NedKelly Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Its the principle of the thing. I agree that as a farang foreigner we may have access to more cash than some Thais (but definitely not all). But this is also a perception, a generalisation etc etc. Small rise in prices when negotiatingto buy something is normal anywhere in Asia. But the blatant and arrogant rise in entry to fee to a nationa park for example is the result only of direct discrimination whether it be racial, economic or whatever. The fact is that the money does not seem to be doing any good ......where are the facilities and the the environmental protection prgrammes and staff training that this money should be funding ? Maybe it is going into several back pockets along it's path into consolidated revenue !! The principle !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I am going to waste some more breath. NATIONAL PARKS Yes it is the principal. Yes it can be perceived as racist given western cultural sensibilities and yes to all that other stuff too that is unfair. Cause at the end of the day it really is. A couple of things though, there are way around things. As people have shown, and as I have seen, if you have at tax ID card, speak a some good of Thai (which I think is a fair enough expectation for people who live here) then you should be able to get in using the Thai price when entering national parks. Is this the ideal way to do things? No, but it works well enough for the deserving farang who can show he is not just "another farang". Ideally I think alot of Thais would like to change the system, most of all the poor bloke who collects the money gets yelled out and abused by discontented farangs. But it will take no less than the minister to give a flying <deleted> about the issue before things change. Don't hold your breath for this to happen anytime soon. Given this, be pragmatic and take the "work around" approach of learning good Thai. PRIVATE SECTOR As for the private sector theme parks, if you don't like it, don't go. But if it is once a year, bite the bullet and just go enjoy yourself saving yourself an early heart attack. But it encouraging to see that the Thai service business are waking up slowly. As I said previously, airlines and hotels are beginning to give Thai resident (as opposed to Thai citizen) discounts here. I reckon this business model will spread to other places as well. Things take time, but they will change. DOING BUSINESS As for doing business here, well I think you may find that you are being treated equally as opposed to different. It is unfortunate that people get stung here. But then again, you are not alone. Lots of Thai businesses fail for the same reasons as farang businesses. Lots of people get screwed over. Lots of my Thai relatives who run business have to deal with the same problems too. Lots of them got screwed over by so-called friends in 1997 as well. Just make sure you go in with your eyes open. Use people in places like this forum to get advice. Thais businesses are very cliquey and there are all sorts of unofficial alliances and networks. Let this website be your first network. This website is an incredibly valuable tool for those who know how to use it and ask the right questions. Unfortunately quite often you only get to see a couple vague questions/observations posted here. Firstly, there are the incomplete questions on how to move here and set up, and then some frustrated/saddening/racist comments later when things haven't gone to “plan”. The moderators here I have found are totally committed to helping people out here with hard facts and proper smart, intellectual and detailed questions. Talk to other Long Term farangs who are already successful here to see how they do things. The amazing thing about being overseas I have found is that other expats are incredibly helpful. By all means take advantage of that, but be wary. Take your time and be patient. Be prudent. It is the Thai way and there is a reason for it. Will you fail?? There is that possibility…but isn’t that life? THE THAI’S Thais are incredibly hard people to make friends with. There is a reason why a lot of Thais hang out with their families. Thai’s will be great acquaintances straight off the bat, but always a little distant. If you are just an acquaintance, have fun, but don’t mistake it for anything else. However, if YOU do something for a Thai that they find important to them, whatever that one thing may be, and then continue to do it for them, a Thai person will be the most devoted friend for life, almost willing to take a bullet for you. WHY AM I WASTING MY BREATH?? Two reasons: a) Thailand is a frigging great country. Thailand doesn’t deserved to be slagged off like happens here occasionally, it deserves more respect than many farangs here give it. Those people who think they are special(and there seems to be a tonne of them) are a waste of space and should just pack up and go home. They don’t want to be here, and frankly, Thailand doesn’t want or need them. The place is full of frustrations and challenges, but it is rewarding too. There isn’t a day that I am not bored here. I might not have great days sometimes, but I am never bored. I am also wasting my breath cause I am leaving these shores for a while, so I am kind feeling sentimental and willing to go that extra inch to defend this place. That will make some people who have bashed heads with recently happy I’m sure. Thailand can be criticised. But there are reasons things are they way they are. There are usually ways around them if people bother to find out how. You have to be pragmatic and patient if you want to be here. But the place or its people don’t deserve the type of the derision it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger13 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 back to dodging fares Hi Chanchao, I don't think we should be lowering ourselves to "Dodging" Park Fees. Sweet Talk, Charming attitude, Tax Cards, Thai driving Licences - are acceptable ploys But CHEATING - (going in thru a Temple or back door) and blatant LYING - (only 8 people in a tinted glass vehicle) is just not acceptable behaviour. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymon'd Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 DON'T PAY! If you know they asked you a double price, it is still up to you to pay it or not. Learn a Litle Thai and you shall see that they don't rip your off? Last option, look for a better Thai Woman with Brains. She will pay more less than you ever dreamed off and you'll save allot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 DON'T PAY!If you know they asked you a double price, it is still up to you to pay it or not. Learn a Litle Thai and you shall see that they don't rip your off? Last option, look for a better Thai Woman with Brains. She will pay more less than you ever dreamed off and you'll save allot of money. and this better Thai woman won't cost you either...well not too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 However, if YOU do something for a Thai that they find important to them, whatever that one thing may be, and then continue to do it for them, a Thai person will be the most devoted friend for life, almost willing to take a bullet for you. A very good and very true point, samran. But judging from quite a substantial number of comments about the Thai and Thailand on this forum, I am not sure many farang will agree with you,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IT Manager Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Let's take the "problem" the other way round.Do the foreigners visiting Thailand find it expensive to visit national parks, old monuments or temples,...? As far as I am concerned, I never heard anybody complaining that the prices they paid were out of the ordinary or higher than in any other country. The Thai people pay less and so what? I so far also never heard a farang in Thailand complaining that his salary or income was too high and that he wanted to be adjusted down to the level of the average income of the Thai people,... I am really getting to like you a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Let's take the "problem" the other way round.Do the foreigners visiting Thailand find it expensive to visit national parks, old monuments or temples,...? As far as I am concerned, I never heard anybody complaining that the prices they paid were out of the ordinary or higher than in any other country. The Thai people pay less and so what? I so far also never heard a farang in Thailand complaining that his salary or income was too high and that he wanted to be adjusted down to the level of the average income of the Thai people,... I am really getting to like you a lot. He is a good fellow IT...it seems to me that an expat on expats salary and benefits is somewhat better off than most Thai execs here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchybollockov Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Who’d have thought that a couple of guys talking over beers (Me and GuestHouse getting drunk) would have lead to this?! There have been over 1800 views of this topic in matter of days, it is clear that Double Pricing is something people feel strongly about, I might add that while people obviously feel strongly about this matter there is relatively little invective. It has, bye and large been an informative and well argued debate. Guest house and I have already started work on the Database and we hope to have it up and running in the next few days, I’ve already asked a few people to help with Beta testing so keep your search engines at the ready, I’ll post the URL as soon as we are happy we have the right structure and format. He says, not wanting to give too much away. If I can add my penneth’s worth to the debate. I’ve been legally living and working in Thailand for over eleven years, I speak fluent Thai and my written Thai is of Undergraduate standard. I call to make bookings at hotels and the receptionist will most times not know I am a foreigner, over the phone I’m often mistaken for a Thai that has lived overseas. So I’m often quoted the Thai price, until that is I give my name; then I get the shuffle and the mumbles and the switch to another member of staff (who god only knows speaks to me in English). It’s at this point I’m told that I can’t have the price I’ve been quoted or that the hotel is suddenly fully booked. The worst cases arise when a foreign owned hotel operates racist pricing policies, they can’t claim they don’t know about ‘Western Sensibilities’ they are just profiteering. But in truth it has nothing to do with Western Sensibilities, if a person is charged more for a service because of their race then the pricing policy is racist. It’s not about their view or our view Racism is defined as discrimination on the grounds of race PERIOD. Nor is this idea of setting up a database Anti Thai, it is Anti Racist Pricing Policy, it aims to provide customers with information to help them choose where they want to spend their money. Arguments that such policies exist elsewhere are also irrelevant, let the people living in those places tackle the problems over there. I believe we have a duty to fight racism wherever we find it, I’ve found it in the pricing policies of Thailand’s hotels, national parks, national museums, private businesses and perhaps worst of all Bank. I’ve read the arguments about national parks being good value at Bht200 so why complain? Well two things, the price is based on race but more importantly the sign outside declaring two prices is a message to every Thai who enters the park that it’s OK to rip-off foreigners – Hey look the Government are doing it! But let me tackle the worst argument. “This is Thailand, if you don’t like it go home”. Well we are all entitled to an opinion and outlook on life, I believe we should take part in the communities we live in, give something of ourselves and help the world along. Finding myself in Thailand I’m inclined to want to do something positive about the things I don’t like. And you know, if it comes off, if prices where dropped to a single level, all those people who would deny us the right to take part in the Thailand we live in will be only too happy to enjoy the improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvtDick Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I agree with you Itchy. My only argument would be in your use of the terms "racist" and "racism", when in fact the double-pricing is based not on race but on nationality. So it's a "nationalistic" practice, not a racist one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger13 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Nor is this idea of setting up a database Anti Thai Yes - I hope you highlight those places that discriminate against Thais and Charge them more. A practise which in my opinion is meant to discourage them rather than to rip them off. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Yes - I hope you highlight those places that discriminate against Thais and Charge them more. Also make sure to highlight the places that don't welcome Thais at all (usually some of the more shmick hotels). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gisele Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 The practice of charging a different price to foreigners also occurs here in China, though showing a green card often lowers the price somewhat. A Laowai may pay anywhere from 25% to double the price in places that attract tourists say like the Great Wall. However the situation is improving yearly. Still I am always taken aback at some of the differences I have encountered when I am in Thailand. The gap between 20 bath and 200 baht for entrance in parks is difficult to ignore. Double is one thing, 10 times more is highway robbery, it's the principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebear Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 In Patty - what do you pay for Sawng Thaew (Baht Bus)? My wife pays 5 baht, my six-year-old pays nothing - I pay 10 baht. In Pattaya the sonthaew is 5Baht. 10 Baht is the MAXIMUM fare they can charge you. If I am going from say walking street junction on 2nd road I pay 5B up to the dolphin roundabout. beyond that 10B. Or 2nd road up to jomtien 10B. I have never been questioned about this by the drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovenman Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Double is one thing, 10 times more is highway robbery, it's the principle. A ten-fold difference is exorbitant but it could be worse. India charges foreigners Rs 750/- to visit the Taj Mahal whereas Indians are charged Rs 20/-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buasaard Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Some EU countries are pretty bad too. From my experience, EU citizens pay nothing or very little in many museums and gallaries in places like Spain and Italy, non EU people pay through the nose. What are you talking about? I don't know in Spain, but in Italy everybody pays the same prices everywhere. There are discounts for various categories such as disabled (no matter their nationality), soldiers with uniform, elderly people with the "silver card" issued by municipality, kids (no matter their nationality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Some EU countries are pretty bad too. From my experience, EU citizens pay nothing or very little in many museums and gallaries in places like Spain and Italy, non EU people pay through the nose. What are you talking about? I don't know in Spain, but in Italy everybody pays the same prices everywhere. There are discounts for various categories such as disabled (no matter their nationality), soldiers with uniform, elderly people with the "silver card" issued by municipality, kids (no matter their nationality). From memory: travelled with some aussie friends who had Italian passports who got into the Uffizi either cheaper or for free. Clearly remember them flashing their EU passports a couple of times and getting some stuff cheaper. In spain, I particularly remember the Palace in Madrid had certain deals for EU citizens. Rail travel, EU citizens and residents got special deals with train passes (worked out cheaper than Eurail passes for us foreigners). What I remember is being just generally annoyed as at the time, as I was earning "aussie peso's" and having to pay more, when I earnt less than the average EU'er! But hey, I enjoyed myself, and am thinking of moving there at some stage soon!! Will make sure I get my fake student pass from KSR before I go though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedKelly Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 My morningmotorcycle taxi costs me 20 baht. The first time i used them they quoted me 15 baht. I found that locals pay 10. But after a couple of days I started to pay 20 because it was easier than 15 (most of the time anyway) and I also felt that the guys onthe corner always looked out for me, so I rewarded the service. Now I sit with them and drink beers and we have a great time. Nothing is ever a problem. If it was always like this I would never mind paying a bit extra. I am employed locally, so I dont consider myself an expat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gentleman Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I understand, the mods and the people like myself who live in Thailand, expressing positive views of this country - I do to, but to say its ok for a foreigner compared to a Thai is racist - end of story. You guys can fluff it up and be patriotic, but as an Aussie, if it happened in my country (no I have never seen it), you would be sued, simple as that.. Balance your wage structures and debate the ideas why it is happening, but it is wrong - If you want to reverse your car out of the park, do it - if you want to pay, pay it - but it is racist in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 This little guy always reminds me of TISM in concert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buasaard Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Can happen with residents on transports(but this applies also to resident foreigners), for instance to get to Sardinia, residents are entitled to discounts on airlines or on ferries. But frankly the Uffizi seems very strange, I went to various museums in Rome, I don't pay as I'm a disabled but my wife (born thai but italian citizen) pays full ticket and there are no double prices shown on entrance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gentleman Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 This little guy always reminds me of TISM in concert. yes he does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Guest house and I have already started work on the Database and we hope to have it up and running in the next few days i just finshed your database in SQL for you: places with double prices for farangs BUFFER OVERFLOW same prices for both thais and farangs AIRPORT TAX <500 baht> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiplash Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Well, for thoose familiar with the Star Trek series.. It makes me think that the Ferengi race are based somewhat on the Thai people.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I believe that double pricing is more than often caused by tourist. Tourist don't mind spending their money, because the exchange rate is good, they feel like kings. When you are here to stay it is a different story but then by this time the locals are unable to differentiate that we are not tourist anymore, they are not racist but it is just that they have got used to charging us at that price. Well, if you think that you are being charged too high just go somewhere else after all it is our money and we should decide how and where and when we should spend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Guest house and I have already started work on the Database and we hope to have it up and running in the next few days i just finshed your database in SQL for you: places with double prices for farangs BUFFER OVERFLOW same prices for both thais and farangs AIRPORT TAX <500 baht> The departure tax used to be much higher for Thais ...to discourage travel abroad. Keep the money in Thailand philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 The worst cases arise when a foreign owned hotel operates racist pricing policies, they can’t claim they don’t know about ‘Western Sensibilities’ they are just profiteering.But in truth it has nothing to do with Western Sensibilities, if a person is charged more for a service because of their race then the pricing policy is racist. It’s not about their view or our view Racism is defined as discrimination on the grounds of race PERIOD. ????? Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins Publishers: racism ['reısızəm], noun 1 the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others 2 abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief What races are we talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 The Kentucky Derby ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Barber in my village charges me 40 baht. My Akha son 40 baht. My Thai son 40 baht. He does the monk for free. FREE! For the monk! That is very unfair! I want free haircuts now! Another example for this ridiculous double pricing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Barber in my village charges me 40 baht. My Akha son 40 baht. My Thai son 40 baht. He does the monk for free. FREE! For the monk! That is very unfair! I want free haircuts now! Another example for this ridiculous double pricing! Did you share your riduculous posting with your wife ? I wonder how many Catholic priests pay for a haircut in Ireland. GROW UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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