Double Pricing

[the gentleman]

just do like i did today and have done a few times already.

Drive up to the gate of the national park... ask how much.... for my thai wife = 20

for you 200.

You look at hem if they are gansters , and (fake smilingly) ask. You have good business farang lately.

Put the car in reverse and turn back.

I 500 tourists do that every month they'll change the price one day..

BTW the waterfall is mostky reachable from another road also , just ask the locals.

not that they are so great anyway

B

I had an experience, exactly the same a couple of weeks back, in Khao Lak, maybe it is the same waterfall you mentioned - i also smiled, reversed and drove off - not the money, the principal. I also saw no other cars in the car park, so maybe eventually they will change there ways.

[samran]

I kinda sympathise with many people on this, but in the scheme of things, there are bigger fish to fry. Thailand has a hard enough time coming to grips with the concept of "equity" amongst themselves.

I know National park entry prices irk alot of foreingers, but when I visit one, I always notice alot of average Thai families there who aren't very rich, walking around in wonder enjoying the novelty of greenery, fresh air and relaxation which doesn't seem to be a regular feature in the average Thai's life (at least here in BKK). Given this, at least the 20 baht entry price seem at least partly justified, when these "average" thais face quite alot of inequities in their day to day lives.

It is harder for some farangs living here who aren't earning very much, too, and I don't really have an answer for those people. Having said that (me being an economist here) it is fairly efficient to price discriminate based on the nationality of a person here. Odds are, you'll be able to afford what they are asking. And it seems 95 out of 100 farangs cop the 200 baht fee, so that type of system seems to work.

It would be good to charge rich Thai's the higher amount too, but as an old economics professor used to teach me, you have to balance the equity of the scheme with the efficacy of it. It would cost the government millions they really can't afford to implement a scheme just so they can issue some sort of "low income card" to 75% or 80% of the population who would qualify for it anyway. Better and cheaper just to keep the system as is, until that day when there are more middle class Thai's to make such a system truely worthwhile.

I notice things are changing though with the private sector at least. I have noticed more and more special deals with hotels and airfares offered to "Thai residents" as opposed to Thai citizens. It seems to becoming more widespread too.

On a trip last year to a nice hotel on Ko Lanta, all my Aussie friends who live here in BKK were given the lower residents price, which worked out to about 20% cheaper. As for other businesses, I wonder whether there is terribbly much double pricing outside your tourist centres. Though I could be wrong on that last point.

Given the rather slow uptake of government officials on these things, expect it to be another 20 years before they click that there is a better way on the government sector to price things (I should know, I used to work for them).

In the meantime, I guess, the term "swings and roundabouts" comes to mind when I think about the pro's and cons of living in Thailand.

[Zendesigner]

sure i don't mind they increase the price reasonably. But A 1000 % markup ????

times TEN ????

to look at some nature ????. Their national parks should be free for all citizens and tourists alike. minus maybe a small cost to keep the thing clean cause thais seem to leave plastic hanging around everywhere.

Normal RESIDENT price ?? You know how much that cost to become a resident ??

A whopping 200.000 bath or 4 year salary's of a average thai?

If thai economy can provide me with a tenfold salary of a "poor" thai then i'll gladly pay the TEN times price of their stupid park.

But they are not to hasty on that subject also...

a guy in phuket once said when i complained about the stupid price " sorry sir but your wife can go in for free" yeah take the 250 (farang + car + wife) and give 20 back , how original.

I just tell them in their face " i'm not a tourist, and turn around".

b

[samran]

Normal RESIDENT price ?? You know how much that cost to become a resident ??

A whopping 200.000 bath or 4 year salary's of a average thai?

If thai economy can provide me with a tenfold salary of a "poor" thai then i'll gladly pay the TEN times price of their stupid park.

Re: Residents pricing - All you need is a valid work permit or year long non immigrant B-O visa and hotels and airlines will give you the residents discount. Me and my friends have used this many times.

As for the 10 times the price for 10 times the income? Re-read my email, enforcing and administering a price discrimination system based on income like that would bankrupt a country like Thailand. Its economics and common sense 101.

(If you want me to be a real smart arse: I'll tell you about marginal utility of income and other related topics, showing that you don't need 10 times the income to want to pay 10 times what someone else pays. But thats only if you pass economics 101 first).

As for your email generally - living in Thailand is all about swings and roundabouts. You win many, you lose a few. Chill dude.

[Pink Mist]

Maybe off the thread topic slightly but a couple of years ago in Bangkok my Wife took me to the reclining Buddha.

I paid to get in, Thais are free, no big deal.

The funny part was shoe storage, Farang one end and Thai other.

Well I am at the Thai end and this Attendant confronts me and says I can't put my shoes with Thai people shoes.

I told him I wasn't gonna but he gets all upset and starts trying to force me to the other end.

I said I wasn't doing any harm just standing there and this guy is getting really flustered.

My Wife who was standing in the background came over, casually took my sandles and sat down.

This guy doesn't know what to do, he is really upset with no way to vent his anger.

I simply smiled at him and walked in.

I havn't seen anything like this in other places we have visited, all the shoes get left outside.

[taxexile]

i feel very sorry for the employees at such places, having to deal with tourists all day,every day, with little or no training on how to deal with hot,sweaty,flustered,disorientated foriegners who have probably only been in the country for a day or two.

the staff are probably at breaking point and you unfortunately were the one to cop a mouthful through no fault of your own.

farang shoes with thai shoes??? if we let you get away with that one,you'll be hanging your underpants next to your mother in laws knickers on the washing line next. and just think what the neighbours would have to say about that!!

[samran]

I seem to remember asking one of the attendants about the shoe apartheid thing. He seemed to think that it was set up to re-assure farang tourists that they could leave their shoes in a separate place so that they wouldn't be afraid of some "dodgy" locals stealing their shoes. They can also keep their eyes on shoes especially!

Nice idea at the time I guess! But as with many things here in Thailand, the execution of the policy doesn't seem to work too well.

[Pink Mist]

i feel very sorry for the employees at such places, having to deal with tourists all day,every day, with little or no training on how to deal with hot,sweaty,flustered,disorientated foriegners who have probably only been in the country for a day or two.

the staff are probably at breaking point and you unfortunately were the one to cop a mouthful through no fault of your own.

farang shoes with thai shoes??? if we let you get away with that one,you'll be hanging your underpants next to your mother in laws knickers on the washing line next. and just think what the neighbours would have to say about that!!

That would get the tongues wagging all right.

She passed away 20 years ago

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Perhaps lotsa farang have athletes foot ( or is that feet? )

[Up2U]

Haircut in Pattaya ? There are two or three places in the Hollywood car park square - charge 80 baht to all comers. Me - I have had a beard-trimmer for the past seven or eight years - do-it-yourself football hooligan cut.

In Patty - what do you pay for Sawng Thaew (Baht Bus)? My wife pays 5 baht, my six-year-old pays nothing - I pay 10 baht. So what - it takes me all over town at a ridiculously low fee.

Other things - single rose for my wife - 10 baht. Single rose my wife buys for me (rarely) - 5 baht. Valentines day single rose 20 baht irrespective.

Fruit & veg. - same, whoever buys.

Lottery tickets - ditto

The main omplaints seem to be the official government sites, as museums and national parks. Compare to tertiary education in UK - free to UK students, pay if you're a foreigner. (At least, that was the way a few years ago. I am open to correction). National Elf Service - same, same (even if you do not contribute much, as a UK citizen you seem to be able to get treatment). Here the Thais seem to have to pay as well, even if it is only a nominal amount in the boondocks.

[Roger13]

just do like i did today and have done a few times already.

Drive up to the gate of the national park... ask how much.... for my thai wife = 20

for you 200.

You look at hem if they are gansters , and (fake smilingly) ask. You have good business farang lately.

Put the car in reverse and turn back.

If 500 tourists do that every month they'll change the price one day..

B

I had an experience, exactly the same a couple of weeks back, in Khao Lak, maybe it is the same waterfall you mentioned - i also smiled, reversed and drove off - not the money, the principal. I also saw no other cars in the car park, so maybe eventually they will change there ways.

Do you really think that the Guards / Cashier on duty are

going to report this to their superiors? They will probably

tell the story to their peers / friends about the crazy Farang ...

BUT - Will the Minister get to hear about this?

The Parks are Government Run / Owned

- I cannot see these Tantrums having any effect ...

Private owned Hotels - OK they may have a change of

Tactics if they know they are being Targetted.

Customers have a choice and if they are provided

with information from your Web Site of an ALTERNATIVE

maybe they will go to the Hotels / Restaurants that do

not have two different Price Lists / Menus.

Here your Campaign does have an opportunity to have an effect.

Also I imagine that the likes of the 2 Crocodile Farms

within reach of Bangkok and Safari World who are privately owned

might think again - but it might be difficult to get Customers

/ Tourists who WANT to visit such places, to boycott them.

Because there is NOT any alternative choice of such Entertainment.

In any case many Tour Company's include Tickets to these

places in their packages so many tourists are unaware of the Price

differences. Or if they do find out it will be far too late having

pre-paid for the Package.

I visited Nong Nooch Gardens near Pattaya last Sunday

with some Thai friends. The Gardens had a special price

going but I paid B300, my Thai friends B200 - not the

usual rate of mark up - but I was upset that the Sign

had the prices for Thai in Thai numerals - I was surprised

at this because I cannot remember seeing Thai numerals before ...

to me a sure sign that the Management were trying to hide

the difference.

But I cannot imagine 500 Tourists a month paying (Petrol

etc) to travel to The National Park just to make use of their Reverse Gear !!!

Roger

[Mig15]

Double pricing is correct in some cases. I think that is absolutely right that a Thai person who has not much money can get to see their heritage for free. I look on it as a bonus when my TGF gets in free. What I don’t like is the woman selling Thai sweets outside my home charges me 20 baht for the same thing as my girlfriend gets at 10 baht.

So I take my business elsewhere.

[Zendesigner]

as they ask 20 instead of ten i don't care ...it's time's 2

a national park has the nerve to charge times 10 ????

i may not be an economist with fancyfull theories. but i still now when i'm getting ripped of.

If a thai goes to europe he will never be charged a double price then the locals anywhere...ask my wife , she also thinks its disgracefull of her country.

B

[Pink Mist]

Slightly off topic again but I worked out at Ayers rock, a tourist destination in Australia when the motels were at the base of the rock.

They had a Tourist and Locals price stucture for drinks and stuff.

The motel employees were not highly paid and I guess that was the reason.

[MissAnge]

I often find myself getting slightly PO when there are double prices. On a recent trip to safari world i was expected to pay 800baht as well as an additional 200baht for a "jungle cruise" attraction. My thai boyf only needed to pay 390 baht all inclusive. But i just showed them my staff ID card to prove that i work in Thailand and i got in at the Thai rate. The same thing has happened at numerous national parks, everytime ive been exempt from the fee when i show my ID card.

having said that i wasn't so lucky at the pata department store zoo (i try not to admit that i actually wanted to go there), but the ID card didn't work for me there so we just walked away, the 400% mark up they wanted was ridiculous....

[samran]

i may not be an economist with fancyfull theories. but i still now when i'm getting ripped of.

If a thai goes to europe he will never be charged a double price then the locals anywhere...ask my wife , she also thinks its disgracefull of her country.

B

Just a random observation: It seems to be the mantra for people these days to attack what they don't understand, ridicule anything intellectual and tear down something if it not all about me me me (or you you you - depending on one's perspective).

Uninformed gobledegook seems to be how you make your arguments these days.

But back to the topic:

Europe not dual pricing???? You have got to be kidding comrade. Many, many times my wallet was stung on the continent for not having an EU passport. (Or maybe that was just an fanciful economic theory that I came up with?)

But go on then, have a bit of whine (after putting your car in reverse) if that makes you feel better.

.....swings and roundabouts my friend!!!

[huski]

Re: Residents pricing - All you need is a valid work permit or year long non immigrant B-O visa and hotels and airlines will give you the residents discount. Me and my friends have used this many times.

samran, i didn't know this, thats interesting. how much have you noticed in savings for hotels and airline fares? also how have you gone about asking/proving residents discounts over the phone. is this only for booking reservations at the airport or arriving at a hotel with your passport to show your visa.

thanks

[samran]

noticed enough of a difference to make it worthwhile. The best deal I got was a trip to Sri Lanta resort during Songkran for about 35% cheaper than the going rate.

The deals pop up from time to time. By no means are they a regular thing. You just have to keep your eye out, or visit websites of hotels/airlines and see what they have.

As for showing the ID, well I'm a Thai citizen (very lucky I know), but my GF and other mates who have work permits and B visa's, its just a matter of showing the passport wherever you have to pay for the package you are buying. Either at the travel agent or at the hotel reception on check in.

when booking over the phone, if they ask, you just mention you are a resident. The verification comes later..and they are usually very cruisy about it all.

[huski]

thanks for the info samran, appreciate it

The best deal I got was a trip to Sri Lanta resort during Songkran

water guns allowed?

i'm looking foward to this next one, although i'm going to have to wrap up the nokia alittle better this year.

[NedKelly]

Without having read all the posts inthis thread I willadd my bit for what it's worth. I admit to getting cheesed off about the increased charges to places like National Parks and I was around working in the tourism industry when these charges were introduced overnight by the new governor of Nat. Parks at the time. it caused a huge stir among local and overseas agents because they all had contracts lasting over a year, which could not be changed. Imagine being a local operator doing a tour for a group of foreigners - say 38 at a time - and your program includes visits to 2 nationalk parks. This means an extra 15,000 baht in expenses - and you are tied in to the contract !! Shit !!

One time it really hit me with a shock when I paid for my group to go into a Nat Park. 12 people, 2,400 baht. Following was a huge Thai tour bus full of Thai people and the cost for them was around 700 baht. When you sit and think about it, there is no logical explanation other than greed and opportunity. In my experience, I would have to argue that Thai people en-masse cause more environmental damage and overuse syndrome than the small numbers of foreigners that visit some places. What about the improvements to things like toilets......it just does not happen, so where does this extra income go ???

Go to Erawan Waterfall during a long weekend, or to Sai Yok or any of the other waterfalls in the area. You will see crowds of people all crawling over the place. the impact is pretty obvious.

I could understand and cope deal with an increase for foreigners of about say 50 baht compared to locals. But 200 baht is a complete joke and smacks of greed, arrogance and even racism.

I went to see the Pandas at Chiang Mai zoo. Foreigners pay a higher price.......Why ? When the places is funded by the Chinese Government ??? Th elocal price was written in Thai language so foreigners cannot see it. I told the girl at the desk I could read Thai and asked about the different price.....the look of shock on her face was amazing !! But what choice do I have. I paid, saw the smelly little buggers (big deal) and left. Whats more, the Thai people with me were extremely embarrassed that I had to pay more and when I explained about the national parks, they were disgusted that their country should do this.

[chanchao]

Here's a balanced view:

Double pricing is not very wide-spread in non-tourist areas. In tourist areas it's almost understandable where vendors of goods not normally purchased by foreigners see other people charge tourists anything they like for their products or services and get away with it. And then the shoe repair dude does once find a foreigner there at his stall and charges 20 instead of 10.. These cases I hope would not make the database.

However to make a list of big companies or organizations who have policies in place to charge foreigners more I think would be a good thing. I'm under no illusion that this will make them change their ways overnight (or: ever) but at least it will help to make foreign consumers more price conscious, and allow them to skip those venues that blatantly overcharge. In my mind these are mostly theme parks and some hotels and of course national parks. (sigh )

Last but not least, the site also needs to list those places where foreigners actually get a BETTER (or cheaper) deal than Thais!!! There's some examples of that as well! And that's only listing those places where more or less official policies exist that favor foreigners. All those cases where foreigners are genuinely made welcome and receive the best and most hospitable treatment from locals to the best of their ability never gets much mention in relation to this topic of dual pricing, however anyone who cannot see or value this overall great treatment they receive from locals should book their flight out of Thailand today.

I feel deeply indebted for all the hospitality I have received over the years, and no extra charge anywhere could even begin to swing the balance.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Scarlett]

A consumer website promoting fair pricing for all is a wonderful idea. Double pricing does not exist merely with national parks, hotels, and other tourist services and items. Let me point out here how ingrained fleecing the foreigner is in the Thai culture. Such a policy, no matter where else it is practiced on the globe is inexcusable and bad business.

My husband and I are building a house, we are both westerners. We know the approximate market price of building materials. Whenever we buy from a vendor we have never used (and some that we have used), they more often than not jack up the price substantially. 20-50 baht extra may not seem too exorbitant, but when you are purchasing 500 bags of cement or 1000 pieces of rebar it adds up substantially. You would think one could get a discount for purchasing in bulk!

On measured items such as cubic meters of sand or rock they will often attempt to deliver half of the order while charging for the whole amount.

Also, I would like to alert you to another rip off scheme that is a very ingrained practice here and that Thai people tend to be very secretive about. It’s the commission referral. Whether you are looking to purchase a piece of land or a bag of cement, if you ask a Thai friend or neighbor where to buy anything, he will either take you or direct you to a store and later collect a commission (which you of course paid for through a raised price.) We have had our neighbors call many of our vendors that they did not refer us to and attempt to collect such a commission. It’s a racket that often forces us to go from one vendor to another as they monkey with the prices, deliveries, and service.

As an example to you of how costly this can be to expatriates-our neighbor referred us to our building foreman. While our neighbors sit on their asses they are making 200 baht per m2 of our building and adding nothing to the project. Now we agreed to a price with the foreman before we were wise to this sketchy scam, but I'd rather see this money go to the foreman and his crew than our shifty, greedy neighbors. We have calculated that our neighbors added 40,000B to our material costs alone before we wised up to the commission practice and kept our vendors as secretive as possible. We are still paying a premium on the labor expense. When we do locate a supplier that will charge us the market rate for products such as sand, our neighbors will sometimes call and stop our delivery and make some sort of arrangement with that company to charge a higher price to us. They have also tried to directly charge us a road toll for bringing large trucks with deliveries. The neighbors do all this with a friendly smile and the attitude that they are doing us a favor. They suddenly purchased a new motorbike and a computer all the while complaining about their financial problems!

I cannot imagine how anyone could categorize any of these practices as fair and good for Thailand in the long run. Double pricing and fleecing tourists and expatriates stems from a short term mind set. Countless people I know have said they will take their next vacations in other destinations that are more honest and hospitable. Countless expatriates I talk to are moving or considering leaving. This land is now baring what is behind the smile.

[chanchao]

My husband and I are building a house, we are both westerners. We know the approximate market price of building materials. Whenever we buy from a vendor we have never used (and some that we have used), they more often than not jack up the price substantially. 20-50 baht extra may not seem too exorbitant, but when you are purchasing 500 bags of cement or 1000 pieces of rebar it adds up substantially. You would think one could get a discount for purchasing in bulk!

Hmmm.. maybe you shouldn't be building a house in that area or with those neighbours... ;-)

By the way, I too quote a foreign multinational company more than I would a small local company.

[the gentleman]

Spot on Scarlett! It is just not your neighbours either, it is the majority. That is how life is in Thailand and all the other posters arguing the fact have a lot more to learn.

[NedKelly]

Heres a gem in relation to the commission mentioned above........something like 14 years ago, a songthaew driver in Chiang Mai introduced a new tour company to a guesthouse, with the first group from that company to stay at the guesthouse. To this day, the songthaew driver has sliced a commission payment from the guesthouse. Tell me that this is fair practice. It is not. The guesthouse has strruggled over the years and it cannot raise prices to get ahead as the driver willget his slice of that too. So the whol eplace is going into a state of disrepair now as it is not maintained enough.

Why should this driver continue to hold such power over the guesthouse for so long ?? It's a joke !

[markt]

Double pricing and fleecing tourists and expatriates stems from a short term mind set.

They're all waiting for that stupid farang who doesn't question prices.

Even if it means letting other farang customers walk away.

[cdnvic]

They're all waiting for that stupid farang who doesn't question prices.

Exactly, if all forgieners just walked away from exhorbanant prices, then sooner or later money would talk. A little higher I don't mind so much, as I've actually had policies of local/tourist pricing at bars I've managed in Canada and NZ, so as to not have the locals who are regular customers year round get scalped in the tourist season. The tourists rarely complained, and the locals stayed loyal to us when the tourists were gone. Those who didn't have these policies suffered alot during the off season.

I hear all kinds of dumbass excuses from tourists regarding this, "Oh, they're poor and it's not right to argue about price with them!" What a load of crap. People who don't come from societies where haggling over prices is common don't seem to understand that bargining is like a sport, and is expected.

Besides, unless its some rare antique you're purchasing you'll no doubt find the same thing all over the place. I don't think there's a word in Thai that means 'market saturation'

I like the idea of a database of places that DON'T rip off forgieners. Rewarding is always better than punishing, and lets get real... in Thailand it will save you a huge pile of typing, server space, and bandwidth to list those whe don't rip-off

cv

[Zendesigner]

Sure,

i went out to buy a tv last week. small one nothing fancy. since i don't know how long i'm going to be staying here i was wondering to buy a second hand one.

The wife and i went to 4 second hand shops in a row.

A 21 inch second hand would cost always over 5000 bath. So i would ask them "a new one costs 5000 bath, i will have one year garantee, brand new machine you not think this is to much?"

The THE STORY comes "yes but new one no brand sir" SO samsung is no brand or hitachi or philips ??

"not have ready dvd sir " Yes have.....

I ended up buying a new one of course, because they are all idiots in their shops...

they would prefer not to make money and sit there then to think about their shop and customers and try to make some.

For SAMRAN.

After living here for 6 months this is my conclusion......

90 percent of THAIS.

STEAL

LY

CHEAT

Are governed by primitive animalistic laws....

BUT THEY CALL IT BUSINESS...

SORRY to the 10 PERCENT normal and nice ones out there...wich i meat also...

They are mostly a refreshing part of a day...

B

[Kan Win]

I would love to know why?

Perhaps it is for an extra bed in the same room !!!!

[Scarlett]

[Hmmm..  maybe you shouldn't be building a house in that area or with those neighbours... ;-)

By the way, I too quote a foreign multinational company more than I would a small local company.

You are absolutely right. The area is called "Thailand" and the neighbors are called Thais! Such neighbors and vendors exist everywhere...these scams are ingrained throughout this land. Anyone who has dealt with a big project here will understand you can't avoid confronting the swindles, bad service ....its shameful and there is no plausable excuse. If I knew then what I know now... before we moved here, before we invested heavily, before this monkey-business became an every day headache without let-up, we would have rented or moved to a country more favorable to investors/expatriates.

They never tell you what's under the rock when you are visiting the place...its all smiles and nicey-nice. Please don't tell me to like it or leave...we are too heavily invested right now. Selling, and moving to greener pastures, has become a daily topic of conversation for us. The monkey business takes an emotional toll after a while. But I digress off topic here.

The point for this thread is that a web site that would allow expats to report good and bad vendors of many types would be a real asset to the expat community. If it didn't prompt vendors toward fair pricing and services to all, at least it might allow expats to find the few that do. I would love to reward honest businesses with my repeat patronage and money. In turn I would feel more satisfied with life here.

By the way, the shenanigans are also prevelant at the name-brand chains we have used. We must scrutinize every bill, reciept, and change back from a cashier. We must count every supply delivered or loaded on our truck at the store. You can't take honesty for granted here....sad! Shame on Thailand!