Another British Woman Raped On Koh Samui

[sriracha john]

sorry to disagree again, but with all your assumptions it's difficult to know what you mean. If there is "no detectable evidence" supporting a rape claim, what "evidence" did they send to Bangkok?

Try the public government hospitals next time you come to Thailand... and you'll see my point that most staff don't speak English. "Ditto" with police. Frankly, by your insistence that all these people are fully capable of speaking English makes me wonder how much you really do get out and about when you do visit Thailand.

They sent samples to Bangkok....if the samples prove anything then they will become evidence. The evidence I am referring to is the results of the initial physical examination. Scratches, bruising etc.... You really are a pedantic fellow.

I apologize if I am requesting some accuracy in your descriptions. After all, it's these same inaccuracies in others' reports that you are so fond of going on about. If you are changing their words, from evidence to samples, that's fine, but if you weren't part of the forensic team, how do you exactly WHAT was sent to Bangkok. Also, I don't recall reading there weren't any scratches or any other physical signs. How do you presume there weren't? Because they weren't mentioned in the report? By your own admission, many things are not included in the reporting. It's just that with you choosing to fill the holes with your interpretation of facts, that's what I find amusing when you said earlier that you deal only with facts. Funny stuff.

I didnt say fully capable of speaking english at all....I get out and about a fair bit....once I was actually speaking to a young bloke in Buriram who was learning English so that he could apply to join the Police force and had conversations with a trainee nurse in english....Just because they dont speak english around you doesnt mean that they dont have at least some basic knowledge of English.

First, I'm glad to hear you can make it to other places like Buriram. With more experience and exposure to other areas of Thailand, you'll come to agree with my point that precious few medical staff and policemen are capable of English. You did, after all, imply in your earlier posts that a doctor should be able to understand the linguistics of a rape exam and that police should be able to understand the intricate wordings of a rape investigation. That, to me, would indicate a fairly developed level of English proficiency.

If they don't speak English in a situation with a foreigner, when WOULD they utilize their English proficiency? When speaking with other Thais? I'm not saying they wouldn't understand "hello, etc.", but to investigate something medically or criminally, a higher level would be necessary, yes?

To conclude,... I would encourage you to continue in your efforts to get out and about more while visiting Thailand in the future. It will give you a clearer perception of the reality here.

[gburns57au]

I apologize if I am requesting some accuracy in your descriptions. After all, it's these same inaccuracies in others' reports that you are so fond of going on about. If you are changing their words, from evidence to samples, that's fine, but if you weren't part of the forensic team, how do you exactly WHAT was sent to Bangkok. Also, I don't recall reading there weren't any scratches or any other physical signs. How do you presume there weren't? Because they weren't mentioned in the report? By your own admission, many things are not included in the reporting. It's just that with you choosing to fill the holes with your interpretation of facts, that's what I find amusing when you said earlier that you deal only with facts. Funny stuff.

First, I'm glad to hear you can make it to other places like Buriram. With more experience and exposure to other areas of Thailand, you'll come to agree with my point that precious few medical staff and policemen are capable of English. You did, after all, imply in your earlier posts that a doctor should be able to understand the linguistics of a rape exam and that police should be able to understand the intricate wordings of a rape investigation. That, to me, would indicate a fairly developed level of English proficiency.

If they don't speak English in a situation with a foreigner, when WOULD they utilize their English proficiency? When speaking with other Thais? I'm not saying they wouldn't understand "hello, etc.", but to investigate something medically or criminally, a higher level would be necessary, yes?

To conclude,... I would encourage you to continue in your efforts to get out and about more while visiting Thailand in the future. It will give you a clearer perception of the reality here.

SJ.....please try to follow this so you will understand what I am saying....I wont use big technical terms OK......

The samples that were sent to Bangkok were as they would be in any investigation...Blood samples, bodily fluids, tissue samples, other samples that require specialised testing. The initial tests done at the hospital would be for, aside from the taking of the above mentioned samples, physical evidence...scratches, excessive genital bruising, bruises on the body, scratches on the body, vaginal damage and other such things that are consistant with forced sex or non consensual sex.

When they say that the tests couldnt confirm that a rape had taken place, they are saying that the physical evidence as noted at the initial exam was not consistant with a rape....The only way this conclusion could be reached is from the absence of such physical evidence. This may not be a reported fact...but it is a fact nonetheless.

So just to recap that for you.....the initial tests carried out at the hospital could not confirm a rape had occurred as there was no physical evidence to support the rape claim. There is no other way that, that assessment could be reached. The samples sent to BKK, if they show otherwise would then become evidence to support the claim of rape....if those samples dont support the claim...There is no case.

It is nice of you to encourage me to continue my exploration of Thailand....but to disappoint you a little bit....I have spent a lot of time in rural Thailand...my travels in Thailand have not been centred around the usual haunts of most tourists and some ex pats. And in those travels I have had the opportunity to visit some of the local hospitals...visiting rellies and friends etc....By some fluke or sheer good fortune, I have always managed to find doctors or nurses that have a reasonable grasp of english, maybe not enough to delve into intricate conversations but enough to get the message across. I did not imply that a doctor would be able to fully explain the intricacies of a rape exam in the same way as a farang doctor could...but enough that he could get his message across and carry out an examination.

As for the police in this case....she was able to understand the Police Chief, so it is obvious he had some grasp of English....and what did she do....slam the door in his face.

Like people in most places where english is not the spoken language....they will speak their own language between themselves...if there is something you need to know or information that they need to gain...they will find someone with whom you can converse.

I hope that answers your questions

It is about now that most people start to get insulting.....will you disappoint me.....

[chuchok]

I haev been in hospitals here, that without my wife to translate, it would have been nigh on impossible to communicate...

[gburns57au]

I haev been in hospitals here, that without my wife to translate, it would have been nigh on impossible to communicate...

But not impossible....

[sriracha john]

I apologize if I am requesting some accuracy in your descriptions. After all, it's these same inaccuracies in others' reports that you are so fond of going on about. If you are changing their words, from evidence to samples, that's fine, but if you weren't part of the forensic team, how do you exactly WHAT was sent to Bangkok. Also, I don't recall reading there weren't any scratches or any other physical signs. How do you presume there weren't? Because they weren't mentioned in the report? By your own admission, many things are not included in the reporting. It's just that with you choosing to fill the holes with your interpretation of facts, that's what I find amusing when you said earlier that you deal only with facts. Funny stuff.

First, I'm glad to hear you can make it to other places like Buriram. With more experience and exposure to other areas of Thailand, you'll come to agree with my point that precious few medical staff and policemen are capable of English. You did, after all, imply in your earlier posts that a doctor should be able to understand the linguistics of a rape exam and that police should be able to understand the intricate wordings of a rape investigation. That, to me, would indicate a fairly developed level of English proficiency.

If they don't speak English in a situation with a foreigner, when WOULD they utilize their English proficiency? When speaking with other Thais? I'm not saying they wouldn't understand "hello, etc.", but to investigate something medically or criminally, a higher level would be necessary, yes?

To conclude,... I would encourage you to continue in your efforts to get out and about more while visiting Thailand in the future. It will give you a clearer perception of the reality here.

SJ.....please try to follow this so you will understand what I am saying....I wont use big technical terms OK......

Most likely because you don't know any?

The samples that were sent to Bangkok were as they would be in any investigation...Blood samples, <-miscellaneous blathering snipped->

When they say that the tests couldnt confirm that a rape had taken place, they are saying that the physical evidence as noted at the initial exam was not consistant with a rape....The only way this conclusion could be reached is from the absence of such physical evidence. This may not be a reported fact...but it is a fact nonetheless.

It's certainly no fact. It's only your speculation. Without results of any of the testing being concluded, it's speculation.

So just to recap that for you.....the initial tests carried out at the hospital could not confirm a rape had occurred as there was no physical evidence to support the rape claim. There is no other way that, that assessment could be reached. The samples sent to BKK, if they show otherwise would then become evidence to support the claim of rape....if those samples dont support the claim...There is no case.

Which then returns us to the logical conclusion that you are implying it's all made up. That she fabricated the rape attack.

It is nice of you to encourage me to continue my exploration of Thailand....but to disappoint you a little bit....I have spent a lot of time in rural Thailand... <-miscellaneous unsupported claims snipped->

As for the police in this case....she was able to understand the Police Chief, so it is obvious he had some grasp of English....and what did she do....slam the door in his face.

And she did that when? Ahhh Yes, how very rude of a rape victim to want a modicum of privacy while she has a gynecological examination performed by the doctor. How dare she not wish to be violated further. Very inconsiderate of her.

Like people in most places where english is not the spoken language....they will speak their own language between themselves...if there is something you need to know or information that they need to gain...they will find someone with whom you can converse.

I hope that answers your questions

It doesn't really answer most questions, but it certainly does confirm most of what I suspected, so it wasn't entirely wasted.

It is about now that most people start to get insulting.....will you disappoint me.....

I'll try not to stoop way down to your level.... it will be difficult, "but not impossible."

I haev been in hospitals here, that without my wife to translate, it would have been nigh on impossible to communicate...

Thats because you've experienced the reality of Thailand, chuchok.

Now, imagine a newbie tourist on her own in the same situation...and the nigh is removed.

Edited February 20, 2006 by sriracha john

[gburns57au]

Most likely because you don't know any?

<-miscellaneous blathering snipped->

<-miscellaneous unsupported claims snipped->

It is about now that most people start to get insulting.....will you disappoint me.....

I'll try not to stoop way down to your level.... it will be difficult, "but not impossible."

I see you intend not to disappoint me.....

[gburns57au]

Which then returns us to the logical conclusion that you are implying it's all made up. That she fabricated the rape attack.

I am saying that her version of the rape is not consistant with information she has provided as it is told in the report.

The inconsistencies in the timelines,

The Thai man seen on CCTV helping her out of the bar, was cleared by her as NOT being an attacker. No other people were seen assisting her out of the bar and certainly not a big black man.

The medical exam could not support her claims as it could not confirm rape had taken place.

The disappearing companion and his lack of concern for his friend who had been missing for at least 4 hours.

Did a rape take place ??....I dont know....If a rape took place, did it happen in the way she has said ??....I doubt it...and so do the coppers.

Edited February 21, 2006 by gburns57au

[gburns57au]

Thats because you've experienced the reality of Thailand, chuchok.

Now, imagine a newbie tourist on her own in the same situation...and the nigh is removed.

In Chuchoks case....he had his wife with him...therefore the hospital staff would have left the translation to her...If he was on his own then I am sure every effort would have been made to find someone who could at least give him a basic understanding of what was wrong with him or what was required. Even if it was the retired School Master down the road....

I dont see where it says she was a newbie....I presume that you are assuming that because of her age???

Edited February 21, 2006 by gburns57au

[chuchok]

Thats because you've experienced the reality of Thailand, chuchok.

Now, imagine a newbie tourist on her own in the same situation...and the nigh is removed.

In Chuchoks case....he had his wife with him...therefore the hospital staff would have left the translation to her...If he was on his own then I am sure every effort would have been made to find someone who could at least give him a basic understanding of what was wrong with him or what was required. Even if it was the retired School Master down the road....

I dont see where it says she was a newbie....I presume that you are assuming that because of her age???

A Doctor actually.I had to get the wife from outside and say to her "This guy is as dense as a piece of concrete, tell him the problem will you please"...Probably a bit rough on my behalf, but he didn't have a clue.

Some people are not the best around medical staff at the best of times.I know people that never question a Doctor..and take everything they say as gospil. sometimes broken English is worse than no English at all.

I agree with SJ.A newbie tourist that has been raped..what type of mental state do you expact them to be in?

[gburns57au]

I agree with SJ.A newbie tourist that has been raped..what type of mental state do you expact them to be in?

The same as any woman that had been raped....

but who said she was a newbie???

The point I was making is that you had your wife with you.....

Edited February 21, 2006 by gburns57au

[zzap]

"The point I was making is that you had your wife with you....."

Yes, and the teenage girl who had just been drugged and raped in a foreign country, had nobody with her.

Give her and us a break, will you, gburns?

Talk about pedantic and stubborn, my goodness...

Edited February 21, 2006 by zzap

[ben01]

"The point I was making is that you had your wife with you....."

Yes, and the teenage girl who had just been drugged and raped in a foreign country, had nobody with her.

Give her and us a break, will you, gburns?

Talk about pedantic and stubborn, my goodness...

here here...cant believe what an arguementative cod piece this gburns is, hope he's gone for a while..........comes down to bloody ozzies again.....now theres a surprise...

[gburns57au]

"The point I was making is that you had your wife with you....."

Yes, and the teenage girl who had just been drugged and raped in a foreign country, had nobody with her.

Give her and us a break, will you, gburns?

Talk about pedantic and stubborn, my goodness...

here here...cant believe what an arguementative cod piece this gburns is, hope he's gone for a while..........comes down to bloody ozzies again.....now theres a surprise...

Well, heres a surprise....I put up a different point of view to those that read a report and take it at face value....I make a post putting up those points of view and suddenly people want to oppose those views and prove their own point of view.....and I am argumentative

Zzap.....you want a break then dont post a reply....you dont even have to read the thread....ok.

Ben....what does this have to do with Aussies....not a thing...so please dont bring a racial value into this. Your first post (I think) in this thread and you start with an insult...that alone speaks volumes..

Edited February 21, 2006 by gburns57au

[zzap]

Yes you are, it's your 'trademark'.

Does it really need pointing out to you in detail over several pages that the girl wasn't entirely at her peak wits when making statements and dealing with officials, not least because of a language issue, asserted a bit of privacy when being examined for rape evidence and she's not the 'same as any other rape victim'?

Of course I don't need to read your posts, but the turns and twists some posters make to continue an argument and be 'right' quite amuses me.

[sriracha john]

The funny thing about Mr. Burns is that the more he goes on and on about something, the more he grates on people's nerves. Seems to get flustered rather easily.... and makes more erroneous statements than his usual pile.

which reminds me,

Ben....what does this have to do with Aussies....not a thing...so please dont bring a racial value into this.

I thought being an Aussie was a nationality, not a race.

At least that's what my white, brown, and black Aussie friends have shown it to mean.

Edited February 21, 2006 by sriracha john

[the gent]

Gosh, strong feelings abound and knickers get in a twist, excusing the metaphor of course.

Getting back to the subject, it may be worthy to remind folk that this story was reported by Andrew Drummond a journalist of inestimable quality and champion of the falang trying to negotiate the labrynth known as Thai justice. Just bear that in mind when assessing credibility.

[ScubaDuc]

On Koh Tao they do, maybe a trend ready for Samui?

What do you mean??? I did my divemaster training in Koh Tao and back then it was the coolest place with only divers and no "butterfly" ladies! What is happening to Thailand, or to the world as a matter of fact? Seems like a couple of cartoons are enough to set half of the globe ablaze

[limbos]

You may want to read an earlier thread about the AC Bar that was going on on this Samui Forum.

Not sure of the title was AC Bar, but it dealt with what was happening in there, a.o. raping of both male and female tourists.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

gburnsau

You are clearly on your own on this one. This is mainly because you insist on claiming your conjecture is fact.

For instance; "When they say that the tests couldnt confirm that a rape had taken place, they are saying that the physical evidence as noted at the initial exam was not consistant with a rape....The only way this conclusion could be reached is from the absence of such physical evidence. This may not be a reported fact...but it is a fact nonetheless."

There are a number of unreported variables. One of which can be that there were fluids present, but no sign of forced entry. Bleeding, for example.

Also the alleged rapist may have the same blood type, so they needed to send samples to Bangkok for a DNA test to better differentiate between them.

Having sex is not the same as being raped. So, maybe they were looking for other evidence, but a girl 'out for the count' doesn't put up much of a fight.

The point is, none of us here knows exactly what happened, but only one of us is promoting conjecture as fact.

[gburns57au]

gburnsau

You are clearly on your own on this one. This is mainly because you insist on claiming your conjecture is fact.

For instance; "When they say that the tests couldnt confirm that a rape had taken place, they are saying that the physical evidence as noted at the initial exam was not consistant with a rape....The only way this conclusion could be reached is from the absence of such physical evidence. This may not be a reported fact...but it is a fact nonetheless."

There are a number of unreported variables. One of which can be that there were fluids present, but no sign of forced entry. Bleeding, for example.

Also the alleged rapist may have the same blood type, so they needed to send samples to Bangkok for a DNA test to better differentiate between them.

Having sex is not the same as being raped. So, maybe they were looking for other evidence, but a girl 'out for the count' doesn't put up much of a fight.

The point is, none of us here knows exactly what happened, but only one of us is promoting conjecture as fact.

Sex is not the same as rape....exactly....as you mentioned the girl was unconscious for the most part of the attack, only coming to during the attack which would mean that little physical evidence of a forced sex or rape would be present. It is the absence of this type of evidence that leads them to say a rape could not be confirmed. So it goes now to the other evidence available....Forensic testing.

The blood isnt taken for blood type testing....in this case it would have been taken to test for amongst other things, a sedative of some kind...such as Rohypnol which is the drug mentioned. It would also be taken to test for the blood alcohol content. A mouth swab (buccal swab) would be taken for DNA purposes. Samples from the vagina would have also been sent for testing to see if there are fluids (semen) present and who contributed to the fluids. This is the standard procedure, and further to this other samples, such as for example skin from under the fingernails, if present would also be sent for DNA testing for matching against any suspects.

I dont see that I am promoting conjecture at all....I am not trying to say what happened, I am not saying she was not raped or that she was raped. ...my point has always been that her allegations have inconsistancies based on the two reports posted at the beginning of the thread. I have simply pointed out the inconsistancies based on those reports. I am sorry if people dont like it because I dont get caught up in the emotional side of the case and start screaming for these guys to be hung drawn and quartered.

Oh and thanks for the polite and well worded post.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I don't think it's because "people dont like it because I dont get caught up in the emotional side of the case".

It's more to do with the FACT that you make a lot of assumptions and then present them as fact.

For instance, you know little or nothing about life on Samui, yet you insist on utilising over-simplistic psychological thinking, to describe what people would do if a friend went missing from a night club.

I don't think it is because your not caught up in the 'emotional side'. I think it's because you know little of the subject of which you write.

Yet you insist that you know better than people who have intimate knowledge of life on Samui.

[sbk]

Seems to me this topic has run its course.

Conjecture, innuendo and flaming abound. If more news regarding this case comes out please feel free to post it.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Seems to me this topic has run its course.

Conjecture, innuendo and flaming abound. If more news regarding this case comes out please feel free to post it.

Good idea.