Double Pricing

[samran]

Sorry to hear of your plight Scarlett. Are you familiar with the Trade Compeition Act? I can't seem to find it on google at the moment, but it may be a avenue for you if you feel truely ripped off. Check out this link to start with though.

http://www.iccthailand.or.th/News2/trade02_v2.pdf

While it may not be worth your while in bringing on a case forward to the competition council, it may help you in future to wave this law in front of your suppliers faces if the continue to rip you off like that. Then again it may be naive of me to think that may work.

Additionally, please beleive me that while whats happening to you is not right, it happens to Thais as well. Your neighbours are purely bad, Thai or not Thai. Thai people get ripped off all the time too by other Thai's. I have people in my own family who will happily screw over another relative if there was a buck in it for them. You just have to do your best to avoid them.

Good luck.

[Zendesigner]

edit

[Kan Win]

I go to many places as mentioned by some posters, on this Fred, in Thailand, i.e. National Parks, Zoos etc. and I have never had any remorse or qualms in spending my hard earned cash by going there, as I know already what is what and I go there because I want to go there and enjoy the places and take some photo’s and post them on my site www.pbase.com/win13 by promoting Thailand.

So I say to all of you, that if you feel being ““Ripped Off” by Double Pricing”” then don’t go there, and you Kan Win and save your money of another beer or two.

Edited February 9, 2004 by Kan Win

[cdnvic]

Of course you do realize that the day after your database comes out there will be a pirated version out with the author's names removed?

Gotta love this place

cv

[markt]

Thai people get ripped off all the time too by other Thai's. I have people in my own family who will happily screw over another relative if there was a buck in it for them.

How very true.

It makes you wonder if the Rak in Thai Rak Thai means something else entirely.

[chanchao]

I don't say this often or lightly, but I really think if you're that apalled then you should just leave. Flights leaving daily.

OR you're really a green as grass naive person with a 'rip me off' sticker on your forehead who just arrived in the lovely Pattaya area looking to settle down..

[chanchao]

I don't think there's a word in Thai that means 'market saturation'

Market saturation:

สภาวะตลาดอิ่มตัว

(saphaawa) talaad im tua

Just because you don't know and/or the Thais you hang out with don't know doesn't mean there's no word for it.

[From here on not directed at you specifically ]

Then again I'm not surprised. How can anyone ever exprect to be treated equal if you don't even speak the language? Might as well be then next doofus package tourist fresh off the plane with considerably more money than sense.

Come to a foreign country and then whine about being clueless. Clueless to the point of not being able to buy a bag of sand without ending up paying commission.. That's almost the level of taking a tuk-tuk driver to a jewellery shop or massage parlour..

Or even CONSIDERING to buy dodgy appliances from some dude in a second hand shop.. Tesco Lotus anyone?? (Now someone will say Tesco/BigC/Carrefour hypermarkets are a Western invention which of course is true. Also true, looking at their polularity, is that most Thais are also sick and tired of the Chinese uncle in the small-town electronic appliance shop offering no warranty, a payment scam with sky-high interest and no customer service whatsoever.)

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

[Hmmm..  maybe you shouldn't be building a house in that area or with those neighbours... ;-)

You are absolutely right. The area is called "Thailand" and the neighbors are called Thais! Such neighbors and vendors exist everywhere...these scams are ingrained throughout this land.

"Thailand" my arse..! Ko Samui!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your house with the rip-off neighbours is in Ko Samui isn't it?? Somehow I'm not surprised. This island is currently near the absolute rock bottom of the tourist mafia rip-off scale. Good news for you though is that I do think that it will get better, going in the direction of Phuket. Other places still have to go Samui's way but are doing so quite rapidly. (Krabi comes to mind)

I have friends who built houses in many nice (and dare I say it, more "Thai") parts of the country, from Chiang Mai to Surin to Chumpon and they all managed to build lovely houses without getting ripped off.

Is there anyone here who does not consider Samui one of the worst places in Thailand in terms of mafia and short term quick buck rip-off businesses, and where you have little or no security? Pattaya would be a close second.

Everything considered I actually think you're lucky your neighbours are only ripping you off for some money. If the wrong people there decide they want your land for their resort operation then God help you. To a certain degree this can happen anywhere in Thailand, but I think Samui has got to be one of the worst. (And to those who are about to start whining about this relative lawlessness: build your home in Sweden. Much better laws there.)

[**Note: The reason why I consider a place like Ko Samui 'less Thai' is because there are relatively few truly local, 'native' inhabitants there. And many of the actual locals have been marginalized by unscrupulous, mafia like migrants from other places. This typically does not create the most friendly of environments with all the traditional morals and values in place.]

[Zendesigner]

For samran and chanchao,

Maybe you should start to live toghether???

If you get ripped of IT's WRONG

if you get stolen from IT's WRONG

if you get overcharged IT's WRONG

It should not matter which nationality you are or what colour you are IT's WRONG

I'm merely stating the fact that FARANG get ripped of more in fact constantly.

It's not because the Kauw pad is cheap that they are right in doing so.

So both your fancyfull economic theories about swings and rondabouts and your "you can't speak the language theorie" doesn't excuse the fact that IT's WRONG

IT JUST SHOWS THE INNER MORAL AND RESPECT THEY HAVE!!!!!

I can list a lot of countrys where 99 percent of people don't have this, instead of the 9 percent in thailand. The fact that in someway you condone it by making some sort of an excuse for it, tells more about you then about me.

The only thing you can say about me is " you are not nice to them , go back your own country"

Let's hope you dont get trown of your High rise expensive Bangkok Condo balcony by your so called "BEST THAI FRIEND OF FIVE YEARS".

Let's see were your theories come out then?

B

[chanchao]

> if you get overcharged IT's WRONG

> It should not matter which nationality you are or what

> colour you are IT's WRONG

Absolutely. I think I started out by saying that I would support and contribute to a database listing businesses that overcharge.

But then so many people went completely overboard stating pretty much "all Thais are lieing, cheating thieveing bastards" that really made me wonder why they are here. Note that this is the first time in my life I've said this, I'm not the one to just say "well if you don't like it then leave" to anyone who has a complaint about something. (You know when someone says "Man the pavements here are really inconvenient to use for people in a wheelchair" and then someone replies immediately "well if you don't like it then leave.". I don't think that's called for, because we all want the best for Thailand and this definitely means taking note of bad situations and finding ways to improve them. But if someone makes generalizing statements like:

> IT JUST SHOWS THE INNER MORAL AND RESPECT THEY HAVE!!!!!

then I really think that these people should ask themselves if it isn't time to move somewhere where they can find these high inner morals and respect.

> Let's hope you dont get trown of your High rise expensive

> Bangkok Condo balcony by your so called "BEST THAI

> FRIEND OF FIVE YEARS".

And killers too? Man, you need a vacation..

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

.. how does one delete this post.. (Added the previous one twice..)

[Guest IT Manager]

For samran and chanchao,

Maybe you should start to live toghether???

If you get ripped of IT's WRONG

if you get stolen from IT's WRONG

if you get overcharged IT's WRONG

It should not matter which nationality you are or what colour you are IT's WRONG

I'm merely stating the fact that FARANG get ripped of more in fact constantly.

It's not because the Kauw pad is cheap that they are right in doing so.

So both your fancyfull economic theories about swings and rondabouts and your "you can't speak the language theorie" doesn't excuse the fact that IT's WRONG

IT JUST SHOWS THE INNER MORAL AND RESPECT THEY HAVE!!!!!

I can list a lot of countrys where 99 percent of people don't have this, instead of the 9 percent in thailand. The fact that in someway you condone it by making some sort of an excuse for it, tells more about you then about me.

The only thing you can say about me is " you are not nice to them , go back your own country"

Let's hope you dont get trown of your High rise expensive Bangkok Condo balcony by your so called "BEST THAI FRIEND OF FIVE YEARS".

Let's see were your theories come out then?

B

I am in the middle of getting quite tired of this pathetic thread.

News item: IT's never wrong. Thats why I charge the money I do for the job I do.

If you get ripped off it's wrong. Not IT's. Thanks.

Further. I met a customer on Internet. He asked me to make a house for him.

I didn't. I asked my neighbor. He is Thai. I like him and his wife and his yelling screaming "Uncle IT, can we play Internet please?" ("Yes Somchai pf course you can", kids.

I asked how much. He told me. I told the man on Internet. He said cheap as chips. So I ordered some of them as well.

Khun builder "Uncle IT, here is the shopping list.

IT "112 baht for cement OMG.. I can buy it for 109 Baht".

Khun Builder "OK please go get it for me"

IT "You go get it"

Khun Builder "3 baht delivery"

Was I ripped off? No. Do I still like him? Yes!

Did he finish the house? Yes!

Do I like it? Yes!

Would I use him again? Yes...starts another one next week.

Get over yourselves. If you dislike double pricing, don't spend stupid money on stupid things in stupid places, with my friends that you call STUPID. They may not be as well educated as my wife and I. They may not speak the same type of English as me, nor I the same sort of Thai as they do, but they are my friends, and thats that.

[samran]

But then so many people went completely overboard stating pretty much "all Thais are lieing, cheating thieveing bastards" that really made me wonder why they are here.

Totally agree.

People seem to think that if there is a price labled on it, then it is somehow the situation is different. You don't hear foreigners labling the 90% of English in gerneral as liars, cheaters and general rip off merchants because they paid three pounds for an instant coffee out the front of the tower of london.

What gets my goat is that people come to Thailand and find it convenient to blame Thais for what is essentially their own poor lack of judgment, planning or research. They also blame the Thai's when they simply just don't understand something which is taken as common knowledge by everyone else (including many farangs).

I am sick of hearing these unfair critisms again and again. In addition, because there is no effective Thai voice to respond a) " hey wait a minute lets sort this out" or "mate, you are full of **** ", these critisisms continue.

There is a saying or a song with the line:

If you fool me once, then shame on you. If you fool me twice, shame on me.

In respect to a simple things like pricing: I also find it hard to fathom that people can't get around the fact that in this country, you need to barter and negotiate. You need to research what is out there first. It doesn't cost you anything to say "no" and walk away and save yourself the grief.

Personally, have I been ripped of? Yep.

Have I paid 1000 baht for something when I should have paid 200? Yep.

Did I learn my lesson? Mostly.

Will I get ripped off again? Undoubtedly.

When I get ripped next time will it be in a place which is not Thailand? You betcha.

[NedKelly]

Getting ripped off is not the same as having to pay a sign posted fee ten times higher than locals. In Oz the locals have to pay the same as anyone for tourist attractions and it is bloody expensive.

Anyone who has been here long enough will know they have to bargain for a price on somethings......make it so everyone wins and then all are happy. But wherever in the world yougo, if you see a signsaying that foreigners have to pay huge amounts then that is getting a bit much. Imagine if Thai or other tourists went to Australia and had to pay A$150 to get into the Zoo !! What a stir that would cause !!

[cdnvic]

I don't think there's a word in Thai that means 'market saturation'

Market saturation:

สภาวะตลาดอิ่มตัว

(saphaawa) talaad im tua

Just because you don't know and/or the Thais you hang out with don't know doesn't mean there's no word for it.

Hmmmm.. next time I make a joke I'll indicate it clearly in bold type. I'll explain below... typing slowly

In many places you will find a large number of people selling the same narrow range of products. The amount of people selling them is large, yet that doesn't seem to deter more people from entering the market. So it would seem that This next part is a joke > That there is no such word as market saturation in Thailand.

I'll now go back to talking to my peasant friends, even though we cannot understand a word of thai. That last part was just a smart-ass comment

cv

[huski]

Khun builder "Uncle IT, here is the shopping list.

IT "112 baht for cement OMG.. I can buy it for 109 Baht".

Khun Builder "OK please go get it for me"

IT "You go get it"

Khun Builder "3 baht delivery"

Was I ripped off? No. Do I still like him? Yes!

Did he finish the house? Yes!

Do I like it? Yes!

Would I use him again? Yes...starts another one next week.

###### is right, don't get mad about the thai/farang price differences...what if IT made a stupid fuss over a few baht, not worth tarnishing a relationship with a neighbor he likes.

now as for items you buy in a store and will never see the sales person again, think like a thai and try and shop where thais shop. example victory monument marks the price for the mobile phones right there for the thais. i walked in yesterday and bought the phone for the same price as a thai and even made him give me a hands free cord. now be a typical farang and walk into MBK, no prices marked on any phones, and ask and the price will be 500 to 1000 baht more because you are a farang. am i pissed at MBK, no i just understand thais trying to make money as MBK is geared towards farangs and hot college thai chicks with money.

[Bluecat]

Let's take the "problem" the other way round.

Do the foreigners visiting Thailand find it expensive to visit national parks, old monuments or temples,...?

As far as I am concerned, I never heard anybody complaining that the prices they paid were out of the ordinary or higher than in any other country.

The Thai people pay less and so what? I so far also never heard a farang in Thailand complaining that his salary or income was too high and that he wanted to be adjusted down to the level of the average income of the Thai people,...

[PvtDick]

Government places like national parks, museums, Wat Prakaew, etc. are one thing: they are owned by the Thai people and maintained by Thai taxes. I just wish that we foreigners who do pay taxes (myself almost a million baht a year) would get the same preferential price without having to argue for it.

But private businesses discriminating based on nationality is a whole different kettle of fish. Why should people put up with crocodile farms, katoey shows, and other private ventures charging certain nationalities more than others? Would the people who don't mind such policies put up with 7-11 charing farangs twice what they charge Thai people for a can of Coke? Or movie theaters? Or McDonald's? I certainly don't think so, and don't see much difference.

[chanchao]

> Hmmmm.. next time I make a joke I'll indicate it clearly in bold type.

:-) Yup.. but still I couldn't resist to take a whack at it. ;-)

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

Hello.. am I living in the same country as you guys...??

As for MBK.. The big stores (J-Mart, Telewiz, i-Mobile and all) show prices. Say a phone costs 15,900 baht (Sony Ericsson Z600) Then you go to any of the small non-descript shops. They don't have stock, they have to go run out to somewhere and come back with a box that has been opened and other interested buyers have toyed around with. The price they ask for is 15,200. With some negotiation you may get that 200 baht off. Now are you saying that Thais are getting it significantly cheaper???? Note that even at 15,000 I'll buy at J-Mart thankyouverymuch for something that's still in the closed original box.

HINT: If you are determined to whine about not gettign this phone for 15,000 then question your own negotiating skills!! Don't even bother to embark on some sulking boohooo i am farang kind of diatribe. Beside, there are zillions of shops there, and most of them actually want a sale pretty damned bad. It's a buyer's market.

Face it: Where double pricing exists (and it DOES seriously piss me off, make no mistake, read my lips and all) it's always something in the tourist sector, aimed at clueless tourists. I will need some new tires for my car soon, yes this will reaquire some comparing and negotiating, but I have the same fighting chance at a good deal that a Thai has..

> Why should people put up with crocodile farms, katoey shows,

> and other private ventures charging certain nationalities

> more than others?

Quite right, they shouldn't. And if tourists just cared about this a little more then it's conceivable that this crap double pricing will come to an end. I for one DO NOT visit these places, partly for this reason.

> I just wish that we foreigners who do pay taxes (myself

> almost a million baht a year) would get the same preferential

> price without having to argue for it.

Strange. My tax card has never failed to get me into national parks for the same 20 baht Thais pay. And my wit and charm occaisionally gets me in free.

Again, make no mistake, I completely and utterly dislike double pricing. And I WILL argue for 20 baht instead of 40 baht. (Just last month when I went to Haad Sai Kaew which is a pretty nice, pretty remote beach South of Pattaya, sitting on Navy owned land. On weekends they don't allow people to drive to the beach themselves, as it's a pretty narrow, bumpy, dusty road so they have a dude with a pick-up truck driving people down there for 20 baht. (Mind you after seeing the road this is actually worth it. :-) However foreigners pay 40. So I actually go talking to the navy kid and explain that I work and live in Thailand. Now the kid has no clue, he's like 18 or so and completely not empowered to make any kind of decision whatsoever.. he's in the military after all.. so he says.. you know what, go ask the driver. So I go asks the driver and he also doesn't really care and asks in return what the guard at the gate I just talked to said. In the end I went for the Thai price.

SO NO-ONE CAN ACCUSE ME OF NOT BEING TOTALLY ANAL ABOUT DOUBLE PRICING! ;-)

I just think it doesn't happen as much for non-touristy stuff, and can be managed there and everywhere else. Again I already indiacted I will contribute to a site listing businesses that apply double pricing.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[samran]

Hey Chanchao,

Apparently you and I should start living together. Dunno about that, but some people are just born whingers. The problem is that many of them seem to have moved to Thailand.

The thing about Thailand is that there is always a legitmate way around problems. I keep telling people this, but they don't listen. You have shown that as a foreigner it is nearly always possible to get things done on the same terms as a local. And it doesn't matter what race you are either. My Thai born mum living in OZ for 32 years gets ripped off consistently while here on holiday visiting me, while nothing happens to me, the farang looking one who actually lives here.

So I say, let them whinge on this website and others (maybe I should set up a website called www.thaiwhinger.com). Their attitiude makes me kinda happy that they are getting screwd on such a regular basis anyway.

[ovenman]

now as for items you buy in a store and will never see the sales person again, think like a thai and try and shop where thais shop. example victory monument marks the price for the mobile phones right there for the thais. i walked in yesterday and bought the phone for the same price as a thai and even made him give me a hands free cord. now be a typical farang and walk into MBK, no prices marked on any phones, and ask and the price will be 500 to 1000 baht more because you are a farang. am i pissed at MBK, no i just understand thais trying to make money as MBK is geared towards farangs and hot college thai chicks with money.

This type of pricing behavour you describe is not exclusive to MBK and/or Thailand. Let's use Singapore as an example, a destination that is known for shopping and decent prices. Same handphone scenario as you describe. Go to a big seller like Mustafas in Little India and gather marked, competitive prices on the phone models you are interested in. Now go to the MBK-style shops you describe which can be found right outside Mustafas on the streets of Little India or in Sim Lim Square or the like. Ask for prices on the same phones you just surveyed at Mustafas and you'll have all sorts of cheeky prices tried out on you, be told they need to add an X% surcharge if paying by credit card, in short all of the same games you see at MBK. With a bunch of bargaining, you might save a dollar or two off the Mustafas price if your negotiating skills are good. For me, it's not worth the hassle. I'll buy the new phone, in a new box, at the marked price, from the big dealer without all of the pricing games.

As Chanchao points out, change the retailer's names and the same can be done in Thailand.

[PvtDick]

Vendors without fixed prices will try to get the most they can out of whoever their customer might be. Rich-looking Thais get quoted a cheekier price than poorer-looking ones, and tourist-looking people get quoted more than expat-looking people. My Thai spouse is a lousy bargainer and often ends up paying more than I would for the same thing.

This is a completely different class of phenomenon from business which have fixed prices based on race or nationality.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hey Chanchao,

Apparently you and I should start living together. Dunno about that, but some people are just born whingers. The problem is that many of them seem to have moved to Thailand.

The thing about Thailand is that there is always a legitmate way around problems. I keep telling people this, but they don't listen. You have shown that as a foreigner it is nearly always possible to get things done on the same terms as a local. And it doesn't matter what race you are either. My Thai born mum living in OZ for 32 years gets ripped off consistently while here on holiday visiting me, while nothing happens to me, the farang looking one who actually lives here.

So I say, let them whinge on this website and others (maybe I should set up a website called www.thaiwhinger.com). Their attitiude makes me kinda happy that they are getting screwd on such a regular basis anyway.

Much gnashing of teeth and hand wringing over what amounts to 5/8ths of FA seems a bit like overkill to me. Not worth the angst.

[Sunshine]

I can't help feeling a little insulted when I go somewhere with a group of Thai friends and I get singled out to pay 200bht when they all pay 20bht for an entry fee. I no longer feel like part of the group. I didn’t mean to sound like a whinger or anything.

[Bluecat]

I no longer feel like part of the group.

You are not part of the group. You're the MAN, the leader, the one with money,...

[Sunshine]

You are not part of the group. You're the MAN, the leader, the one with money,...

Are you implying that I am not part of the group because I am because I am being used for money or are you trying to say that I foreigner can never be part of a group because of race and culture differences? I have lived here for over five years and I know the difference between friends and users. And yes I am a man and so was everybody else in the group that I was referring to.

[chanchao]

I can't help feeling a little insulted when I go somewhere with a group of Thai friends and I get singled out to pay 200bht when they all pay 20bht for an entry fee.

Yes, me too. If it does come to a site about double pricing then I think a special section on how to dodge the official fee at various national parks is in order. I usually find a way around, but then only after having visited the park. :-) (Note that this would be do dodge the 20 baht fare for me and my party as well as the 20-30 baht for the car.)

Actually, we may feel offended but the Thais in the group may actually feel they lost face a little. It would be a good gesture if they would chip in and split the total, so everyone pays an equal share.............. In the minds of quite a few Thais though, probably a bigger group than the ones who would feel they lost face over overchargnig a friend who happens not to be Thai, I'd say many more don't think of double pricing as all that much of an issue or offense. That's something to work on as well; there is apparently a serious difference of opinion here, where many foreigners are VERY offended at double pricing (as it reeks of Apartheid and all) whereas quite a few Thais would not see it as causing that much offense. Well they ARE causing offense! Racism (or even perceived racism) hits a Westerner about as hard as all those things in the "Dont's" column on TAT brochures about patting heads and pointing feet. No matter where you stand on the double pricing issue, you can only acknowledge that there does indeed exist a serious difference of opinion.

Anyway, back to dodging fares, I completel did not even pay the 20 baht when visiting Ko Samet last time. (I don't mind paying 20 baht, but Samet struck me as a place where actually serious negotiation would be needed to get the Thai price as no doubt many of the backpackers who visit the place complain about it.) Many other parks there are ways to completely dodge the fee. Keep in mind these are mostly huge forested areas that DO include some villages and forest temples and all. There are ways in if you are determined.

And when arrivnig in a group then it's even easier.. Drive through and let one person jump out and go pay the fees. They mostly don't count very seriously and take peoples word for it if they just say "8 people please". Dark film on your car also helps.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I can't help feeling a little insulted when I go somewhere with a group of Thai friends and I get singled out to pay 200bht when they all pay 20bht for an entry fee.

Yes, me too. If it does come to a site about double pricing then I think a special section on how to dodge the official fee at various national parks is in order. I usually find a way around, but then only after having visited the park. :-) (Note that this would be do dodge the 20 baht fare for me and my party as well as the 20-30 baht for the car.)

Actually, we may feel offended but the Thais in the group may actually feel they lost face a little. It would be a good gesture if they would chip in and split the total, so everyone pays an equal share.............. In the minds of quite a few Thais though, probably a bigger group than the ones who would feel they lost face over overchargnig a friend who happens not to be Thai, I'd say many more don't think of double pricing as all that much of an issue or offense. That's something to work on as well; there is apparently a serious difference of opinion here, where many foreigners are VERY offended at double pricing (as it reeks of Apartheid and all) whereas quite a few Thais would not see it as causing that much offense. Well they ARE causing offense! Racism (or even perceived racism) hits a Westerner about as hard as all those things in the "Dont's" column on TAT brochures about patting heads and pointing feet. No matter where you stand on the double pricing issue, you can only acknowledge that there does indeed exist a serious difference of opinion.

Anyway, back to dodging fares, I completel did not even pay the 20 baht when visiting Ko Samet last time. (I don't mind paying 20 baht, but Samet struck me as a place where actually serious negotiation would be needed to get the Thai price as no doubt many of the backpackers who visit the place complain about it.) Many other parks there are ways to completely dodge the fee. Keep in mind these are mostly huge forested areas that DO include some villages and forest temples and all. There are ways in if you are determined.

And when arrivnig in a group then it's even easier.. Drive through and let one person jump out and go pay the fees. They mostly don't count very seriously and take peoples word for it if they just say "8 people please". Dark film on your car also helps.

What a lot of fuss over next to nothing. Get real.

[Bluecat]

Are you implying that I am not part of the group because I am because I am being used for money or are you trying to say that I foreigner can never be part of a group because of race and culture differences? I have lived here for over five years and I know the difference between friends and users. And yes I am a man and so was everybody else in the group that I was referring to.

By respect for you, Sunshine, since you seem to be a very nice and sensitive guy and that you have been in Thailand for more than 5 years, I am not going to reply to this one,...