We Need To Take A Stand Against Corruption

[smedly]

<snip

So what's the answer in such a situation - well if an elected government isn't it then there are only two other options

A ruling Monarchy

Or a Ruling Military

<snip

...and this is where i found out never to interact with you ever again.

no big loss perhaps you can offer us all some enlightened ideas since you seem to think you have all the answers

[smedly]

I would rather p[ay a policeman 200 B on the spot for a minor infraction, than have to haule my ass all the way to the local police station and pay 400 B... small scale corruption such as this is not a problem in my view. It's large scale corruption, the likes of which we see endemic in the banking and financial system in the West which really damages things.

And that is exactly the attitude that makes it impossible for thailand to make a stand against corruption,

How do you suppose they make a stand against corruption when the police hang around on the roadside with criminal intent?

To wipe out corruption you start at the top and work down, the cop taking the odd 200baht here and there is of no significance - it's the government and elected MP's skimming off billions of baht that needs addressed first - the rest will follow

[ChrisY1]

An easy "in" for neighbour countries that are familiar with these "systems"........everything is available....although there is a price!!

[sunshine51]

"We need to take a stand against corruption

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Thai society will deteriorate unless stronger

individual action is taken

It is a shame that while Thailand is organising a campaign

against corruption, the latest survey result by Transparency

International showed the country's ranking has slipped."

Same shit...Different Day.

Edited December 9, 2012 by sunshine51

[TomTao]

The only way to seriously stop corruption is to come up with 100% proof.. undeniable evidence that will stand up in court.

Then have the courts actually prosecute them & hand out severe punishments, including repossession of money or property gained by corruption.

Name them, shame them in public & prevent them from holding a position within government for life if a government official.

If a company director then a life time ban for holding such a position again.

But Thailand will never ever stop corruption because it is an excepted way of life by the majority, from the lowest of levels to the very top.

The young people who are in school today need to be taught about the negative side of corruption so that change can happen as the move out of school and into society................if you can find any Thai teachers to teach the message and who have a life that reflects what they are teaching. The message should be 'do as I say and do' and not 'do as I say, but ignore what I do'.

[khunken]

Corruption will never be completely eradicated - there's still plenty of it in developed countries - but when it is endemic (as it is here) it can be reduced. Blaming newspapers is just shooting the messenger as they, like any whistleblower here, have to contend with the defamation laws which are used by the powerful to silence the ordinary person. Not only that, but too many who speak out are permanently silenced.

I do have a quick fix but Smedly's post is the only one that actually addresses the issue. To it I would add an appointed group to run the country with a mandate to tackle corruption by setting laws and bodies with teeth as well as decriminalising the defamation law. Give them a fixed term to do their job and follow it with an election.

[tingtongfarang]

I would rather p[ay a policeman 200 B on the spot for a minor infraction, than have to haule my ass all the way to the local police station and pay 400 B... small scale corruption such as this is not a problem in my view. It's large scale corruption, the likes of which we see endemic in the banking and financial system in the West which really damages things.

And that is exactly the attitude that makes it impossible for thailand to make a stand against corruption,

How do you suppose they make a stand against corruption when the police hang around on the roadside with criminal intent?

To wipe out corruption you start at the top and work down, the cop taking the odd 200baht here and there is of no significance - it's the government and elected MP's skimming off billions of baht that needs addressed first - the rest will follow

And to take down the ones from the top it would require an uncorrupted police force and justice system, Both Hk and SG had similar or even worse problems and were in the most successful but first had to almost replace the police force...they realised police reform was,nt an option as by nature a corrupt police force had attracted mostly the criminal elements. Edited December 9, 2012 by tingtongfarang

[smedly]

Corruption will never be completely eradicated - there's still plenty of it in developed countries - but when it is endemic (as it is here) it can be reduced. Blaming newspapers is just shooting the messenger as they, like any whistleblower here, have to contend with the defamation laws which are used by the powerful to silence the ordinary person. Not only that, but too many who speak out are permanently silenced.

I do have a quick fix but Smedly's post is the only one that actually addresses the issue. To it I would add an appointed group to run the country with a mandate to tackle corruption by setting laws and bodies with teeth as well as decriminalising the defamation law. Give them a fixed term to do their job and follow it with an election.

yes I agree with everything you say the only problem (which I tried to point out) is that to do as we both suggest will require intervention by a none political body that has the clout to oust the sitting government and pospone all political activity until it has completed the task, there is no other solution unless some sort of political party rises to the fore with such intentions and gains the trust and support of the Thai people - a highly unlikely senario

[smedly]

I would rather p[ay a policeman 200 B on the spot for a minor infraction, than have to haule my ass all the way to the local police station and pay 400 B... small scale corruption such as this is not a problem in my view. It's large scale corruption, the likes of which we see endemic in the banking and financial system in the West which really damages things.

And that is exactly the attitude that makes it impossible for thailand to make a stand against corruption,

How do you suppose they make a stand against corruption when the police hang around on the roadside with criminal intent?

To wipe out corruption you start at the top and work down, the cop taking the odd 200baht here and there is of no significance - it's the government and elected MP's skimming off billions of baht that needs addressed first - the rest will follow

And to take down the ones from the top it would require an uncorrupted police force and justice system, Both Hk and SG had similar or even worse problems and were in the most successful but first had to almost replace the police force...they realised police reform was,nt an option as by nature a corrupt police force had attracted mostly the criminal elements.

you still need a body in charge that has the will to wipe out corruption from top to bottom, that in my opinion excludes all political parties in Thailand past and present

[Nip]

The only way to seriously stop corruption is to come up with 100% proof.. undeniable evidence that will stand up in court.

Then have the courts actually prosecute them & hand out severe punishments, including repossession of money or property gained by corruption.

Name them, shame them in public & prevent them from holding a position within government for life if a government official.

If a company director then a life time ban for holding such a position again.

But Thailand will never ever stop corruption because it is an excepted way of life by the majority, from the lowest of levels to the very top.

Last week in a Thai court I faced the final hurdle foreigners must clear in seeking justice in a legal system that is blatantly flawed, racist and corrupt. I herein refer to the judiciary. Prior to actually getting to court I had to battle with corrupt police men prosecutors and lawyers who blocked my every move.. My lawyer had indisputable evidence of corruption against me regarding illegal money lending, death threats, the counterfeiting of my signature to transfer my company into the names of third parties even a criminal conviction registered a month previously on the same matter against the criminals involved in this civil case... What happened? The judge without explanation simply refused to accept any damning evidence, acknowledge the criminal case conviction, allow my lawyer to question the defendants or even allow him question witnesses who would affirm the defendants guilt.... Bottom line.... I lost... Because the judge refused to enter the facts into evidence... What recourse is there other than the appeal court? Everyone who has bought or intends to invest in Thailand should know the hidden pitfalls if they should find themselves in a conflict over property ownership that the judiciary considers foreigners holding leases and companies owning Thai property to be attempting to circumvent Thai law... When I was in the witness box the judge actually made a joke about my predicament...

[Thait Spot]

...and this is where i found out never to interact with you ever again.

Isn't that post oxymoronic?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

[chainarong]

I would rather pay a policeman 200 B on the spot for a minor infraction, than have to haul my ass all the way to the local police station and pay 400 B... small scale corruption such as this is not a problem in my view. It's large scale corruption, the likes of which we see endemic in the banking and financial system in the West which really damages things.

Whats wrong with an on the spot fine and a receipt issued, not placed in the pocket as usual.

[chainarong]

And pigs might fly.

[smedly]

The only way to seriously stop corruption is to come up with 100% proof.. undeniable evidence that will stand up in court.

Then have the courts actually prosecute them & hand out severe punishments, including repossession of money or property gained by corruption.

Name them, shame them in public & prevent them from holding a position within government for life if a government official.

If a company director then a life time ban for holding such a position again.

But Thailand will never ever stop corruption because it is an excepted way of life by the majority, from the lowest of levels to the very top.

Last week in a Thai court I faced the final hurdle foreigners must clear in seeking justice in a legal system that is blatantly flawed, racist and corrupt. I herein refer to the judiciary. Prior to actually getting to court I had to battle with corrupt police men prosecutors and lawyers who blocked my every move.. My lawyer had indisputable evidence of corruption against me regarding illegal money lending, death threats, the counterfeiting of my signature to transfer my company into the names of third parties even a criminal conviction registered a month previously on the same matter against the criminals involved in this civil case... What happened? The judge without explanation simply refused to accept any damning evidence, acknowledge the criminal case conviction, allow my lawyer to question the defendants or even allow him question witnesses who would affirm the defendants guilt.... Bottom line.... I lost... Because the judge refused to enter the facts into evidence... What recourse is there other than the appeal court? Everyone who has bought or intends to invest in Thailand should know the hidden pitfalls if they should find themselves in a conflict over property ownership that the judiciary considers foreigners holding leases and companies owning Thai property to be attempting to circumvent Thai law... When I was in the witness box the judge actually made a joke about my predicament...

doesn't surprise me mate and I feel your pain, that is why I own nothing in Thailand apart from my transport

[kevvy]

TIT and has been for hundreds of years it will never change ..

[Johpa]

I wrote about this before on TV, basically there is no elected government (or extremely unlikely) that will take any realistic action against corruption simply because there is so much money being corrupted by these very people - so what alternative is there

So what's the answer in such a situation - well if an elected government isn't it then there are only two other options

A ruling Monarchy

Or a Ruling Military

Both the above with the mandate to put in place a solid infrastructure to eventually put in place an elected government that is tethered to a solid constitution that protects against corruption - upholds the law - sets in place independant agencies that have far reaching powers etc etc

The main point I'm making is that no elected government will ever change things so something radical needs to happen.

In the US we have an elected government that is controlled and dominated by a corporate oligarchy that uses "regulatory capture", a legalized form of corruption, and thus even with elections and with a veneer of democracy one can still end up with the current trending modern result which is a variation on fascism, which has neither military rule nor a monarchy. So even with an "elected" government one can still need something radical to happen to improve "things" for the vast majority of citizens.

I also casually note a relatively high correlation between Transparency International's list and the GINI index

[wayned]

BANGKOK: -- Thai society will deteriorate unless stronger

individual action is taken

The problem is Thai Society and their values.

The values of Thai society are a direct opposite of those required to effect change.

• They measure the value of people not by their personal attributes or goodness, but by the amount of money that they have.
  

• Thai’s don’t like to disagree for the fear of offending. They will agree only to relieve themselves of the immediate problem of responding honestly. They will lie for fear of offending.
  

• They don’t like to risk anything that doesn’t give immediate results.
  

• Thai people do not like organization or planning.
  

• They like an easy life, not one which takes effort or real doing.
  

• Thai’s do not like doing things for the group but rather do things for self and the satisfaction of self.
  

• A Thai person will not allow anyone to look down on him. He does not want to suffer loss of face in society.
  

• Anything that can be done tomorrow, next week or next month will never be done today.
  

• Thai people are naturally curious about the affairs of others. They’re noisy.
  

• Thai’s forgive and forget too easy, Mai Pen Rai
  

I’ve heard many say that Thai’s are just too lazy to effect change. But it’s not that easy. They lack all of the necessary traits and values necessary to effect cahnge and fight corruption. How do you change a society and their inbred way of life?

They would rather “get on the bus” than try to change its direction or stop it.

[ChrisY1]

Thailand needs an independent ministry of corruption so the politicians and poo yais can be warned to cover their tracks and corruption will subsequently disappear.

Alternatively the resplendent Chewit could be tasked with the job.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

There are no "Independant" agencies in Thailand any longer...if ever there were such things.....all agencies that exist now, the so-called "Watchdogs" of whatever.....all lend themselves to move in directions "as required".....they're corruptible!!

[MESmith]

Public executions of corrupt public officials is the answer. It wont happen,

[LuckyLew]

Until the people of Thailand stand up and demand change, things will stay same same ..

The people of Thailand would need to have their own Arab Spring ... start a revolution

and demand change ... force changes

Unfortunately in Thailand too many poeple think some guy in Dubai is the best of the best

Until the people of Thailand rise up against corruption it will go on and on and on.

The only other way is if the corrupt people all decide to stop stealing from the coffers ... 555

[Thai at Heart]

until someone dare to explain that everyone pays for one persons corruption, it will continue.

[Geekfreaklover]

Corruption is not a small chink in the chain here. It is the chain.

The moment they (whoever they are) 'take a stand' against it they realize its like taking a piss in their living room. It makes them look untidy and they will have to clean it up.

The way to move forward is too look at the caste system, eduction, wealth distribution....

Won't happen in my lifetime...

Of course nobody will take a stand. The little man bows down to the big man. Those in power have an invested interest in the system not changing.... Those that don't matter suck up to the big man in the hope that they will have a better chance in the next life. A democratic nation of spineless apologists ducking their heads at supposed higher caste.

People like this get the government they deserve,

[sunshine51]

BANGKOK: -- Thai society will deteriorate unless stronger

individual action is taken

The problem is Thai Society and their values.

The values of Thai society are a direct opposite of those required to effect change.

• They measure the value of people not by their personal attributes or goodness, but by the amount of money that they have.
  

• Thai’s don’t like to disagree for the fear of offending. They will agree only to relieve themselves of the immediate problem of responding honestly. They will lie for fear of offending.
  

• They don’t like to risk anything that doesn’t give immediate results.
  

• Thai people do not like organization or planning.
  

• They like an easy life, not one which takes effort or real doing.
  

• Thai’s do not like doing things for the group but rather do things for self and the satisfaction of self.
  

• A Thai person will not allow anyone to look down on him. He does not want to suffer loss of face in society.
  

• Anything that can be done tomorrow, next week or next month will never be done today.
  

• Thai people are naturally curious about the affairs of others. They’re noisy.
  

• Thai’s forgive and forget too easy, Mai Pen Rai
  

I’ve heard many say that Thai’s are just too lazy to effect change. But it’s not that easy. They lack all of the necessary traits and values necessary to effect cahnge and fight corruption. How do you change a society and their inbred way of life?

They would rather “get on the bus” than try to change its direction or stop it.

That's why I said...Same Shit...Different Day.

[noitom]

The only way to seriously stop corruption is to come up with 100% proof.. undeniable evidence that will stand up in court.

Then have the courts actually prosecute them & hand out severe punishments, including repossession of money or property gained by corruption.

Name them, shame them in public & prevent them from holding a position within government for life if a government official.

If a company director then a life time ban for holding such a position again.

But Thailand will never ever stop corruption because it is an excepted way of life by the majority, from the lowest of levels to the very top.

Last week in a Thai court I faced the final hurdle foreigners must clear in seeking justice in a legal system that is blatantly flawed, racist and corrupt. I herein refer to the judiciary. Prior to actually getting to court I had to battle with corrupt police men prosecutors and lawyers who blocked my every move.. My lawyer had indisputable evidence of corruption against me regarding illegal money lending, death threats, the counterfeiting of my signature to transfer my company into the names of third parties even a criminal conviction registered a month previously on the same matter against the criminals involved in this civil case... What happened? The judge without explanation simply refused to accept any damning evidence, acknowledge the criminal case conviction, allow my lawyer to question the defendants or even allow him question witnesses who would affirm the defendants guilt.... Bottom line.... I lost... Because the judge refused to enter the facts into evidence... What recourse is there other than the appeal court? Everyone who has bought or intends to invest in Thailand should know the hidden pitfalls if they should find themselves in a conflict over property ownership that the judiciary considers foreigners holding leases and companies owning Thai property to be attempting to circumvent Thai law... When I was in the witness box the judge actually made a joke about my predicament...

It's an arbitrary and capricious system.

[noitom]

Corruption will never be completely eradicated - there's still plenty of it in developed countries - but when it is endemic (as it is here) it can be reduced. Blaming newspapers is just shooting the messenger as they, like any whistleblower here, have to contend with the defamation laws which are used by the powerful to silence the ordinary person. Not only that, but too many who speak out are permanently silenced.

I do have a quick fix but Smedly's post is the only one that actually addresses the issue. To it I would add an appointed group to run the country with a mandate to tackle corruption by setting laws and bodies with teeth as well as decriminalising the defamation law. Give them a fixed term to do their job and follow it with an election.

Apologizing for the newspapers "trapped" in the defamation of character laws is turning your back on the issue. It is up to the newspapers to find a way around this through investigative truth. Truth is the defense against defamation and slander - truth - that is a newspaper's drumbeat.

[Baloo22]

Corruption will never be completely eradicated - there's still plenty of it in developed countries - but when it is endemic (as it is here) it can be reduced. Blaming newspapers is just shooting the messenger as they, like any whistleblower here, have to contend with the defamation laws which are used by the powerful to silence the ordinary person. Not only that, but too many who speak out are permanently silenced.

I do have a quick fix but Smedly's post is the only one that actually addresses the issue. To it I would add an appointed group to run the country with a mandate to tackle corruption by setting laws and bodies with teeth as well as decriminalising the defamation law. Give them a fixed term to do their job and follow it with an election.

Apologizing for the newspapers "trapped" in the defamation of character laws is turning your back on the issue. It is up to the newspapers to find a way around this through investigative truth. Truth is the defense against defamation and slander - truth - that is a newspaper's drumbeat.

"Apologizing for the newspapers"?? OK!

Are you volunteering to go to jail when you try your "truth is the defense" strategy? Are you volunteering to get shot when you foul up some big-wig's land scheme? It's easy to sit on a message board and say what reporters in Thailand should be doing. Not so easy to suffer the consequences from the corrupt police, corrupt courts, and hired thugs.

[hellodolly]

as long as they keep the majority of thai people uneducated it will always be same same,to start at the very bottom of a never ending ladder,by the time they get half way up the rungs start falling off so it goes back to where it begins.

Well I do agree with your general opinion. The one thing I would like to know is when they take these polls do they tell the people of the amount of money involved. All these poor people with little or mo education do not think in terms of Millions when you say bribe to them. They think of as you say what benefits them like give a cop 200 baht instead of paying a 400 baht fine.

Also do they approve of it or just accept it with the attitude what can I do about it. It has always been this way.

It would be nice to have a real newspaper with a real reporter write an in depth report on the acceptability as against the approve of attitude.

[poanoi]

THERE is actually an anti corruption phone number, I've forgoten it now but I once called it and the lady that answered the phone said there is no one here to do anything about any corruption, or any compiant you have, it's just for show, at first I could'nt believe it but then after a moment i just came to my sences and although really disapionted i just thought ahhh no suprice i guess TIT.

IT has to start somewhere, so why not at the top and the bottom and work it's way through the social fabric until it is the norm.

Where do i report if i catch a police with corruption ?

[hellodolly]

You cannot change the Thai system without first establishing basic freedoms and right. Equality before the law, no preferential dispositions and adjudication, enforcement of law equally, freedom of speech, and investigative journalism. The newspaper writes these psuedo solicitous editorials every now and then without any investigative effort or relentless follow up. No one takes the newspaper seriously, how could these nonsensical occasional editorials ever have any impact on corruption?

These hapless editorials do no service to Thais or Thailand and certainly don't have any effect of reducing corruption. If anything, they serve to demonstrate how ineffective they are in pressing forward any real challenge or investigation. The corruption offenders in all levels of society take these editorials as an example of complacency and inaction and they act as a catalyst to encourage more corruption. When will the newspaper wake up?

Thats a lot of things to fix up. They will need to put the minister for everything ( Chalerm) onto it, and then in 90 days it can all move forward.

Actually with Chalerm in charge it will all be cleaned up in 90 days after he doesn't need his ear medicine.

[Nip]

The only way to seriously stop corruption is to come up with 100% proof.. undeniable evidence that will stand up in court.

Then have the courts actually prosecute them & hand out severe punishments, including repossession of money or property gained by corruption.

Name them, shame them in public & prevent them from holding a position within government for life if a government official.

If a company director then a life time ban for holding such a position again.

But Thailand will never ever stop corruption because it is an excepted way of life by the majority, from the lowest of levels to the very top.

Last week in a Thai court I faced the final hurdle foreigners must clear in seeking justice in a legal system that is blatantly flawed, racist and corrupt. I herein refer to the judiciary. Prior to actually getting to court I had to battle with corrupt police men prosecutors and lawyers who blocked my every move.. My lawyer had indisputable evidence of corruption against me regarding illegal money lending, death threats, the counterfeiting of my signature to transfer my company into the names of third parties even a criminal conviction registered a month previously on the same matter against the criminals involved in this civil case... What happened? The judge without explanation simply refused to accept any damning evidence, acknowledge the criminal case conviction, allow my lawyer to question the defendants or even allow him question witnesses who would affirm the defendants guilt.... Bottom line.... I lost... Because the judge refused to enter the facts into evidence... What recourse is there other than the appeal court? Everyone who has bought or intends to invest in Thailand should know the hidden pitfalls if they should find themselves in a conflict over property ownership that the judiciary considers foreigners holding leases and companies owning Thai property to be attempting to circumvent Thai law... When I was in the witness box the judge actually made a joke about my predicament...

It's an arbitrary and capricious system.

Exactly!