Being Ethical In Your Transactional Relationships

[BigJohnnyBKK]

This topic is based on the control freak thread, but I want it to focus more on the goal of being fair in one's relationships rather than on examples of obvious abuse.

I'd like to define the parameters of the discussion as follows, and would greatly appreciate those of you disagreeing strongly about the underlying premises and assumptions laid out here, to refrain from expressing your moral outrage at them - please try, the best you can, to contribute constructively within them.

Here is the assumed scenario to give the discussion some context - superficial variations are of course OK, but if you require a fundamentally different "alternative reality", then please start your own thread.

• Older NES foreign male, perhaps physically unattractive, primarily motivated to obtain brilliant sex and a rudimentary level of companionship. Not wealthy by developed-nation standards but intelligent and hardworking, reasonable future prospects and generally tries to do the right thing from an ethics POV. Speaks enough Thai to get by, strives to continually improve. (Note this obviously could be a relatively wealthy Asian female, but for the sake of simplicity will refer to this role as "the farang" - and *please* I beg you don't discuss the use of that term in this thread)
  

• Young, beautiful, but uneducated and poor upcountry peasant Thai girls, motivated to obtain a more secure financial future, but ideally both her and her family are reasonable and realistic, not expecting to "get rich quick". Intelligent and ambitious but little or no English, no significant previous experience with foreigners and absolutely no involvement in the sex industry. (And once again no PC terminology kerfuffle please, could be a male, but for simplicity, let's refer to this role as "girls" or "the girlfriend")
  

• Both are aware, even if it isn't explicitly discussed, that this is, at least in the early stages, primarily a transactional relationship, and that he is the senior/ patron/ sponsor and she is the junior/ service provider. They agree from the start that there is no an exclusive commitment on either side, and that either party may terminate the relationship at any time. These very important factors imply the following guidelines:
  

Please don't bother expressing moral outrage at this scenario, even if you think it borders on what you might label "prostitution", nor giving the obvious mainstream/PC advice on "healthy successful" relationships wrt the importance of traditional prerequisites such as:

• romantic love (as in "falling in")
  
• life-long commitment, monogamy etc
  
• similar age or cultural/class/economic/educational backgrounds
  
• full sharing in a partnership of equals, complete trust in the other
  
• intellectual stimulation, deep and meaningful communications
  

I'm not saying some of these aren't valuable goals, even possible outcomes of such a relationship long-term, just want for clarity to eliminate them from the discussion about the early stages, say the first few years.

Also, please restrict the topic to hypothetical general discussion of practical principles, rather than degenerating into any contributor's personal details, specific how-to information, discussion of actual compensation levels etc.

So, the fundamental question should be, given the above

What sort of guidelines would help the farang in his relations with his girlfriend, balancing his desire to be fair and reasonable with the obvious need to be careful to protect his personal financial security?

If your answer is simply "the above scenario is inherently abusive" then feel free to express that briefly, but I'll point out in advance that many jobs entered into voluntarily by normal people in all our societies could also be called such, and many would say our entire system of work and economic rewards in human society is, to some extent, based on exploitation - but again, I'd like to avoid turning this thread into a discussion of that particular sub-topic.

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As a relatively trivial example from the control freak thread, just to get things started at a "ground floor brass tacks" level:

I personally don't find tattoos or body-piercing, nor the obvious use of makeup, big-eye contacts, false eyelashes, etc to be at all attractive; I generally prefer prefer normal eyes and relatively natural eyebrows, long, straight natural colored hair and low-key, casual clothing - as opposed to what passes for mainstream fashion in Thailand these days.

Now I would let my girlfriend "theng dtua" however she likes in those ways that are temporary, such as clothing, makeup, contacts, etc when she goes out without me - which obviously she is free to do, the proportion of time per day/week/year depending on the details of our arrangement, whether it's a live-in relationship or not, etc.

However I consider it reasonable to tell her that I prefer her not to get all done up like that when she's spending time with me, and that getting a tattoo or even dyeing her hair would be a strong negative in my ongoing weighing of the costs vs benefits of the relationship. I'm not necessarily going to turf her out just for that if she's performing well in other, more important areas, but I definitely make my wishes clear in this area.

And of course, if she feels strongly about her need to express her individuality that way, she's free to do what she likes, including heading out the door to find another boyfriend/sponsor.

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Looking forward to a constructive discussion, and of course, happy holidays to all (even the haters), may you have a New Year that is more successful and prosperous than your 2012 was, as well as (most importantly) bringing you an appropriate mix of joy, excitement and peace of mind along with the inevitable challenges.

Edited December 24, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[NanLaew]

Be totally, brutally honest with YOURSELF and see the relationship for what it is NOW and don't get carried away with what you want it to be in the future. That aspect is for your partner to dream about.

Do keep your own, separate living space; don't move your partner in too fast and don't give them a key either. That's for the 'next step' if it ever happens. You need your private space more than she does. Consider it as standing back and being able to see the wood from the trees, etc.

Don't include the financial well-being of your potential partners relatives in your calculations and don't feel obliged to add them after the fact, even if the relationship deepens or you meet the outlaws and they seem quite a decent bunch.

Don't think with the little head, ever.

Don't bother reading 'Private Dancer' either. It's someone else's fantasy and you are working on defining your own reality.

Get a copy of 'Thailand Fever'. It's not a foolproof reference or guide by any means but there's some 'universals' in there. Whether you want your partner to read it and share is 'up to you'.

Don't overpay; do some market research (this applies to weekly/monthly stipends and/or allowances in lieu of services rendered as well as other 'essentials' such as motor bikes, fridges, etc..

Gold is NOT an essential purchase by any stretch of the imagination.

Define your budget from the get go.

Learn the language but don't indicate that you understand everything being said.

Be aware of the cultural differences THAT ARE IMPORTANT and discount the ones that don't apply. Somehow learn to tell the difference between them but don't rely only on your partner for the definitive answers.

Keep personal bank accounts separate but do set up a 'mutual' account giving you primary control. It's a 'training wheels' exercise for both of you.

Find out if your partner already has a bank account. This helps you define your partners needs or otherwise; if she only pulls 5000 baht/month from the account and still manages to get a new phone, regular shopping trips and nights out with her friends, she may (probably has) alternate revenue streams.

Keep an open mind and avoid the narrow ones.

Be honest when seeking advice but chose wisely on whom you seek advice from.

Edited December 24, 2012 by NanLaew

[NeverSure]

Kelly, someone tried to verbally kick my ass in another thread for saying that girls are "poor and available" I believe it was. Maybe since TIT it will be accepted.

Both times I was in LOS for 90 days and lived in Chiang Mai, I had essentially those kinds of "transactions." In my case the girls knew I was leaving up front.

The short answer to your question for me is that I felt it was win-win if you'll pardon the overused expression. She and I both knew what the deal was. She got a much nicer life for a few weeks and things she couldn't otherwise afford. She got to learn a lot about Westerners. In one case I gave the gal a new scooter when I left because she had treated me like a king.

I in turn had beautiful young partners for the time, and a great deal of enjoyment. It was in fact honest with no hard feelings on either side.

To each his own IMHO.

[rgs2001uk]

Just do what a Thai would do, put the girl into a 3,000 baht per month condo, in her name all you do is pay the rent.

From the outset define what you expect from her and what she can expect in return.

Give her 15k per month allowance, when you get bored or she doesnt live up to expectations move on with no hard feelings on either side.

[Hedghog]

Recently separated from my girlfriend,no specific problems.

I now rent a house (one of her properties ) next door to her own house.

She owns 3 properties and many rai of paddy land,not hi so,but educated well enough.

Whilst together never had a problem over money.

I'm not rich not poor,but could sustain myself back home for the rest of my days in comfort,

but chose to come to Thailand.

Life is what it is.

Not everyone can sustain a good relationship anywhere,no matter what,circumstances change day by day.

You meet the right partner or you don't, worldwide.

My ex Thai partner has remained a very good friend,no animosity,no axe to grind,etc.

My Thai partner and I came to the end of the road,as did a previous relationship in Farangland,

no regrets move on.

[GuestHouse]

It seems the OP has no jnderstanding of Ethics and is labouring under the misguided belief that he can control the personal and emotional aspects of a relationship with list of rules and caveats.

I suggest pressing restart and going back to the fundemental ethical questions surrounding the the transaction.

[Hedghog]

Maybe some folk should take a steep back and judge themselves,before other.

Regarding failed relationships.

Is it always the other person fault.

Doubt it very much.

Only fools rush in,spring to mind.

[Swiss1960]

It seems the OP has no jnderstanding of Ethics and is labouring under the misguided belief that he can control the personal and emotional aspects of a relationship with list of rules and caveats.

I suggest pressing restart and going back to the fundemental ethical questions surrounding the the transaction.

Completely agree with you. OP: you write

Both are aware, ... that this is ... primarily a transactional relationship.... They agree from the start that there is not an exclusive commitment on either side, and that either party may terminate the relationship at any time.

Based on that, why do you think that you have ANY right at all to tell your “service provider” with whom she can sleep around or what kind of clothes she will wear when she goes out when you are not around? Does your “service provider” have the same right to tell YOU what to do and what not do do?

Why should your "service provider" not be allowed to offer the services to other "sponsors" in any way she likes, as you clearly told her that you will drop her in an eyes blink when you feel to do so...

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Thanks to all for the replies, especially NanLaew's well thought-out and thorough response, but in general a great calm and rational tone, and acknowledgment of "live and let live".

@GuestHouse, my goal here isn't the "output" of a list of rules, but going through the process of thoughtful discussion, ideally within the context which I outlined in the OP. I'd be happy to have the "more fundamental" discussion regarding the ethics (or lack thereof) of those premises as you suggest, but perhaps we could put that off for another thread sometime?

Back on topic, I'd like to encourage a more specific focus on two areas - one is the "control freak" issues raised in that thread but set within this one's context. I started that POV with the relatively trivial example of personal appearance issues, but I'm sure there are others that some might consider more or less problematic from an ethical POV.

The other area is, rather than focusing on the more usual side of making sure that we (farang guys) get what we want from the girls, and protecting ourselves from being scammed, how about putting some more thought into how we can help give the girls something of real value to help them with their higher-level goals?

It may seem a bit patronizing - feminists love "patriarchical" - but IMO you are ideally more a "patron" - mentor, sponsor - than just an ATM. And if your GF seems open to learning and personal growth, I see helping her that way as being of much more long-term benefit to her rather than simply handing over cash - whatever amount per time period, and as I said I don't want the thread to get into that level of detail.

Consider the fact that her real goal is to have a better future, more stable financial security down the road both for herself and her family. That's a pretty nebulous and much more difficult objective than the guy's, which in this case is simply short-term pleasure and a bit of company, pretty much guaranteed to be satisfied.

Given the fact that the guy is older, better educated and more experienced, it shouldn't really take that much time and energy to help the girl achieve some day-to-day progress in growing as a person, fulfilling her potential and discovering what she's capable of achieving in life, over and above her current but inevitably temporary "persona" of playing the pretty little sex toy.

And by investing that bit of time and energy on an ongoing basis, you may well be "upgrading" the quality of your relationship, increasing the levels of trust and intimacy that may well boost the odds of it working out to last a bit longer and grow into something more than what it's started out as.

Edited December 24, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[BigJohnnyBKK]

OP: you write

Both are aware, ... that this is ... primarily a transactional relationship.... They agree from the start that there is not an exclusive commitment on either side, and that either party may terminate the relationship at any time.

Based on that, why do you think that you have ANY right at all to tell your “service provider” with whom she can sleep around or what kind of clothes she will wear when she goes out when you are not around? Does your “service provider” have the same right to tell YOU what to do and what not do do?

Why should your "service provider" not be allowed to offer the services to other "sponsors" in any way she likes, as you clearly told her that you will drop her in an eyes blink when you feel to do so...

Actually I very specifically stated that she is free to look however she likes when she isn't with me.

Yes, my clients and employers do have specific expectations around my appearance to be appropriate to how they've defined my roles and functions.

I made no mention of her sleeping around other than it's already been agreed to in advance in the OP, but since that's a degree of freedom that many traditionalists would consider excessive, rather than too high a degree of control, it is probably best IMO to set that relatively irrelevant detail aside at the moment.

Edit: I just realized the typo that may have led to one of the misunderstandings, corrected below:

They agree from the start that there is no exclusive commitment on either side, and that either party may terminate the relationship at any time.

Edited December 24, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[GuestHouse]

Here's your dilema.

Both are aware, even if it isn't explicitly discussed, that this is, at least in the early stages, primarily a transactional relationship, and that he is the senior/ patron/ sponsor and she is the junior/ service provider.

Having bought a 'service' you set parrameters for the extent of the 'relationship' but accept that the 'relationship' will change.

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Hence my suggestion at above that you revisit the ethical questions surrounding the initial transaction.

[CMTourist]

After readying the first post my first question is whether ethics dictate that the OP pays for the girl to have a lawyer to ensure she understands all the terms and conditions of entering a relationship with the OP?

The second is whether you are absolutely nuts or have simply never been with a woman of any nationality? You can set whatever rules you want and she'll agree with them right up to the point that she doesn't any more. Then she'll ignore them and you'll be the bad guy if you try to get her to follow them.

[CMTourist]

Here's your dilema.

Both are aware, even if it isn't explicitly discussed, that this is, at least in the early stages, primarily a transactional relationship, and that he is the senior/ patron/ sponsor and she is the junior/ service provider.

Having bought a 'service' you set parrameters for the extent of the 'relationship' but accept that the 'relationship' will change.

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Hence my suggestion at above that you revisit the ethical questions surrounding the initial transaction.

Very good point.

The OP is predicting an emotional relationship but is attempting to control the ramifications of that by establishing rules based on a physical relatioship only. In effect he wants the benefits of a genuine relationship while still having the freedom and fliexibility of a purely physical one.

He isn't the first guy in history who's wanted this and the ethical aspects (at least from a woman's point of view) are pretty well decided.

[rgs2001uk]

Here's your dilema.

Both are aware, even if it isn't explicitly discussed, that this is, at least in the early stages, primarily a transactional relationship, and that he is the senior/ patron/ sponsor and she is the junior/ service provider.

Having bought a 'service' you set parrameters for the extent of the 'relationship' but accept that the 'relationship' will change.

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Hence my suggestion at above that you revisit the ethical questions surrounding the initial transaction.

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Dont think the OP bought or paid for anything.

Isnt this the infamous finishing school for hookers the OP mentioned in a previous post, and was rightly slammed,

Since then he has kept his head down and licked his wounds.

The emotional relationship, is probably on the part of the girl, for the OP its more like boredom as he seeks new conquests.

For the OP, next time accompany the girl back to her province and discuss the details with the girls parents, I feel sure it will lead to big face in the village, farang outsmarts uneducated, unworldly, unsophisticated, naive village girl.

[mjj]

The op's scenario may hit a few nerves with some, but is it really different in the West? Find me a fat, ugly 50 year old millionaire and I bet his other half would be out of his league if he had a normal income. Yes, the financial parameters have changed, but have the financial dynamics of the relationship?

All relationships are fine by me as long as there is no deceit. If everyone is honest and makes their own choices, but who am I to judge?

[TommoPhysicist]

Most of the Thai females I have met would consider the relationship 'committed and exclusive' on the male's part after 3 social meetings. No matter what the basis for those three social meetings were.

As for educational levels, all the women in my family are heading towards degree level.

And as CMT says, good luck getting any woman to keep to any agreement.

Edited December 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[NanLaew]

Most of the Thai females I have met would consider the relationship 'committed and exclusive' on the male's part after 3 social meetings. No matter what the basis for those three social meetings were.

As for educational levels, all the women in my family are heading towards degree level.

And as CMT says, good luck getting any woman to keep to any agreement.

On another, more indiscreet and p4p focused forum, there's an oft-stated parameter of Thai girl 'dating' that is passed from seasoned mongers to newbies and that is to never shag any individual girl more than 3 times. More than that and it is considered a relationship.

Amazing that the cultural differences between Thai women and farang blokes come up with the same magic number eh?

Edited December 24, 2012 by NanLaew

[thaibeachlovers]

It seems the OP has no jnderstanding of Ethics and is labouring under the misguided belief that he can control the personal and emotional aspects of a relationship with list of rules and caveats.

I suggest pressing restart and going back to the fundemental ethical questions surrounding the the transaction.

Completely agree with you. OP: you write

Both are aware, ... that this is ... primarily a transactional relationship.... They agree from the start that there is not an exclusive commitment on either side, and that either party may terminate the relationship at any time.

Based on that, why do you think that you have ANY right at all to tell your “service provider” with whom she can sleep around or what kind of clothes she will wear when she goes out when you are not around? Does your “service provider” have the same right to tell YOU what to do and what not do do?

Why should your "service provider" not be allowed to offer the services to other "sponsors" in any way she likes, as you clearly told her that you will drop her in an eyes blink when you feel to do so...

In a relationship which is not based on "love" or "commitment", He who pays has the right to tell his employee what the rules are, and if the the employee does not agree, they have the right to look for another employer.

Too many people confuse sex with "love". It's not, it's just a physical act between two animals that in humans is often, but not always enjoyable.

[Scully]

What one man thinks is ethical another man may have total opposite beliefs. You can only judge what is ethical by your own life experiences so I suggest living in a poor area for a few years as it may open your eyes.

These "up country girls" do have opportunities whether it be cooking food for the market or pumping petrol at a station. The choice lies at the feet of the girl in my opinion, if she is getting a better life with more positives than negatives then she will be happy.

My problem with these types of relationships is when a poor girls family force their beautiful young daughter out to bag their fortune. I seem to recall the op saying family seek out his services for their daughter, this is ethically wrong as it should be the girls choice.

We all know too well parental pressure in Thailand.

[rene123]

From a woman's point of view, I believe NanLaew's well thought out reply is pretty much spot on. You can only help people help themselves. If they choose not to learn from it then you have to set them free. I fully agree with a financial agreement that is mutually satisfactory to both parties, but it shouldn't be too much. Everyone has a different size bank account but there is such a thing as reasonable depending on where you live. For example, it is much more expensive living in Bangkok than some village in Issan. I'm not one for showing off wealth as a form of status. Unfortunately, many (most ?) Thais are. I've seen many Thais get themselves into debt for no other reason than to show off to friends and family. I certainly would not finance any of that sillyness. I know many Thais can survive very well on 6000 baht a month. I think everyone of a youngish age (20 to 50) should have some means of self support (work) for no other reason than to gain personal satisfaction. That holds true in any country. The wealthy Canadian aquaintances I knew as a youngster grew up to be self focused prima donnas who thought they deserved everything handed to them. Every one of them was shallow and self centered.

[NanLaew]

Is this about the mentor/sponsor keeping some level of emotional distance while claiming earnestly to have a longer-term interest in making a better life for the interim intern/trophy girlfriend....? Personally speaking as probably the original, truly handsome man, it was always a tough sell, almost impossible to be honest. The 3-date parameter I mentioned earlier never applied to me. They fell head over heels on the first liaison. This wasn't restricted to Thailand either. Just after I graduated, a girlfriend in Scotland quit her job as an air hostess so we could spend more time together... then I left to work in Australia alone. I had a girlfriend in the US that bought me a full-length, designer, suede leather winter coat for my birthday. This after dating for only about 4 months. I found out later it cost her over $1100 bucks and she was just a student. She worshipped the ground I walked on, did everything I asked which included once delivering a pizza to my apartment butt naked. A few weeks later, she found me in bed with another girl (remember my admonition about giving girlfriends keys to your gaff?) and vowed that we were done, finished. After a couple of weeks while I was away working in Singapore, she asked if she could meet me at the airport.... and we shagged in the parking garage. The 'other girl', who was a workplace conquest btw, also swore off me as two-timing low-life which was pretty undeniable. She took about 6 weeks to come back to my bed but she knew by then that she was never going to be exclusive. When I quit my job, I left the US and never spoke with her for over 4 years. After she re-established contact (d*mn you Facebook!!!), she still regards me as her only love and is naming her first-born (in vitro) after me. Now just how sick is that? Her problem was she bored me easily and was quite frankly a lousy lay.

Now I am much, much older and on my second marriage, like the OP, I would consider that these and all the other young ladies in my life benefited somehow from my 'mentoring' and 'benevolence' and have grown stronger and moved onto successful relationships with their eventual soul mates. This includes the dozen or so, 'meaningful' relationships I had here in Thailand (transactional and otherwise) when I was in my late twenties through late thirties. The truth is possibly, more probably the opposite but the OP should carry on and play the Svengali while he has the natural vitality... and before the hairs on his balls grow white.

Edited December 24, 2012 by NanLaew

[HardenedSoul]

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Dont think the OP bought or paid for anything.

Isnt this the infamous finishing school for hookers the OP mentioned in a previous post, and was rightly slammed,

I believe it is

[tingtongtourist]

Big Johnny..IMO this scenario is nothing new and just because you, as the farang is doing it is no big deal really.

Thai guys have been doing this sort of thing forever, the difference is,and the point be...they dont want the girl hanging around fulltime. Of course if the guy is married they cannot be hanging around all the time anyway!

Farang guy like us think we are so special to do this? why?

My last appartment i lived in with Ex GF, she did get to know another thai girl living in same appartment, who once did work in a local massage house.

Some Asian, (i think malay?) older guy gets a massage from this girl, (lot younger..him 60s she 30s)

Well, this guy did pull her from the massage place she worked at, put her in our apartment building (room is around 8k a month) which he pay for her to live every month.

On top of this, he will give her 10,000 a month to play with how she want.

He will then visit her in that appartment maybe no more than av. 5-6 times a month, (is what she tells my GF anyway)

He has the opinion that he does not like her to work in that same massage place, so now she change to work in cleaner style massage place in big shopping centre.

Thai way is to say..UP TO YOU

If you find something good for both party and come to an arrangement then good luck to both.

Problem here is farang get online talking about prostitutes ect, they dont know what they are talking about..not a jot!...dont worry about them fools!!!!

You will see them here criticise some guy because he give a GF maybe 3 or 5,000 baht a month, and call her prostitute.

Truth is this kind of farang is just jealous, because he havent even got a pot to piss into, and sad and sorry cause he cant afford to give a girl anything!!!!!

.

[Thailand2012]

Here's your dilema.

Both are aware, even if it isn't explicitly discussed, that this is, at least in the early stages, primarily a transactional relationship, and that he is the senior/ patron/ sponsor and she is the junior/ service provider.

Having bought a 'service' you set parrameters for the extent of the 'relationship' but accept that the 'relationship' will change.

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Hence my suggestion at above that you revisit the ethical questions surrounding the initial transaction.

You bought a physical transaction but know that you will wind up with an emotional relationship.

Dont think the OP bought or paid for anything.

Isnt this the infamous finishing school for hookers the OP mentioned in a previous post, and was rightly slammed,

Since then he has kept his head down and licked his wounds.

The emotional relationship, is probably on the part of the girl, for the OP its more like boredom as he seeks new conquests.

For the OP, next time accompany the girl back to her province and discuss the details with the girls parents, I feel sure it will lead to big face in the village, farang outsmarts uneducated, unworldly, unsophisticated, naive village girl.

no he got suspended and I wouldn't pay to any respect to he's opinion on ethics.

[Semper]

Hi Big Johnny.

The length of your op should even make theblether envious.

[endure]

18) Not to discuss the specifics of prostitution.Thailand has a visible sex industry, and acknowledgment of that fact is not forbidden. However ThaiVisa is not the place to seek or give information on this topic, regardless of your sexual habits, preferences or orientation.