A Day Of Reckoning For Thai Govt And Its Pitak Siam Opponents

[webfact]

Time to step back and reassess

Avudh Panananda

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Tomorrow will be a day of reckoning for the government and its Pitak Siam opponents, so perhaps both sides should reflect hard before charting their next move.

Although nobody is expecting this rally to oust the government, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's administration has five reasons to reassess the situation if it really wants to mend fences and overcome the political rough patch.

First, the ruling Pheu Thai Party should come to terms with the stark reality that despite its popularity and majority control, it will forever be haunted by strong opposition as long as it lets fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra be its puppeteer.

Second, government leaders should review their stance against opponents - whether they should be seen as undemocratic enemies or be engaged as partners to improve the political system.

Two years ago, the Democrats decided to shun the red shirts, portraying them as Thaksin's cronies. But they couldn't stop the red-shirt movement from growing by leaps and bounds. Pheu Thai bigwigs ought to heed this lesson and learn how to pacify instead of provoking the crowds.

Third, regardless of the rhetoric about democratic versus undemocratic struggle, Thaksin remains at the centre of the political divide.

The bottom line is, as long as Thaksin's fate remains uncertain, the country will not be able come out turmoil because both the pro- and anti-Thaksin camps will take turns citing his plight as a pretext to mobilise the masses to seize power.

Both the government and the opposition camp owe the Thai people a final decision on what they want to do about Thaksin, rather than letting the problem fester and cause untold damage.

Fourth, Thaksin is advised to maintain a low profile pending a resolution on his plight. The more clout he flaunts over the government and the red shirts, the more difficult it will become to forge an environment that is conducive to ending the political war of colours.

Fifth, the government should take note of the fact that Pitak Siam has timed its rally to coincide with Pheu Thai's renewed attempt to rewrite the Constitution.

The charter has been amended countless times, but this round is particularly tough because of mutual qualms.

The anti-Thaksin camp sees Pheu Thai-led amendments as a pretext to rescue the former PM from his conviction and jail sentence. The pro-Thaksin camp blames its opponents for trying to preserve the legacy of the 2006 coup instead of allowing democratic rule to bloom fully.

To ensure a fair chance of getting out of a stalemate, opponents should see the charter rewrite for what it is rather than turning it into an issue that revolves around Thaksin.

And Thaksin's supporters should engage their opponents in trying to advance democracy instead of pushing them into a corner and branding them as being undemocratic.

Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. They even fought against military intervention in order to restore democratic rule in the 1990s.

In 2005, they got disillusioned by Thaksin's autocratic leadership and now they just want to prevent this elected government from unleashing runaway power.

They might have erred in opting for street protests, but at least they are as passionate about democracy as the red shirts.

-- The Nation 2012-11- 23

[JurgenG]

One more stupid article that avoids the real problem.

"First, the ruling Pheu Thai Party should come to terms with the stark reality that despite its popularity and majority control, it will forever be haunted by strong opposition as long as it lets fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra be its puppeteer." What does that mean ? No more Thaksin, no more opposition ? A 99.9% approval rate ? Obviously the author of the article doesn't understand the reality of a democratic government.

"Second, government leaders should review their stance against opponents" : Which opponents ? Some minority fascist groups or the opposition side in the parliament ? Where does the democrats stand today ? Nowhere as usual.

Then it become more interesting.

"...whether they should be seen as undemocratic enemies or be engaged as partners to improve the political system." So we agree that Pitak Siam should be seen as an enemy of democracy. So again my question, where do the democrats stand here ?

We have a beginning of answer from the author, they should "be engaged as partners to" bla bla bla ...Basically give them a share of the pie and there will no more opposition. That's Thailand pre-Thaksin, the elite shares the loot, the working class shut up and works.

And the last sentence really summarize the problem "They might have erred in opting for street protests, but at least they are as passionate about democracy" This protest and its organizers are clearly enemies of democracy but there is no other avenue for people to express their opposition to the government because the opposition party, namely the democrats, are just a spineless bunch of lazy profiteers who are more interested by getting their share of the loot than building a democratic society.

Edited November 23, 2012 by JurgenG

[Roadman]

Your reply also fits the bill of stupidity that you are laying on the article.

[asiawatcher]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

Edited November 23, 2012 by asiawatcher

[Curt1591]

All the hype and hoopla leading up to this rally makes me think back to the 2006 coup. That came the night before the last "whatever-we-call-ourselvesithis-week, we-know-what's-good-for-you" "opposition" had planned to take to the streets. They don't fair well in the streets.

If they get brazen, and leave the confines of their rally zone, trouble will definitely follow. The police presence is probably more to keep them corralled, than to prevent outsiders from "invading".

BTW

All elections, worldwide, are bought!

Edited November 23, 2012 by Curt1591

[Mosha]

All the hype and hoopla leading up to this rally makes me think back to the 2006 coup. That came the night before the last "whatever-we-call-ourselvesithis-week, we-know-what's-good-for-you" "opposition" had planned to take to the streets. They don't fair well in the streets.

If they get brazen, and leave the confines of their rally zone, trouble will definitely follow. The police presence is probably more to keep them corralled, than to prevent outsiders from "invading".

BTW

All elections, worldwide, are bought!

....and if that fails, they've got 23,000 "volunteers" as back up.

[Thai at Heart]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

I don't see why you believe they won't be able to spark a coup. If they get an enormous amount of people, firstly it will be a huge show of discontent. Then, as we have seen, there is no practical way for the police to handle an enormous amount of protestors and break up a protest, so it will continue ad infinitum. This will inevitably cause a shift in the rhetoric against the government on stage, which leads to confrontations between firstly the police and then red shirts will get involved, so the army will step in to restore calm.

Once it leads down the road to armed confrontations, the only organisation that will be able to solve it is the army. There will be a massive clamour for them to step in to save the country from itself.

[JurgenG]

Your reply also fits the bill of stupidity that you are laying on the article.

I don't think calling other posters stupid without an explanation is part of a constructive debate, or even within forum rules for that matter.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for a more elaborate answer. But you being obviously a democrat supporter, don't expect me to hold my breath for too long

[smedly]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

I love reading your posts - they are very articulate and accurate, you are a master of words

[scorecard]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

Two points:

1. Until we have leaders who strongly and continuously espouse and follow the rule of law and in their leadership addresss / every comment, strongly encourage all citizens to repect the law, follow the law, and demand equal justice for all, then IMHO there won't be much progress towards real democracy.

2. I seriously hope that the addresses to the piak group on Saturday present facts and logic, and don't follow the red leaders approach, in their speeches of just hate and often mistruths. The result should be that those who attend the piak rally walk away well informed and understand what is happening and what should be happening.

Yeah I'm probably asking too much, but one must always hope.

Edited November 23, 2012 by scorecard

[JurgenG]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

I don't see why you believe they won't be able to spark a coup. If they get an enormous amount of people, firstly it will be a huge show of discontent. Then, as we have seen, there is no practical way for the police to handle an enormous amount of protestors and break up a protest, so it will continue ad infinitum. This will inevitably cause a shift in the rhetoric against the government on stage, which leads to confrontations between firstly the police and then red shirts will get involved, so the army will step in to restore calm.

Once it leads down the road to armed confrontations, the only organisation that will be able to solve it is the army. There will be a massive clamour for them to step in to save the country from itself.

I don't think there is any chance for a coup, for three major reasons :

1/ I don't think the army want to be involved again in government matters. Their last venture was a failure at all levels. I believe that for the time being they are happy where they are.

2/ Same thing for the "invisible hand" that was behind the anti-Thaksin movement

3/ Last but not least, this time there is no support from the formidable Sondhi's propaganda machine. If you monitor the social medias, it's very quiet now compared to the previous trouble periods

So definitively no chance for a coup this time.

[Crushdepth]

The government has done more to beat up this rally than everyone else put together. I doubt that such a massive crowd as predicted will turn out. I think they are just paranoid that their own tactics might be used against them.

Eg. A bit of bomb throwing here and there requiring an armed response, a bit of blood on the floor, a campaign to demonise the Fairy Princess as a ruthless killer and destabilise the government etc etc etc. Worked last time.

[Nickymaster]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

I love reading your posts - they are very articulate and accurate, you are a master of words

+1

[Schuimpge]

Scorecard: "1. Until we have leaders who strongly and continuously espouse and follow the rule of law and in their leadership addresss / every comment, strongly encourage all citizens to repect the law, follow the law, and demand equal justice for all, then IMHO there won't be much progress towards real democracy."

I think it's not so much about an honest group of politicians to step up. It's about educating people on the rights and wrongs of bribing/vote-buying.

Tea-Money in Thailand is a very deeply rooted habit. You can relate it back directly to the Feudal System of Olds, hundreds of years ago.

Lower class people depended on higher class people and vice versa.... You could work your way up the social ladder by 'buying' a group of people, by supporting them one way or the other, making them dependent or act as their leader.

That system is still being used by canvassers, only that it now takes the form of vote-buying.

It's ironic in its own way to see that Red and Yellow Shirts alike are protesting for democracy and will then take THB 500 to vote on a certain party. What they don't realize is that they support the old Feudal System, but are lead to believe they support and vote for democracy.

[angmo]

JurgenG

I agree with you completely.

Everybody always moans and bitches about vote buying.

Please give the Thai people more credit.

All my friends take the bribes from both parties and then go and vote for the party they prefer anyway. They are not stupid.

Very few actually vote for the guy who bribes them because of his THB 500.

[Businessman]

BTW

All elections, worldwide, are bought!

horse manure! I nor anyone I have met, have been offered money to vote for a candidate in my home country. All this "bought election" in other countries (short of Nigeria) talk is about campaign spending to maximize a candidate exposure to the masses, which actually a good thing. The more people who know the platform of a political party, the more chance they can cast an informed vote. This is NOT the same as passing out 500 baht bank notes to uninformed voters. In other countries million are spent getting the parties message out to the voters, in Thailand millions are spent buying votes with little or no regard to educating voters regarding the policies and platforms of the parties. Let's not confuse vote buying and campaign spending! While it may be true that he with the most money wins, the underlying premise is very, very different.

[NCFC]

BTW

All elections, worldwide, are bought!

horse manure! I nor anyone I have met, have been offered money to vote for a candidate in my home country. All this "bought election" in other countries (short of Nigeria) talk is about campaign spending to maximize a candidate exposure to the masses, which actually a good thing. The more people who know the platform of a political party, the more chance they can cast an informed vote. This is NOT the same as passing out 500 baht bank notes to uninformed voters. In other countries million are spent getting the parties message out to the voters, in Thailand millions are spent buying votes with little or no regard to educating voters regarding the policies and platforms of the parties. Let's not confuse vote buying and campaign spending! While it may be true that he with the most money wins, the underlying premise is very, very different.

Of course vote buying goes on in the West. It may not be so brazen as handing out banknotes, but socialist parties promise more handouts to the underclasses while capitalist parties promise tax cuts to workers. It is not asdirect as in Thailand but the reasoning is to buy your vote.

[MunterHunter]

Of course vote buying goes on in the West. It may not be so brazen as handing out banknotes, but socialist parties promise more handouts to the underclasses while capitalist parties promise tax cuts to workers. It is not asdirect as in Thailand but the reasoning is to buy your vote.

That's not vote buying - that's electoral promises and campaign pledges.

But, for the sake of argument, lets work on the basis that *IS* vote buying.

Rice Scheme, Tablets for School Kids, First Car/House Scheme is blatant and brazen vote buying on behalf of the PTP government who effectively 'bought' the election both with sponsorship money (Thaksin's 500b per vote) and Tax payers

money.

[Arkady]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

The problem here is that the courts are unable to open a criminal case, unless the accused is physically present in court to hear the charges read against them. The reason they were able to convict Thaksin in absentia in the Ratchadapisek land case is that he was arrogant enough to believe he would be acquitted - perhaps he thought his donut box gift to the court would be sufficient to do the job. So he actually showed up for the case during his brief visit in 2008. After his wife was convicted for tax fraud and the donuts were sent back, he realised things weren't going his way and did a runner before the verdict was handed down. The assets confiscation case could be tried entirely in absentia because it was not a criminal case.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Arkady

[farang000999]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

I don't see why you believe they won't be able to spark a coup. If they get an enormous amount of people, firstly it will be a huge show of discontent. Then, as we have seen, there is no practical way for the police to handle an enormous amount of protestors and break up a protest, so it will continue ad infinitum. This will inevitably cause a shift in the rhetoric against the government on stage, which leads to confrontations between firstly the police and then red shirts will get involved, so the army will step in to restore calm.

Once it leads down the road to armed confrontations, the only organisation that will be able to solve it is the army. There will be a massive clamour for them to step in to save the country from itself.

So why wasn't there a coup when the red shirts were protesting? Somehow the army was able to break up that protest without changing the government?

Dont you think the Thai people are sick of these protests? Why dont the yellow shirts just accept the democratic process and try harder to get elected fairly?

[Arkady]

Chalerm's reaction to this seems somewhat inconsistent. At first he said, no worries - they will not be able to get more than about 500 into the Turf Club. When he saw that every seat was filled at the Turf Club he started to piss himself. But only a few days ago he was still saying no Internal Security Act. The leaders probably are a bunch of old flakes but the point about Pitak Siam is that it is providing an outlet for some of the millions of Thais who didn't vote for PT and hate Thaksin. Otherwise PT thinks they have a mandate to do whatever they like and don't need to worry about the large minority who dislike them intensely.

Even when the Dems invoked the ISA and tried to involve the military the top brass were extremely reluctant to get involved. I think the ISA at this stage is purely designed to spread the blame, if things go wrong. The army is unlikely to react swiftly and efficiently to any orders given by the police chief but this could be used as a excuse if the police kill people. No one wants to face legal action after people have been killed during riot control which Thais always do in a ham fisted way.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Arkady

[McMagus]

BTW

All elections, worldwide, are bought!

horse manure! I nor anyone I have met, have been offered money to vote for a candidate in my home country. All this "bought election" in other countries (short of Nigeria) talk is about campaign spending to maximize a candidate exposure to the masses, which actually a good thing. The more people who know the platform of a political party, the more chance they can cast an informed vote. This is NOT the same as passing out 500 baht bank notes to uninformed voters. In other countries million are spent getting the parties message out to the voters, in Thailand millions are spent buying votes with little or no regard to educating voters regarding the policies and platforms of the parties. Let's not confuse vote buying and campaign spending! While it may be true that he with the most money wins, the underlying premise is very, very different.

Meethinks you are being a tad naive when you say that election costs and vote buying are not the same. Sure, there are differences but in the final wash-up the waters become so muddied that it is near impossible to tell what is what. In the west, we buy votes in a much more sophisticated way; there are lobby groups, advertising which bends the truth, then of course the common garden variety pork barrelling where a new hospital, or roads, or grants to prop up failing industries, or tax cuts etc., etc. are the common practise. These are all methods employed to garner support and it is only sophistry to claim that they are not a form of vote buying. In feudal societies like Thailand (I don't think for a moment it is anything close to a democracy) this has been the practise for aeons to show allegiance to the master. I suspect that Thais may well accept money from anybody then vote for whomsoever they please. I also can't agree with your support for unlimited campaign funds as a 'measure to get the message out' as it leaves itself open to bias from the wealthy and the power brokers. Given to understand that the recent US election cost $5,800,000,000 ...

[MrSlatersParrot]

Of course vote buying goes on in the West. It may not be so brazen as handing out banknotes, but socialist parties promise more handouts to the underclasses while capitalist parties promise tax cuts to workers. It is not asdirect as in Thailand but the reasoning is to buy your vote.

That's not vote buying - that's electoral promises and campaign pledges.

But, for the sake of argument, lets work on the basis that *IS* vote buying.

Rice Scheme, Tablets for School Kids, First Car/House Scheme is blatant and brazen vote buying on behalf of the PTP government who effectively 'bought' the election both with sponsorship money (Thaksin's 500b per vote) and Tax payers

money.

It's called Support for the poor which you obviously don't get.

It's a bit like Romney only going after the 53%, ignoring the other 47%.

Last I heard over 50 million americans are receiving food stamps.

Of course Abhisit relies on the (5)3% percent to get him in.

[Baerboxer]

One more stupid article that avoids the real problem.

"First, the ruling Pheu Thai Party should come to terms with the stark reality that despite its popularity and majority control, it will forever be haunted by strong opposition as long as it lets fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra be its puppeteer." What does that mean ? No more Thaksin, no more opposition ? A 99.9% approval rate ? Obviously the author of the article doesn't understand the reality of a democratic government.

"Second, government leaders should review their stance against opponents" : Which opponents ? Some minority fascist groups or the opposition side in the parliament ? Where does the democrats stand today ? Nowhere as usual.

Then it become more interesting.

"...whether they should be seen as undemocratic enemies or be engaged as partners to improve the political system." So we agree that Pitak Siam should be seen as an enemy of democracy. So again my question, where do the democrats stand here ?

We have a beginning of answer from the author, they should "be engaged as partners to" bla bla bla ...Basically give them a share of the pie and there will no more opposition. That's Thailand pre-Thaksin, the elite shares the loot, the working class shut up and works.

And the last sentence really summarize the problem "They might have erred in opting for street protests, but at least they are as passionate about democracy" This protest and its organizers are clearly enemies of democracy but there is no other avenue for people to express their opposition to the government because the opposition party, namely the democrats, are just a spineless bunch of lazy profiteers who are more interested by getting their share of the loot than building a democratic society.

Are you serious - this government interested in building a democacy? Much too busy counting the proceeeds of their scams and ploting their leaders return.

You actually believe that the current government behaves in the way that a democratically elected government should? Taking orders from a convicted criminal and fugitive, making appointments based on nepotism and cronyism, making false promises and lying, ignoring the law when it suits etc. These are fundamental breaches and are undepinned by corruption, theft and ineptness. Pre-Thaksin the elite shares the loot, post Thaksin his clan and cronies share the loot. Who says Pitak Siam are an enemy of democracy (apart from you)? They want to exercise the right to peaceful and lawful protest, as people in a democracy can do. They are protesting against a government who lie, steal, ignore the law, and allow criminals free reign. Presumably, you believe that the PTP's little white lie that it supports democracy. Wait and see how they behave when they loose an election.

[Schuimpge]

Of course vote buying goes on in the West. It may not be so brazen as handing out banknotes, but socialist parties promise more handouts to the underclasses while capitalist parties promise tax cuts to workers. It is not asdirect as in Thailand but the reasoning is to buy your vote.

That's not vote buying - that's electoral promises and campaign pledges.

But, for the sake of argument, lets work on the basis that *IS* vote buying.

Rice Scheme, Tablets for School Kids, First Car/House Scheme is blatant and brazen vote buying on behalf of the PTP government who effectively 'bought' the election both with sponsorship money (Thaksin's 500b per vote) and Tax payers

money.

It's called Support for the poor which you obviously don't get.

It's a bit like Romney only going after the 53%, ignoring the other 47%.

Last I heard over 50 million americans are receiving food stamps.

Of course Abhisit relies on the (5)3% percent to get him in.

No..it's called: Setting up schemes that are easy to pilferage. Are you really buying into their "helping the poor" stuff? I also heard that Santa is coming soon.

[Baerboxer]

I doubt the Ptak Siam opponents are able to overthrow anything. They will not cause a coup. They can only bring to light the continued mismanagement of Thailand by an inept Government bent on corrupt practice. Saturday, if it stays a protest and not a riot, will be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. But it will show others in Thailand there is a huge dissent between people and governance.

I like the statement "Key opposition figures have been working hard to turn Thailand's half-baked democracy into a full-fledged one since the 1980s. " The best part being 'half-baked' democracy. At least the journalist knows his work.

The thorn in the side of all is the continued interference by Thaksin in Thailand from afar. Remove that issue and a lot of the problems will cease. Sure, health failure, a bullet, not going to happen (I wish). The most important thing to do is get the courts to summons, try in his absence the other remaining charges (I understand there are at least 6), impose sentence of contempt of court for failure to appear, even if no case can be proven or resolve against the other charges, and lodge sentences against each charge of contempt. After all everyone forgets he is a bail jumper. Then there can be no pardon or change to the constitution that will allow his freedom. A charge for theft, fraud, bribery, murder et al can be overturned but contempt of court is never overturned. Oh well - wishful thinking. Can you imagine PTP trying to run Thailand without the puppet master? They wouldn't last a year. As for those who believe in this mob being a 'democratically elected' government, that can never be up held as long as votes can be bought, and they were.

I don't see why you believe they won't be able to spark a coup. If they get an enormous amount of people, firstly it will be a huge show of discontent. Then, as we have seen, there is no practical way for the police to handle an enormous amount of protestors and break up a protest, so it will continue ad infinitum. This will inevitably cause a shift in the rhetoric against the government on stage, which leads to confrontations between firstly the police and then red shirts will get involved, so the army will step in to restore calm.

Once it leads down the road to armed confrontations, the only organisation that will be able to solve it is the army. There will be a massive clamour for them to step in to save the country from itself.

So why wasn't there a coup when the red shirts were protesting? Somehow the army was able to break up that protest without changing the government?

Dont you think the Thai people are sick of these protests? Why dont the yellow shirts just accept the democratic process and try harder to get elected fairly?

Have a look at what is going on around the world. People in many countries take part in public protests - not just in Thailand. Of course, if you do it in some countries, the goevernments will use extreme force to oppress it because they can't accept any criticism or the truth.

An elected government does not have a mandate to ignore the law and constitution, make new rules up as it goes along, and steal state money for personal gain. if it behaves so then it is subject to protest and hopefully censure.

[Pimay1]

One more stupid article that avoids the real problem.

"First, the ruling Pheu Thai Party should come to terms with the stark reality that despite its popularity and majority control, it will forever be haunted by strong opposition as long as it lets fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra be its puppeteer." What does that mean ? No more Thaksin, no more opposition ? A 99.9% approval rate ? Obviously the author of the article doesn't understand the reality of a democratic government.

"Second, government leaders should review their stance against opponents" : Which opponents ? Some minority fascist groups or the opposition side in the parliament ? Where does the democrats stand today ? Nowhere as usual.

Then it become more interesting.

"...whether they should be seen as undemocratic enemies or be engaged as partners to improve the political system." So we agree that Pitak Siam should be seen as an enemy of democracy. So again my question, where do the democrats stand here ?

We have a beginning of answer from the author, they should "be engaged as partners to" bla bla bla ...Basically give them a share of the pie and there will no more opposition. That's Thailand pre-Thaksin, the elite shares the loot, the working class shut up and works.

And the last sentence really summarize the problem "They might have erred in opting for street protests, but at least they are as passionate about democracy" This protest and its organizers are clearly enemies of democracy but there is no other avenue for people to express their opposition to the government because the opposition party, namely the democrats, are just a spineless bunch of lazy profiteers who are more interested by getting their share of the loot than building a democratic society.

Are you serious - this government interested in building a democacy? Much too busy counting the proceeeds of their scams and ploting their leaders return.

You actually believe that the current government behaves in the way that a democratically elected government should? Taking orders from a convicted criminal and fugitive, making appointments based on nepotism and cronyism, making false promises and lying, ignoring the law when it suits etc. These are fundamental breaches and are undepinned by corruption, theft and ineptness. Pre-Thaksin the elite shares the loot, post Thaksin his clan and cronies share the loot. Who says Pitak Siam are an enemy of democracy (apart from you)? They want to exercise the right to peaceful and lawful protest, as people in a democracy can do. They are protesting against a government who lie, steal, ignore the law, and allow criminals free reign. Presumably, you believe that the PTP's little white lie that it supports democracy. Wait and see how they behave when they loose an election.

Of course he does not actually believe what he posted. He is just trying to get a debate going. No one with an IQ of at least room temp C would believe what he posted. But it makes for good back and forth.

[Baerboxer]

Your reply also fits the bill of stupidity that you are laying on the article.

I don't think calling other posters stupid without an explanation is part of a constructive debate, or even within forum rules for that matter.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for a more elaborate answer. But you being obviously a democrat supporter, don't expect me to hold my breath for too long

Calling other people stupid is indeed not contstructive to debate and hopefully dialogue. But there again, neither is making assumption about someone's political views and publicly labelling them as such.

[Baerboxer]

One more stupid article that avoids the real problem.

"First, the ruling Pheu Thai Party should come to terms with the stark reality that despite its popularity and majority control, it will forever be haunted by strong opposition as long as it lets fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra be its puppeteer." What does that mean ? No more Thaksin, no more opposition ? A 99.9% approval rate ? Obviously the author of the article doesn't understand the reality of a democratic government.

"Second, government leaders should review their stance against opponents" : Which opponents ? Some minority fascist groups or the opposition side in the parliament ? Where does the democrats stand today ? Nowhere as usual.

Then it become more interesting.

"...whether they should be seen as undemocratic enemies or be engaged as partners to improve the political system." So we agree that Pitak Siam should be seen as an enemy of democracy. So again my question, where do the democrats stand here ?

We have a beginning of answer from the author, they should "be engaged as partners to" bla bla bla ...Basically give them a share of the pie and there will no more opposition. That's Thailand pre-Thaksin, the elite shares the loot, the working class shut up and works.

And the last sentence really summarize the problem "They might have erred in opting for street protests, but at least they are as passionate about democracy" This protest and its organizers are clearly enemies of democracy but there is no other avenue for people to express their opposition to the government because the opposition party, namely the democrats, are just a spineless bunch of lazy profiteers who are more interested by getting their share of the loot than building a democratic society.

Are you serious - this government interested in building a democacy? Much too busy counting the proceeeds of their scams and ploting their leaders return.

You actually believe that the current government behaves in the way that a democratically elected government should? Taking orders from a convicted criminal and fugitive, making appointments based on nepotism and cronyism, making false promises and lying, ignoring the law when it suits etc. These are fundamental breaches and are undepinned by corruption, theft and ineptness. Pre-Thaksin the elite shares the loot, post Thaksin his clan and cronies share the loot. Who says Pitak Siam are an enemy of democracy (apart from you)? They want to exercise the right to peaceful and lawful protest, as people in a democracy can do. They are protesting against a government who lie, steal, ignore the law, and allow criminals free reign. Presumably, you believe that the PTP's little white lie that it supports democracy. Wait and see how they behave when they loose an election.

Of course he does not actually believe what he posted. He is just trying to get a debate going. No one with an IQ of at least room temp C would believe what he posted. But it makes for good back and forth.

Yep - having read his other posts I think you're right. Still, it's beem a quite day and not been trolled for a while!

[Roadman]

Your reply also fits the bill of stupidity that you are laying on the article.

I don't think calling other posters stupid without an explanation is part of a constructive debate, or even within forum rules for that matter.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for a more elaborate answer. But you being obviously a democrat supporter, don't expect me to hold my breath for too long

Should that forum rule that you wish to uphold not apply also to the author of the article?

The protestors are not against democracy. Apart from the stupidity of the coup comment most there will be very much for democracy or more so against the hijacking of it by a fugitive criminal in Dubai. Found guilty in a criminal court, by his peers under the governance of one of his own proxy parties. And now again as he was doing when he screwed up last time, attempting to gain control over all who can hold him to account. You hold the Democrats in contempt and fairly so where corruption and pathetic moral fibre do exist, but every excuse is made for The Pheu Thai party governed by a fugitive criminal and where within scum with more larger crimes within Thailand than corruption are rewarded...and this is the democratic alternative you lot put forward. The intent from the Shinwatra's all along is complete control of Thailand with total and absolute power held by their family....democracy???...and you label the writers article with stupidity?