Should Thailand Have A Uk Welfare System?

[Travel2003]

So I guess, regardless of what we think about immigration to the countries many of us left, criss crossing borders, or general dislike of foreigners, a welfare system of the type we have in Northern Europe would not be feasible here.

[rgs2001uk]

I know of no Western country which isn't being raped by immigration except perhaps Canada and they are tight about immigration. Certainly the US is drowning supporting Mexican and S. American immigrants.

Is this true? About Canada I mean. I'm not Canadian, but from what I understand, Canada has sort of an open-door policy with respect to immigrants. In other words, they welcome them with open arms. Shortage of workers I suppose. If you've ever been to Vancouver, for example, there are tons of Chinese there.

Perhaps a real Canadian can confirm.

It was one of the preferred destinations for HK Chinese who were nervous about the return to the glorious motherland in 1997

I remember at the time pre '97 both Australia and Canada were astute enough to realise there were many HK Chinese with money who didnt relish a return to the glorious motherland, and as such visas were available for those with in excess of $100k who wished to relocate.

Time flies and the memory fades, perhaps our colonial cousins could point out if what I remember is factually correct, both countries may well have had different names for these visas.

[JUDAS]

An interesting read for those concerned with the costs of the welfare system in regards to immigrants :

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk#kp3

[Colonel_Mustard]

The cost of the welfare system in the UK is a problem, regardless if it is for natives of the country or immigrants.

Personally I'd scrap the benefit system completely for all except those genuinely unable to work (for health reasons).

Edited December 14, 2012 by Colonel_Mustard

[samran]

As for this effective tax rates nonsense for people coming off benefits, I find it incomprehensible. If I were in receipt of £1000 of benefits a month and I was offered a job for the same money I would take it. I wouldn't need any other incentive other than my personal pride and my disinclination to sponge off others.

While I don't disagree with you, and for many including myself, there are other non-monetary motives for getting off benefits and being 'out in the world' which is always good- there will always be many 'at the margin' for who the equation works in the opposite way.

Regardless of the right or wrongs and 'ceterus paribus' (that great economist caveat to everything): the economic decision of a single mother who is at that threshold may decide that being home with the kids is better than going off to work, commuting and having to stick the kids in day care (indeed in places like Australia, I somewhat suspect conservative governments may hae geared the tax system to affect that outcome).

Similarly, semi retired pensioners might find themselves in the same circumstances where working some means that their pension payments or tax rates go down dramatically.

So it isn't just the sterotypical 'front page of the Daily Mail' examples of people we are talking about here.

[dog11]

The welfare system in uk destroys a lot of youngsters especially from welfare family's. It destroys their urge to work and be productive and do something fullfilling in their lives. Its fine for pensioners or hard working people who lost their jobs for a short period .

Single mother's should be cut of if they have a second kid as its just taking the piss out of working people and cruel to the child.

The welfare system is wonderful some ways but a trap for a lot.

[transam]

The welfare system in uk destroys a lot of youngsters especially from welfare family's. It destroys their urge to work and be productive and do something fullfilling in their lives. Its fine for pensioners or hard working people who lost their jobs for a short period .

Single mother's should be cut of if they have a second kid as its just taking the piss out of working people and cruel to the child.

The welfare system is wonderful some ways but a trap for a lot.

Your right, but non native folk know exactly how to use the system. Ask Abu Hansa,. Paperwork sorted, job done.

[inthepink]

n

As for this effective tax rates nonsense for people coming off benefits, I find it incomprehensible. If I were in receipt of £1000 of benefits a month and I was offered a job for the same money I would take it. I wouldn't need any other incentive other than my personal pride and my disinclination to sponge off others.

While I don't disagree with you, and for many including myself, there are other non-monetary motives for getting off benefits and being 'out in the world' which is always good- there will always be many 'at the margin' for who the equation works in the opposite way.

Regardless of the right or wrongs and 'ceterus paribus' (that great economist caveat to everything): the economic decision of a single mother who is at that threshold may decide that being home with the kids is better than going off to work, commuting and having to stick the kids in day care (indeed in places like Australia, I somewhat suspect conservative governments may hae geared the tax system to affect that outcome).

Similarly, semi retired pensioners might find themselves in the same circumstances where working some means that their pension payments or tax rates go down dramatically.

So it isn't just the sterotypical 'front page of the Daily Mail' examples of people we are talking about here.

I'm under no illusions about that, I just find it very disappointing. If people had to rely on their family for handouts instead of the state, I don't think effective tax rates would be an issue. They would be 'strongly encouraged' to do something about their situation. I don't see an easy way to implement such a system though, if it doesn't already exist. If unemployed people in the UK were only paid benefits if their families could not support them, it would be a little unfair on those who could. I don't have any answers but I wouldn't recommend Thailand trying to follow our example.

Going back to the starting point for this thread - an inflammatory article from the Daily Mail which talked about a single mother living a 'life of luxury' on benefits. Now, she does sound like a bit of a waste of space but unless things have changed enormously since I was last in the UK, it is not possible to live a life of luxury on £766 a month for food, clothing and any leisure pursuits (which is what she would have available to spend after council tax and housing benefit were used for their intended purpose), especially not if you have two children.

The Daily Mail caters to its target audience as do most newspapers, it's just a pity there are so many people in the UK that cannot think for themselves...especially as many of them believe themselves to be superior to the natives of this country.

Edited December 14, 2012 by inthepink

[TommoPhysicist]

It seems to me that you feel hard done by with the government that you and your peers elected. We're are lucky, in the West, that we get to choose the government that we toil under, but the quid pro quo is that we get the government that we collectively choose.

SC

Until voting forms have a "No suitable applicant" choice, we in the UK don't really get to choose our government.

[inthepink]

Yes, we don't actually get to choose our government as it is normal for the winning political party to receive less than 50% of the vote. In other words, more than half of us didn't want them to form a government. The choice is severely limited too.

[inthepink]

The welfare system in uk destroys a lot of youngsters especially from welfare family's. It destroys their urge to work and be productive and do something fullfilling in their lives. Its fine for pensioners or hard working people who lost their jobs for a short period .

Single mother's should be cut of if they have a second kid as its just taking the piss out of working people and cruel to the child.

The welfare system is wonderful some ways but a trap for a lot.

Your right, but non native folk know exactly how to use the system. Ask Abu Hansa,. Paperwork sorted, job done.

Look at the link JUDAS posted if you really have an open mind. Natives in the UK are more of a drain on the welfare state than non-natives.

Do you mean Abu Hamza, the Islamist cleric by the way?

Edited December 14, 2012 by inthepink

[meatballs]

Those benefits are quite modest. In the US there is virtually no welfare state left. And as you can imagine there is a huge amount of poverty and inequality there. Be careful what you wish for.

[GuestHouse]

As Meatballs rightly says, "becareful what you wish for".

I'm reminded of the ranting and raving about immigration, again fired up by the Daily Mail but always a gaurantee of ranting responses from the same old TV anti immigrant (expats).

Something had to be done - Something was done.

The income threshold to be allowed to bring a foreign spouse to the UK was raised - The timing was near perfect, coming into force sufficiently long enough after the Baht had had regained strength against the pound for many to have finally buckled under to face their inevitable return to the UK.

Only to face those income requirements so many had been calling for.

Edited December 14, 2012 by GuestHouse

[TommoPhysicist]

The income threshold to be allowed to bring a foreign spouse to the UK was raised - The timing was near perfect, coming into force sufficiently long enough after the Baht had had regained strength against the pound for many to have finally buckled under to face their inevitable return to the UK.

Only to face those income requirements so many had been calling for.

There's heaps of money available to expat guys returning to the UK with their Thai/British kids as single parents.

Leave the Thai wife behind, and enjoy 15-20 UKP a year (assuming two children) in welfare.

[thaibeachlovers]

Unemployed in Norway get extra money during summer time, so they can go on vacation.

I remember how my Welsh brother in-law was pleasantly shocked when extra money ticked in.

I was unemployed for 3 months some years ago, and I could keep my 2-bedroom apartment, and basically continue my lifestyle.

Really didn't need to reduce any consumption of whatever.

A too good welfare system, which is open for everyone who likes to exploit it.

Then again, we can afford it.

Thailand can not.

Well I clearly didn't know the rules in the UK. I've been unemployed at times an I got £65 (3,200THB) a week in Job seekers allowance. I don't know how people could get by on that in the UK but I suppose there are many other benefits they can claim?

I know of one individual (UK, Expat) with a net worth close to £1 million. Homes in Thailand and the UK. He sent his son (born in Thaland) to study in the UK. The son then went to work in the UK and immediately asked me how to claim job seekers allowance from day one. That makes my blood boil too

You were disadvantaged in that you can't pop out sprogs. That's the way to rip off the people that actually work. Makes me really really angry.

I keep wondering when the gravy train will stop, but the west keeps borrowing money to fund the lifestyles of the thick and the lazy.

How much longer, though?

To answer the OP, NO. If it had a UK style welfare system it wouldn't be the Thailand we all know and love. The houses in Issan would be filled with unmarried mothers and the bars would be empty.

Edited December 14, 2012 by thaibeachlovers

[GuestHouse]

To answer the OP, NO. If it had a UK style welfare system it wouldn't be the Thailand we all know and love. The houses in Issan would bue filled with unmarried mothers and the bars would be empty.

At least, if nothing else, you seem ro understand the impact of a lack of welfare ..

[inthepink]

Maybe a better question would be, should the UK have a Thai welfare system? Beer bars might spring up all over Kings Cross.

@thaibeachlovers - you are all heart. We wouldn't want to discourage young Thai girls from entering the noble profession of prostitution would we? If that happened, most thaivisa members would have to stop posting, hit the gym and work on becoming pleasant well-adjusted people that were attractive to the opposite sex

Edited December 14, 2012 by inthepink

[rgs2001uk]

Maybe a better question would be, should the UK have a Thai welfare system? Beer bars might spring up all over Kings Cross.

@thaibeachlovers - you are all heart. We wouldn't want to discourage young Thai girls from entering the noble profession of prostitution would we? If that happened, most thaivisa members would have to stop posting, hit the gym and work on becoming pleasant well-adjusted people that were attractive to the opposite sex

"Beer bars might spring up all over Kings Cross"

Great idea saves many the trouble and expense of coming to Thailand to meet and marry somehow unemployable workshy girl with 3 kids in tow.

Added bonus, no need for sinsot or farang mansions to be built, no need for take care mama money, and no need to support the sick buffalo foundation.

Sounds like a win win situation, in fact you could even move into her gov't house, no need for inflated school fees either.

Game on.

[StreetCowboy]

Maybe a better question would be, should the UK have a Thai welfare system? Beer bars might spring up all over Kings Cross.

@thaibeachlovers - you are all heart. We wouldn't want to discourage young Thai girls from entering the noble profession of prostitution would we? If that happened, most thaivisa members would have to stop posting, hit the gym and work on becoming pleasant well-adjusted people that were attractive to the opposite sex

Calm down, mate, we're not that desperate. There are limits to what we would stoop to, so long as we have our hands

[AntMan1]

8 million or so arriving in 12 years is an utter joke, we haven't got the infrastructure for it or the need for them, but lefty's are intent on the destruction of England and do seem content with their work despite the fact most are against it.

http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

I wish you blokes would do a bit more reseach before throwing around numbers and scaring the natives. Or are you the natives who are easily scared?

8 million. Oh the sky is falling. 8 million. Oh those bloody darkies and gypos coming to take over our country. 8 million. I can't count

The UK population has grown by 3.991 million since the start of 2001.

Of that, the natural change (the difference between births and deaths) is about 1.8 million.

So basically, to reach the figure of 3.991million more people in the UK is that you'd need around 2.2m people new to the UK over the past 12 years.

So on a net net basis - that is 182,000 new arrivals to the UK every year.

Or for the more simple minds who I've lost to this point. Of those 8 million who arrived. Nearly 6million of them left.

So the came, worked, paid taxes into your system (or paid international rates of school fees), probably didn't claim a penny of benefit cause they weren't allowed to.

My wife and I were two of those 6 million who came and went. Got jobs straight away. Paid tax, council tax. VAT etc etc. 'No recourse to public funds was stamped in my UK Greencard when I lived there.

And of the ones who remain? No doubt most of them are working hard to fill that demographic time bomb we see below... I mean, who else is going to pay your pension and your heating allowance? You think previous governments set that money aside for you? hahahaha!

Yesterday you pointed out that most arent westerners in Thailand are on some form of temporary visa thus are effectively tourists, yet today you infer to these people as now being something else as theyre living in a foreign country .... make your mind up.

Aye, but in your quiter moments, i bet most of these people wish they could easily have Thai 'immigrant visa' instead of non-immigrant visa stamped into their passports.

But even then, they'd still refuse to be classed as a smelly immigrant. No....they are EXPATS!

Samran, i have more pressing things on my mind at the moment, i should have said 7.5million foreign born.

http://www.telegraph...-residents.html

4 million in 10 years in unsustainable, most of these are in England we are full, the infrastructure cant take it, and it is not of any benefit to any of those born here, it is for the sake of cheap labour for big business.

Your figure is the equivalent of a city the size of London every 20 years, but then you prove yourself to be not very good with numbers and a financially illiterate by saying we need all these people to pay for pensions ..... who the hell is then going to pay for the pension of all this lot, maybe let in 500k per annum to cover them. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing such brainless nonsense. And im in my 30s there will be no pension or heating allowance for me.

And as for wishing i could have Thai citizenship, i wouldn't go near the place if it wasn't for the fact my kid will be there soon.

Edited December 14, 2012 by AntMan1

[AntMan1]

The income threshold to be allowed to bring a foreign spouse to the UK was raised - The timing was near perfect, coming into force sufficiently long enough after the Baht had had regained strength against the pound for many to have finally buckled under to face their inevitable return to the UK.

Only to face those income requirements so many had been calling for.

And just think of the amount of Brits who got saved from untrustworthy Thai women, they didn't know how lucky they were.

[inthepink]

8 million or so arriving in 12 years is an utter joke, we haven't got the infrastructure for it or the need for them, but lefty's are intent on the destruction of England and do seem content with their work despite the fact most are against it.

http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

I wish you blokes would do a bit more reseach before throwing around numbers and scaring the natives. Or are you the natives who are easily scared?

8 million. Oh the sky is falling. 8 million. Oh those bloody darkies and gypos coming to take over our country. 8 million. I can't count

The UK population has grown by 3.991 million since the start of 2001.

Of that, the natural change (the difference between births and deaths) is about 1.8 million.

So basically, to reach the figure of 3.991million more people in the UK is that you'd need around 2.2m people new to the UK over the past 12 years.

So on a net net basis - that is 182,000 new arrivals to the UK every year.

Or for the more simple minds who I've lost to this point. Of those 8 million who arrived. Nearly 6million of them left.

So the came, worked, paid taxes into your system (or paid international rates of school fees), probably didn't claim a penny of benefit cause they weren't allowed to.

My wife and I were two of those 6 million who came and went. Got jobs straight away. Paid tax, council tax. VAT etc etc. 'No recourse to public funds was stamped in my UK Greencard when I lived there.

And of the ones who remain? No doubt most of them are working hard to fill that demographic time bomb we see below... I mean, who else is going to pay your pension and your heating allowance? You think previous governments set that money aside for you? hahahaha!

Yesterday you pointed out that most arent westerners in Thailand are on some form of temporary visa thus are effectively tourists, yet today you infer to these people as now being something else as theyre living in a foreign country .... make your mind up.

Aye, but in your quiter moments, i bet most of these people wish they could easily have Thai 'immigrant visa' instead of non-immigrant visa stamped into their passports.

But even then, they'd still refuse to be classed as a smelly immigrant. No....they are EXPATS!

Samran, i have more pressing things on my mind at the moment, i should have said 7.5million foreign born.

http://www.telegraph...-residents.html

4 million in 10 years in unsustainable, most of these are in England we are full, the infrastructure cant take it, and it is not of any benefit to any of those born here, it is for the sake of cheap labour for big business.

Your figure is the equivalent of a city the size of London every 20 years, but then you prove yourself to be not very good with numbers and a financially illiterate by saying we need all these people to pay for pensions ..... who the hell is then going to pay for the pension of all this lot, maybe let in 500k per annum to cover them. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing such brainless nonsense. And im in my 30s there will be no pension or heating allowance for me.

And as for wishing i could have Thai citizenship, i wouldn't go near the place if it wasn't for the fact my kid will be there soon.

Feel free not to come near Thailand, you don't sound like a very open minded person. If the natives in Britain weren't so feckless and lazy then maybe there wouldn't be such a need for fresh blood. As to who will pay the pensions of the immigrants that have arrived over the last few years, have you considered the fact that they might have children?

When I read posts like yours I thank my lucky stars that I no longer live in the UK.

According to the article you linked to, London has the highest ratio of residents born outside of the UK. Coincidentally I believe London is also responsible for 20% of the GDP of the UK and pays the highest taxes as a percentage of its own GDP...basically London is propping up the rest of the UK. Perhaps Londoners should be complaining about having to subsidise people in the north rather than immigrants?

Edited December 14, 2012 by inthepink

[farang000999]

In economist land (where I've escaped from) these are called effective tax rates. As person graduates to less welfare and more emplyement, their welfare (for instance) decreases by $2 to $3 for every dollar they earn. At the extreme - it produces what is an effective tax rate of 75% on any new income they earn.

The problem since day dot for policy makers is how do you produce an equitable safety net but avoid these high effective tax rates which discourage people from moving up the ladder.

As such, people in the story aren't scamming the system - they are making rational economic decisions. ie. If I work more, I might be handing back $3 of every $4 that I earn. Even your mild mannered conservatives understand that principal.

It isn't any secret that around these income/welfare thresholds making people move up the ladder is a challenge. But until they find a way around that - the people who are in those income/welfare brackets are going to be cheap fodder for the tabloids and the lunar right who haven't thought the issue through (though I doubt many of them have even read this far...)

Good post but the situation is actually much more extreme in the USA where because of a number of factors but specifically the dysfunctional and inefficient healthcare system, individuals and families, as shown in the graph, can literally do better by earning less. So instead of hypothetically handing back $3 for every $4 they earn they are handing back $4 for every $3 they earn. I am not against social welfare, but it needs massive reform in the USA. We are still making social security payments to billionaires despite having already spent the entirety of the money collected towards social security but any attempt at all to politically reform social security would be an admission of guilt and thus it is avoided at all costs. Most politicians won't even admit our insolvency, citing the implication that we haven't actually spent all that social security money, it was just borrowed by other departments of the government, namely, defense!

[AntMan1]

]Feel free not to come near Thailand, you don't sound like a very open minded person. If the natives in Britain weren't so feckless and lazy then maybe there wouldn't be such a need for fresh blood. As to who will pay the pensions of the immigrants that have arrived over the last few years, have you considered the fact that they might have children?

When I read posts like yours I thank my lucky stars that I no longer live in the UK.

According to the article you linked to, London has the highest ratio of residents born outside of the UK. Coincidentally I believe London is also responsible for 20% of the GDP of the UK and pays the highest taxes as a percentage of its own GDP...basically London is propping up the rest of the UK. Perhaps Londoners should be complaining about having to subsidise people in the north rather than immigrants?

If the natives are so feckless then why is there are far more advanced infrastructure and standard of living here, who built it all it did the fairies make it one winters night. I am also glad we have got rid of one bleeding heart liberal .. who will no doubt be back when in need of a handout.

The reason London has so much money is become the government is there, move the government to Ipswich then it will become extremely wealthy.

London banks needed a Trillion pound bailout (and counting) from the British taxpayer due to its corrupt banking system but lets not get this in the way of a braindead liberal rant, so effectively the rest of the UK is propping up London.

But seriously at what figure will England be full 70 million, 100 million at what point will someone who sees an open door immigration a huge problem no longer be racist.

PS You obviously arent aware of how closed minded Thais are to immigrants, keep the blinkers on.

Edited December 14, 2012 by AntMan1

[GuestHouse]

If the natives are so feckless then why is there are far more advanced infrastructure and standard of living here, who built it all it did the fairies make it one winters night.

Since you seem to have slept through history class a quick reminder might help.

The UK's infrastructure started with some shoddy roads, and some half used ports.

The canals changed all that.

The canals where built by huge numbers of imported Irish 'Navvies' - called 'Navvies' because they were building the 'Inland Navigation' system.

The canals brought the first infrastructure boost the the UK economy (Thank you to all those Irish Navvies).

The canal hey day did not last long, the railways were coming - The railway network (the back bone of Victorian Industrial Infrastructure) where again built by imported Irish workers.

And yes when the car turned up, the development of Britain's roads relied on large numbers of imported Irish workers.

[jacktrip]

I wonder how many TV members have in truth a return home to living on welfare ahead of them?!

I bet if you were ever to suffer a severe long term disability you will also head back to England expecting others to fund your existence, and please don't tell me private insurance will cover such costs as it won't

why dont you just say it, AIDS

[MiG16]

Not Thailand related. And theres already a UK pension thread pinned.

Please use that to discuss relevant points only