Rama 9 -- The Kawasaki Service Gold Standard?

[TongueThaied]

Well I was torn whether to post this or not, but here goes. Rama 9 always seems to get super praise from everybody. It seems to be the place to go if you want you bike serviced and done right -- to spec. I have tried other shops but have always been disappointed.

For example, when I purchased my ER, I was taking it to the shop for service to keep the warranty good. Like an idiot, I would go sit in the lounge while they were working thinking they were following procedure. They never lubed the cables. It got to the point where the clutch was hard to squeeze and I check the cable -- bone dry. The next time I watched them. They never used a torque wrench and did not use grease or thread-lock as indicated in the manual, and never even looked at the cables. If I wanted it done right, I had to stand over the "tech" and make him follow the procedures, including using the torque wrench and thread-lock I brought with me. So I started doing all my own work. To hell with it. If you want it right, do it yourself.

I was coming up on 42,000 km and it was time for a valve clearance inspection. The thing is, the ER uses shims for valve adjustment. There are 4 intake valves and 4 exhaust valves. I do not live close to a shop to run for parts while working -- I need to be prepared in advance. To be prepared, one would have to have 4 complete sets of shims. That would cover the circumstance where, say, all four exhaust valves needed the same shim for proper adjustment. One complete sets costs 1,568 baht, so four would set me back 6,344 baht. Considering this job comes around only every 42K km, I made an appointment and planned a long ride down to the famous Rama 9 -- the Gold Standard in Thai motorcycle service. When I telephoned for an appointment, they first tried to convince me that I did not need a valve adjustment because it is not required until 42,000 km. I finally convinced them that I did actually have 42,000. Next I asked them if they had a Michelin Pilot Road rear tire (I had my wife speak to them while I listened). She asked perfectly and waited five minutes while the guy checked stock. They had it. Good,I said, I want it. I got my appointment.

The big day came and I rode off to BKK. The folks at Rama 9 were great, as in every Kawasaki shop I have visited. But I was not there to be treated like a king; I wanted my bike properly serviced. I got there the night before, planning to leave the bike overnight, because the valve check MUST be done with the engine cold. I cleared this with them over the phone before I came. But when I got there, they told me I could NOT leave it. They could not seem to comprehend that I could NOT ride the bike in for a valve inspection the next morning because, after BKK traffic, it would be super heated I had to smile, beg, grovel and cajole for 20 minutes before they finally said I could leave it.

I got back to the shop the next morning before they opened. I wanted to be darn sure everything was done right and planned to witness the work. The work order I signed was for a valve clearance check and adjustment (if necessary), adjust and lubricate all cables, change the air filter, check the steering play, lubricate the stem bearing and chassis parts and change the rear tire (check and lube the wheel bearing). I specifically told them NOT to change the oil or filter and that was NOT on the work order. I also noticed that the work order did not specify "Michelin" for the rear tire and I asked about this. They said they never stock Michelin and were going to put on a POS Dunlop. What part of "Michelin" with my (educated) wife's proper Thai pronunciation is so hard to understand? I smiled and told them mai bpen rai on the tire. I sure am glad I asked. I could NOT have accepted a Dunlop.

They would NOT let me into the work area and no amount of smiling, groveling or begging got them to relent, so off to the lounge I went. Soon somebody came and told me the spark plug stick coils were "loose" and needed to be replaced. They were tight the last time I changed the plugs, and I had noticed no misfiring and my fuel economy was superb. But I was not allowed to make my own inspection, and what do I know anyway(?),so I told them to go ahead (4,426 baht). The whole job took some six hours. I cannot imagine how it could take so long as I had an appointment, arrived before they opened and was at the head of the queue.

I got the bill. They changed the oil, using fully synthetic Shell - I hate Shell, cost, 600 baht. I just smiled and paid, never said a thing. When I rode off, the first thing I noticed was that the clutch cable had not been adjusted. No big deal, but it probably meant it had not been lubed either. The throttle cable, which was functioning perfectly when I arrived was screwed up. It worked, but was out of adjustment and the cable was slipping off the nylon roller in the grip on deceleration.

When I got home I adjusted and lubed both cables; they now function perfectly. They had not lubed the cables. I have no confidence that they checked check the steering play, lubricated the stem bearing or chassis parts. They said all the valves were withing spec and gave me in writing what they measured. I just hope they properly inspected the valves. Had I been allowed in the shop, I would have taken the gauge and checked them myself.

As it was three of my exhaust valves (the ones that burn) were right at minimum spec. The acceptable spec for exhaust valves is 0.22-0.31 mm. Three of my exhaust valves were at 0.22 mm, so, of course, they did not adjust them. Rather than let it go another 42K km and risk burning one of them, I would have opened them up a little. Did they ask me what I thought about it? But what the hell could I do now? It's two in the afternoon, the bike's all put back together, and the tech's taken taken it for a spin heating up the engine.

And there you go, with three exhaust valves at the same spec, I would have needed three of those four shim sets. As it is, going by the specs Rama measured, I'll buy some shims that are close to what I should need and do another valve inspection myself in another 12K km or so. It is simply not worth risking burned valves.

All in all, I was pretty f'ing disappointed with what was supposed to be the gold standard in Thailand motorcycle service. Ha, ha, ha, it IS the gold standard! As good as it gets.

I am building a shop soon. Life will be better when I have a decent place to work.

Am I alone on this? I rode all over the US and Canada and the BMW shops everywhere were absolutely outstanding. Is it too much to ask of an authorized dealer to have competent and factory trained techs? What are the rest of you doing? Do you just have blind faith in the shop and everything has worked out, do you do all your own work, what?

I do want to reiterate that the personnel with whom I had contact were delightful. Everybody was polite, smiling, etc. But again . . .

Edited December 10, 2012 by TongueThaied

[mania]

As it is, going by the specs Rama measured, I'll buy some shims that are close to what I should need and do another valve inspection myself in another 12K km or so.

This is what I was thinking.

Since your good at your own wrenching &

like to do it ( I am the same way )

You did not really need to consider buying 4 full sets of shims.

Instead you could check your clearances while engine is cold.

Note what you need to get into spec & buy just those shims no?

Or do they only sell sets here?

anyway good that your able to check the work.

[Gregory Morozov]

Thanks for posting, you are definitely not alone. I do myself everything I can on my ER-6F (out of warranty now). But I do not have the equipment to do the throttle sync...

[karlos]

Exactly my thoughts too!!

If I had the money i would do what i keep telling my girlfriend i want to do.... Open my own Garage for big bikes.

Rama 9 is the only place i can take my bike to for it's valve clearance check (2000km to go) and i'm worried they will cock it up.

My local dealership haven't lubricated any cables or pivot points on my bike even when i demanded it be done on the bike's 24,000km service......nothing....

I asked them to look into the bike's thirsty appetite....... once the service was complete, they just looked at me and told me they would ask the mechanic if there was any fault with the ecu, or O2 sensor then they would phone me later............ i'm still waiting....

Someone has to open a shop that can take care of us, there's plenty of customers waiting.....

[cbrer]

The incompetence and attitude of Thai mechanics are both utterly shocking, frustrating, and dam_n right insulting to the paying customer. And an insult to whatever company badge they have on their shirt.

Like almost everything else, the ignorance, arrogance, and sheer stupidity prevails over basic competence and work ethic.

Of course when you point out a blatant fault in their opinion, like I did with a Honda mechanic in a dealership on Phahonyothin, they then go apeshit.

There is no helping them.

Deal with the locals as little as possible if you're doing anything of worth. And that goes for everything, not just bikes.

Edited December 10, 2012 by cbrer

[wantan]

My own experience: The more you plan such thing, the more you will be disappointed at the end. We are in Thailand and Kawasaki is not Bentley (only a guess that the service there is better).

I try to do everything on my own. I am lucky that my biggest bike is a CBR150, so much easier for me at the moment. I not even let them do an oil change. So i have no warranty on my 6 month old CBR150. But i feel better like this, because nobody except me has touched the bike so far. I hope it will stay like this

I had so bad experience with many of the services. Its a shame what some "mechanics" think is good work. But i guess that "Kawasaki Rama 9" is one of the better places to go. But does this help soemone who wants a really proper service? Not much it seems.

[Gregory Morozov]

Can anyone confirm if the shims can be bought separately as needed, not in sets?

Shims of different sizes at least have each it's own part number...

Edited December 10, 2012 by Gregory Morozov

[karlos]

I would much rather take my bike to Rama9 than my local dealership for simple oil changes, it's so cheap and they are competent enough to do said job.

But valve clearances, i really would insist i watch over them before they touch the top end of my bike, even if i can't i'd have to do what TongueThaied did and sit biting my nails in reception while they work on my bike.....

I really can't see my engine going pop any time soon, it's a trusty old lump that's been around a while now, i might do it myself but i would have to re-invest in alot of tools and several shim kits....

Can't put a pricve on peace of mind can you.

Just wondering how much the valve adjustment on your bike alone wasTongueThaied??

Edited December 10, 2012 by karlos

[wantan]

Can anyone confirm if the shims can be bought separately as needed, not in sets?

Shims of different sizes at least have each it's own part number...

Would be stupid to sell them as set. Use one part and throw the rest away? No, don't think so. A part with own part number should be sold seperatly.

IIRR TongueThaied wanted to buy sets to have all sizes at home when doing the job. So he doesn't have to order the parts and waiting while the bike sits around with open head...

[Gregory Morozov]

Simple oil changes: after they over-tightened the fairings bolts and broke the rubber around the nuts twice, even this simple operation I prefer to do myself now. While the fairings are out, it also gives me an opportunity to check other stuff that is usually hidden from view.

[Gregory Morozov]

BTW the aluminium washer on the oil drain plug has to be changed every oil change. Never saw them doing it by themselves, always had to ask.

[karlos]

This was Rama 9 you speak of??

Even my local Dealership changes the washer, it's part number and price is on each invoice i have

[Gregory Morozov]

No, it was Phuket dealership

[karlos]

Good, because i've heard nothing but good news about Rama 9 for the more routine services.

[loserlazer]

Yes, kawasaki did not invest on the service that much. They have still two centers in Bangkok and one is pretty small.

But they sold thousands of kawas. How/where can they service them all properly?

So, shining of their gold standards fade away naturally i guess.

Not a long time ago all was positive feedback regarding kawa service.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited December 10, 2012 by loserlazer

[JonnyF]

I think when people praise Rama 9 they are comparing them to other Thai mechanics or dealerships. They sweep the floor, they refer to part numbers, they speak a bit of English, they remember to replace the oil during an oil change, have air con, internet, fixed prices regardless of the customers race/ethnicity etc. These things are standard and totally expected in our home countries but really separates the wheat from the chaff here in LOS.

You can't compare them to European or American dealerships. Maybe we need to implement an asterisk system, kind of like " that was a great service * " where the asterisk implies that we are talking about Thai standards and not global standards?

[mania]

Can anyone confirm if the shims can be bought separately as needed, not in sets?

Shims of different sizes at least have each it's own part number...

Would be stupid to sell them as set. Use one part and throw the rest away? No, don't think so. A part with own part number should be sold seperatly.

IIRR TongueThaied wanted to buy sets to have all sizes at home when doing the job. So he doesn't have to order the parts and waiting while the bike sits around with open head...

Usually folks buy 1 set because they plan to do the future adjustments their bikes.

Things will change & different shims may be needed.

A set can vary & many companies make good sets.

You do not need a Kawasaki branded set.

Companies like Wiseco ( famous for pistons )

Or Hot Cams is another company I can think of.

The problem is some sets have only 3 of each shim.

Of course it is probably a calculated risk that all 4 valves will never be out by the same amount

at the same time.

But to be safe some sets come with 5 of each size.

Of the two examples I gave Wiseco had 3 of each & Hot Cams 5 of each I think.

Yes you can buy individually & no a part number is not what your after.

It is only the thickness you need to know & it is always stamped on the shim.

Of course you can double check with a micrometer.

They sell refills for the kit & again you would just specify what sizes you want.

This is what a kit looks like & as you can see sizes are marked on the individual shims.

They are nothing special hence no need to be branded Kawasaki/Honda etc.

As long as you can find the proper diameter for your model bike & thickness

Edited December 10, 2012 by mania

[cbrer]

You can't compare them to European or American dealerships. Maybe we need to implement an asterisk system, kind of like " that was a great service * " where the asterisk implies that we are talking about Thai standards and not global standards?

I completely agree. It's disgraceful that companies such as Kawa, Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha have either unqualified/untrained staff, or total idiots who were either unable to follow their training or couldn't be bothered to follow it because 'they know better' or whatever other reason.

Oh TIT, it's Thailand etc. is not an excuse. If they do not or cannot follow the procedures that every Kawa/Honda etc. mechanic has to follow in the Western World then they should be out the door and sent back to Somchai's corner shop.

Edited December 10, 2012 by cbrer

[wantan]

Usually folks buy 1 set because they plan to do the future adjustments their bikes.

Things will change & different shims may be needed.

A set can vary & many companies make good sets.

You do not need a Kawasaki branded set.

Companies like Wiseco ( famous for pistons )

Or Hot Cams is another company I can think of.

The problem is some sets have only 3 of each shim.

Of course it is probably a calculated risk that all 4 valves will never be out by the same amount

at the same time.

But to be safe some sets come with 5 of each size.

Of the two examples I gave Wiseco had 3 of each & Hot Cams 5 of each I think.

Yes you can buy individually & no a part number is not what your after.

It is only the thickness you need to know & it is always stamped on the shim.

Of course you can double check with a micrometer.

They sell refills for the kit & again you would just specify what sizes you want.

This is what a kit looks like & as you can see sizes are marked on the individual shims.

They are nothing special hence no need to be branded Kawasaki/Honda etc.

As long as you can find the proper diameter for your model bike & thickness

Kawasaki has part numbers for shims, e.g. listed in the Ninjette service manual. And there is also is a hint "CAUTION: Don’t use the shims for another models. This could cause wear of the valve stem end, and valve stem damage". And how to find out the diameter without having a shim to measure? I can't find the diameter either in the manual. Maybe safer to buy the original shims with part number if you are not 100% sure (like me)

But a set makes sense of course. Such a set with 5 pieces of each size would be nice. Should last a while. But expensive i guess.

[mania]

Kawasaki has part numbers for shims, e.g. listed in the Ninjette service manual. And there is also is a hint "CAUTION: Don’t use the shims for another models. This could cause wear of the valve stem end, and valve stem damage". And how to find out the diameter without having a shim to measure? I can't find the diameter either in the manual. Maybe safer to buy the original shims with part number if you are not 100% sure (like me)

But a set makes sense of course. Such a set with 5 pieces of each size would be nice. Should last a while. But expensive i guess.

Yes Kawasaki would have a part number for shims as they need to inventory.But

What I meant was if a person knew what thickness they need to bring their valve into spec

that would suffice & model of bike.

I am not sure if the caution is for Kawasaki to keep the business or a general caution maybe against using wrong diameter?

It has been awhile but I believe bikes mainly come in two diameters as far as shims

7.48 & 9.48

Most sport bikes are/were 7.48 but of course you would double check.

You would have one to check because you would check your valve clearance before you buy a suitable shim

or set.

Price wise I think in the USA a set is still about $80 or so. But it has been awhile

If your not racing or doing valve checks for friends I would think it best to just check clearance & go buy shims in the size you need to get

back to spec range. Like you I would probably just buy Kawasaki shims here in Thailand easier

Edited December 11, 2012 by mania

[TongueThaied]

As it is, going by the specs Rama measured, I'll buy some shims that are close to what I should need and do another valve inspection myself in another 12K km or so.

This is what I was thinking.

Since your good at your own wrenching &

like to do it ( I am the same way )

You did not really need to consider buying 4 full sets of shims.

Instead you could check your clearances while engine is cold.

Note what you need to get into spec & buy just those shims no?

Or do they only sell sets here?

anyway good that your able to check the work.

You are right, but for one issue for me. It is a 250 km round trip for me to get Kawa parts (if I want them immediately), and half the time they must be ordered. I normally ride the bike if I have to go for parts, and cannot if it is torn apart. I can call my Kawa dealer and have them post parts to me, if I know the part numbers (and I do have the part numbers for all the shims), but then the bike sits there torn apart while I wait for parts to come in the mail. Although I do have a truck, the bike is my primary transportation.

However, at the end of the day, you are right. I should have set aside a week or so to do this job. Once I have a shop built, this will be a more palatable option. Right now, without describing my situation, let me just say that my work area is "less than optimum."

All in all, it is sad that there is not a first rate shop anywhere in the country (that I have found).

And Gregory Morozov said he likes to do his own wrenching, "But I do not have the equipment to do the throttle sync..."

The questions that begs to be asked is: "Does any shop in Thailand have this equipment? Do they know how to use it?"

Has anybody every taken a walk through the ABS section of the shop manual? Wow, this alone is a good reason to trade the bike in every five years. Talk about complex. And I would NEVER entrust this to a shop here. Oh wait, they wouldn't repair it anyway; they would just replace every component.

[TongueThaied]

Can anyone confirm if the shims can be bought separately as needed, not in sets?

Shims of different sizes at least have each it's own part number...

Yes you can buy the shims individually. I have attached a PDF of the Kawasaki Parts Catalogue page listing them. In fact, as far as I know, they do not even sell "sets." One would just buy one of each to make a set. As I recall, the prices varied from shim to shim, but a complete set came to 1,586 baht, with the standard 10% parts discount applied.

For any interested party, I have also attached the shop manual pages for this procedure. As you can see, although it does involve tank removal, it is a little more involved than a spark plug change. Letting these Thai techs do the work unobserved made me as nervous as a whore in church. Do you suppose they applied "a thin coat of molybdenum disulfide grease to the valve lifters," as specified? Did they use a torque wrench during reassembly? I once had a Thai guy "mechanic" to me, "You farangs have to measure everything; we [Thais] don't need to do that; we can feel it." Wow, now that gave me some serious confidence, knowing that!

Kawasaki ER6 Valve Shim Part Numbers.pdf

Valve Clearance Inspection & Adjustment ER650C9F_D9F ABS Shop Manual.pdf

Edited December 11, 2012 by TongueThaied

[mania]

You are right, but for one issue for me. It is a 250 km round trip for me to get Kawa parts (if I want them immediately), and half the time they must be ordered. I normally ride the bike if I have to go for parts, and cannot if it is torn apart. I can call my Kawa dealer and have them post parts to me, if I know the part numbers (and I do have the part numbers for all the shims), but then the bike sits there torn apart while I wait for parts to come in the mail. Although I do have a truck, the bike is my primary transportation.

However, at the end of the day, you are right. I should have set aside a week or so to do this job. Once I have a shop built, this will be a more palatable option. Right now, without describing my situation, let me just say that my work area is "less than optimum."

All in all, it is sad that there is not a first rate shop anywhere in the country (that I have found).

And Gregory Morozov said he likes to do his own wrenching, "But I do not have the equipment to do the throttle sync..."

The questions that begs to be asked is: "Does any shop in Thailand have this equipment? Do they know how to use it?"

Has anybody every taken a walk through the ABS section of the shop manual? Wow, this alone is a good reason to trade the bike in every five years. Talk about complex. And I would NEVER entrust this to a shop here. Oh wait, they wouldn't repair it anyway; they would just replace every component.

Yes all VERY good points !

As much as I like wrenching I could never work on bikes here

given my current situation of living in a condo.

work space as you say is important then I would need the tools I had in the US.

I could never have a tool box like that here in a condo.

As to the throttle sync I would imagine the dealer shop has to have it & use it.

I cannot imagine they could survive without one.

That is actually another thing you would need.

Yes kind of a pain to deal with here. I guess everyone really needs to find a good

shop. I do read every so often about good ones based on readers replies.

But sad to say they are never dealerships.

[mania]

For any interested party, I have also attached the shop manual pages for this procedure. As you can see, although it does involve tank removal, it is a little more involved than a spark plug change.

Things like body work, tank etc is the least of it.

The cams also need removing if you need to change the shim as it is usually under a bucket under the cam lobe.

Edited December 11, 2012 by mania

[TongueThaied]

Just wondering how much the valve adjustment on your bike alone wasTongueThaied??

The total labor charge for everything they did (or didn't do) was 750 baht. This is why it is so damned tempting to go to the shop. For 24 bucks, I relax in an air-conditioned lounge for a few hours, don't have to get my hands greasy, and I'm good to go, right? But what kind of a deal is it if I burn and suck a valve?

I guess we can't have it both ways. Who doesn't like cheap? In the States, this job would probably have had a labor charge of $150-200, but with that, I would have peace of mind that the job had been done right. I guess you get what you pay for all the way around.

[wantan]

... Letting these Thai techs do the work unobserved made me as nervous as a whore in church. Do you suppose they applied "a thin coat of molybdenum disulfide grease to the valve lifters," as specified? Did they use a torque wrench during reassembly? I once had a Thai guy "mechanic" to me, "You farangs have to measure everything; we [Thais] don't need to do that; we can feel it." Wow, now that gave me some serious confidence, knowing that!

But one have to say that you are really a type of person who like to take things very accurate (same as me). I doubt that all western service centers work so accurate. It would be the ideal case if the job would be done 100% like described in the manual.

I know of members here around who made the same statement, that they can "feel the right torque". I am a bit sceptical about that too

The total labor charge for everything they did (or didn't do) was 750 baht. This is why it is so damned tempting to go to the shop. For 24 bucks, I relax in an air-conditioned lounge for a few hours, don't have to get my hands greasy, and I'm good to go, right? But what kind of a deal is it if I burn and suck a valve?

I guess we can't have it both ways. Who doesn't like cheap? In the States, this job would probably have had a labor charge of $150-200, but with that, I would have peace of mind that the job had been done right. I guess you get what you pay for all the way around.

I guess this is a major point in this problem with bad service. If they only charged 750Baht, what could be the benefit for the shop? A good mechanic sure gets 500Baht a day. They needed 6 hours. So its save to say they have to pay at least one mechanic for one whole day. Than costs for the shop, aircon, rental fee, ... and so on. A valve clearance adjusting is sure not a job to make money for them. Its hard for a western shop too. And if you have to replace the shims and want to do everything right you will need additional hours to do it. A Kawasaki shop in germany would take more than 150-200$ for such complete service with shim replacement i guess. And you still wouldn't be sure they did everything right, because they usually wouldn't let you watch it all the time either.

[loserlazer]

tonguethaid, we complain or not, kawa service might not be the most efficient and fastest but it is still the most reliable and reasonable in town man.

If i were you, i do not risk on going any other shop and wrenching a new tech bike is not a good idea too.

[Gregory Morozov]

Watching is not really necessary if:

The service center will let you fill the job list, in English or Thai, with the result printed for the tech in Thai with the check boxes.

After measuring the clearances they show the numbers to you, and let you decide in border cases, before assembling the whole thing back.

Any unexpected problems are shown and explained to you.

I will happily pay double the service rate if they will do it this way.

Unfortunately the unwillingness to communicate with the customer is a major problem for most Thai service companies.

[cbrer]

Unfortunately the unwillingness to communicate with the customer is a major problem for most Thai service companies.

Yeah, doing so would mean possibly having to do things correctly.

[loserlazer]

Watching is not really necessary if:

The service center will let you fill the job list, in English or Thai, with the result printed for the tech in Thai with the check boxes.

After measuring the clearances they show the numbers to you, and let you decide in border cases, before assembling the whole thing back.

Any unexpected problems are shown and explained to you.

I will happily pay double the service rate if they will do it this way.

Unfortunately the unwillingness to communicate with the customer is a major problem for most Thai service companies.

It is not about communication.

It is all about time. I am sure there is a waiting list for service and they do not spend all their time to come and ask you all the parts.

And i find it reasonable for them to not allowing customers which is a common rule for many serious mechanics back home too.

Bc if you go there, you interfere their job. What do you think guys? Want them let you measure the valves whatever in their squeezed schedule?

And i m sure they had problems with angry farang before.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect App