostat. most of the fans, especially the small ones, are quite noisy at rated speed. but if you throttle them with a rheostat 35-50% lower they are virtually noiseless. the type Thai builders install in bathrooms are useless and much too noisy for a bedroom. they run on high RPM and their fan blades are small. get any type of fan in HomePro which is meant for vertical installation, mount it horizontal in the ceiling and connect it to a rheostat.

this is the type i mean:

[KunMatt]

Yeah it was one of my considerations before. We have one in our ensuite bathroom, I think it is 16W but I wouldn't want that noise in our bedroom all night.

Our bedroom is 25m2. However the recessed ceiling where all the hot would collect is about 20m2. You think a 30W fan working at 15W would be sufficient?

Also any recommendations on specific type of fan and brand? I live in Isaan and its not so easy to find everything but we have just got a HomePro!

Cheers for the help as always Naam. b

your problem is not what fan but getting a rheostat. most of the fans, especially the small ones, are quite noisy at rated speed. but if you throttle them with a rheostat 35-50% lower they are virtually noiseless. the type Thai builders install in bathrooms are useless and much too noisy for a bedroom. they run on high RPM and their fan blades are small. get any type of fan in HomePro which is meant for vertical installation, mount it horizontal in the ceiling and connect it to a rheostat.

this is the type i mean:

I'm actually going to HomePro tomorrow anyways so will see what they have, even though I did promise my gf that insulating the ceilings would be the last strange thing I would do. Looks like Im gonna be installing 3 ceiling fans around the house (1 in bedroom, living room and the hall which is center of the house.

Cheers Ma'am. You're the man as always. b

Edited November 11, 2012 by KunMatt

[KunMatt]

Oops sorry. My phone autocorrect made that last sentance sound even sillier than usual.

Thank you Mr Naam!

[Naam]

Oops sorry. My phone autocorrect made that last sentance sound even sillier than usual.

Thank you Mr Naam!

[KunMatt]

OK, so I ended up getting 4 Mitsubishi ceiling fans;

2x 10" 23W that moves 0.48m3 / min / w

2x 8" 19W that moves 0.40m3 / min / w

I turned the larger one on and its very quiet.

Do you think the smaller fan would be suffient for our 25m2 bedroom or should I go with the larger one?

Cheers ma'am (ok that time was on purpose! )

[Naam]

Do you think the smaller fan would be suffient for our 25m2 bedroom or should I go with the larger one?

use the larger one which seems to be more quiet because of the bigger impeller and therefore lower rotations.

[KunMatt]

Do you think the smaller fan would be suffient for our 25m2 bedroom or should I go with the larger one?

use the larger one which seems to be more quiet because of the bigger impeller and therefore lower rotations.

Yep. I'd already decided to use one big fan for the bedroom and the other big fan for the hall, and to return the two small fans.

Just waiting on our electrician to have a day off from harvesting his rice so he can come and install them both in a couple of days...

Cheers.

[kamalabob2]

If any small birds get in your attic they LOVE to tear up StayCool and make it into a "house for birds". If you use that product and have a leak, it just is that much harder to find the roof leak. I would NOT buy StayCool or any similar insulation that is installed just under the roof tiles.

[Naam]

If any small birds get in your attic they LOVE to tear up StayCool and make it into a "house for birds". If you use that product and have a leak, it just is that much harder to find the roof leak. I would NOT buy StayCool or any similar insulation that is installed just under the roof tiles.

who installs StayCool direct under the roof tiles and not on the ceilings?

[KunMatt]

If any small birds get in your attic they LOVE to tear up StayCool and make it into a "house for birds". If you use that product and have a leak, it just is that much harder to find the roof leak. I would NOT buy StayCool or any similar insulation that is installed just under the roof tiles.

who installs StayCool direct under the roof tiles and not on the ceilings?

Wait, so that's where it was supposed to go?? No wonder I had such a hard time squeezing 150mm of product beneath the roof tiles!!

And where we live our area is bird free for some reason, it's quite weird. I've asked my gf why I never see any birds and she said because the locals ate them all! I was thinking about getting a birdhouse or bath to attract them but it might be seen as a buffet table.

There are tousands of birds around the temple though.

[Naam]

Wait, so that's where it was supposed to go?? No wonder I had such a hard time squeezing 150mm of product beneath the roof tiles!!

now you are pulling my leg, aren't you?

[KunMatt]

Wait, so that's where it was supposed to go?? No wonder I had such a hard time squeezing 150mm of product beneath the roof tiles!!

now you are pulling my leg, aren't you?

Of course I am. But even so, that larger StayCool was a pain in the ass to install, I don't think I benefited much more than if I had bought the 75mm much easier to install version.

[Naam]

Wait, so that's where it was supposed to go?? No wonder I had such a hard time squeezing 150mm of product beneath the roof tiles!!

now you are pulling my leg, aren't you?

Of course I am. But even so, that larger StayCool was a pain in the ass to install, I don't think I benefited much more than if I had bought the 75mm much easier to install version.

i don't understand why there is no "blow-in" insulation available in Thailand it's the done thing in many other countries. cheap and efficient, applied in no time.

[simple1]

If you install ceiling ventilators wouldn't you have to then have a mechanism to vent the hot air from the attic area? Would the proposed solution above address the issue as I have installed whirligigs on the roof, but have the same issue as the OP in the living areas.

[thaicbr]

Wait, so that's where it was supposed to go?? No wonder I had such a hard time squeezing 150mm of product beneath the roof tiles!!

now you are pulling my leg, aren't you?

Of course I am. But even so, that larger StayCool was a pain in the ass to install, I don't think I benefited much more than if I had bought the 75mm much easier to install version.

i don't understand why there is no "blow-in" insulation available in Thailand it's the done thing in many other countries. cheap and efficient, applied in no time.

I think there is. I saw a company on YouTube. Based in Rayong. I think.

Rf-foam.com

sent from my Q6

Edited November 15, 2012 by thaicbr

[Naam]

I think there is. I saw a company on YouTube. Based in Rayong. I think.

Rf-foam.com

sent from my Q6

dozens of foam companies exist. but foam is not blow-in insulation and foam is freaking expensive (400-500 Baht per m² at 5cm/2" thickness) and much more labour intensive to apply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_insulation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_foams_(insulation)

Edited November 15, 2012 by Naam

[thaicbr]

I think there is. I saw a company on YouTube. Based in Rayong. I think.

Rf-foam.com

sent from my Q6

dozens of foam companies exist. but foam is not blow-in insulation and foam is freaking expensive (400-500 Baht per m² at 5cm/2" thickness) and much more labour intensive to apply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_insulation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_foams_(insulation)

Didn't know that. Maybe they do the other as well

sent from my Q6

[Naam]

I think there is. I saw a company on YouTube. Based in Rayong. I think.

Rf-foam.com

sent from my Q6

dozens of foam companies exist. but foam is not blow-in insulation and foam is freaking expensive (400-500 Baht per m² at 5cm/2" thickness) and much more labour intensive to apply.

http://en.wikipedia....lose_insulation

http://en.wikipedia....ams_(insulation)

Didn't know that. Maybe they do the other as well

sent from my Q6

unfortunately there's not a single company in Thailand who does blow-in insulation. would be some excellent business in my opinion because of low cost and therefore wide spread affordability.

[fakename]

The thread about the whirlys seemed to have died, but it is the same question, as this thread. Maybe after the OP insulated his celing, all the heat stays in the attic, and cant get out at night. You need some way of getting rid of all that heat, either an electric fan or whirly. Im going with the whirly, but just havent had time to get the job done.

But cooling a house down, or in the Arctic regions, keeping the heat in, both need multiple answers. Just insulating the celing is just part of the answer, keeping the hot sun off the walls is another answer, with awnings or the roof extended. I doubt if you will get far with buckets of ice, but some roofs have a sprinkler system, but depending on you source of water, may be very expensive. Nothing wrong with your insulation, but your having other problems.

I have that same insulation, only enough for the bed room, but then thats the only room that we cool with aircon. Blown insulation would be great here, since most celings are made, so you cant walk on them, so the instalation is a hard job.

Hope we learn of the results of your ongoing heat problem.

[KunMatt]

The thread about the whirlys seemed to have died, but it is the same question, as this thread. Maybe after the OP insulated his celing, all the heat stays in the attic, and cant get out at night. You need some way of getting rid of all that heat, either an electric fan or whirly. Im going with the whirly, but just havent had time to get the job done.

I looked into Whirlybirds before but they cannot be installed on CPAC roofs according to our architect. The struts will not support the weight, which is a shame cuz I would have much preferred to go this route than the insulation.

I would've thought that now I have insulated the ceilings the temperature of the attic is not as much a factor in the temperature of the rooms below as before I installed insulation. In fact, the daytime temperature of the house is a few degrees cooler than it was before, it's just at night when the house feels warmer than it used to be. Also, when we were in the attic for the two days installing this StayCool the temperature was really not as extreme as I was expecting, possibly because of the under roof tile thick foil insulation.

Like I said, I have vented gables so there is a channel for the hot air to expel and it's not like the roof is sealed around the walls of the house or anything, air could quite easily flow in from below and out of the gable vents. I also built the whole house with 20cm Q-Cons so the sun shining on the walls is not a problem, even the outside of the walls feels cool at the peak of the daytime.

Apart from more shading on the concreted tiled walkways either side of the house which currently heat up to over 60 degrees (which I am building an awing over this weekend), and airflow out via ceiling fans (which I am installing tomorrow hopefully) there's not much more I can do except run aircons in more rooms which I really don't want to do cuz it would mean upgrading the mains power cables and electric meter above the 25kW and 15kW respectively I already have.

I will post the outcome of the upgrades that will hopefully be done over the next couple of days.

Cheers.

[Naam]

Maybe after the OP insulated his celing, all the heat stays in the attic, and cant get out at night. You need some way of getting rid of all that heat, either an electric fan or whirly.

KhunMatt didn't mention anything and i just assumed his attic is ventilated.

[Khun Jean]

I think there is. I saw a company on YouTube. Based in Rayong. I think.

Rf-foam.com

sent from my Q6

dozens of foam companies exist. but foam is not blow-in insulation and foam is freaking expensive (400-500 Baht per m² at 5cm/2" thickness) and much more labour intensive to apply.

http://en.wikipedia....lose_insulation

http://en.wikipedia....ams_(insulation)

Didn't know that. Maybe they do the other as well

sent from my Q6

unfortunately there's not a single company in Thailand who does blow-in insulation. would be some excellent business in my opinion because of low cost and therefore wide spread affordability.

The blown in insulation is normally made from cellulose material (recycled paper, wood etc.) with a fire retardant.

As cellulose material is hydrophilic it will absorb moisture. As such it is not really a good material in a tropical country, it will act as a sponge..

Maybe when the material is changed to styrofoam or something similar that is hydrophobic it would work.

[linno2]

If any small birds get in your attic they LOVE to tear up StayCool and make it into a "house for birds". If you use that product and have a leak, it just is that much harder to find the roof leak. I would NOT buy StayCool or any similar insulation that is installed just under the roof tiles.

who installs StayCool direct under the roof tiles and not on the ceilings?

Wait, so that's where it was supposed to go?? No wonder I had such a hard time squeezing 150mm of product beneath the roof tiles!!

And where we live our area is bird free for some reason, it's quite weird. I've asked my gf why I never see any birds and she said because the locals ate them all! I was thinking about getting a birdhouse or bath to attract them but it might be seen as a buffet table.

There are tousands of birds around the temple though.

The silver insulation 'paper' is installed close to the roofing tiles/steel and the batts of fibreglass (often foil covered) are placed inside flat on the ceiling - well that's what i just saw at a roofing display newly installed at Home Pro in Phi Mai. That's what i will be using when 'rebuilding' the lower level of my house that has just been raised 1.1 meters - required due to the resealing of the road that now makes it higher than the house and 2 floods in 3 years - one waist deep through the living room 3 years ago. Venting the ceiling is also a must and the methods suggested are good - the flexi ducting is easy to buy from Global or Do Home or Home Pro - 2 kinds - one made from silver and one from plastic (more rigid) - both flexible and used for air ducting to vent clothes dryers and over stove range hoods. Whirly's are very common in Australia - particularly in industrial settings.

Cheers!

[Naam]

unfortunately there's not a single company in Thailand who does blow-in insulation. would be some excellent business in my opinion because of low cost and therefore wide spread affordability.

The blown in insulation is normally made from cellulose material (recycled paper, wood etc.) with a fire retardant.

As cellulose material is hydrophilic it will absorb moisture. As such it is not really a good material in a tropical country, it will act as a sponge..

Maybe when the material is changed to styrofoam or something similar that is hydrophobic it would work.

the blow-in insulation commonly used in the Americas is not cellulose but mineral wool which is not hygroscopic.