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New Canon Products

hughden

By hughden
in Photography and the Arts

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markuk Gold Member

markuk

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Well all we need now is for Canon to improve their service, just took my camera to their repair centre to be told it will take two weeks to even tell me whats wrong and then quote me to fix it. I may as well go and buy something else, and with service like that it will be a different brand.

Nordlys Gold Member

Nordlys

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Fotofile say they expect stocks of the 30D in the next 2-3 weeks.

So are you going to replace your 300D for 30D? :o

Did they tell you how much their price will be?

The new EF-S 17 - 55 mm F2.8 IS seems like a nice lens to have for APS-C size sensor dSLR. I think that lens is a good indication that APS-C sensor will stay in pararell with full size sensor for many years to come, against some speculation that it will eventually cease to exist and integrated into full-size.

hughden Gold Member

hughden

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Yes, the 30D is my next camera. The 300D takes great pics; but I enjoy sports photography and the restrictions on AI Servo focus in the 300D is a real nuisance; and having played with a 20D I was keen to upgrade; but decided to wait for the new model. Many are bitching about how little it improves on the 20D; but it will do fine for me. No price yet; but assume similar to 20D or maybe a little cheaper.

The new lens indeed sounds good. I recently got the 10-22mm EFS lens and it is great; so much fun to use and lovely crisp and sharp pictures.

Khutan Platinum Member

Khutan

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<snip>And new 85mm F1.2L lens.<snip>

That is something to wait for. F1.2 is something to dream of a few years before.

astral Star Member

astral

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Anyone got a working link to the new Canon product announcement?

Google only gives me speculation, not information.

Edited by astral
xty Senior Member

xty

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so now can 30D be comparable to D200 seeing the price class is not much different (about $200)? or they are in different class?

hughden Gold Member

hughden

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If you have already invested in glass then it is irrelevant. If you want a DSLR for the first time and looking above the budget models, the Nikon has more features and pixels; but the Canon has better high ISO resolution. Both camps are making loads of noise!

Both are great cameras; if you are starting from scratch and are prepared to pay some more, then the Nikon is the way to go; or pay even more and get the Canon 5D!!

Personally I have some Canon lenses and a 300D and I am going for the 30D as soon as I can get my hands on one.

Nordlys Gold Member

Nordlys

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In the end, I think it comes down to the availability of lenses designed for APS-C size sensor that I would base my decision on, and whether or not there is a lens in the focal length and apperture that fits my need. There just aren't enough of EF-S or AF-S lenses IMO and if there are, often they just aren't fast enough for me - eg. EF-S 17-85mm IS at f/4-5.6 is too dim for a normal, day to day lens for me (but you can argue the same lens at F/2.8 can be too big and heavy for a day to day lens).

I also think it's a rather poor investment buying lenses that can not be shared with film SLR or for that matter full-size and APS-H size sensor dSLR (which is big part of why I bought 5D albeit expensive). But if I have to choose from APS-C sensors I would rather go for 8mp 30D than 10mpx D200. Just read an amagazine review that Nikon D200 without noise reduction feature on at ISO400 performs poorer than 5D at ISO1600. I would not need extra pixels for more noise. Plus recent release of EF-S 17-55 mm F2.8 IS lens would have me inclined toward Canon camp.

If buying dSLR for the first time and starting from the scratch, I would also seriously consider Olympums 4/3 system.

Edited by Nordlys
xty Senior Member

xty

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In the end, I think it comes down to the availability of lenses designed for APS-C size sensor that I would base my decision on, and whether or not there is a lens in the focal length and apperture that fits my need. There just aren't enough of EF-S or AF-S lenses IMO and if there are, often they just aren't fast enough for me - eg. EF-S 17-85mm IS at f/4-5.6 is too dim for a normal, day to day lens for me (but you can argue the same lens at F/2.8 can be too big and heavy for a day to day lens).

I also think it's a rather poor investment buying lenses that can not be shared with film SLR or for that matter full-size and APS-H size sensor dSLR (which is big part of why I bought 5D albeit expensive). But if I have to choose from APS-C sensors I would rather go for 8mp 30D than 10mpx D200. Just read an amagazine review that Nikon D200 without noise reduction feature on at ISO400 performs poorer than 5D at ISO1600. I would not need extra pixels for more noise. Plus recent release of EF-S 17-55 mm F2.8 IS lens would have me inclined toward Canon camp.

If buying dSLR for the first time and starting from the scratch, I would also seriously consider Olympums 4/3 system.

Guys, I enjoy reading your different perspectives on what to consider before investing lots of money on buying camera. Not like the brand war I used to see in many forums.

As I can't afford to buy full frame sensor camera and all fast lenses, I can say that if possible buy non-digital lenses. Fast one is better if you have money, but slower one might do well also. And APS-C sensor camera for beginning. Then when I had the money to buy more professional full-frame sensor camera, I can still reuse the lenses. What do you think?

Nordlys Gold Member

Nordlys

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Not a bad choice at all! But chances are, unless you have fast and expensive lenses, you might replace all your slow, non-L lenses (suppose you'll get Canon) when you replace your camera from APS-C to full-frame. Recently I got rid of Sigma 17-35mm F2.8-4 EX ASPHERICAL HSM and Canon EF28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM (traded them in at fotofile for a Canon L lens) and got myself a new L lens. As you might know full-frame like 1Ds Mk2 is merciless in showing the flaw of your lens and I can say the same is true even for my 5D at less pixels than 1Ds.

Fast lens (or L lens for Canon) usually doesn't just mean more depth of field and faster shutter speed but also more sharpness, more contrast, less vignetting, less ghost and flare, solid build, etc (generally speaking). Flaws of the cheap lenses that would seem tolerable with less pixel cameras are no longer so with unforgiving resolving capability of full-size sensors. For instance, I do have a EF70-200mm F2.8L USM and I just used this lens for the first time a few weeks ago on 5D shooting my wife from a distance in a park. And it turned out none of the 5 - 6 shots I took with this lens at 1/60 sec. with monopod which are usually acceptable with film turned out to be motion-blur free, when viewed at 100% size on PC monitor. So I'm now thinking of getting myself a heavy and solid tripod or perhaps even replacing EF70-200mm F2.8L for an IS (image stabilizer) lens which is 30,000 Baht more expensive. So you see, full-size is expensive but your spending doesn't just end there when you get a full-size.

Another thing to bear in mind is above 350D, D50 (or D70) budget class dSLR is still an expensive shopping for a camera while their product life cycle is so short and don't hold the value very much for a long time. Remember how much D30, D60 were mere 4 years ago and imagine what their values are in the 2nd hand market today. So when you are getting an APS-C size sensor camera with an idea you are replacing it for full-size sensor in future in mind, you are actually losing a lot of money when getting rid of your APS-C and a few steps farther toward reaching a full-size monetarily than you are if you haven't bought APS-C and saved that money for future purchase of full-size, so to speak. This is the reason I waited for a day when full-size price drops down to within my reach (as it happened with 5D but I admit I overreached it) and passed and watched drooling everytime models like D30, D60, 300D, 10D, 350D and 20D were released (but changed B30 - 40K class 2/3 size sensor "pro-sumer" compact every year instead).

But this is just what I think. Had I not been shooting with film SLR for many years and didn't already have the existing lenses, I probably would have settled with 30D if getting dSLR for the first time.

Edited by Nordlys
xty Senior Member

xty

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Not a bad choice at all! But chances are, unless you have fast and expensive lenses, you might replace all your slow, non-L lenses (suppose you'll get Canon) when you replace your camera from APS-C to full-frame. Recently I got rid of Sigma 17-35mm F2.8-4 EX ASPHERICAL HSM and Canon EF28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM (traded them in at fotofile for a Canon L lens) and got myself a new L lens. As you might know full-frame like 1Ds Mk2 is merciless in showing the flaw of your lens and I can say the same is true even for my 5D at less pixels than 1Ds.

What about the quality of cheaper but fast lenses from third party like Sigma (EX) or Tamron? I understand that the 2nd hand price will drop further than the original brand one, but I intend to keep it for long time if possible.

Fast lens (or L lens for Canon) usually doesn't just mean more depth of field and faster shutter speed but also more sharpness, more contrast, less vignetting, less ghost and flare, solid build, etc (generally speaking). Flaws of the cheap lenses that would seem tolerable with less pixel cameras are no longer so with unforgiving resolving capability of full-size sensors.

This answers my "is it really worth it" question (or "doubt") about the difference/advantage of using fast or high quality lenses. But I think it also depends on how big you want the prints (suppose you want to). For regular prints up to A3 size, I think there's not much different between high or regular quality lenses, is there?

For instance, I do have a EF70-200mm F2.8L USM and I just used this lens for the first time a few weeks ago on 5D shooting my wife from a distance in a park. And it turned out none of the 5 - 6 shots I took with this lens at 1/60 sec. with monopod which are usually acceptable with film turned out to be motion-blur free, when viewed at 100% size on PC monitor. So I'm now thinking of getting myself a heavy and solid tripod or perhaps even replacing EF70-200mm F2.8L for an IS (image stabilizer) lens which is 30,000 Baht more expensive. So you see, full-size is expensive but your spending doesn't just end there when you get a full-size.

Wow... slow down a bit! Investing full frame sensor camera... that skips investing APS-C sensor camera. Fast lenses... that skips investing slow lenses. Then stabilized fast lenses... so I guess even we should skip investing unstabilized fast lenses. Oh man... I'd never have a good DSLR systems :o

You are actually losing a lot of money when getting rid of your APS-C and a few steps farther toward reaching a full-size monetarily than you are if you haven't bought APS-C and saved that money for future purchase of full-size, so to speak.

Again... now back to my second question/doubt after the lens one. Do I really need or will ever need a full frame sensor camera? And would this APS-C sensor camera survive? For how long?

Nordlys Gold Member

Nordlys

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What about the quality of cheaper but fast lenses from third party like Sigma (EX) or Tamron? I understand that the 2nd hand price will drop further than the original brand one, but I intend to keep it for long time if possible.

I think Sigma and Tamron (and perhaps Tokina) also make some very good lenses that yields quality images but I can say two of the Sigma lenses I had were absolutely crappy... Also Sigma lenses in Thailand is known to frequently develop clouding and air bubbles in the glues used to attach elements perhaps due to the high temperature/humidity of Thailand, according to fotofile. This has happened to one of my Sigma too and for this reason I could not have fotofile accept it for trade-in (not even for 1,000 Baht offer). Furthermore, this old lens, when I changed my film SLR from Canon EOS5 to newer EOS3, the auto focus no longer worked. Sigma Japan can remedy this by updating the ROM of the lens but Sigma importer in Thailand was clueless as to what to do about it and told me I should change it for a newer lens. Apart from picture quality, I like the very solid build of Canon L lenses albeit heavy.

This answers my "is it really worth it" question (or "doubt") about the difference/advantage of using fast or high quality lenses. But I think it also depends on how big you want the prints (suppose you want to). For regular prints up to A3 size, I think there's not much different between high or regular quality lenses, is there?

I think only you can answer if the expensive lenses are worth your money. But for me, as it turned I got rid of all the third party maker lenses and non-L Canon lenses and now only have L lenses (only three though). To me, the difference is quite clear even at 4 X 6 print. As you know, fast lenses (such as f/2.8 zoom) can produce very nice background/foreground blur while yielding stunning sharpness from maximum aperture. So it's not just about being capable of shooting in the dark, dim conditions.

Wow... slow down a bit! Investing full frame sensor camera... that skips investing APS-C sensor camera. Fast lenses... that skips investing slow lenses. Then stabilized fast lenses... so I guess even we should skip investing unstabilized fast lenses. Oh man... I'd never have a good DSLR systems :o

Ha ha ha. Well, I don't think I am going as far as replacing my flawless EF70-200mm F2.8L for an IS. But the other day I had a chance to inspect the new EF24-105mm F4L IS USM at fotofile and was stunned by its second generation IS's capability to stabilize the image that some say you can go as slow as 1/2 sec. hand held and still can freeze the image. They say this lens at f/4 with IS adds three stops of hand holdability, and I did test this lens with my 5D in the dark TRUE shop in Siam Paragon both on telephoto and wide side, at 1/6 sec. and 1/4 sec. respectively, and both shots turned out completely blurless. I don't think I can achieve the same result using my much brighter EF24-70mm at F2.8 lens at the same shutter speed. Now, IS is the kind of a lens feature you would want for a full-size sensor as with full-size's resolving capability you can see what was hardly noticeable little motion blur very clearly when enlarging the image up to 100% size. But of course, you always have an option of carrying a solid and heavy tripod with you when leaving home with with your full-frame camera. :D

Again... now back to my second question/doubt after the lens one. Do I really need or will ever need a full frame sensor camera? And would this APS-C sensor camera survive? For how long?

Again, only you can tell what equipment you need and whether or not it's worth your money.... I think APS-C standard will stay.... at least for another few years to come. But then I think there's much room for the full-size sensor price to go down as there are only two models in the market today and there's no competition to Canon. In fact, I remember reading somewhere on internet that Canon's revenue last year was boosted by the sales of 5D and its profit supported largely by the sales of dSLR, a market that hasn't been exposed to fierce price competition as seen in the point-and-shoot compact digicam. I think we need more full-frames in Nikon and other camps so that market forces will apply in this segment of the market which will definitely affect the price of full-frame.

Edited by Nordlys
xty Senior Member

xty

Posted
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And there are some interesting news released from ongoing PMA 2006 in Florida... The first Panasonic dSLR (with 4/3 mount) and Leica AG's entry into 4/3 standard lens.

I've known this new 4/3 format and Foveon sensor since the launch of Olympus E1 but didn't pay attention too much. I thought that this was just a new breed of sensor and saw no clear advantage than regular CCD/CMOS sensor.

xty Senior Member

xty

Posted
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Ha ha ha. Well, I don't think I am going as far as replacing my flawless EF70-200mm F2.8L for an IS. But the other day I had a chance to inspect the new EF24-105mm F4L IS USM at fotofile and was stunned by its second generation IS's capability to stabilize the image that some say you can go as slow as 1/2 sec. hand held and still can freeze the image. They say this lens at f/4 with IS adds three stops of hand holdability, and I did test this lens with my 5D in the dark TRUE shop in Siam Paragon both on telephoto and wide side, at 1/6 sec. and 1/4 sec. respectively, and both shots turned out completely blurless. I don't think I can achieve the same result using my much brighter EF24-70mm at F2.8 lens at the same shutter speed. Now, IS is the kind of a lens feature you would want for a full-size sensor as with full-size's resolving capability you can see what was hardly noticeable little motion blur very clearly when enlarging the image up to 100% size. But of course, you always have an option of carrying a solid and heavy tripod with you when leaving home with with your full-frame camera. :o

IS/VR/AS/OS/OIS or whatever the name is, indeed help the photographer to get sharper pics with slower shutter. Even on prosumer class like my KonicaMinolta A2 with its AntiShake.

For this reason (no need to invest expensive stabilized lenses), I could've decided to buy KM 7D (or its successor) if KM didn't shut down the business. Now let's see if Sony will bring this patented technology to their new products.

It's too bad for KM. If they had more good & vary product lines and excellent marketing, they could've beaten Canon/Nikon at this point.

Nordlys Gold Member

Nordlys

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And there are some interesting news released from ongoing PMA 2006 in Florida... The first Panasonic dSLR (with 4/3 mount) and Leica AG's entry into 4/3 standard lens.

I've known this new 4/3 format and Foveon sensor since the launch of Olympus E1 but didn't pay attention too much. I thought that this was just a new breed of sensor and saw no clear advantage than regular CCD/CMOS sensor.

It's not only Olympus advocating 4/3 system and it means more than just sensor size. Did you see today's latest news from dpreview.com? Panasonic 4/3 standard based dSLR and Leica lens with 4/3 mount. Now with this camera you have a freedom to choose from Olympus or Sigma lenses too or you can use Leica lenses on Olympus 4/3 dSLR. With major player like Canon and Nikon you are only bound to use lenses of your own brand or that of third party maker's unless you have a mount adopter but with a limited functionality. I would love to try Leica lens on my 5D!

Also I think some of the Olympus models like E-330 have very unique features that is very much demanded of dSLRs from other camps too but none yet seen from Canon or Nikon camps such as "full-time live view CCD" that allows you to frame with LCD monitor (a feature previously non-existant for dSLR) and "dust reduction system" that removes the dust on sensor surface that might attach when changing lens, all at very reasonable cost to the camera.

Edited by Nordlys
hughden Gold Member

hughden

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I bought the 70-200L and was initially a bit disappointed compared to my 300L IS. I am getting better at using it; but I lose too many shots to camera shake and wish I had "invested" the extra to get the IS; I am wondering how much Fotofile would give me on a trade in (I bought the lens from them).......

The main reason I want to upgrade from my 300D is to have AI servo available in all modes, and to use the faster burst speed. My friend has the 5D and it is beautiful; but it is slower than the 20D/30D in terms of burst speed; and more cash than I could justify given my skill level. I have two S lenses, the kit lens which came with the 300D and the 10-22 which is just great. I am hoping that the 30D will serve me for a few years. Next purchase might be the 17-55 IS lens they have just announced. Then I will have everything nicely covered and will have no excuse not to take some good photos!

Nordlys Gold Member

Nordlys

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Hi hughden,

I bought the 70-200L and was initially a bit disappointed compared to my 300L IS. I am getting better at using it; but I lose too many shots to camera shake and wish I had "invested" the extra to get the IS;

Exactly my thought when I used 5D with EF70-200mm F2.8L.

I am wondering how much Fotofile would give me on a trade in (I bought the lens from them).......

I also bought my EF70-200mm F2.8L USM from fotofile for 47,000 Baht and just had the same guy who sold me this lens quote how much he would take it for a trade-in with IS lens and he gave me 37,000 Baht. Although bought more than three years ago, my lens is still in mint, perfect cosmetic condition. Not a single scratch. So I guess it means it can't go higher than that.

Is your 300mm IS f/2.8? If it is it must have cost you a fortune! What do you shoot with that?

and more cash than I could justify given my skill level.

But the cash will compensate the lack of skill, as it did for me. :o

hughden Gold Member

hughden

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Mine is the comparatively humble 300mm 4L. Still a great lens though. I shoot sports and similar events with it; plus sticking it in people's faces at a great distance so they dont know they are being shot! I have seen and touched a 2.8; but will never own one!

xty Senior Member

xty

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It's not only Olympus advocating 4/3 system and it means more than just sensor size. Did you see today's latest news from dpreview.com? Panasonic 4/3 standard based dSLR and Leica lens with 4/3 mount. Now with this camera you have a freedom to choose from Olympus or Sigma lenses too or you can use Leica lenses on Olympus 4/3 dSLR.

Gee.. I though it was only about sensor size and sensor technology. Didn't know that it covers also common lens mount. Interesting... got to read more. Moreover I saw Olympus E1 in one of the shop in Bangkok for only 28K Baht, about half price than when it was launched a couple of years ago.

What about Foveon advantages over CCD/CMOS?

Also I think some of the Olympus models like E-330 have very unique features that is very much demanded of dSLRs from other camps too but none yet seen from Canon or Nikon camps such as "full-time live view CCD" that allows you to frame with LCD monitor (a feature previously non-existant for dSLR) and "dust reduction system" that removes the dust on sensor surface that might attach when changing lens, all at very reasonable cost to the camera.

Self cleaning sensor mechanism and more weather-proof features have been there since E1. I remember this because an Australian guy in dpreview KonicaMinolta forum upgraded his KM A1 over 20D because of this reason.

Now I'm imagining 4/3 systems with KM integral AntiShake... :o

I bought the 70-200L and was initially a bit disappointed compared to my 300L IS. I am getting better at using it; but I lose too many shots to camera shake and wish I had "invested" the extra to get the IS; I am wondering how much Fotofile would give me on a trade in (I bought the lens from them).......

So now it's not about the L, but the IS which is more important.

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