Chinese Herbologists

[samuibeachcomber]

am looking for a chinese doctor who prescribes chinese herbs in a liquid form primarily to treat an overloaded toxic liver.In the past i have always used western herbs such as st.mary's thistle,dandelion,slippery elm etc. but find it hard to get in thailand so i thought i'd go the way of local herbs.If anyone can i would be much appreciative.

[Tolley]

If you are in Bangkok head down to Chinatown I am sure you will find a few down there.

[samuibeachcomber]

If you are in Bangkok head down to Chinatown I am sure you will find a few down there.

yes i may have to come up to bangkok to source it.

[jrtmedic]

Forgive my ignorance but what, exactly, is an "overloaded toxic liver."?

Overloaded with what ? What are the toxins ? Is this condition fatal? or is it curable

How is this dreadful sounding condition contracted ? How is it diagnosed and by who ?

What effect do the "herbs" have ? How does one know when this condition is cured?

Which medical textbook(s) should I refer to in order to learn more?

Scientific, peer reviewed citations would be most welcome.

I don't believe this condition was anything I ever learnt about but maybe that is the result of my ageing brain!

Edited December 18, 2012 by jrtmedic

[samuibeachcomber]

jrtmedic,an overloaded toxic liver is exactly what it says and it happens when the liver has too many toxins to clear and it needs help to get rid of them through the intestines and finally the bowels.toxins are free radicals and can damage your cells.this is usually caused through the over indulgence of alcohol,fried foods and processed foods.suggest you google it to find out more.not life threatening in itself but if not treated it can cause damage to other organs.western herbs such as dandelion help to shift the toxins out of the liver,other herbs help repair the damage.hope this helps your enquiry.

[jrtmedic]

Thank you. I am still somewhat bewildered!

How does this condition present? What are the signs/symptoms? Is blood chemistry altered by this condition or maybe Liver Function Tests reveal some abnormality, if so what?

I remain unclear about how this condition is diagnosed and by who --------Is this something a GP is familiar with or does it require consultation with a Specialist?

[Tolley]

If you are in Bangkok head down to Chinatown I am sure you will find a few down there.

yes i may have to come up to bangkok to source it.

If you want to clean out the liver you can also use dandelion tea and fresh veggie juices. You cant beat fresh veggie juices. For liver detox. Many recipes on the net. You could also order livitron from mediherb this has milk thistle and very good quality and plenty of it.

[samuibeachcomber]

If you are in Bangkok head down to Chinatown I am sure you will find a few down there.

yes i may have to come up to bangkok to source it.

If you want to clean out the liver you can also use dandelion tea and fresh veggie juices. You cant beat fresh veggie juices. For liver detox. Many recipes on the net. You could also order livitron from mediherb this has milk thistle and very good quality and plenty of it.

thank you tolley.

i do juce vegies,carrot,beetroot and celery,they will cleanse the body generally but are not specific to dislodging toxins from the liver,however i will try dandelion tea.i tried milk thistle tablets,a range from blackmore's i get from boots but they did n't help.i just think i needed different herbs as well,and i find liquid form better than tablets

[samuibeachcomber]

Thank you. I am still somewhat bewildered!

How does this condition present? What are the signs/symptoms? Is blood chemistry altered by this condition or maybe Liver Function Tests reveal some abnormality, if so what?

I remain unclear about how this condition is diagnosed and by who --------Is this something a GP is familiar with or does it require consultation with a Specialist?

the signs or symptoms are usually tiredness,especially around the eyes,headaches,irritability,unable to concentrate,also a white slime develops on the tongue especially first thing in the morning,i usually scrape off with a tea spoon.I am awaiting a liquid detox to arrive from a naturopath in australia which usually does the trick and fixes my liver up,however its taking a long time to arrive and i am looking at sourcing solutions here in thailand and thought of using thai or chinese herbs

normal blood tests for liver function does n't show up anything,but an overloaded liver can lead to sluggish blood going around your body and can even poison the blood stream.do not get alarmed many people suffer these symptoms without knowing what the cause is,as i said its not life threatennig but does need to be treated.

my liver is not strong,as a kid i had juandice which leaves the liver weakened.

[jrtmedic]

I have spent some time interrogating scientific/medical databases for references to "overloaded toxic liver" and guess what I have come up with ZERO results. Absolutly no results!!

I can find references to sustances which are hepatotoxic for example Paracetamol (Acetaminaphen for Americans) and Death Cap mushrooms. In some cases of hepatotoxicity there are treatments avialable which if utilised in a timley manner may result in a life being saved. Non of the available treatments involve "herbs" Chinese or otherwise !

Turning to the internet in the form of "Dr Google" produces many pages of "alternative advise" which in the generality seeks to persuade vunerable (gullable?) people of the value of "de-toxing" their livers, kidneys and colons using various "herbal" concoctions. Here is an an example http://www.thelifetr...om/detoxify.htm.

Let me state unequivocally that there is absoluty no scientific evidence which supports the use of these products.

If the websites offering "detox" therapies are examined closley they all contain a disclaimer along the following lines

" Nothing contained on this site is meant to infer or state that the products are for the treatment of any disease or ailment. Always consult with your physician if you experience any medical problems."

Individuals are. of course, free to believe in whatever they wish. They are also free to spend their often hard earnt cash on "quack" products. I am quite comfortable with this as long as people are exercising their rights from a fully informed position

Edited December 18, 2012 by jrtmedic

[samuibeachcomber]

Oh dear a doctor who knows it all.bye bye!

[Tolley]

Oh dear a doctor who knows it all.bye bye!

He must be right because he says so.

[shimizu]

Of course, there is no such thing as an "overloaded toxic liver" other than in the mind of the OP,

but the detox industry will insist otherwise, as they profit from his needs.

A herbologist then gladly treats him with an anti-toxic mix, and the OP is cured and happy.

Edited December 18, 2012 by shimizu

[Tolley]

Of course, there is no such thing as an "overloaded toxic liver" other than in the mind of the OP,

but the detox industry will insist otherwise, as they profit from his needs.

A herbologist then gladly treats him with an anti-toxic mix, and the OP is cured and happy.

Heavy drinkers, people who have taken a lot of presciption meds, people who have had hepatitis etc would all benefit from taking things like milk thistle, dandelion, fresh veggie juices because of course their liver function would be impaired. It aint rocket science is it?

And whilst the liver will regenerate itself given optimal conditions you can fast track the process with many herbal products.

[shimizu]

Unfortunately, it is rocket science.

A review examining studies with a double-blind protocol concluded that milk thistle and its derivatives has no significant effect on mortality or course of disease in individuals with alcoholic and/or hepatitis B or C disease.Toxin-induced liver damage. (Wiki)

Thereare are a lot of tales, and not much evidence to support those claims, but a healthy life style, plenty of plain water, and fresh food helps.

Edited December 18, 2012 by shimizu

[Tolley]

Unfortunately, it is rocket science.

A review examining studies with a double-blind protocol concluded that milk thistle and its derivatives has no significant effect on mortality or course of disease in individuals with alcoholic and/or hepatitis B or C disease.Toxin-induced liver damage. (Wiki)

Thereare are a lot of tales, and not much evidence to support those claims, but a healthy life style, plenty of plain water, and fresh food helps.

Not sure where you get your research from but plenty of research show there are benefits. I wont bore you with posting links but a simple google and you wil find plenty.

I have used it and it worked well for me. I guess you have never tried it or used it?

[Tolley]

From the Mayo clinic:

Cirrhosis

Multiple studies from Europe suggest benefits of oral milk thistle for cirrhosis. In experiments up to five years long, milk thistle has improved liver function and decreased the number of deaths that occur in cirrhotic patients. Although these results are promising, most studies have been poorly designed. Better research is necessary before a strong recommendation can be made. B

Liver disease (chronic)

Several studies of oral milk thistle for hepatitis caused by viruses or alcohol report improvements in liver tests. However, most studies have been small and poorly designed. More research is needed before a strong recommendation can be made.

[samuibeachcomber]

I began this topic purely and simply to find out if anyone knew of a chinese herbalist and not really to discuss the merits or demerits of alternative medicine.

thank you tolley for your contribution.

[jrtmedic]

Tolley

I note you are keen to quote "research" which seems to support your beliefs.

It is usual to quote the source of information and what you read below can be found here :- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15551246

Please read the conclusions. Where the reseachers talk about "further reseach" they are using a polite academic form of English which most non- academics fail to understand. Personally I very much doubt any real scientist will be interested to follow this up.

"Use of herbal supplements for chronic liver disease.

Levy C, Seeff LD, Lindor KD.

Source

Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, Mayo Clinic Rochester, Minnesota 55905, USA.

Abstract

BACKGROUND & AIMS:

Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) is becoming popular among patients with liver disease. Although there is a growing body of evidence regarding potential mechanisms of action of these and other herbs, caution must be used to interpret the results of the few clinical trials available. Our goal was to discuss the biologic rationale for the use of specific herbs (silymarin, glycyrrhizin, sho-saiko-to, Phyllanthus amarus , Picrorrhiza kurroa , Compound 861, CH-100, and LIV.52) in the treatment of chronic liver diseases, as well as the evidence for their efficacy and adverse effects according to clinical trials.

METHODS:

Because of the relative paucity of clinical studies using herbs, every trial published in English was reviewed.

RESULTS:

Although many trials suggest that these herbs can decrease serum transaminase levels, the effects on hepatic histopathology and long-term survival are either poorly studied or conflicting. LIV.52 has been withdrawn from the market because of deleterious effects in patients with liver disease.

CONCLUSIONS:

Based on current evidence, we cannot recommend the use of herbal supplements for the routine treatment of any chronic liver disease and further well-designed clinical trials are necessary."

PMID: 15551246 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Tolley]

You continue to believe what you want to believe but the facts remain many thousands of people use milk thistle and get the benefits of it.

There have been enough trials already to suggest there are significant benefits for people with liver issues taking milk thistle.

If you want to wait around for the sort of tests that pharmarceutical companies do then it aint going to happen becasue there is no money in it.

[Mangosteen1]

Does anybody know about eating,drinking herbs/vegetables or something to strengthen your legs. Ive heard about lemon-grass. anything else?

[dominique355]

Oh dear a doctor who knows it all.bye bye!

Samuibeachcomber, do you believe in magic?

Looks like we have classic argument between a rational thinking scientist and an irrational believer into magic and "alternative" medicine.

PS: "Alternative medicine" is defined as medicine for which there is no scientific proof.

Whatever treatment you take, first have a proper diagnosis.

[robblok]

Does anybody know about eating,drinking herbs/vegetables or something to strengthen your legs. Ive heard about lemon-grass. anything else?

How about doing some squats they strengthen your legs.. its an exercise not a vegetable.

[rak sa_ngop]

I began this topic purely and simply to find out if anyone knew of a chinese herbalist and not really to discuss the merits or demerits of alternative medicine.

thank you tolley for your contribution.

There is a Chinese clinic in the St Louis Hospital on Sathorn Road (opp Surasak BTS)

I have used it for acupuncture. I believe they also can prescribe many herbal medicines as well but maybe somebody else can confirm.